Snake oil?

[Pboy101]

This statement shows that you are indeed very naive because from a scientific prospective, not much is actually known about human hair loss. I don't need to get into a argument with you or anyone else about this, but to accuse him or to suggest that he is a "certified nut" is totally out of order!

Perhaps when I said that he is a nut that was out of line and a bit of an ad hominem, for which I do owe the guy an apology. It is true that we don't know all that there is to know about hair loss, but that does not invalidate what we do know about hair loss.

What we do know:
1. Hair loss is mostly hereditary and caused but DHT weakening the hair follicles.
2. Finasteride/Dustasteride are anti-androgens that have been shown to block DHT attacking the hair follicles.

What we don't know:
1. Why people have varying degrees of success with finasteride.
2. The cure for hair loss.

Truth is that what do we know (finasteride) works.

If science is so good and has all the answers, let's see pictures of your hair which you have regrown due to "science". Yep, I guessed correctly, you are either too embarrassed or too scared to post pictures of your own hair loss (or hair regrowth, which I doubt you have anyway....)

Why are you so quick to answer your own question? Did you really bank on it that I can't provide pictures? lol... Pictures of when I started to notice hair loss and pictures taken moments ago are below, my friend. I have pictures taken the 1st of every month, documenting the shedding and regrowth as predicted by the big 3. Next month (around the 20th) will be my exact 1 year on finasteride and around which time I will post my full story and every picture so that the forum can see.

Then




Now

[Pboy101]

By the way, there seems to be confusion or at least some degree of discussions that are not relevant to what we are talking about. The world natural here that I'm using just means something that's not supernatural (i.e. claims without evidence). If you find some substance that's found in nature (not lab created) that helps hair loss, that's cool. Document your usage and results and it will be independently verified by others and it will eventually become science. Instead of debating the definition of science, we should really be talking about what you are claiming and and evidence or reasons you got to make such claims and so far I see no good evidence to believe the OP's post on what he thinks works.

[Notcoolanymore]

This is just another anti propecia thread. Nothing new to see here. We can fight over the meaning of science or the FDA or any other nonsense and it isn't going to matter. It's not like this hasn't been tried countless times. Especially with all the anti propecia hype going around. Most of us have tried some type of natural remedy as our first response to hair loss and the majority of us just ended up losing even more hair. If you have some type of nutritional deficiency then yes this could possibly make a difference, but if you don't you are wasting precious time.

This shouldn't even be a debate of natural vs propecia. It should be a debate of what works vs what doesn't work. I have yet to read one instance of it working that wasn't suspect(anti propecia propaganda). I hate taking a prescription med to save my hair. I have no problem saying that at all, but it is what I have to take to try to prevent from going bald. If somebody wishes to try this natural treatment I will not steer them away from it. Go for it and please take plenty of pics of your progress. It will be a learning opportunity for us all.

[epipapilla]

@ Pboy101,

when I first took a glance at you pictures I instantly thought, "Oh my days, where is the hair loss?"

At further detailed inspection of your pictures, the only hair loss that appears visible is that of what appears to be thinning hair in your right temple. But then, I noticed the direction of the light shinning onto your right temple, and I know that this can make your hair there appear like it it suffering more from hair loss...Next, I looked at the lighting in the 2 sets of pictures, and they are totally different, so I don't know how you can even make a "scientific comparison" from this one set of before and after pictures. Next, if you look at the angles of your head in all the comparison before and after, in the pictures of your left and right temples, the head angles are totally different. Lastly, your hair length in your 2 sets of pictures are totally different! Hair loss can easily be masked with longer hair in the "after" pictures....

So, for someone who totally seems obsessed with "science" well your before and after pictures, in my honest opinion, are not very "scientific".

Anyway, I don't want to sound like someone who is here to bash you. Hair loss is something that can affect peoples self confidence and outlook on life. Much of hair loss treatments depends on how you personally feel how it is working for you. If you feel that Finasteride is working for you then that is all that matters, just the same like if Herbaliser feels that his natural solution is working for him. There is not, and has never been a "one-fits-all" solution to any medical ailment and people should not be put down for believing that a natural solution is working for them.

Enjoy your hair, enjoy your life!

