Need Help Developing a Regimen Without Fin

[Tracy C]

Also I believe your chances of side effects on spiro will be much higher than on fin or dut, so you may want to avoid that one.

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

[Conpecia]

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

Interesting. Unfortunately, I am not among the class of "these guys" to which you are referring. I am among the class of guys who have actually experienced *severe* sexual/reproductive system side effects (chronic epididymitis) as well as gynecomastia, brain fog, decreased libido, watery you-know-what, etc. from finasteride.

You are implying that because finasteride is FDA approved, it is somehow more logical for me to continue taking a drug that is hurting me than to consider other options the side effects of which are UNKNOWN, meaning there is a possibility that I will respond to them better. You then imply I am not 'sound of mind' for exploring these other options. What should I do then, Aristotle? You tell me.

I know the worth of finasteride and I am looking for a treatment with equal effectiveness that does not carry the same side effect footprint. Therefore I am coming to the community to receive better information so I can make a rational, safe decision, as people with so-called sound minds do. If you are not capable of providing that information, that's fine, but I will ask that you please not wrongfully classify me then attack my attempts to learn more.

[Tracy C]

You are implying that because finasteride is FDA approved, it is somehow more logical for me to continue taking a drug that is hurting me...

I am not implying that in any way shape or form. Learn how to read.

Don't take my posts personally. I am not talking to you, I am talking to everybody. If you got side effects from Finasteride, don't use it. Those who are experimenting with a different treatment with an unproven safety profile are foolish. Especially those who are doing so because they are afraid to try Finasteride.

[mlao]

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

I don't want to add fuel to this fire but I think Conpecia is referring to topical Spiro not oral Spiro which does not have the same systematic absorption.
As a matter of fact I think Dr. John Crisler even sells a 5% spiro with 2% keto topical on his site. I'm not recommending it I'm just illustrating a point that a doctor who is very anti-propecia but very pro male health uses it as a substitute for fin.
I'm not a big believer in non proven treatments but sometimes that's the only hope some guys have when the approved meds aren't appropriate.

[neversaynever]

I am not implying that in any way shape or form. Learn how to read.

Don't take my posts personally. I am not talking to you, I am talking to everybody. If you got side effects from Finasteride, don't use it. Those who are experimenting with a different treatment with an unproven safety profile are foolish. Especially those who are doing so because they are afraid to try Finasteride.

I can understand what you are saying, but I think its easy for you to say, sorry if that sounds childish.

Calculate the risks, although forums are not an ideal way to profile a drug because the happy people dont really use forums so much. There is a damn good chance fin will cause sexual side effects. Worst case scenario, lets call it a 50/50 chance. The reason the risks are high are obvious, its systematic, and the body reacts to a drop in DHT in various ways (which are not pleasing). That is because it effects serum DHT, plain and simple. Now onto something like RU, logically, it makes sense that it would be safer because it doesnt change serum DHT levels, and mostly goes straight to follicles. There is some systemic absortion, but it has a much much lower half life than fin. People may see fin like side effects at very high doses, which people shouldnt be using anyway.

Now, there are people taking PGD2 blocks (orally i believe), that is dangerous. Maybe its not, but its a hell of a risk if theyre dosing up. We still dont know the full function of PGd2 throughout the body. HOWEVER, i can think of one company testing OC orally for asthma with no sides, its very promising. That is what is urging people to take it, but Ive yet to see any info about dosage in regards to hair.

Things like copper, can be toxic at high levels. But is being used in commercially available treatments out there, albeit in small doses.

Then there is equol, which obviously effects serum DHT levels. Im very curious about it, but also wary as so far I've only seen studies on rats! Thats a big no for me. Noone has yet to convince me as to WHY it wont have the same sides as fin. But there are people taking it, and dosing up big time.

None of these things should be considered lightly, and generally people are looking to the hopefully near future with Histogen and others.

