Keratene Alphaactive Retard RESULTS

[tdo]

I am not sure about Ryan's blood test so I cant really comment on that, but I am sorry to say Julio, something is really off with your blood test. I am surprised only one other person mentioned it before...

There is no way SP would increase your blood DHT by over 35% of baseline. That is a HUGE increase. Also there is no theory that states SP only affects DHT in the hair follicles... Even if it was true that SP only effects DHT at the hair follicles, there is NO way that it would increase blood DHT levels by 35%+.

We are not talking about a few percentage difference here we are talking 35%!

Just think about it......

[Ibrium]

According to one theory of Saw palmetto is that with their use there is a reduction in the levels of DHT in the follicle and not in the blood. Thinking this way, it is entirely feasible to use the saw palmetto, there is an increase in DHT blood because there is more left in the DHT system as DHT in the follicles would be smaller. If there is less DHT in the follicles, automatically "be left" more DHT in the blood, simple.

Except there isn't really any evidence that saw palmetto reduces DHT in the follicles. Only that it does so in the prostate. So yeah, I don't think this is happening.

And as has been pointed out, Saw Palmetto is a 5ar inhibitor, so it should increase testosterone, not DHT.

(Yes, this is one of the theories of Saw Palmetto. And if this theory is not correct, I can say that saw palmetto does not work for nothing, because in two months I took 320mg of Saw Palmetto and did 2 blood tests to test its efficiency, my DHT had a considerable increase. See it at my exams.

And as myself and others have said repeatedly, that increase could also be accounted to a combination of natural fluctuations and the fairly large margin of error in the test. I've had bigger changes in DHT than that while taking fin.

Ibrium, everyone here has an opinion and I respect that, but to me it makes no sense when you say Kératene only have effect in people with high DHT. This is because in the actual instruction manual of Kératene there is a dosage for various levels of DHT, including levels below 750pg/ml, so this theory that Kératene only work in individuals with high DHT is not correct .

That's a pretty big assumption. The study they've done (assuming it hasn't been manipulated and those are real results) was only in people with high DHT. Just because they say you can take a lower dose for lower DHT levels, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work. Or it may work in some people and not others. (I'm not sure what dose you were taking.)

I'm far more interested in seeing visible results than all this. I want to know if people who take Keratene for several months see any recovery in their hair. And that's still pretty unclear.

[Ibrium]

look,

I'm not saying that this product is a snake oil, I'm just saying it's not 100% effective, because it did not work for 2 users on this forum (they did blood tests), what is the probability of effectiveness?

That's not how statistics work. We don't know what the probability of effectiveness is at all and we can't infer anything from two people - especially with so many unknown factors.

Quite often, there are big differences between how a drug or supplement is taken in a trial and how it ends up being taken in reality. The circumstances of the trial are a lot more controlled: they can make absolutely sure that the treatment is taken exactly the way that will maximise its effectiveness, there are no missed contraindications, no inconsistencies in how and when results are measured, and that the information they include in the final study is ultimately what will make them look as good as possible.

I do not believe that the company has rigged the results or something, but there was insufficient research on the functionality of the product.

Welcome to medicine, and particularly any natural medicine. Research is expensive. A study that's not FDA-approved is unlikely to even be close to airtight. And FDA studies cost money that only large drug companies have.

Nobody except the company selling Keratene has any interest in doing a trial. And Keratene, similarly to any supplement manufacturer, has little motivation to be that rigorous, because then they have to start selling it as a drug. (Though I'm not sure exactly how things work when they're selling from Europe.)

I'm not commenting any more on the blood test thing because we're just repeating ourselves and going in circles. It's hard to know anything definitively about whether the blood tests are accurate or not. This is why I care more about people who have taken it for a few months and can see if it's working.

[ajays]

Related to the comment in bold, I had posted a link before...see below.

saw this following link update provided by Bart from prohairclinic. He seems to be a professional rep working for a professional HT clinic. If this doesn't convince you to at least try this product, I don't know what else will.

http://www.hairlossexperiences.com/view_topic.php?id=4154&forum_id=6

Except there isn't really any evidence that saw palmetto reduces DHT in the follicles. Only that it does so in the prostate. So yeah, I don't think this is happening.

And as has been pointed out, Saw Palmetto is a 5ar inhibitor, so it should increase testosterone, not DHT.



And as myself and others have said repeatedly, that increase could also be accounted to a combination of natural fluctuations and the fairly large margin of error in the test. I've had bigger changes in DHT than that while taking fin.



That's a pretty big assumption. The study they've done (assuming it hasn't been manipulated and those are real results) was only in people with high DHT. Just because they say you can take a lower dose for lower DHT levels, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work. Or it may work in some people and not others. (I'm not sure what dose you were taking.)

I'm far more interested in seeing visible results than all this. I want to know if people who take Keratene for several months see any recovery in their hair. And that's still pretty unclear.

[ajays]

Fair point, but last year I was on and off minox treatments (with at least 2-3 months between each treatment). The first time on minox i had a big shed and I stopped cold turkey and tried some alternative medicine for 2-3 months. My hair did not recover one bit during these months. I tried a different brand of minox at this point, same issues + added bonus of baggy eyes, swollen face, forehead wrinkles and skin rash. Therefore, I don't think the improvement I am seeing now is just a recovery from minox.

ajays,

You should get your blood tested even if you don't have a baseline. According to their study, it should bring your dht below most reference points so it could give you some indication of whether it's working. Regarding your results, didn't you say you were coming off minox and that it was wreaking havoc on your hair? It seems more likely that you could just be recovering from an out of control minox shed.

