FUE and the short hair cut

[HelpROGER]

Topcat you have no self control. You always take the bait, you just can’t help yourself.Who on earth would take advice from a person like you? Jotronic has the right to state his opinion based on what he has seen at H&W. I think people on this forum respect him a hell of a lot more than a Neanderthal bully like you. You only wish you had a mother like mine who cares enough for me to make me think twice before having my first hair transplant. Maybe if you did you wouldn't be a bitter old man now.

[sausage]

Topcat you have no self control. You always take the bait, you just can’t help yourself.Who on earth would take advice from a person like you? Jotronic has the right to state his opinion based on what he has seen at H&W. I think people on this forum respect him a hell of a lot more than a Neanderthal bully like you. You only wish you had a mother like mine who cares enough for me to make me think twice before having my first hair transplant. Maybe if you did you wouldn't be a bitter old man now.

Roger.....whats your current situation with your hairloss?

Are you thinking of getting a HT?

[topcat]

The fact is Roger I don’t believe you to be a genuine poster. I have been around the forums for going on 14 years now and I have read your limited amount of postings which span a couple of years. They offer zero substance and basically are cheerleading type posts with the occasional need to protect some while dissuading those with a message. This is not normal for someone who is coming to the forums looking for a solution to their hair loss and screams red flag in my opinion.

It happens on most all the forums with each forum having its unique set of posters who seem to be associated with the industry. I have had my exchanges with many of them. Regardless of if this is true or not in your case prospective patients do need to understand that huge amounts of money are being made here and this does go on much to the detriment of the patient.

[mattj]

Where would we be without the outspoken posters? We'd have a less entertaining forum, that's for sure - and the information available to new researchers wouldn't be as thorough. Sometimes he dialogue on the forums can be very...harmonious, so I welcome posters like topcat.

Carry on, guys.

[topcat]

My nature has always been to be nice and pleasant and it still is but over the years I have learned to be not so nice with people who have bad intentions and I'm not specifically speakng about any one person in this industry. In my own work I know the difference between doing what is right and what is wrong unfortunately the world of hair transplantation is another story. Too many foxes watching the hen house so somebody needs to babysit, sad but true.

As I have written in the past it is only the patients who can change this industry by taking the time to speak up.

[HelpROGER]

The fact is Roger I don’t believe you to be a genuine poster. I have been around the forums for going on 14 years now and I have read your limited amount of postings which span a couple of years. They offer zero substance and basically are cheerleading type posts with the occasional need to protect some while dissuading those with a message. This is not normal for someone who is coming to the forums looking for a solution to their hair loss and screams red flag in my opinion.

It happens on most all the forums with each forum having its unique set of posters who seem to be associated with the industry. I have had my exchanges with many of them. Regardless of if this is true or not in your case prospective patients do need to understand that huge amounts of money are being made here and this does go on much to the detriment of the patient.

I guess the jig is up. You got me King Topcat. You caught me red handed, I am a shill for H&W. Please forgive me for my transgressions and give me another chance to be part of your royal forum kingdom. You see how smart Topcat is everyone, try as I might I could never fool him.
All hail King Topcat, King of the forums!

[ejj]

` yawn `....

[Jotronic]

Topcat,

I apologize for leaving this open for so long. One of my greatest peeves is not having time to respond how I would normally prefer.

Jotronic you refuted the comment that fue could be used to give the shadow of a hairline with the rest of the hair shaved fairly close to the scalp as it does not exist and seems to just be an internet rumor. This is clearly false as I have seen results such as this and better in person and several such cases have been posted to the internet. To say you have not seen these cases might very well be true but it does make me wonder when I hear that statement coming from a strip only clinic.

I believe it is abundantly clear that you did not listen to the broadcast or at least not as clearly as you should have. The point of the show where I came in was to discuss the micro-pigmentation issue that has been debated so much lately. The conversation changed when Spencer said that instead of getting a shaved head look why don't they just get a few thousand grafts to build a hairline and then shave down. I asked him if he'd actually seen this in practice and he said he had not. My point was that a lot of things get mentioned online as if they are every day occurrences when in fact they are simply sound bites that have been repeated, over and over. He proved my point.

