S-equol again

[Gronholm]

Hey guys!

Maybe I’m gone make a very stupid point… but since unlike other DHT blockers equol does not prevent the production of DHT but only binds it directly… It’s not possible DHT levels on the body appear to be the same on a blood test?

Thanks for your comments

Any thoughts on the above?

I’m planning to jump in myself and going for the blood tests, but before I would like to be sure this is the right approach.

Thanks

[Gronholm]

Hey guys!

Maybe I’m gone make a very stupid point… but since unlike other DHT blockers equol does not prevent the production of DHT but only binds it directly… It’s not possible DHT levels on the body appear to be the same on a blood test?

Thanks for your comments

[PinotQ]

I also like the idea of an independent lab test. It'd be nice to have confirmation on what it actually is, regardless of whether it works.

However, Nature's Sunshine states on their website that "Nature’s Sunshine’s Equolibrium uses a nature-identical source of equol derived from non-GMO daidzein." So we know where it is coming from, but what it ends up as is not that clear.

The description on the website differs somewhat from the one used in responding to my email: "the equol in the Equolibrium is natural occurring equol." Hard to say but you would think they could be a little more direct and exacting. At any rate, please let me know if you find any independent labs that might be able to perform testing. As you may recall, the original response I received from Nature Made when they delayed their launch of s-equol was that there were quality control issues in the manufacture of the product. So it would be nice to know for sure that Nature's Sunshine has that under control.

[Adaku]

I also like the idea of an independent lab test. It'd be nice to have confirmation on what it actually is, regardless of whether it works.

However, Nature's Sunshine states on their website that "Nature’s Sunshine’s Equolibrium uses a nature-identical source of equol derived from non-GMO daidzein." So we know where it is coming from, but what it ends up as is not that clear.

[PinotQ]

As a side note, stinky tofu has a very high amount of s equol and could be where they are extracting it from.

Thanks I hope so......I just saw that after I posted. Here's the link to this 2014 research: http://file.scirp.org/Html/1-1980115_42404.htm#ref88 The article says that "activation of ER-α leads to aberrant proliferation, inflammation, and the development of premalignant lesions, while, in contrast, the activation of ER-β is critical in prostatic stromal-epithelial cell signaling and mediates anti-proliferative effects that balance the proliferative action of androgens on epithelial cells [4]" What this seems to mean is that only estrogen B is beneficial to BHP and if Nature's Sunshine is beneficial for BHP, either their equol is s-equol or r-equol binds to the estrogen b receptor just like s-equol. Anyway, if you know of a lab that will do independent lab testing let me know. I am on my 5th try so far with no luck.

[cthulhu2]

It is odd that they won't specify whether it is s or r equol. It really shouldn't be a legal issue as to tell their customers whether the product is r or s, since the customers have a right to know. It must be some sort of inconsistent mixture between the two. Naturemade's product is called s equol, which is very clear to the customer in terms of what they are getting. I think independent lab testing would be great but I assume it would be much more expensive than a blood test. I think the chance that Adaku gets a bad batch of the supplement is probably very rare.

As a side note, stinky tofu has a very high amount of s equol and could be where they are extracting it from.

[cthulhu2]

I would agree if I were 100% confident that each capsule has 6mg of equol since both s & r equol bind to DHT with about the same high affinity. However, it bothers me that Nature's Sunshine can't say exactly what is in their product. And because they say that it comes from a natural source, I am further skeptical because the only natural source of equol I am aware of is possibly white cabbage. And I believe the amounts found in white cabbage are very minimal. Not sure how they would extract that. So the bottom line for me is that I want to have piece of mind that I am taking what I think I am taking and in consistent amounts. I applaud Adaku, but if his tests show zero to minimal results, it could either be b/c equol doesn't work in vivo as anticipated or b/c it's not really equol or that the quality is poor to very inconsistent. One other point from my research is that I believe that s-equol binds to the estrogen B receptor whereas r-equol binds to the estrogen A receptor. Not sure exactly what the significance is but I thought that estrogen B receptors where prevalent in the scalp and follicles and that this was thought to be a dual benefit of s-equol. As far as I know, equol is the only new possibility for shutting down hair loss in the immediate future. It is available now (if Nature's Sunshine is legitimate) or soon thru Nature Made as there is no FDA timeline and there is legitimate reasonable science behind it. So if I am going to experiment, I am going all in and prefer to cover all of the bases. I am not saying that Nature's Sunshine is not legitimate but I would like to eliminate the doubt they have created.

It is odd that they won't specify whether it is s or r equol. It really shouldn't be a legal issue as to tell their customers whether the product is r or s, since the customers have a right to know. It must be some sort of inconsistent mixture between the two. Naturemade's product is called s equol, which is very clear to the customer in terms of what they are getting. I think independent lab testing would be great but I assume it would be much more expensive than a blood test. I think the chance that Adaku gets a bad batch of the supplement is probably very rare.

