Does finasteride block dht or cause the body to produce less dht?

[the_charger]

i honestly havent looked into this very much because I already know im right, but here is an example of a study I just came across:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/91/7/2509.full

just fyi, this is what a study looks like. All those little numbers and graphs are called DATA... pretty arent they?


There were over a thousand test subjects. Doctors had a hypothesis, that they thought Testosterone was responsible for libido in men, but didnt have any solid data to prove it.

So they set up a study. they set up test parameters, conducted the study and looked at the data. the data strongly supported their hypothesis that Testosterone IS responsible for libido. Nowhere in this study is DHT even mentioned. You would think maybe if DHT were so crucial for libido that they might have mentioned that?

[chrisis]

You refuse to accept the medical definition of DHT.

[chrisis]

http://www.bmj.com/content/310/6990/1289

"Conclusions: Differences in concentrations of circulating dihydrotestosterone within the normal range may represent a major predictor of sexual activity in healthy young men."

That should satisfy you.

Also note from the study:

• The hormone that determines sexual behavior has not yet been conclusively identified in healthy adults
• This study shows that dihydrotestosterone is the dominant hormonal determinant of the frequency of orgasms in young healthy adults
• The frequency of orgasms depends not only on psychosocial factors but on variation of dihydrotestosterone concentrations within the normal range

[2020]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride#Mechanism_of_action

END OF THREAD

[the_charger]

http://www.bmj.com/content/310/6990/1289

"Conclusions: Differences in concentrations of circulating dihydrotestosterone within the normal range may represent a major predictor of sexual activity in healthy young men."

That should satisfy you.

by george, you've got it! thank you for finally posting a study! this is very satisfactory!

that being said, this doesnt mean you are right.

• The hormone that determines sexual behavior has not yet been conclusively identified in healthy adults

the much more recent study I posted very conclusively identifies Testosterone as the hormone responsible for sexual behavior in adults. the study you posted is from 1995, and this statement shows its age.

• This study shows that dihydrotestosterone is the dominant hormonal determinant of the frequency of orgasms in young healthy adults
• The frequency of orgasms depends not only on psychosocial factors but on variation of dihydrotestosterone concentrations within the normal range

the problem with this study is they basically took 92 guys, measured their hormone levels, asked them how many orgasms they had every week, and noticed guys with slightly higher blood DHT levels had one more orgasm per week. this is interesting, but it certainly does tell us that DHT is solely responsible for normal sexual functioning in men. all of these guys are sexually active, healthy, and have hormone levels within a normal range. this study does not tell us that when DHT levels are lowered, that libido lowers as a direct result. It also concludes that "DHT may represent a major predictor of sexual activity" which is a far-cry from what you are saying that if there is no DHT in the body, your libido will be directly affected.

this is certainly an interesting study, and like i said before, it opens the door for some further studies, but it does not undoubtably prove what you are saying by any means.

[the_charger]

You refuse to accept the medical definition of DHT.

I do officially refuse to accept the statement in the link you provided.

to reiterate, the definition you are talking about is this:

Dihydrotestosterone: A byproduct of the male hormone testosterone. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is considered to be the essential androgenic hormone. DHT is responsible for the formation of male primary sex characteristics during embryonic life. It is responsible for the development of most secondary sex characteristics in males at puberty. And it continues to be important to male sexual function throughout adult life. A semisynthetic analog of DHT is called stanolone.

found here:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=33416

This does not have an author, it does not have a source, and there is no way of verifying anything that is said in that sentence from this website. The statement "And it continues to be important to male sexual function throughout adult life" if you hadn't noticed is what we have been debating for the last 2 pages. are you trying to trick me or something?

If you want to agree on a definition of the words "Dihydrotestosterone" how about we just go directly from the Wikipedia article? at least this is regularly vetted by people that check the sources!!

Dihydrotestosterone (5α-Dihydrotestosterone, commonly abbreviated to DHT) is an androgen or male sex hormone. The enzyme 5α-reductase synthesizes DHT in the prostate, testes, hair follicles, and adrenal glands

since for some reason you want to define the meaning of this word, I think we can both agree this is a very valid and accurate definition.





NOW with respect to our side discussion about DHT, I believe I have answered all of your questions. I responded to your study, I responded above to the definition of DHT, now please answer my questions about dutasteride. I believe the point I have made with it will more or less completely end this discussion. you skirted this and refused to answer twice now, but since I took the time to respond to your demands, i would like you to show the same respect please.

[chrisis]

I do officially refuse to accept the statement in the link you provided.

I'm not going any further in this debate until you accept that DHT is a hormone responsible for good male sexual health.

I've provided medical literature and a study. It's there in black and white. Your quote above might as well say "I refuse to accept facts".

[the_charger]

I'm not going any further in this debate until you accept that DHT is a hormone responsible for good male sexual health.

translation: "I know I cant win this so maybe I can trick him into admitting hes wrong!!"

I really clearly explained the problems with that definition.... Who wrote it? Where are the sources? How old is that definition? you can probably understand, medicine changes quickly. maybe it was the understanding back in the 1980's was that DHT was very important for sexual functioning in adult men, but a lot can change in 30 years and it really obvious that it has, as the end of this post will really clearly show. even the study you posted said that hormones and the effect on sexual function was very poorly understood.