[Pboy101]

@ Pboy101,

when I first took a glance at you pictures I instantly thought, "Oh my days, where is the hair loss?"

At further detailed inspection of your pictures, the only hair loss that appears visible is that of what appears to be thinning hair in your right temple. But then, I noticed the direction of the light shinning onto your right temple, and I know that this can make your hair there appear like it it suffering more from hair loss...Next, I looked at the lighting in the 2 sets of pictures, and they are totally different, so I don't know how you can even make a "scientific comparison" from this one set of before and after pictures. Next, if you look at the angles of your head in all the comparison before and after, in the pictures of your left and right temples, the head angles are totally different. Lastly, your hair length in your 2 sets of pictures are totally different! Hair loss can easily be masked with longer hair in the "after" pictures....

So, for someone who totally seems obsessed with "science" well your before and after pictures, in my honest opinion, are not very "scientific".

Anyway, I don't want to sound like someone who is here to bash you. Hair loss is something that can affect peoples self confidence and outlook on life. Much of hair loss treatments depends on how you personally feel how it is working for you. If you feel that Finasteride is working for you then that is all that matters, just the same like if Herbaliser feels that his natural solution is working for him. There is not, and has never been a "one-fits-all" solution to any medical ailment and people should not be put down for believing that a natural solution is working for them.

Enjoy your hair, enjoy your life!

I think much more clarity will come when I organize and post every picture and tell my story in about a month. It is true that I never got very far in my hair loss (NW2, maybe?)and so it will be somewhat difficult to see the difference, but it never got far because I decided to do something about it. I no longer cut my widow's peak a millimeter or 2 just to give an illusion of an even hairline (as I did in the before picture). To be honest, if I had just kept my hair as it was a year ago and never lost anymore, I would be fine with it, but we know hair loss is progressive and so that's not the case. I first noticed the hair loss and shaved completely to see how bad it was (my first post, look it up) and it's clear that I have hair loss. For me, the most important thing is maintenance and any regrowth is extra, which is precisely what has happened. Thank you, big 3.

And although maintenance is what's really important to me, I think you are grabbing straws if you think that length, lighting, and angle have that much to do with the hair regrowth seen in these pictures especially when the now pictures are so much brighter than the before pictures. Notice that I took these current pictures with my phone with a poor frontal camera just on the fly so I can have something to show you. No matter, I will try to satisfy all your conditions and cut my hair to the exact length that it was in the before picture and take photos in the same spot, same lighting, same angles, before I post my story next month.

I'm not trying to put down anybody and I am very happy with my current hair and so I don't really visit these forums much anymore. I check in every now and then to see what's on the horizon and when to expect a cure to hit the market. While I'm here, I want to help my fellow men because hair loss affected my confidence and I want others to have success as I did. I think that the first step in the right direction is to not take a step in the wrong direction, or at least in this case the unproven direction. It is true that there's no one-size-fits-all remedy for hair loss but the percentage of success on the known medicines is so high that you should try them before going other routes. I just want everyone to be informed on their decision.

If Herbaliser thinks his natural remedies are working for him, that's perfectly fine. There's just a little more burden (the burden of proof) when you go out and make claims that this as a good remedy with little to no evidence to back it up. Other people might try this and end up wasting their their time and losing more hair if it ends up not working like the other "natural" remedies as shown by history, and that's not a good thing for the community. So all that I (and some others) am asking for is some evidence for his claims, and I don't think that's unreasonable. That's all I got to say. Good luck.

[epipapilla]

I think you are grabbing straws if you think that length, lighting, and angle have that much to do with the hair regrowth seen in these pictures especially when the now pictures are so much brighter than the before pictures. Notice that I took these current pictures with my phone with a poor frontal camera just on the fly so I can have something to show you.

I am not grabbing at straws at all. It appears that you have a tendency to come with many accusations at people for some reason!

I have been taking many pictures of my own hair loss and hair regrowth over the last 9 months and know that hair loss can easily be made to look worse or better with different lighting and with different angles that the head is positioned. If you look at many before and after pictures by companies selling hair loss products you will often see that the after picture has longer hair in it. These are deceptive practises that are common in the hair loss industry and done to make hair regrowth appear better than it actually is. When taking pictures that are meant to help ascertain whether you have hair regrowth progress, especially where your hair loss is not so visible, it is desirable to try to take pictures with the same length, same lighting and same head angles.

