FUE and the short hair cut

[Follicle Death Row]

In fairness Sausage that's only 1500 but I must admit it looks phenominal. It seems to me Dr. Feller takes a smart conservative approach with FUE. If you do a max first time session of FUE of say 1500 and you get only 60% yield well you've only wasted 600 but if you were to go straight in and blast out 3000 and got a 60% yield you're looking at double the hair lost for good at around 1200 FU.

If you did 1000 on a norwood 2 and it gave poor yield you could change to strip next time and you would only have lost 400.

Personally I'd love to have FUE not so I could shave down all over but so I could have the back and sides really short which is the way I like it. Kind of like how Sean who had 3000 FUE done by Dr. Rahal likes to keep his hair. Unfortunately I think I'll probably need all the hair I can get down the line which would mean stripping out for 8000-9000 would make the most sense and then looking to add 2000 FUE afterwards. The really sucky thing is my father had a full head of hair until 35 and then it started to go and by 45 he was a nw5/6 and has remained that way since. I'm 26 in April and a nw2.5 I'd say so I anticipate heading towards a 6. Unfortunately I think I have my mother's fine greying hair. My father has thick donor hairs so I just seem to lose on every front hair wise. Worst hair genetics ever.

Joe and Spex, what sort of yield do you guys think is typical of the best FUE docs? I know it depends on the patient but ballpark? 80%? 85%? 90%? I often hear it's about 95% for FUT with 6000 available by FUE alone and 8000-9000 by strip alone.

[topcat]

Sausage your result will be determined by the clinic that you choose. With a top clinic you should experience yield of 90+% most importantly speak with patients that have had the procedure performed and ask them about their experience. Ask them about their yield and any visible scarring.

Of course it’s good to ask those that work in the industry but speak to the actual customers.

[sausage]

In fairness Sausage that's only 1500 but I must admit it looks phenominal. It seems to me Dr. Feller takes a smart conservative approach with FUE. If you do a max first time session of FUE of say 1500 and you get only 60% yield well you've only wasted 600 but if you were to go straight in and blast out 3000 and got a 60% yield you're looking at double the hair lost for good at around 1200 FU.

I fairness.....

Spex wrote:

"Im confused too. Where has this been mentioned that you cant cut your hair short via FUE ?"

This clearly states he thinks short haircuts + FUE DO NOT go together.

Here he does not mention number of grafts and in the other post on the other thread he does not mention grafts numbers:

"You clearly have not seen FUE/ HT surgery shaved down in person . Its evident that 'something' has been done - its not 100% natural and when shaved to the bone especially a HT can create more issues than you realise. FUE CAUSES scaring whether you want to believe it or not. HT causes scaring minimal in most cases but scaring can be evident"

So clearly he has contradicted himself.

Anyway even if he was talking in numbers of grafts, from what he wrote in the other thread FUE causes scarring so even if you have a smaller amount of grafts your still going to get scarring, it is not going to stop scarring if you have 1500-2500 grafts. + if a large amount of grafts looks bad shaved down then a smaller amount of grafts will obviously look bad shaved down, its the same FUE procedure.

I think Spex needs to explain why he has written opposing thoughts on whether he thinks FUE and the short haircut works........

[Spex]

To clarify - rather than have my words twisted any further in reference to my comments here and the other day which were in context of the subject. This guy seems to want to take my words out of context for some reason..Maybe its cause he simply is very confused..

I was referring to shaving all your hair down to the bone in your topic after a HT and informed that this is not a recommended or an advisable approach if the aim is to get a HT and invest 10, 000 's of £ only to only then shave it all off very short or to the bone.The fact of the matter IS a HT needs length to do its job and create the 'illusion' so having a HT and shaving it all off is absolutely pointless in my honest opinion as there WILL be scaring with any type of surgery. Be aware.

In relation to the other topic started by Topcat, i simply was clarifying what was meant by his post as with FUE surgery when performed correctly and extractions form a relatively small surgery are distributed appropriately hair in the donor region in fact can be worn short on a grade 1 0r 2 for example as shown. However there is scaring! FACT. This was from only 1500 FUE. You cant just keep going in again and again without clear evidence especially on this grade after surgery.

