New user; 7-weeks post-procedure

[gillenator]

jetfan,

No problem my friend. Listen, yes I have seen many cases over the years similiar to what you are experiencing, although there are variables with each case.

I have a question upfront. Did the last doctor who did your most recent procedure shave your recipient area prior to the procedure? The reason I ask is because whenever new grafting is being done in an area that has exisitng hair, it is crucial that the surgeon see the angulation of the exisitng hair when making new recipient sites. The new recipient incisions must follow the direction and angulation of the exisitng hair otherwise transection of that exisitng hair can be at risk. Transection meaning that the new incisions actually damage the underlying existing follicles beneath the scalp. Transection is permanent damage to other nearby follilces within the area being grafted. Transection can also occur if the grafts are not microscopically dissected and prepared.

Now please understand, I am not saying that happened not knowing who your latest surgeon was and what exactly occurred during your procedure. If you went to a reputable proven surgeon, then I doubt that transection is the culprit. I do believe that some of the hair that fell out is in fact shockloss and at 3.5 months post-op, it's way too early to assume that it will not grow back. And yes the shockloss can impact the neighboring areas even where no grafting occurred as rare as it is.

Also, having two prior procedures implies that the blood supply within the recipient area is already compromised from prior scarring. So it is not unusual for the regrowth to take a bit longer to manifest on subsequent procedures. I think you will see some gains in regrowth in the next 3-6 months to come. Even with first time procedures the regrowth does not typically show itself until you get between the third and fourth month where you are right now.

Not sure what you meant when you stated that the area was "chewed out". Did you mean from the recent procedure or the previous ones? And did you mention which doctor did you last procedure 3.5 months ago?

As hard as it can be, give it more time as many others concur, and I think things will improve in the coming months. Keep us posted on your progress and wish you the best.

[jetfan11]

shocl loss

I hear ya Gill. My mistake. I'm not really thinking clearly these days. If you're not too offended I'd love your opinion on my situation. I had 1000 grafts done by a medicore surgeon 3.5 months ago in my frontal 1/3. Almost all of the existing hair was grafts from procedures in 04 and 08. That whole area has been "chewed" out from graftingthe doc did. Looks way way worse than before. Also had prp and acell the day of the surgery. At 3.5 months I've seen some regrowth but no where near where I was pre op. Along with minimal regrowth some areas have thinned worse where he didn't graft. I'm 35 been on propecia/finestride for 10 years.

I'm hoping my shock loss recovers but getting worries at 3.5 months I'm not recovering like I should.

Do you think I'm behind in my recovery or to be 3.5 months out and still nott seeing major upswing I still have time for improvement.

[gillenator]

jetfan,

Thank you for your kind words. Don't worry my friend, you have not been the first one to call me a HT salesman, and you probably won't be the last. And it's perfectly understandable that new members that do not know my history would see my presence as surfing for patients for financial gain. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I actually intended to leave the industry completely after I left my last clinical position who's main clinic is based in Atlanta. But several of the doctors that left that clinic at the same time were the ones that encouraged me to be an independent advocate. In fact one of them became my first endorsing physician and here I am ten years later still helping patients.

You see, even though my intentions were to start small business management consulting, and even chartered a new company, the calls and emails from patients kept coming and found myself consoling and guiding them to whatever resolve could potentially help them. I spent endless evenings on the phone with patients while trying to make a new business venture.

There is a certain psyche that accompanies hairloss which I experienced myself as a patient. And many of the guys that I assist already had their surgery and typically in need of repair. Many of them live a life under a ball cap and/or have very low self esteems. Some of them rarely leave their homes other than for work. My heart goes out to them.

I have always spoken out against the corruption and how I got the nickname of "Gillenator" which a less than ethical doctor gave me many years ago. I kept the name when I joined the forums long before I became a minister.

And maybe my emotions got the better of me as I had just got back to my office to resume my work day and see who may be requesting help on the forums. That's when I read your post and said to myself, "If this guy only could see where I had just been this morning".