Yes, I am only one guy. But I am a crazy responder to anti androgens (like I regrew every hair I lost) and this did not lower my dht one bit.

[JulioGP]

Yes, I'm doing a test with Finasteride and will conduct the exams tomorrow. I believe the results come out in 10 days. Same protocol, ELISA. I'll post the results after they come out, so we can draw more conclusions about the blood tests involving the DHT. Will be two weeks with Finasteride, using 1mg every other day. Let's see what the outcome is.

[ryan555]

Fair point, but last year I was on and off minox treatments (with at least 2-3 months between each treatment). The first time on minox i had a big shed and I stopped cold turkey and tried some alternative medicine for 2-3 months. My hair did not recover one bit during these months. I tried a different brand of minox at this point, same issues + added bonus of baggy eyes, swollen face, forehead wrinkles and skin rash. Therefore, I don't think the improvement I am seeing now is just a recovery from minox.

It took me months to recover after stopping minox. It's difficult to tell what is what when there are multiple treatments. I still think you should get a blood test.

[ryan555]

Yes, I'm doing a test with Finasteride and will conduct the exams tomorrow. I believe the results come out in 10 days. Same protocol, ELISA. I'll post the results after they come out, so we can draw more conclusions about the blood tests involving the DHT. Will be two weeks with Finasteride, using 1mg every other day. Let's see what the outcome is.

Well as I said above, my test was done using LCMS as I discoverd today. I don't think anything we say is going to matter to the guys who really want to believe in this stuff. But the company's failure to come on here and publicly respond to these questions is more harming than our blood tests.

[JulioGP]

Intersting Ryan555, see here what Company answered me about de test metodology:

"ELISA explains partially the problem with the results.
ELISA has a very high technical and procedural bias.
We tried it once and quit it immediately due to the large variation between two tests under controlled situation.
We recommend using RIA (radioimmunoassay) or – much better – LCTMS (liquid chromatoscopy tandem mass spectometry).
These 2 methods are much more reliable than EIA or ELISA and the accuracy of the results is far greater.
Also, please do not consume any vegetable sterols (nuts, seeds of any sorts and also no soy products of any sort) with at least 7 days prior to the collection of the blood.
These foods/substances are known to affect the relation between various endocrine factors and DHT.
Anyway, we’ll send you another product, from a more recent batch, with a slightly more stable formula, after July 15.
My request is however that if you want to retest the values, please look for a lab that runs RIA or LCTMS."

If your tests using the methodology LCTMS, was precisely the methodology indicated by Kératene.

[25 going on 65]

Also, please do not consume any vegetable sterols (nuts, seeds of any sorts and also no soy products of any sort) with at least 7 days prior to the collection of the blood.
These foods/substances are known to affect the relation between various endocrine factors and DHT.

Rly? Soy is super common, it is now in most American processed foods. Was anyone else here told not to eat soy/nuts/seeds before their DHT test? I was not
When I got my DHT tested I was consuming plenty of soy up to the very day I got blood drawn, also sunflower seeds, & it tested extremely low....

[tdo]

Ryan,

First off, I want to say thank you for taking the time to get your blood tested!

I am in no way questioning your sincerity here, but are you sure your lab uses LCMS for all blood procedures? I only ask because you said you call a few around you which were a little further but they charged 700+ for the test. Dont you think its a little odd that your lab charged only 1/3 the amount for the same test?

[ryan555]

Ryan,

First off, I want to say thank you for taking the time to get your blood tested!

I am in no way questioning your sincerity here, but are you sure your lab uses LCMS for all blood procedures? I only ask because you said you call a few around you which were a little further but they charged 700+ for the test. Dont you think its a little odd that your lab charged only 1/3 the amount for the same test?

Yes, I'm positive. The $700 was the fee quoted direct from the lab for a cash pay. The $264 I paid was with insurance, through a physician. The actual cost of that test was probably closer to $1,000 if you paid for it without insurance. Anyway, the phone number for the lab is on the results I printed. You can probably call them and ask them what type of method they use for testing DHT. A word of caution, though, the front line support is not the sharpest. You need to be connected to a lab tech.

[Jcm800]

Well, i'm trying to believe in this stuff, but knowing that they are able to respond on here to people's concern's yet haven't, is casting further doubt day by day that this stuff isn't what we're led to believe.

[ryan555]

Well, i'm trying to believe in this stuff, but knowing that they are able to respond on here to people's concern's yet haven't, is casting further doubt day by day that this stuff isn't what we're led to believe.

These guys clearly don't want to answer the questions. Everything asked off them was very straightforward and reasonable and they were publicly welcomed by the moderators to join the discussion. And they won't say a word.

My opinion continues to be that these people are liars peddling a worthless product. I'd bet a large sum of money there will either be lawsuit against them or this product will be off the market a year from now.

[Raj27]

Extremely long time lurker. Have been a great responder to fin but have had some side sides over the years. I was naturally interested in a product that claimed to be more natural.

Ajays if you are willing, would you kindly share some b/a pics on Keratene. Appreciate you have only been on it a few months but save Hariri you are one of the few I have read about who have had good results.

I have implored the manufacturers to share some photos of their trial results with me - there must be some surely. I understand that this cannot be marketed as a hair loss supplement because of the regulatory hoops the supplier has to jump through - So with the caveat that this is just a dietary supplement that can lower DHT I was hoping they would release some photos but alas no joy.