Your confusion possibly is the fact FUE patients can wear the donor hair short on a grade 1 and 2 and some even shorter when appropriate surgery and size surgeries are performed but be aware scaring will still reside, its there. How visible the scaring is depends on numerous factors.

A HT shaved down in the recipient area on a grade 1 or 2 can look unnatural in my honest opinion ( all depends on the individual, all their variables and their HT design and approach) and most definitely when a patient shaves his head to the bone after any surgery which is what i ACTUALLY said if you read my comments. If you want that risk, you take it but at least you are now informed.

FUE causes scaring. It does, its surgery. Can you wear your hair shorter with FUE than strip, YES. ( generally speaking) Can you wear your hair to the bone after multiple FUE surgeries NO, in my opinion. If your goal is to have multiple surgeries via FUE and shave all your hair off, pointless in my opinion and THAT was the point i was making in your topic.

I think you need to see patients in person who have had EXACTLY what is is you are aiming to achieve.

Might i ask:
1. How old are you?
2. What NW level are you?
3. Please can you upload pics of recipient and donor region?
4. Are you on medication to prevent further loss?
5.How long have you been researching HT's?
6. How many HT's have you seen in person live in the flesh ?

[topcat]

I would agree shaving to the bone might present a problem so small sessions over time while constantly evaluating the donor area is the safest way to proceed.

Speaking from my own experience I have had approximately 500 beard hair extraction by way of fue from an area approximately 10-12 sq cm around the chin which is a fairly concentrated space. I have no visible scarring to my face. Everything looks perfectly normal and the yield was extremely high.

Does this mean your result will be the exactly the same? This can only be determined by actually having the procedure and assessing your own results and I would suggest going very, very small in that first procedure.

My personal opinion is that clinics performing fue on the face and chest have taken the procedure to a higher level because most but not all already have the natural skill to perform the procedure. Not everyone has this ability and many should not be practicing this technique because these are the results with low yields and white dotting in a high percentage of cases.

Always ask about any non disclosure statements that need to be signed.

Ask the clinic if they have ever been sued.

Ask the clinic if they have ever sued a patient.

Ask the clinic if they have ever sued a forum.

Ask the clinic if they have ever sued a current or former employee.

Just a few of the uncomfortable questions that need asking before and not after you procedure.

[topcat]

After getting a chance to listen to that last segment of the show dated 01/5/12 I realize why some of the comments I heard got me so heated. Regardless of how heated I was I should have showed more restraint especially with the name calling as I know more than most it’s not necessary when just addressing the questions, statements or concerns is all that is required.

Jotronic you refuted the comment that fue could be used to give the shadow of a hairline with the rest of the hair shaved fairly close to the scalp as it does not exist and seems to just be an internet rumor. This is clearly false as I have seen results such as this and better in person and several such cases have been posted to the internet. To say you have not seen these cases might very well be true but it does make me wonder when I hear that statement coming from a strip only clinic.

Spencer also stated that he has not seen this type of result but just previous to your response he is the one who brought it up as being an option but then was relegated to saying it was just theory.

Jotronic I would disagree with your statement about density being the main concern when avoiding scarring in the donor area. Most of the scarring I have seen has not been so much from reducing density from its original so much but using punches that were too large along with a very poor extraction pattern. Of course density matters but I would be more concerned with these two issues firstly.

How can anyone believe FUE in not definitely beneficial for many cases after it’s been out close to 10 years now? But it can only be beneficial in the right hands of which there are probably less than 5 and of those 5 even fewer that can offer everything else one should be looking for in a clinic.

Jotronic why may I ask does your clinic have all these FUE tools, what is the purpose?