It's very humbling to spend the last days of someone's life and assist them in their death which ends up almost always, imminent. There's a man named Chris and dying of stage 4 melanoma cancer, has a wife and three children desparing over their husband and father. Yet I get to live and so many end up dying. I leave the hospital, look up to the sky towards heaven and ask for His divine mercy on this man and his precious family. Chris has lost all of his hair from the chemo and so I presently look at my own hairloss much differently. I lost my own hair after chemo but it did grow back, but not Chris.

I look at life much differently now. I know that I am living on borrowed time and am thankful for every person that is put in my path. I also have a very loving, supportive, wonderful, kind wife. She has a heart very similiar to mine and she makes some of these visits with me on the weekends. We make just enough money to pay our bills and we like it that way. We try to make a difference in a world corrupt with the love of money and power.

When I go to bed at night, nothing makes me more blessed and content than knowing that I may have made a positive difference in someone's life today and am humbled and thankful for it. I apologize for rambling but I rarely discuss what I do outside of the forums and never ever thought that my life would turn out this way.

Still, you have your own challenges as we all do and want you to know that my postings to you regarding your shockloss were well intended. Your own dilemma and feelings are just as geniune as anyone else. This is why I continue to wish you the very best in this life and sincerely hope everything works out for you my dear friend.

[jetfan11]

Shock loss

Gill,

I'm sorry I didn't realize all of that. It wasn't a judgement on you or your character. I mean everyone is kind of faceless on the Internet. I assumed you were making commissions of the people on this site who eventually get hair transplants with the Drs that sponsor it. You sound like a very good person. I've just been through hell last 3 months and if this shock loss is permanent my life may never be the same because of 1 bad decision. Can't imagine going through the rest of my life looking the way I look now or with this gigantic pulsating inch and a half bright red scar around my head. 3 months ago I had ver decent head of hair mainly transplants from 2 Bosley procedures. I got greedy went for another 1 and now 3.5 months later look worse than ever. Didnt mean to rush to judgement. Apologies.

[gillenator]

jetfan,

You are very welcome yet I must correct you about your category of myself as a HT salesman. I do not sell HTs, nor am I employed by any doctor/clinic, nor do I handle any money, nor do I sell anything. I do not have a website because I do not promote anything but help to others.

Yes there was a point more than a decade ago when I did work inside the clinic and yes I did sell HTs back then. But after quickly learning how money oriented the industry is was the prime basis for my quitting and becoming an independent self-employed advocate. In other words, I am not under the direction or control of any employer but myself.

The amount of money that my endorsing doctors pay is menial and covers the monthly operating costs of my office and nothing more. I operate it like a non-profit entity and fully report every penny on my tax return. I do not earn commissions or referral fees, do not pay myself a salary. My total income is 1200/month. You are welcome to come anytime and look at my books. I privately help many guys who are in need of repair and unbiased direction. I say privately because most of these individuals do not join or participate in posting but they do read and surf the various forums diligently. I have never nor do I ever intend to charge any patient for my help/support.

Maybe take some time and read my past posts on any hairloss forum. You will see that I endlessly advise/warn many patients against HT surgery, especially the younger newer more emotionally driven patients. You will see that I am truly looking to help other hairloss sufferers just like yourself without bias. And I also have suffered hairloss over many years and had multiple procedures as a patient so I bring both personal as well as professional/clinical experience to the forums.

FYI, I spend the majority of my time as a licensed/commissioned Chaplain and spend endless hours volunteering my time in hospitals, nursing homes, juvenile detention centers, jails, and private homes offering hospice support to individuals mostly dying of late-stage cancer. I make myself available and on call 24/7. You see jetfan, I almost died of terminal stage lung cancer myself so I am called to minister to people who are in a place of suffering, and request my support.

Not that I am not patting myself on the back because my pastoral ministry is something personal between the Lord and myself. As I said, I do it without taking any compensation whatsoever. "It is better to give than to receive". Please take note that I never comment/promote about myself and that I never use the forums as a soapbox. I do not commercially promote any of my supporting doctors either.