I then said, and I quote myself, "I have yet to see someone online that has actually gone through with this, a sprinkling of grafts with an outline of a hairline and then shave down and be able to pull off this look like "oh that guy just has a shaved down look. I've not seen it." Those were my exact words.

Keep the context in mind and that I was referring to NOT seeing someone that has been able to do this and make it look like they are not suffering major hair loss, which is the point to begin with, and just shaved their hair down. There is this idea online that a bald man can have a few thousand FUE grafts and once it is shaved short the stubble will somehow make everyone around them think they aren't bald. One would have to have a significant amount of hair transplanted to pull this off.

Remember my photos of my head buzzed with a #4 guard on top and a #3 guard on the sides and back? I seem to recall at least one poster saying that if one's hair looks as thin as mine, with 10,000 grafts, then what's the point of getting a hair transplant? This was THE point I was trying to make by showing photos of MY own hair cut so short with so many grafts. At that length it doesn't fool anyone and this segways into my often repeated points about the sweet spot for length. But I digress.

Jotronic I would disagree with your statement about density being the main concern when avoiding scarring in the donor area. Most of the scarring I have seen has not been so much from reducing density from its original so much but using punches that were too large along with a very poor extraction pattern. Of course density matters but I would be more concerned with these two issues firstly.

You are also misunderstanding my words about density and scarring. The higher one's density is in the donor zone the easier it is to hide donor scarring, both FUE and strip. If one has exceptionally high donor density they can have a lot more hair removed via FUE with a low risk of having visibly depleted donor density and a much easier time concealing the donor dot scars. This is a fact, Topcat. Ask any doctor about this and they'll agree. If they don't, tell me who they are and I'd be happy to debate the issue with them.

Jotronic why may I ask does your clinic have all these FUE tools, what is the purpose?

Seriously, why do you think? To use them of course. To see what works best, what doesn't work at all and everything in between.

A guarantee of growth which states a full refund if it does not grow is not necessarily a guarantee of growth. It’s a guarantee of getting your money back.

I'm not sure what your point is and I'm somewhat confused how to respond. How else is a guarantee supposed to work exactly? It it doesn't grow, you'll get your money back. This is the highest assurance that a company can provide to instill confidence in their own product, be it a hair transplant or a baby stroller.

I have seen my share of strip cases where there was a failure of growth or full yield. I’m not blaming it on the clinic or the procedure itself as sometimes it’s just the patient for whatever reasons unknown. This is why in my opinion a small FUE procedure is always the safest way to dip your toe in the water and I don’t think this fact can be argued.

To be fair, you can't blame it on the technique. At all. FUE was BORN for one reason and one reason alone. No strip scar. It was not developed to be easier on the grafts. It was not developed to provide better growth. This is a fact. I too have seen my share of disaster cases, a fair bit more than you have, and I've seen them from FUE as well as strip. This "dipping" of one's toe into the water is not logical in the least and I've always wondered why a few people advocate this. What possible similarities could there possibly be between 100 FUE grafts in one session and 3000 FUE grafts in one session? Zero, absolutely zero.

When you say you don’t offer FUE because it can’t give the same result you should be more specific. Your clinic does not seem to have the necessary skill to offer it which is still good as they are good at what they do offer. As far as mega sessions of course strip would make more sense but that should be clearly stated as a reason why strip would be preferred. If we are talking about a young guy that needs 2000-3000 grafts why on earth would someone push them into having a strip procedure? It’s unconscionable in my opinion.

Respectfully you have no idea what we do and do not have the skills for. FUE is not rocket science. There is experience to be had, of course, but most of this is understanding the dynamics of hair and how it changes from one type to the next, from one ethnicity to the next, so on and so forth. Punch sizes, punch manufacturing methods, materials, hand held, mechanized, rotating, oscillating. The options can be dizzying but the basics will never change.

We don't push anyone. The vast majority of our patients come to us for one reason. Our results. The majority could give two flips about a strip scar or FUE dots or shaving their heads. They simply want hair, and they want to get their money's worth. For those few that do insist on FUE, but for some reason think that we will offer it, we will gladly refer them to someone that does offer it. Just last week I referred a patient to two separate FUE doctors and privately contacted one of these doctors to give him the patient's contact info.