I am done responding or even reading anything you have to write, you are only fixated on Finasteride and Minoxidil. You bring nothing new to the table and seem to have a distinct inability to think outside of the box, unlike Herbaliser. Many people on this forum are looking for hair loss solutions that are different from taking or using Finasteride and Minoxidil.

Science does not exist in a vacuum, neither does hair loss. Hair loss solutions need to be applicable to real life and people need to be comfortable using them. For example, a highly significant percentage of women with cancer, up to 10%, refuse to undergo chemotherapy because they do not want to have the hair loss that is associated with it. You can explain the "science" about chemotherapy and cancer all day long to such women, but they don't care about the science, they care more about their hair!

That's Life!!

[Trenblastoise]

Probably you didn't read my other posts.
For me, no hair loss is not science because hair loss suddenly became science for beneficial reasons (do you get my point?)
Thank you for clearing the definition of science, now i´m as patronizing as you are and at the same level.

I have read several of them.

You deny that hair loss is science that's fine, it is not science in your opinion and you are entitled to have that. I just wanted to make sure that it is in fact science and you deny that, regardless of "beneficial reasons" whatever that is.

The reason why I provide definitions in a rational discussion is to make sure we are talking of the same things. And here it was as my post stated very extraordinary to see someone claim hair loss isn't science, I thought perhaps you had twisted definition of the word "science". It is not about showing superiority or arrogance, and I do not think you should consider yourself at the same level if you deny facts, that will again be your opinion. We might be at the same level that we understand the definitions provided

I see no reason to comment further so I'll let you have the last word. And wish you a great life, maybe we cross each other in some other thread!

[Sondra]

I've seen many natural products like olive oil, coconut oil, almond oil, essential oils and herbs working like magic on hair. It's a slow and steady process that needs patient. Most of the time these things work.

[Pboy101]

I've seen many natural products like olive oil, coconut oil, almond oil, essential oils and herbs working like magic on hair. It's a slow and steady process that needs patient. Most of the time these things work.

Contrary to how I've been baselessly accused of in this thread, I'm actually not closed minded and I'm very open to the possibility of new hair loss treatments, even the natural ones. The only thing that it would take to convince me would be some evidence. The process of becoming an acceptable treatment is actually very easy to understand.

1. Find a treatment that you find effective.
2. Document your usage and results.
3. Have the same treatment tested and independently verified by others.
4. Become widely accepted by the hair loss community because of repeated success either with FDA approval (finasteride, minoxidil) or without (RU, CB, Ketoconazole).

It seems to me that you guys are unable to understand this concept and just want to make claims and have them accepted without any pictures, results, testing, whatsoever. Most of us are skeptical and that's a good thing. If someone in the street gave you some yellow water and said it's the elixir of life and that you should drink it, I would hope that you would be skeptical about that. The principle is no different in this case. Now if you bring some pictures of some progress, then we can start talking. Until then, snake oil remains snake oil until vindicated by evidence.

[Herbaliser]

I put my progress in a new thread: https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showth...icing-progress

[Herbaliser]

Contrary to how I've been baselessly accused of in this thread, I'm actually not closed minded and I'm very open to the possibility of new hair loss treatments, even the natural ones. The only thing that it would take to convince me would be some evidence. The process of becoming an acceptable treatment is actually very easy to understand.

1. Find a treatment that you find effective.
2. Document your usage and results.
3. Have the same treatment tested and independently verified by others.
4. Become widely accepted by the hair loss community because of repeated success either with FDA approval (finasteride, minoxidil) or without (RU, CB, Ketoconazole).

It seems to me that you guys are unable to understand this concept and just want to make claims and have them accepted without any pictures, results, testing, whatsoever. Most of us are skeptical and that's a good thing. If someone in the street gave you some yellow water and said it's the elixir of life and that you should drink it, I would hope that you would be skeptical about that. The principle is no different in this case. Now if you bring some pictures of some progress, then we can start talking. Until then, snake oil remains snake oil until vindicated by evidence.

For me the treatments has gone way to far.
I was actually shocked going thru this forum, and there has to be a dictionary soon regarding all the medical terms for hair loss.

