C5000 2nd HST yesterday

[Arashi]

OK let me play devils advocate here, if like you say, the average Joe can lose about 4000 FUE, are you saying that if this average Joe was to shave down to lets say a grade #1, then average Joe's donor after 4000 FUE wouldn't be noticeable to the human eye? I'm not talking about scaring/white dotting here, just hairless gaps.

As for the average fue graft being 2.1, I'm not even sure it's that high anymore, it seems the more I look around online at the results of FUE, the lower the figure gets, I actually think it's less than 2, I would go as far to say that the average is 1.90

Also when did Iron Man say 1.3? I definitely missed that one, he said to me over email that 60% were 1 hair grafts and 40% 2 hair.

Anyway without wanting to repeat myself, I believe 5000 HST grafts is roughly the equivalent of 4000 FUE grafts particularly when you factor in the recipient growth %.

There are quite a few forums of course but on one particular there are tons of showcases for hairtransplants, both postes by patients as doctors. If you search that forum for 'singles' you will find quite a few threads where people reported how many singles, doubles, tripples and quadrupples they've got. I saw results varying between 1.8 and 2.5, checked about 10 cases, average seemed slightly above 2.

My own result is about 1.3 possibly even lower and Ironman had similar numbers. Also remember that 50 graft test, James Bald, he had similar numbers too. So 4000 FUE grafts would be about 2.1 / 1.3 * 4000 = 6500 HST grafts.

[Arashi]

I just looked it up, James Bald has 1.25 average: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12643640.jpg
150 singles and 50 doubles = 1.25 hair/FU.

Actually, I will see if I can find my own calculations and pictures, I think I remember my result was below 1.3 too ...

[gc83uk]

So 4000 FUE grafts would be about 2.1 / 1.3 * 4000 = 6500 HST grafts.

That is of course your opinion and statistically unproven as is my version of events:

4000 FUE grafts would be about 1.9 (0.85) / 1.4(0.95) * 4000 = 4857 HST grafts.

Iron Man has already told me around 1.4

You also didn't answer my previous question!

+ Even if you replaced 1.4 with 1.3 in the above calc, then it would only come out at 5200 HST grafts. Despite what James Bald Sample produced or what your sample produced, I've counted 1.4 on my own case and I.M has said as much to me about his case. So I'll be sticking to that 1.4 figure.

[Arashi]

That is of course your opinion and statistically unproven as is my version of events:

4000 FUE grafts would be about 1.9 (0.85) / 1.4(0.95) * 4000 = 4857 HST grafts.

Iron Man has already told me around 1.4

You also didn't answer my previous question!

+ Even if you replaced 1.4 with 1.3 in the above calc, then it would only come out at 5200 HST grafts. Despite what James Bald Sample produced or what your sample produced, I've counted 1.4 on my own case and I.M has said as much to me about his case. So I'll be sticking to that 1.4 figure.

Hehe, reasoning like that I can say "I found some 2.5 hairs/FU for FUE, so I will take THAT as an average" You can't just ignore James Bald case, nor my case. James Bald case is quite good actually, since it's the ONLY known case where HASCI provided hair/FU statistics.

[gc83uk]

You know it wasn't that long ago when you were saying 4000 FUE = 8000 HST

Now your saying it's 4000 FUE = 6500 HST

[gc83uk]

Hehe, reasoning like that I can say "I found some 2.5 hairs/FU for FUE, so I will take THAT as an average" You can't just ignore James Bald case, nor my case.

No, don't get me wrong I'm not ignoring it. I just prefer to concentrate on larger samples, it's not normally a good idea to use small sampes like the James Bald one..... I would be interested in seeing some stats on your result, I know its pretty dam difficult to count the hairs, but I'm guessing you have a good photo somewhere.

Soon I will post a new photo from the mid section of my head, the least dense area and we can try a new count to see the average. It's probably the best way considering there is no native hair in that area.

+ When I say soon, I mean a few weeks, I'm in wedding mode atm (next friday), only came here because I'm getting tired of writing my speech and needed to think about something else

[Arashi]

You know it wasn't that long ago when you were saying 4000 FUE = 8000 HST

Now your saying it's 4000 FUE = 6500 HST

And I explained why: the average hair/FU is known to be around 2.5, so I took that number. But it seems, at least from the 10 cases I looked at, that the actual number is slightly lower. Not sure why, but that's that. So yeah, 4000 FUE = 6500 HST seems about correct from the data we have.

[Arashi]

it's not normally a good idea to use small sampes like the James Bald one.....

You do realize that the ALL hasci claims are based on their thesis, in which they analyzed 5 (F I V E) patients ? Talking about small samples

[gc83uk]

You do realize that the ALL hasci claims are based on their thesis, in which they analyzed 5 (F I V E) patients ? Talking about small samples

Yeah, but you've never seen me claim their thesis is worth much more than the paper it's printed on!

[Arashi]

Yeah, but you've never seen me claim their thesis is worth much more than the paper it's printed on!

Hehe, at least we can agree on that

[gc83uk]

And I explained why: the average hair/FU is known to be around 2.5, so I took that number. But it seems, at least from the 10 cases I looked at, that the actual number is slightly lower. Not sure why, but that's that. So yeah, 4000 FUE = 6500 HST seems about correct from the data we have.

I think I can answer that. Well the common sense answer for me would be, when doing FUE, let's say you are doing a minor session of 1000 grafts, I think the FUE surgeon can afford to cherry pick the richest grafts, 3 / 4 hair grafts and use these. However when you get into mega sessions or doing e.g 5000 FUE, it would be irresponsible to take ALL the best grafts from the donor and only leave behind the 1's....

+ You need the 1 hair grafts for the hairline right? For every 1 hair graft you extract you have to extract a 3 hair graft just to keep the avg at 2, seems a pretty tough task to me.

Other than those two reasons I cannot see why else.

[Arashi]

So, what about measuring your donor density Gaz ? Are you up for that ?

[gc83uk]

So, what about measuring your donor density Gaz ? Are you up for that ?

Yea of course. Just not at the moment for the reasons mentioned in post #51

[Arashi]

Yea of course. Just not at the moment for the reasons mentioned in post #51

Ok, would be very interesting. Good luck with your speech and have fun !

[gc83uk]

Another reason for FUE grafts being lower than many thought is possible transection. I suppose this still happens from time to time. I know the most skilled FUE surgeons use different size tools, but I suppose if the hairs are splayed under the scalp, then it's innevitable than sometimes you will transect.

I can't think why else.