Regarding the questions you say should be asked of poor FUE clinics. You assume that the readers know whom these poor FUE clinics are. If they did, why would they bother asking them these questions? The more logical approach would be to ask these questions of ALL clinics regardless of skill, regardless of technique. But then, one would have to assume that the clinic is being honest about it if they even bother answering such questions to begin with. I think would be more easily found by looking up the Attorney General's website for the respective states that a clinic or clinics may be based out of and do a search.

[HelpROGER]

Well said Jotronic! I think it’s funny that people hear or read what they want to hear or read. Topcat needs to grind that axe whenever he can. It gives him power. It not about honestly educating patients, it’s about being right for him.

[sausage]

I think 3000 grafts on top of a typically bald head might do enough to give an ok look shaved down.

It would get rid of the horrid skin head look, you will look like your thinning but at least you won't have the prominent horseshoe look anymore.

[topcat]

Jotronic I think where we might differ here is in our definition of shaving down. When I hear shaved down I think 1 or 2 guard and I have seen enough results to know that it can be done and look very good with no white dotting. Shaving down to the bone regardless of how good or bad it looks would seem pointless if you are having a hair transplant and this is why when the term shaving down is used I automatically believe one is referring to very short and not actually razor shaved. Maybe this should have just been stated in a clearer manner as a listener I misunderstood it as fue does not allow one to cut their hair very short. But I take full responsibility for the mistake and not listening close enough.

I think we could both agree that how this industry is most deceptive is by how they conveniently leave essential information out of the conversation. In your shoes I might have said I have not seen anyone who has had a fue procedure that was shaved to the bone and gave that patient the appearance of someone who looked like they had hair but I have seen some 1 or 2 guards that looked exceptional. Maybe you in fact have not seen a 1-2 guard that looks really good, I don’t know and maybe that is why it was not mentioned or maybe you felt it was not worth mentioning. In hindsight I do not think you did this on purpose but being a repair patient and having watched this industry for such a long time it’s an issue for me when I feel essential information is being left out of the conversation and there are many examples to be found on the forums. When I see or hear something along these lines I am very likely to comment as that is what draws me to the forums and regardless of what some might think it’s not promotion. If that were the case I would not have been posting for what’s going on 14 years now. My repair is relatively recent in the timeline.

I mean come on robots using 1mm punches, doctors doing 10,000 graft fue mega sessions, multiple strip scars, giant fue punches, and hair lines for 12 year old boys. This is only the tip of the iceberg and this is only possible for clinics by withholding critical information from the prospective patient during the decision making process. Dishonesty and withholding information these are my issues and this is where I am coming from, with no axe to grind with anyone. I expect honesty and I hold those that actually make money from this industry to a higher standard regardless if it’s direct compensation, commission, ad revenue or whatever and part of that honesty when you work in this industry is to cover every base when speaking or writing . It is my opinion that those employed in this industry are in a position of greater knowledge and with that comes the responsibility of being as clear as possible. I do it in my own line of work as I am well aware that the customer simply does not have the expertise.

As far as donor scarring and donor depletion I do not view them as the same. Sure unethical overharvesting by way of fue can make the donor area look depleted and moth eaten but it does not necessarily mean that the patient will look scarred up with white dots. That will be determined more so by the skill of the doctor in my opinion. Most of the white dot scarring I have seen has been by doctors trying to learn fue, doctors too lazy and too greedy to use a smaller hand punch or simply just not having ability and it always seems to be the same doctors. Ethical clinics do not deplete the donor area, it’s only the clinics promising 12,000 fue. Same goes for strip regardless of the laxity. When the clinic pulls so many strips that they actually start to lower the crown or raise the neck hairline they have gone too far and it happens often due to greed.

