Need Help Developing a Regimen Without Fin

[Conpecia]

Here we go...

I'm 27 years old with a NW2.5 hairline and a thinning crown. After having used finasteride successfully for 5 years, this past January I developed gynecomastia and had to quit using it. Being on no treatments for 7 months has wreaked havoc on both my hairline and my crown. I'm really starting to worry. A month ago I started minoxidil 5% foam, but it gave me terrible headaches and caused bloating in my face and dark circles beneath my eyes. Having read that minoxidil may age the face, I decided it wasn't worth it.

Currently I'm just using Nizoral 2x week. I need to develop a regimen that will hold me over until better treatments arrive. If I can just maintain for two or three more years I will be able to reassess the cutting edge treatments and go with something like Histogen, or else get a hair transplant, most likely using Gho's method. That's later. This is now.

I'm willing to try anything that has worked for you guys. Topicals, shampoos, vitamins, pills, spells, sacrifices of virgins... ANYTHING. I understand that fin is the most essential treatment, but I can't use it at the moment, if ever again. If you were in my position, which treatments would you add to your regimen?

I'm considering the following:

Saw Palmetto
Toco-8
Equol (Folexen?)
RU (though I've read this may cause gynecomastia as well)
OC (gonna wait a while on this to see results of others)
Keratene Shampoo
Spiro
2% Minox foam (sides wont be as harsh perhaps?)

Any additions and advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone for reading and to those who respond.

[BaldinLikeBaldwin]

bim,CRTH2 antagonis,ascj9 myristate rum,AHK-Cu peptide-copper complex, rogaine , SWAMI RAMDEV PATANJALI KESH KANTI HAIR CLEANSER SHAMPOO,Herbal Chumket Hair Re-Growth Shampoorevita shampoo, SBM Indra Neeli Hair Oil , SBM Pure Leaf Juice Shampoo(Thiruthaali,swanson hair revitaling formula,msm, garlic pills, mens vitamin,bhringaraj oil ,Silica complex, glutathione, blck caster oil,garlic pills, aloe vera, almond oil,garlic oil, sesa oil,parachute ayur vedic hair oil, neosh101?


(c) lilpauly


(I removed finasteride and dutasteride)

Edit: In addition to the treatments you already mentioned.

[25 going on 65]

Here we go...

I'm 27 years old with a NW2.5 hairline and a thinning crown. After having used finasteride successfully for 5 years, this past January I developed gynecomastia and had to quit using it.

My understanding is that gyno requires surgery unless it's caught in very early stages, but once it's been removed, can't you take meds to prevent it whilst staying on fin?

Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.

[briandesigns]

I keep seeing OC... what is this exactly?

as to your regime, theres this guy over at hairlosshelp called The Natural. He apparently doesnt use any synthesized drugs and only use natural remedies. He experimented with lots of stuff over the years and this is what he puts up as his signature:

The Natural Internal Regimen:

vitamin C
aged garlic extract (vitamin B, GABA)
curcumin
cayenne pepper (ginger)
algae extract


supposedly he's able to maintain his hair for many years using that.

[Conpecia]

My understanding is that gyno requires surgery unless it's caught in very early stages, but once it's been removed, can't you take meds to prevent it whilst staying on fin?

Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.

The gyno meds are anti-estrogen stuff not really intended for use to prevent gyno. I have read that fin-induced gyno goes away on its own after fin is stopped. This appears to be correct. There were also sexual sides that started developing. Just gonna get away from fin for a while. I'll also strike spiro off the list.

[Conpecia]

I keep seeing OC... what is this exactly?

as to your regime, theres this guy over at hairlosshelp called The Natural. He apparently doesnt use any synthesized drugs and only use natural remedies. He experimented with lots of stuff over the years and this is what he puts up as his signature:

The Natural Internal Regimen:

vitamin C
aged garlic extract (vitamin B, GABA)
curcumin
cayenne pepper (ginger)
algae extract


supposedly he's able to maintain his hair for many years using that.

Here's the OC thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8329

I'll check out the natural stuff. Thanks.

[UK_]

Saw Palmetto
Toco-8
Equol (Folexen?)
RU (though I've read this may cause gynecomastia as well)
OC (gonna wait a while on this to see results of others)
Keratene Shampoo
Spiro
2% Minox foam (sides wont be as harsh perhaps?)

Any additions and advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone for reading and to those who respond.

Well one ingredient rings alarm bells & that's spiro, which is a powerful anti-androgen with a high rate of systemic absorbtion, but it works well, can halt further progression in most of its users.

[worried]

Well one ingredient rings alarm bells & that's spiro, which is a powerful anti-androgen with a high rate of systemic absorbtion, but it works well, can halt further progression in most of its users.

If the systemic absorbtion is high then it means you can have side effects ?
It is a powerful anti androgen but i dnt know why only limited number of people taking it and i have not read any negative views

[8868alex]

I understand the reasons why people would refrain from using Propecia and that is is a personal decision for each individual. However, the fact remains that the only way to effectively block DHT (and thus address the primary cause for mpb at this moment in time) is to use some form of it. These other therapies being discussed serve only as an adjunct. Aside from Propecia, Minoxidil and possibly Laser Therapy (the last one often prompts much debate) you could consider PRP, depending on where you are based. I know it's not exactly comprehensive, but I believe this is the bottom line.