My advice is to be slow to judgement and quick to offer consolance to others the same way that you yourself have received it in these forums. Even though many doctor's reps/consultants/sales people do participate in these forums, it does not take long to see who are there to help and those who are there to promote their employers.

Take the time to get to know someone before you just label them as you never know who or what you will find.

I wish you the very best in your journey my friend and truly hope you find the resolve that you are seeking. Peace be unto you!

[jetfan11]

Thanks Gill. I truly hope you are right. Hopefully these next 3 months will be a recovery. I appreciate your response. With that being said I've been trolling these sites for 3 months searching for some answers. Truth is you Spex and all these other folks are hair transplant salesman. I'm in sales as well no disrespect to that. You are on here looking for guys who want hair transplants hence sales for you. As a result every response you guys give on here to shockloss or any other potential problem is comically positive becuase you sell ht's. To the conntrary every ht horror story I've read from actual patients is exactly same as mine-shock loss. Patient responses are 50/50. Sometimes it grows back sometimes it doesn't they have horrific scar and their life is ruined.

I pray mine recovers but at same time hard to put faith in the "oh. It will grow back" from someone who job and reason for being on this site is to sell ht's.

Fair?

Again appreciate the response and hope you are right.

[gillenator]

Some native hair that is shocked out can potentially recover a little bit quicker than the transplants themselves.

Any way that you look at it, hair follicles that go into the telogen phase will rest for 3 months on average and then re-enter the growth phase. That's the scientific reality of how our follicles behave.

Hang in there, and before you know it, you'll start to see the new growth manifest.

[jetfan11]

niedbalski

Man I hope that's the case. This has been roughest 3 months of my life. I do feel better that you had shock loss and got some recovery. I'm wondering if shock loss only starts to recover at 3/4 months or should be well on its way to being recovered by then.

If it just starts to regrow at 3/4 months then I have to buck up and cope for a while longer.

I truly hope I have an amazing recovery. Much is riding on that. Plus I'm def out of donor hair. Kind of a kick in the nuts to have 2 great transplants with Bosley. Then on a 3rd small procudure have it knock out all your old grafts expose your scar and be out of donor hair. Tough pill to swallow if it soed not recover.

[win200]

I didn't say it was unnethical for him to put grafts where I have density. I said as a surgeon you need to warn people of the risks associated with it. Its commonplace that placing hair where there is hair has significant risk. I also think destroying ALL of exisitng hair where you placed new hair without question the sign of bad work. Especially if the hair lost in my case is previously grafted hair.

I don't think Niedbalski is in same league as Feller or many other doctors. I've read several posts including yours of people who had terrible shock loss with Niedbalski.

I liked him. I thought we was a good guy. I chose to go with him. But my result is w/o question the sign of bad work and to not mention shock loss especially when transplanting heavy into existing hair is not right. Make no mistake I am responsible as well. Didn't do enough research. Hopefully all this shock loss recovers. If not it may well have ruined my life.

I think that's fair. That being said, give it time. As any transplant patient will tell you, it's impossible to tell what quality of work you received at 3 months. If you read this thread history, you can tell that I was freaked out at 3 months, and basically declared it a botched job. Now, I'm completely happy and multiple other posters have pointed out that I received excellent work. It's completely possible that you might have gotten awful work, but you can't say that "without question" at this point. I've seen some cases of just horrendous shock loss that had recoveries that seem almost miraculous. I know it's really tough, but try to find a distraction and give it time to recover.

[jetfan11]

niedbalski

I didn't say it was unnethical for him to put grafts where I have density. I said as a surgeon you need to warn people of the risks associated with it. Its commonplace that placing hair where there is hair has significant risk. I also think destroying ALL of exisitng hair where you placed new hair without question the sign of bad work. Especially if the hair lost in my case is previously grafted hair.

I don't think Niedbalski is in same league as Feller or many other doctors. I've read several posts including yours of people who had terrible shock loss with Niedbalski.