I would also state that I am not bitter about my own past experience and at the moment very pleased with the progress I have made in my own repair. But even without the repair my issues are with what I see as business as usual being continued in this industry. I mean really why should any doctor be suing a patient. That is a complete red flag. If a doctor sues a patient regardless of whom it is then do not go to that doctor, strike them off your list. The onus is on the clinic to educate the patient and completely explain the numbers. If the poor result is due to something the patient did during the healing process then it just needs to be stated by the clinic and it does happen. If the patient is just one of those rare individuals in which a hair transplant failed for whatever reason then that too should have been fully explained to him as a rare possibility but all the clinic needs to do is say the hair transplant failed for unknown reasons and it can happen and not launch lawsuits but I digress…..lol……

The fact is just because someone possesses fue tools does not mean they can perform the procedure with a high degree of skill. The poor results and scarring out there are proof of this. Sure maybe robots and other devices will eventually offer those who do not have the skill the opportunity to pursue fue but at this point nothing compares to a skilled surgeon using a hand punch and that is my opinion. Those that are offering these robotic devices or any new technology should be required to test them on themselves and their family members first. Not some young guy that doesn’t know jack shit about how this industry operates and preys on his naivety.

It should be worded as “our guarantee is that if it does not grow we will give you your money back”. That’s very different in my opinion than a guarantee of growth. Maybe I just do too much reading and see things that others do not. But that type of wording would be considered reframing in Neuro Lingustic Programming and could be used as a marketing technique as is skews the view of reader and tends to viewed in more of a positive light. I am not saying this was your intention but the wording is important for a patient making a decision.

An example for you:
It’s very pretty outside today, but tomorrow it’s going to rain.
It’s very pretty outside today, and tomorrow it’s going to rain.
It’s very pretty outside today, even though tomorrow it’s going to rain.

These sentences describe something similar, but the change of only a word or two makes you think about the weather differently.

The reasoning behind the smaller fue procedure in my opinion is it too definitely know without doubt as a patient that you are dealing with a competent highly skilled doctor and not wasting precious donor. It is also insurance against something lacking in one’s own physiology that might make them a poor candidate for a hair transplant whatever reason that may be and regardless of how small that risk represents. A perfect example would be one recent strip patient that had what can only be described as very poor yield from approximately 8000 fu. He then went on to have a mega session beard and bodyhair transplant with another clinic and had an equally low level of yield. Chances are very high that there might be something going on with this patient’s physiology that makes him a poor candidate. He would have been better served with a small procedure before wasting the donor and the money. It could also be that the yield would have been much higher with a smaller session having less trauma and better healing. This makes complete sense to me but I guess others do not see this.

Sure I will agree with you I don’t know for certain that H&W lacks the skills to perform fue. I’m just opining from statements that have been made in past years and only from memory as I don’t feel the need to look up every comment that has been made on the forums and cut and paste it here. But I can tell you from what I have seen over the years the percentage of doctors that can do it very well meaning high yield and minimal to zero visible scarring is very, very low.

Jotronic I respect you for posting the information on donor reality and I respect you for recommending a patient to a highly skilled fue doctor. I think you understand where I’m coming from and none of what I say regardless of how harsh I sometimes sound should be taken personally. Sometimes I am just trying to make my own point. For instance when I read a prospective patient write that he is looking for a doctor that has experience working mostly on young guys I just shake my head. Here is a person that has access to plenty of information but refuses to see it. He will look like a circus clown in a few years with a low dense hairline with nothing left to put behind it. Of course I’m being intentionally rude but it’s in hopes of making a point and preventing this person from making a mistake.

Personally knowing what I know now I would never have a strip. I would be happy just having fue even if that meant less hair but I can’t go back in time and can only use my experience as a positive motivating force moving forward. It does not mean I am against strip if that is what someone desires, I’m only speaking for myself. Anyone that has ever asked me was always told H&W does excellent work each and every time.

We could keep going back and forth here but I understand your points and hopefully you understand mine. I have some very strong opinions and it’s not just about this industry. It is my own personal belief that too many seem to get their information from sources that are based on ad revenue while the most valuable information can only be found in books and through the experiences of others. My criticism applies to many other industries of which I have done extensive reading along with some of the idiotic comments I often hear about geopolitics or some other subject when it is just someone parroting something they heard in the main stream media which is more often than not factually incorrect. But when you ask these same people to name me the last five books they have read on the subject the answer is always zero.

Hopefully over time the cream can rise to the top in this business and those that have damaged and those that continue to damage others will get what is coming to them.