Does finasteride block dht or cause the body to produce less dht?

[the_charger]

How callous to describe the experiences of men who are suffering as "propaganda". You're remarkably disrespectful and I don't even know what you're trying to "prove" anymore.

honestly I have no other word to describe it.. i think i was first thinking about propecia almost 2 years ago and this was exactly the kind of stuff I found on hair loss forums and on the internet, it was propaganda, very similar to the stuff STTB was saying. it is actually a LOT better now because people dont as easily fall for the stuff and dont stand for it like they used to, but back then I dont have any way to describe it. It isnt disrespectful at all, because a lot of the stuff I was reading and the stuff tha tkept me from taking propecia was 100% BS!

My point was and remains, that sexual dysfunction caused by finasteride affect an unknown number of men, and apparently far more than the studies indicate.

you havent shown me any proof that this is the case, which is why I disagree with it. it's perfectly fine if this is just your opinion, and we can leave it at that, but I very, VERY strongly disagree because of the number of studies that say otherwise.

Further, there are many methodological flaws with the studies currently at our disposal. It's clear that we don't know enough about the drug and opinion is unanimous that more research is urgently needed.

I agree that the studies we have now arent perfect, but the methodological flaws you pointed out are borderline ridiculous. but I do agree with you more research is needed. there are plenty of studies that all show the same side effects rates, but I think guys who have these serious persistent side effects need to be studied somewhow.. but I honestly wouldnt know where to begin on that. I hope there are some studies being done on these guys who know what they are doing and have an idea what to look for.

[Davey Jones]

...

I got my hands on the full version of this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12639651

...

so this should put final nail in the coffin of this debate I think! researchers dont even know why propecia cause side effects, but know that DHT isnt needed to keep your healthy sexual function.

Hey, if you don't mind and like doing a little research anyway, would you mind checking to see if they measured baseline estrogen levels before and after dosing? It always seemed to me that if a sizable amount of testosterone is not converted into DHT, it would be free to convert to estrogen. But that's just a guess.

Maybe men who experience symptoms from finasteride have abnormally high levels of aromatase, and without all that 5-alpha-reductase, testosterone is left with only the excess aromatase converting it into estrogen. High estrogen in men is associated with the same side effects reported on finasteride. That would explain why only some people have symptoms (as most men don't have excess aromatase), and why symptoms only present for those few they do present for when the individual starts on finasteride (because before, 5-alpha-reductase was competing with the excess aromatase).

Anyway, that's just a guess. I'm probably just talkin' out of my ass. It would be interesting to see if that study said anything about estrogen or aromatase levels.

[chrisis]

anti propecia propaganda

How callous to describe the experiences of men who are suffering as "propaganda". You're remarkably disrespectful and I don't even know what you're trying to "prove" anymore.

My point was and remains, that sexual dysfunction caused by finasteride affect an unknown number of men, and apparently far more than the studies indicate. Further, there are many methodological flaws with the studies currently at our disposal. It's clear that we don't know enough about the drug and opinion is unanimous that more research is urgently needed.

[the_charger]

it looks like you have tapped out of this debate chrisis. but I found some more proof that I am right here...

I got my hands on the full version of this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12639651

If you want to verify, you will have to buy the full version of the study like I did, but I will paraphrase because I doubt you will...


It is unknown how finasteride causes an increase of ed, decreased libido and ejaculation disorders in a small percentage of men during the first year of treatment. since there is no difference between baseline DHT or testosterone levels between men who have existing and non existing sexual problems means that DHT is not important in sexual function.

Additional support for the lack of importance of DHT in sexual function comes from studies in men born with a genetic deficiency in type 2 5-alpha-reductase (meaning NO DHT at all) shows they have normal libido and erectile function.




so this should put final nail in the coffin of this debate I think! researchers dont even know why propecia cause side effects, but know that DHT isnt needed to keep your healthy sexual function.

[the_charger]

The_Charger has some good arguments if you ask me.

Gives stats, provides resources behind his arguments, and most of all...... his determination to win this debate.


Sounds like he would be a good lawyer if you ask me

Charger,

Man you make some great arguments. Most of us couldn't be this bothered. I really hope you stick around this forum, you bring some hope of sanity on baldtruth and this topic.

Thanks a lot for the kind words both of you, im glad some people took the time to read this thread besides me and chrisis.. and 2020 who doesnt seem too fond of it!

Actually Kawaii im really surprised you said that because I am actually doing some upgrading so that I can go to law school! Well that is the plan anyway, so thank you again for the kind words.. i have a bit of a passion for collecting data and studies and ive realized how many of the numbers we see on ads and on tv are complete BS when you really look into them! I really thank crisis too because hes challenged me and forced me to check my shit before I post, so I have learned a lot about propecia, even though im certainly no expert.

I figure I owe a bit to this community, because i fell victim to anti propecia propaganda for such a long time, it was really thanks to Spencer and Dr Wasserbauer that showed me that propecia is safe and I decided to take the leap.. I dont regret it for a second.

[2020]

[chrisis]

Give up Chris your are slowly becoming Irrelevant in this forum with your pitiful whining about how propecia ruined you.

Get over it. You might get better.

I have not even claimed that it's "ruined" me. Don't put words in my mouth. I have given my honest account of my experience on the drug and the "truth" (this is bald TRUTH talk right?) is that is seriously affected me. The side effects aren't as bad as they were when I was on the drug, but still not gone 3 months after quitting.

I consider it my responsibility to inform others so they make a balanced decision and I also want to get to the bottom of my problem.

Such is the sheer desperation for you some of you to keep or regrow hair, you shamelessly round on someone who is actually suffering and pretty anxious.