A guarantee of growth which states a full refund if it does not grow is not necessarily a guarantee of growth. It’s a guarantee of getting your money back. I have seen my share of strip cases where there was a failure of growth or full yield. I’m not blaming it on the clinic or the procedure itself as sometimes it’s just the patient for whatever reasons unknown. This is why in my opinion a small FUE procedure is always the safest way to dip your toe in the water and I don’t think this fact can be argued.

When you say you don’t offer FUE because it can’t give the same result you should be more specific. Your clinic does not seem to have the necessary skill to offer it which is still good as they are good at what they do offer. As far as mega sessions of course strip would make more sense but that should be clearly stated as a reason why strip would be preferred. If we are talking about a young guy that needs 2000-3000 grafts why on earth would someone push them into having a strip procedure? It’s unconscionable in my opinion.

Some clinics do offer both procedures and they are equally highly skilled at each. They also have the ethics to advise the patient on the best course of action without the bait and switch. Let’s not blanket them all into one neat little group because of several bad players.

When I stated I was no one it was meant to make a personal statement. Most prospective patients make the mistake of just listening to those that work in the industry or have credentials that seem impressive to them. It’s a pet peeve of mine as I know that this is simply not true and it is not unique to the HT industry. The fitness and nutrition industry as well as many others industries work the same way. Over 90% of what you read about fitness and nutrition is complete bullshit as the only way to make money in that business is by selling the lie and those that do it best wear the white coat or flash the credentials. My own experience and knowledge in this area makes those experts look pathetic. But people still buy into the aura of the expert in the white coat.

Jotronic I think you are a good guy and certainly not a scumbag. You’re above some of the comments you made but maybe you truly believe them. If that’s the case I think you are completely wrong. I will try to stop speaking in code, I guess I get that from what I perceive as an industry that is filled with dark secrets and only those that work in the industry know exactly what I’m am saying, while many posters are just perplexed by my messages.

It is not my goal to try and hurt someone or take away their right to make a living and I could care less how much they make. I’m just tired of seeing young guys getting screwed over for a few dollars. I mean really is the money that GD important.

As far as some of these FUE clinics that are doing poor work I have the following list of questions prospective patients should be asking which should be included to their current list of questions. It bears repeating.


Have you ever been sued by a patient if so how many times and please provide details.



Have you ever sued a patient if so how many times and please provide details.



Have you ever sued a forum if so how many times and please provide details.



Have you ever sued an employee or former employee, if so how many times and please provide details.



Will I need to sign a lengthy non disclosure statement regarding my own procedure and if so why.

[HelpROGER]

Yawwwwwn. Please, young guys are supposed to take the advice of a hotheaded old man who cant even comprehend what’s being said on a radio show??? PALEEEESE!

[topcat]

No Roger they would be better served listening to an inexperienced mama’s boy for advice. Your postings make absolutely no sense and contribute zero to the forum do you even realize that?

I know your mother did your research, found the forum and the rest is history. You still know zero.

[Still-Researching]

Will not judge anyone here or take sides. Just say that I have seen in the flesh at least two who have done exactly what Topcat is describing:

Two guys who got FUE 1200-2000 grafts in temples by a top IAHRS FUE doc and shaved down to a 1-2 grade clipper all over and it looked great, they had no tell signs, so it is possible.

I have recently got a app 2400 FUE to my hair line by the same doc, my plan is not to shave it close, but I hope to have the option if I want one day, will be happy to share my views in 12 months from now.

I feel this discussion is the similar, as 5-10 years ago, when nobody believed in mega-sessions for strip, and it was said generally that this could not be done, but now many docs can do it.

FUE of 1000 is done by at least 20 top docs with good results, 1500+ is done by a hand full of docs (max) in the world with good results, but of course that means that for many docs, it is not possible/recommendable - which is the truth.

Also if you go to a second class doc and do this, you are in for some serious trouble and of course if "victims" of this are coming constantly to H&W then I do appreciate Jotronics comments (have a lot of respect for both H&W and Jotronic) but it does not mean that it is impossible to do it.

[didi]

http://www.fotopersbureauhca.nl/img-...-001-16775.htm

Looks like it is possible to razor shave after HT


This would not be possible with traditional methods