I can understand what you're saying, but we take risks everyday in life. This is just one more calculated risk. I would also say you are not of sound mind, visiting this forum everyday and repeating yourself endlessly about fin and minox to make yourself feel better. To me, that is mad. Trying these other treatments is a different kind of madness.

Now, consider this (and no offence). As a woman, lets say youre in your 20s. You are offered a drug that saves your hair but there is a chance it can make you infertile, and there is a slight smaller chance it could take years to be normal again. Also a tiny chance you would never be able to breast feed, unless you have some kind of surgery to fix it. Would you do it?

Im considering fin, but also considering other non oral DHT treatments. And im very interested in things like AHK copper combined with minox.

[25 going on 65]

It totally amazes me that guys who refuse to take Finasteride because they are terrified of the possibility of sexual side effects would even consider touching Spiro. It shows just how severely misinformed these guys are.

Another thing that amazes me is that these guys would rather take something with no appropriate establishment of safety over Finasteride. These are not things that a person who is sound of mind does.

Well in this case I think he isn't familiar with all these treatments which is why he's asking about them here. I think he's making a wise choice in doing that rather than just jumping on some new meds without doing his research first

It's guys who make their first post on hair loss forums saying "my experience after 3 years on oral spiro" who would really blow my mind!

[MrBlonde]

I am in the same boat as the OP. Stressed and constantly worrying about my thinning hair but looking for something that wont mess up another part of my body.

I appreciate your advise Tracy and have no doubt you are more experienced in this area than me but I'm not going to start a treatemnt to stop one problem only to start another more serious problem in another area.

I won't consider anything else other than natural stuff like Toco8 right now and it will possibly cost me a lot of hair opposed to being on Fin but there is now way I'm dicking around with my pecker (ba dum dum tiss, I'm here all week).

The funny thing is I have started my own vitiman reigem. I'm not sure if its doing much up top. I still see two or three hairs on the pillow in the morning and some fall out if I run a comb or my fingers through my hair but I am constantly feeling fantastic downstairs. Amazingly senestive feeling erections.

I do a lot of excercise, including weights and running and I dont sleep very well with my insomnia. I would often go through cycle of crap libido. I would still get hard morning and night but it was a lifeless and pleasure free erection and climax. I had no idea how long it would last when it struck, sometimes a month and then you'd get maybe a week of sensitivity only to return to sex being a chore due to pleasureless climaxes, it was not watery or anything like I hear about fin, just lifeless....

.... but since I stared the vitman cycle I feel amazing in that department all the tie and my sleeping has improved. I cant wait to see my girlfriend next weekend. I hope she is ready for a serious workout

[Tracy C]

I don't want to add fuel to this fire but I think Conpecia is referring to topical Spiro not oral Spiro which does not have the same systematic absorption.

If I were a guy there is no way I would even touch Spiro.

There is a damn good chance fin will cause sexual side effects.

The legitimate data does not support that in any way shape or form. Maybe it is higher than Merck claims, but it is obvious that it is not as high as the fear mongers are claiming. Then there is also the very strong evidence that much of this is psychosomatic. You can ignore the data all day long but ignoring that data does not change what that data says. It just is what it is.

[UK_]

Then there is also the very strong evidence that much of this is psychosomatic. You can ignore the data all day long but ignoring that data does not change what that data says. It just is what it is.

Reduced sperm count psychosomatic? How does that work?

Gynecomastia psychosomatic? How does that work?

Also... where is the 'strong evidence'? Because from what I can see on propeciahelp, there's more clinical attention surrounding ACTUAL sides as opposed to psychosomatic sides.

While some forms of ED can be psychogenic, those that are experiencing such phenomena usually still encounter nocturnal and morning erections, however PFS sufferers have absent morning & nocturnal erections & significantly reduced sensitivity.

The body will also upregulate androgen receptors in light of your attempts to manage your own endocrine system.

[Tracy C]

Do you bother to actually read what I write? No, obviously you don't. If you are not going to bother to read the whole thing, don't respond.