It should be a surprise to no one that the popularity contest is won be a proponent of Propecia, as most people don't appear to suffer side effects, however that does not mean there aren't a sizeable number of men who DO.

[bob13]

Give up Chris your are slowly becoming Irrelevant in this forum with your pitiful whining about how propecia ruined you.

Get over it. You might get better.

[chrisis]

Modern dictionary definition as used by the medical profession:

Dihydrotestosterone: A byproduct of the male hormone testosterone. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is considered to be the essential androgenic hormone. DHT is responsible for the formation of male primary sex characteristics during embryonic life. It is responsible for the development of most secondary sex characteristics in males at puberty. And it continues to be important to male sexual function throughout adult life. A semisynthetic analog of DHT is called stanolone.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=33416

Why you would claim that the definition might be from 80s - it's absurd and bullshit. You can't just make stuff up to form an argument.

[chrisis]

I really clearly explained the problems with that definition.... Who wrote it? Where are the sources? How old is that definition? you can probably understand, medicine changes quickly. maybe it was the understanding back in the 1980's was that DHT was very important for sexual functioning in adult men, but a lot can change in 30 years and it really obvious that it has, as the end of this post will really clearly show. even the study you posted said that hormones and the effect on sexual function was very poorly understood.

The definitions were sourced from current medical dictionaries. You're so deluded it's like you're insane.

[khan]

Charger,

Man you make some great arguments. Most of us couldn't be this bothered. I really hope you stick around this forum, you bring some hope of sanity on baldtruth and this topic.

[oOKawaiiOo]

The_Charger has some good arguments if you ask me.

Gives stats, provides resources behind his arguments, and most of all...... his determination to win this debate.


Sounds like he would be a good lawyer if you ask me

[fab]

I don't know what is worse, to deal with the side effects or to read these arguments here

[the_charger]

well i saw you were online when i posted that last one, and the times ive been on here ive seen you go offline, online, offline, I only have to assume you actually read my last post and either

a) are sticking by your completely arbitrary position that if I refuse to accept your 'definition' (admit defeat) that you will no longer debate this. btw thats exactly like saying "okay, admit that you are wrong and then we can keep debating"

b) have absolutely no response to my last post about dutasteride, because it basically proves that you are wrong


I actually think it's b), but you are using a) as an excuse to not have to answer.

but I am completely willing to drop all this talk about DHT if you want to go back to our original debate about how you think that finasteride is so unsafe because the safety hasnt been proven. I came across a LOT of proof that I can post for you to read through. actually i never really realized how safe propecia is until i started looking at all these studies!! I am amazed to find that some studies couldnt even find proof that finasteride caused ANY side effects, and one that actually shows that just knowing that it causes sexual problems can cause these side effects in 3 times as many guys!


so do you want to keep going or are you tapping out? like you said, you are debating with a complete idiot here, so it shouldnt be hard to win!

[the_charger]

I'm not going any further in this debate until you accept that DHT is a hormone responsible for good male sexual health.

translation: "I know I cant win this so maybe I can trick him into admitting hes wrong!!"

I really clearly explained the problems with that definition.... Who wrote it? Where are the sources? How old is that definition? you can probably understand, medicine changes quickly. maybe it was the understanding back in the 1980's was that DHT was very important for sexual functioning in adult men, but a lot can change in 30 years and it really obvious that it has, as the end of this post will really clearly show. even the study you posted said that hormones and the effect on sexual function was very poorly understood.

I've provided medical literature and a study. It's there in black and white. Your quote above might as well say "I refuse to accept facts".

you provided a study from 1995 that shows 93 young, healthy men with slightly higher DHT levels on average have one extra orgasm a week.

Your theory is that DHT is absolutely vital to maintain libido in adult men.

no, the study you posted doesnt even closely show this is "black and white". Please read the following closely and tell me again that im refusing to accept facts.






so im just showing sources to save you time arguing. this is the source for the following setence: http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_avodart.pdf

After 1 and 2 weeks of daily dosing with dutasteride 0.5 mg, median serum DHT concentrations were reduced by 85% and 90%, respectively. In patients with BPH treated with dutasteride 0.5 mg/day for 4 years, the median decrease in serum DHT was 94% at 1 year, 93% at 2 years, and 95% at both 3 and 4 years.

so we can agree dutasteride decreses serum DHT by 90-94%, yes? If you dont agree, please do explain exactly why not.


Side effects taken from here (they are also in the link i provided above but this is a bit neater) http://www.drugs.com/sfx/avodart-side-effects.html

A placebo controlled study with 4300 men showed these effects on decreased libido:

Avodart: 3.0%
Placebo: 1.4%

remember we should always subtract the placebo from the drug group so our real side effect rate for decreased libido is 1.6%.

AND THAT WAS ONLY DURING THE FIRST 6 MONTHS! The remaining 18 months show a difference of only 0.2% in men taking avodart over the men taking placebo. this is almost completely insignificant.


How on earth could you read this and still tell me with a straight fact that DHT is so important for libido? At the very most, it may have a very, very small effect on it... but I wouldnt even say that, because libido side effects on finasteride (which lowers DHT by around 60%) are almost the exact same. even more, you are saying merck has effected the studies and hid the real results, which would mean finasteride side efects are actually HIGHER than dutasteride, which means lowering DHT actually INCREASES your libido?

So have I changed your mind about this yet, and can we return to what we were originally debating? Because I have a LOT of really good stuff to come back to your original comments also!

PLEASE dont keep avoiding this topic (for the 4th time now) because I have responded to EVERYTHING you posted about this debate. If you keep refusing to comment on what I posted about dutasteride, lets just call this what it is and we can return to our original debate about finasteride (if you havent entirely given up yet.)