I've provided medical literature and a study. It's there in black and white. Your quote above might as well say "I refuse to accept facts".

you provided a study from 1995 that shows 93 young, healthy men with slightly higher DHT levels on average have one extra orgasm a week.

Your theory is that DHT is absolutely vital to maintain libido in adult men.

no, the study you posted doesnt even closely show this is "black and white". Please read the following closely and tell me again that im refusing to accept facts.






so im just showing sources to save you time arguing. this is the source for the following setence: http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_avodart.pdf

After 1 and 2 weeks of daily dosing with dutasteride 0.5 mg, median serum DHT concentrations were reduced by 85% and 90%, respectively. In patients with BPH treated with dutasteride 0.5 mg/day for 4 years, the median decrease in serum DHT was 94% at 1 year, 93% at 2 years, and 95% at both 3 and 4 years.

so we can agree dutasteride decreses serum DHT by 90-94%, yes? If you dont agree, please do explain exactly why not.


Side effects taken from here (they are also in the link i provided above but this is a bit neater) http://www.drugs.com/sfx/avodart-side-effects.html

A placebo controlled study with 4300 men showed these effects on decreased libido:

Avodart: 3.0%
Placebo: 1.4%

remember we should always subtract the placebo from the drug group so our real side effect rate for decreased libido is 1.6%.

AND THAT WAS ONLY DURING THE FIRST 6 MONTHS! The remaining 18 months show a difference of only 0.2% in men taking avodart over the men taking placebo. this is almost completely insignificant.


How on earth could you read this and still tell me with a straight fact that DHT is so important for libido? At the very most, it may have a very, very small effect on it... but I wouldnt even say that, because libido side effects on finasteride (which lowers DHT by around 60%) are almost the exact same. even more, you are saying merck has effected the studies and hid the real results, which would mean finasteride side efects are actually HIGHER than dutasteride, which means lowering DHT actually INCREASES your libido?

So have I changed your mind about this yet, and can we return to what we were originally debating? Because I have a LOT of really good stuff to come back to your original comments also!

PLEASE dont keep avoiding this topic (for the 4th time now) because I have responded to EVERYTHING you posted about this debate. If you keep refusing to comment on what I posted about dutasteride, lets just call this what it is and we can return to our original debate about finasteride (if you havent entirely given up yet.)

[the_charger]

well i saw you were online when i posted that last one, and the times ive been on here ive seen you go offline, online, offline, I only have to assume you actually read my last post and either

a) are sticking by your completely arbitrary position that if I refuse to accept your 'definition' (admit defeat) that you will no longer debate this. btw thats exactly like saying "okay, admit that you are wrong and then we can keep debating"

b) have absolutely no response to my last post about dutasteride, because it basically proves that you are wrong


I actually think it's b), but you are using a) as an excuse to not have to answer.

but I am completely willing to drop all this talk about DHT if you want to go back to our original debate about how you think that finasteride is so unsafe because the safety hasnt been proven. I came across a LOT of proof that I can post for you to read through. actually i never really realized how safe propecia is until i started looking at all these studies!! I am amazed to find that some studies couldnt even find proof that finasteride caused ANY side effects, and one that actually shows that just knowing that it causes sexual problems can cause these side effects in 3 times as many guys!


so do you want to keep going or are you tapping out? like you said, you are debating with a complete idiot here, so it shouldnt be hard to win!

[fab]

I don't know what is worse, to deal with the side effects or to read these arguments here

[oOKawaiiOo]

The_Charger has some good arguments if you ask me.

Gives stats, provides resources behind his arguments, and most of all...... his determination to win this debate.


Sounds like he would be a good lawyer if you ask me

[khan]

Charger,

Man you make some great arguments. Most of us couldn't be this bothered. I really hope you stick around this forum, you bring some hope of sanity on baldtruth and this topic.

[chrisis]

I really clearly explained the problems with that definition.... Who wrote it? Where are the sources? How old is that definition? you can probably understand, medicine changes quickly. maybe it was the understanding back in the 1980's was that DHT was very important for sexual functioning in adult men, but a lot can change in 30 years and it really obvious that it has, as the end of this post will really clearly show. even the study you posted said that hormones and the effect on sexual function was very poorly understood.

The definitions were sourced from current medical dictionaries. You're so deluded it's like you're insane.

[chrisis]

Modern dictionary definition as used by the medical profession:

Dihydrotestosterone: A byproduct of the male hormone testosterone. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is considered to be the essential androgenic hormone. DHT is responsible for the formation of male primary sex characteristics during embryonic life. It is responsible for the development of most secondary sex characteristics in males at puberty. And it continues to be important to male sexual function throughout adult life. A semisynthetic analog of DHT is called stanolone.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=33416

Why you would claim that the definition might be from 80s - it's absurd and bullshit. You can't just make stuff up to form an argument.

[bob13]

Give up Chris your are slowly becoming Irrelevant in this forum with your pitiful whining about how propecia ruined you.

Get over it. You might get better.