The companies are only seeing dollar bills, while the victims suffer due to our effort to fit in our shallow society that created this.
I found my way by accident and health (even if it was so called hereditary) , but it will never progress further and nobody will try it anyway.

They succeeded by making this a big market, and keep people on hold.

[Herbaliser]

I am not grabbing at straws at all. It appears that you have a tendency to come with many accusations at people for some reason!

I have been taking many pictures of my own hair loss and hair regrowth over the last 9 months and know that hair loss can easily be made to look worse or better with different lighting and with different angles that the head is positioned. If you look at many before and after pictures by companies selling hair loss products you will often see that the after picture has longer hair in it. These are deceptive practises that are common in the hair loss industry and done to make hair regrowth appear better than it actually is. When taking pictures that are meant to help ascertain whether you have hair regrowth progress, especially where your hair loss is not so visible, it is desirable to try to take pictures with the same length, same lighting and same head angles.

I am done responding or even reading anything you have to write, you are only fixated on Finasteride and Minoxidil. You bring nothing new to the table and seem to have a distinct inability to think outside of the box, unlike Herbaliser. Many people on this forum are looking for hair loss solutions that are different from taking or using Finasteride and Minoxidil.

Science does not exist in a vacuum, neither does hair loss. Hair loss solutions need to be applicable to real life and people need to be comfortable using them. For example, a highly significant percentage of women with cancer, up to 10%, refuse to undergo chemotherapy because they do not want to have the hair loss that is associated with it. You can explain the "science" about chemotherapy and cancer all day long to such women, but they don't care about the science, they care more about their hair!

That's Life!!

Thank you again for thinking clearly, and the approach regarding hair loss.

[epipapilla]

Contrary to how I've been baselessly accused of in this thread, I'm actually not closed minded and I'm very open to the possibility of new hair loss treatments, even the natural ones. The only thing that it would take to convince me would be some evidence. The process of becoming an acceptable treatment is actually very easy to understand.

1. Find a treatment that you find effective.
2. Document your usage and results.
3. Have the same treatment tested and independently verified by others.
4. Become widely accepted by the hair loss community because of repeated success either with FDA approval (finasteride, minoxidil) or without (RU, CB, Ketoconazole).

It seems to me that you guys are unable to understand this concept and just want to make claims and have them accepted without any pictures, results, testing, whatsoever. Most of us are skeptical and that's a good thing. If someone in the street gave you some yellow water and said it's the elixir of life and that you should drink it, I would hope that you would be skeptical about that. The principle is no different in this case. Now if you bring some pictures of some progress, then we can start talking. Until then, snake oil remains snake oil until vindicated by evidence.

Haha!

Okay! I will post pictures of my hair regrowth progress in July 2015 in order for you to observe how good natural hair loss treatments can be.

Why July 2015? Well, because I have been using this natural hair loss treatment since July 2014 and I think that 1 year is adequate time to evaluate if it is working. Well, actually, on 28 April 2015, I knew that this "non scientific" and "non-FDA approved" treatment was effectively working to regrow the hair in my vertex. But, I don't want to commit hubris just yet, so I will wait until July to show you.

I will not currently reveal more about the hair loss treatment I am using, I will only do so in July.

Make sure you come back to this thread in mid July 2015!!

[Herbaliser]

Haha!

Okay! I will post pictures of my hair regrowth progress in July 2015 in order for you to observe how good natural hair loss treatments can be.

Why July 2015? Well, because I have been using this natural hair loss treatment since July 2014 and I think that 1 year is adequate time to evaluate if it is working. Well, actually, on 28 April 2015, I knew that this "non scientific" and "non-FDA approved" treatment was effectively working to regrow the hair in my vertex. But, I don't want to commit hubris just yet, so I will wait until July to show you.

I will not currently reveal more about the hair loss treatment I am using, I will only do so in July.

Make sure you come back to this thread in mid July 2015!!

My progress went over my expectation as posted in a another thread and so will yours.
Only a couple were surprised over the result, for that short of time, and the rest is surely in a denial mode because the drugs would be unnecessary.
Probably i went to far by quoting this?

[Herbaliser]

These pictures are 12 days between.
I found a natural treatment that reg-rowed my hair and gave me health benefit also.