[PinotQ]

I don't believe there is a need for independent lap testing if Adaku is going to get the blood work taken. Whether it is r-equol or s-equol doesn't matter if the product has a measurable effect on serum DHT.

I would agree if I were 100% confident that each capsule has 6mg of equol since both s & r equol bind to DHT with about the same high affinity. However, it bothers me that Nature's Sunshine can't say exactly what is in their product. And because they say that it comes from a natural source, I am further skeptical because the only natural source of equol I am aware of is possibly white cabbage. And I believe the amounts found in white cabbage are very minimal. Not sure how they would extract that. So the bottom line for me is that I want to have piece of mind that I am taking what I think I am taking and in consistent amounts. I applaud Adaku, but if his tests show zero to minimal results, it could either be b/c equol doesn't work in vivo as anticipated or b/c it's not really equol or that the quality is poor to very inconsistent. One other point from my research is that I believe that s-equol binds to the estrogen B receptor whereas r-equol binds to the estrogen A receptor. Not sure exactly what the significance is but I thought that estrogen B receptors where prevalent in the scalp and follicles and that this was thought to be a dual benefit of s-equol. As far as I know, equol is the only new possibility for shutting down hair loss in the immediate future. It is available now (if Nature's Sunshine is legitimate) or soon thru Nature Made as there is no FDA timeline and there is legitimate reasonable science behind it. So if I am going to experiment, I am going all in and prefer to cover all of the bases. I am not saying that Nature's Sunshine is not legitimate but I would like to eliminate the doubt they have created.

[cthulhu2]

Great! Keep us posted. I finally heard back from Nature's Sunshine about their product and got a similar response as another poster above: " the equol in the Equolibrium is natural occurring equol. We are not making a claim or specifying whether it’s R or S." I find this disappointing since what is in the product is not a "claim" it should be a fact: It's either "S" or "R" or a combination of both. Given the lack of clarity, I will renew my effort to find an independent lab that can test the Nature's Sunshine product to verify potency and the exact composition of the equol.

I don't believe there is a need for independent lap testing if Adaku is going to get the blood work taken. Whether it is r-equol or s-equol doesn't matter if the product has a measurable effect on serum DHT.

[PinotQ]

I have purchased the first blood test, and I'll be taking it in roughly a couple weeks. I think I'll have the complete results of both tests sometime in the second half of September.

Great! Keep us posted. I finally heard back from Nature's Sunshine about their product and got a similar response as another poster above: " the equol in the Equolibrium is natural occurring equol. We are not making a claim or specifying whether it’s R or S." I find this disappointing since what is in the product is not a "claim" it should be a fact: It's either "S" or "R" or a combination of both. Given the lack of clarity, I will renew my effort to find an independent lab that can test the Nature's Sunshine product to verify potency and the exact composition of the equol.

[Adaku]

I have purchased the first blood test, and I'll be taking it in roughly a couple weeks. I think I'll have the complete results of both tests sometime in the second half of September.

[cthulhu2]

bumpety

[PinotQ]

This is the response I got from them regarding what's in their product:

Thank you for contacting us earlier this month about our Equolibrium. Per Dr Tripp, it is naturally-occurring equol. We are not specifying R or S. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with today.


Thank you,

Andrew H.
NSP Customer Service
1-800-223-8225

A quick google of r-equol would seem to indicate that if Nature's Sunshine's equol is of plant origin it is r-equol. It would also appear that r-equol also has a high binding affinity to DHT.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-equol Equol is a compound that can exist in two forms, known as the enantiomers S-(-) equol and R-(+)equol, which means the compounds mirror each other, just as a person's left hand mirrors the right hand. Both forms are of interest from a medical and pharmacological perspective and are under development as nutraceutical and pharmacological agents for the treatment of a number of hormone-related conditions.[6] However, only S-equol is produced in humans and animals with the ability to produce equol after soy isoflaovone consumption. S-Equol [7-hydroxy-3-(49-hydroxyphenyl)-chroman] is not of plant origin. It is a metabolite of the soy isoflavone daidzein. S-equol thus is characterized as an isoflavan.[7] In contrast, R-equol is not made in humans, but can be chemically synthesized, such as in the laboratory.[8] The molecular and physical structure of S-equol is similar to that of estradiol, the naturally occurring main sex hormone found in women.[9]

http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4 In brief, the present results demonstrate that equol: a) (R- and/or S-isomeric mixtures) has high binding affinity for 5α-DHT making it a potent selective androgen modulator (SAM),

[PinotQ]

@kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate.

@cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively.

@regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?

Interestingly, I emailed a few independent testing labs yesterday and one of them replied that "We do provide a wide scope of nutritional supplement testing including antioxidant analysis and biological function evaluation, however, our equal analysis does not offer separation and quantification of s-equol and r-equol, respectively. I don’t know if other labs offer this service either."

I asked for pricing anyway.

[cthulhu2]

@kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate.

@cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively.

@regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?

It's a shame that the only way we can know if the product does what it is intended is to do blood work or independent lab tests, which likely are more expensive than blood tests and are probably more difficult to obtain.