[Conpecia]

I understand the reasons why people would refrain from using Propecia and that is is a personal decision for each individual. However, the fact remains that the only way to effectively block DHT (and thus address the primary cause for mpb at this moment in time) is to use some form of it. These other therapies being discussed serve only as an adjunct. Aside from Propecia, Minoxidil and possibly Laser Therapy (the last one often prompts much debate) you could consider PRP, depending on where you are based. I know it's not exactly comprehensive, but I believe this is the bottom line.

PRP is an avenue I haven't considered. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm not so sure that fin is the only way to block DHT. I've read a lot of success stories about RU, and equol seems very promising, just to name a couple under-the-radar alternatives. But propecia is tried and true, and it worked for me for many years. I'd be content to stay on it but for the sides.

[Tracy C]

Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

[Conpecia]

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

Interesting. Unfortunately, I am not among the class of "these guys" to which you are referring. I am among the class of guys who have actually experienced *severe* sexual/reproductive system side effects (chronic epididymitis) as well as gynecomastia, brain fog, decreased libido, watery you-know-what, etc. from finasteride.

You are implying that because finasteride is FDA approved, it is somehow more logical for me to continue taking a drug that is hurting me than to consider other options the side effects of which are UNKNOWN, meaning there is a possibility that I will respond to them better. You then imply I am not 'sound of mind' for exploring these other options. What should I do then, Aristotle? You tell me.

I know the worth of finasteride and I am looking for a treatment with equal effectiveness that does not carry the same side effect footprint. Therefore I am coming to the community to receive better information so I can make a rational, safe decision, as people with so-called sound minds do. If you are not capable of providing that information, that's fine, but I will ask that you please not wrongfully classify me then attack my attempts to learn more.

[Tracy C]

You are implying that because finasteride is FDA approved, it is somehow more logical for me to continue taking a drug that is hurting me...

I am not implying that in any way shape or form. Learn how to read.

Don't take my posts personally. I am not talking to you, I am talking to everybody. If you got side effects from Finasteride, don't use it. Those who are experimenting with a different treatment with an unproven safety profile are foolish. Especially those who are doing so because they are afraid to try Finasteride.

[mlao]

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

I don't want to add fuel to this fire but I think Conpecia is referring to topical Spiro not oral Spiro which does not have the same systematic absorption.
As a matter of fact I think Dr. John Crisler even sells a 5% spiro with 2% keto topical on his site. I'm not recommending it I'm just illustrating a point that a doctor who is very anti-propecia but very pro male health uses it as a substitute for fin.
I'm not a big believer in non proven treatments but sometimes that's the only hope some guys have when the approved meds aren't appropriate.

[neversaynever]

I am not implying that in any way shape or form. Learn how to read.

Don't take my posts personally. I am not talking to you, I am talking to everybody. If you got side effects from Finasteride, don't use it. Those who are experimenting with a different treatment with an unproven safety profile are foolish. Especially those who are doing so because they are afraid to try Finasteride.

I can understand what you are saying, but I think its easy for you to say, sorry if that sounds childish.

Calculate the risks, although forums are not an ideal way to profile a drug because the happy people dont really use forums so much. There is a damn good chance fin will cause sexual side effects. Worst case scenario, lets call it a 50/50 chance. The reason the risks are high are obvious, its systematic, and the body reacts to a drop in DHT in various ways (which are not pleasing). That is because it effects serum DHT, plain and simple. Now onto something like RU, logically, it makes sense that it would be safer because it doesnt change serum DHT levels, and mostly goes straight to follicles. There is some systemic absortion, but it has a much much lower half life than fin. People may see fin like side effects at very high doses, which people shouldnt be using anyway.

Now, there are people taking PGD2 blocks (orally i believe), that is dangerous. Maybe its not, but its a hell of a risk if theyre dosing up. We still dont know the full function of PGd2 throughout the body. HOWEVER, i can think of one company testing OC orally for asthma with no sides, its very promising. That is what is urging people to take it, but Ive yet to see any info about dosage in regards to hair.

Things like copper, can be toxic at high levels. But is being used in commercially available treatments out there, albeit in small doses.

Then there is equol, which obviously effects serum DHT levels. Im very curious about it, but also wary as so far I've only seen studies on rats! Thats a big no for me. Noone has yet to convince me as to WHY it wont have the same sides as fin. But there are people taking it, and dosing up big time.

None of these things should be considered lightly, and generally people are looking to the hopefully near future with Histogen and others.

I can understand what you're saying, but we take risks everyday in life. This is just one more calculated risk. I would also say you are not of sound mind, visiting this forum everyday and repeating yourself endlessly about fin and minox to make yourself feel better. To me, that is mad. Trying these other treatments is a different kind of madness.

Now, consider this (and no offence). As a woman, lets say youre in your 20s. You are offered a drug that saves your hair but there is a chance it can make you infertile, and there is a slight smaller chance it could take years to be normal again. Also a tiny chance you would never be able to breast feed, unless you have some kind of surgery to fix it. Would you do it?

Im considering fin, but also considering other non oral DHT treatments. And im very interested in things like AHK copper combined with minox.