I liked him. I thought we was a good guy. I chose to go with him. But my result is w/o question the sign of bad work and to not mention shock loss especially when transplanting heavy into existing hair is not right. Make no mistake I am responsible as well. Didn't do enough research. Hopefully all this shock loss recovers. If not it may well have ruined my life.

[win200]

Well I think there lies the difference. Most of your grafts were not in areas where there was hair. All of. My grafts were in areas where there was hair. My procudure blew out almost all of the hair. In those areas. Sounds to me like you lost some density where he put new grafts but most of your grafts were not placed in areas of existing hair and grew in nicely.

Sound right?

That's true. If you look at my one-week post op pics, you can see that the grafts lowered my hairline and went barely into the existing hairline. My existing hairline sort of retreated a bit, like it was recoiling from the incisions--which is entirely consistent with shock loss; the scalp reacts to being sliced and diced.

That being said, it is *not* necessarily irresponsible of a surgeon to transplant into existing areas that are diminishing in density. I'm seen work from some of the very best surgeons, like Dr. Feller, who transplant into areas where there's currently hair in order to "beef up" density. It's just such a case-by-case evaluation.

How old are you, BTW?

[jetfan11]

niedbalski

Well I think there lies the difference. Most of your grafts were not in areas where there was hair. All of. My grafts were in areas where there was hair. My procudure blew out almost all of the hair. In those areas. Sounds to me like you lost some density where he put new grafts but most of your grafts were not placed in areas of existing hair and grew in nicely.

Sound right?

[win200]

I'm confused. Your shock loss never fully recovered and you never got back to your pre op density, but your happy with his work? How is that?

Part of it is accepting reality: I have MPD. Therefore, I'm gonna lose some of my hair. Specifically, in my case, in the forelock area. Shock loss is an inherent risk in a hair transplant, and there's frequently little to nothing that a surgeon can do about it. A surgeon needs to be careful not to transplant too far back into the existing hairline, but I don't think Niedbalski did in my case. The bottom line is that his hairline design was natural, my scar is barely visible, and he used a conservative design that didn't blow through a lot of grafts but still got me what I wanted. A minor sacrifice in the immediate frontal density--of hair that I was going to lose anyway--is perfectly acceptable to me. I have no reason to think that that shock loss wouldn't have happened with any other surgeon. These guys are incredibly talented, but they're not magicians, and they can't control your body's normal reactions to a surgical procedure, nor can they necessarily predict it.

[jetfan11]

shock loss

I'm confused. Your shock loss never fully recovered and you never got back to your pre op density, but your happy with his work? How is that?

[win200]

Well I'm glad it worked out OK for you. Unfortunately I've lost a ton of hair and its very noticeable to say the least. I can only hope that some of it comes back. I think its unethical of Niedbalski to not warn people of shock loss when they are working in areas with lots of hair. Also my ignorance for not looking into it on my own. I have heard terminal hair comes back and most of my loss were grafts so we shall see.

You have EXTREMELY thick hair that certainly did not look weak or thin I woulda thought yours would have grown back.

So of shockloss that actually recovered for you at what month did it start to improve. Like I said I'm at about 3 and not much recovery going on.

I'm very sorry to hear that you're having bad shock loss. You should post some pictures and you'll get some good feedback. If you don't want to post them publicly, I'd be happy to take a look if you send them to my email listed above. And FYI, I have no association with Dr. Niedbalski beyond my status as a patient of his. I'm happy with his work, but I also recognize that all experiences vary and I have no vested interest in trying to improve your opinion of him--just in providing helpful feedback. I think I only saw improvement around the six-month mark. It's a very long and protracted process, and I looked like crap (to my eyes at least; we're all our own worst critics) until six, six-and-a-half months. At three months you're at the point where most post-op patients look the absolute worst, so hold off final judgment for awhile. Usually, 18 months is considered the point at which the "final" result is visible, so you've got a long way to go.