Nanogen's "VEGF"

[andy1965]

It sounds like bull-shit, but has anyone tried out Nanogen's new anti-hairloss concoction, apparently predicated on the idea of using VEGF, rather than minoxidil, to increase blood-supply to hair-follicles?

http://www.nanogenhair.com/hair-growth-serum.htm

Not sure why you think it's bullshit, unless of course you know nothing about hair loss. There are lots of papers including one from Harvard showing hair growth. What I'm impressed with is that they use actual growth factor (not peptides like all others before them)

I'm defending Nanogen as they seem to be doing some innovative work. I'm sure they want to make a profit but does every drug company. Maybe if people actually did research and properly evaluated the bullshit stuff from the pioneering stuff then good companies would have more research money.

Minoxidil is not so unique anymore. The mechanism of action is known. Growth factors work in a different way. They could work in harmony.

Search VEGF and Harvard.

[HairTalk]

Not sure why you think it's bullshit, unless of course you know nothing about hair loss. There are lots of papers including one from Harvard showing hair growth. What I'm impressed with is that they use actual growth factor (not peptides like all others before them)

I'm defending Nanogen as they seem to be doing some innovative work. I'm sure they want to make a profit but does every drug company. Maybe if people actually did research and properly evaluated the bullshit stuff from the pioneering stuff then good companies would have more research money.

Minoxidil is not so unique anymore. The mechanism of action is known. Growth factors work in a different way. They could work in harmony.

Search VEGF and Harvard.

I think it's bull-shit because it looks to be another magic-potion item that's marketed with buzzwords like, "V.E.G.F." and "growth factors" — exotic, scientific-sounding terms that land with just enough familiarity on the ears of persons who periodically Google news on hairloss-treatment.

You defer to some papers and imply you have a bit of knowledge (at least more than I) about hairloss; cite the papers and share your knowldge — don't haughtily ask me to search for a couple of terms.

V.E.G.F. works within the body to promote the formation of blood vessels; to my knowledge, no scientific study (to May, 2011) demonstrates that any form of the compound, applied topically or taken orally, is effective in halting or reversing hairloss. Again, if your knowledge outreaches this, back it up.

Finally, the "peptides" you've casually brushed off your shoulder are what compose a great number of "growth factors"; I'm uncertain why you appear to dismiss the former while applauding the latter.

[andy1965]

I don't want to get into a flaming row. Let's not get personal. I mean disrespect to you. I am a scientist and studied biochemistry.

You replied "I think it's bull-shit because it looks to be another magic-potion item that's marketed with buzzwords like, "V.E.G.F." and "growth factors" — exotic, scientific-sounding terms that land with just enough familiarity on the ears of persons who periodically Google news on hairloss-treatment."

It may look like another potion but it isn't like that. Whilst I understand your frustration (along with mine) at the number of snake oil products, PLEASE do not tarnish this technology with the same brush. VEGF does 100% increase angiogenesis (blood supply proliferation). There is no debate about this. Saying a product contains VEGF or growth factors is not using a buzzword. I fail to see your complaint.

Now peptides are different. This is where your scepticism should be. Most are totally unsuitable and umproven (even in vitro or theoretically). That's the bullshit buzzwords where I share your frustration. Peptide just means small amino acid chains. It's true that growth factors or cytokines are composed of protein like structures but peptide that i meant in the everyday sense in hairloss are all smoke and mirrors in my view. Its ironic and with respect tragic that you buy into peptides but not GF.

If you look at the best argument for peptide mechanism of action, it is actually to mimic growth factors! VEGF is the real thing. I'm passionate as I don't want this technology stiffled by understandable but still misguided cynacism. Just be careful of confusing real growth factor with fake growth factor mimicking peptides. There are also lots of growth factors and you need to be very careful with you use (some upregulate and some downregulate different cellular actions). That's the problem with peptides. They are too broad brush.

As for studies, I was talking to the people at Nanogen at ISHRS and trust me they are serious. Trials are underway but they are not cheap nor fast. Plus you have the dilemma if they work!!! Makes it a drug and therefore can't be sold!! Sometimes informal unpublished studies take place between leading doctors and the word spreads to allow products to sell as cosmetics. I must confess that I never knew about this world until I went there but it makes sense.

If you look at Nanogen growth factor. It's is declared as real VEGF. Not herbal ingredient that increases body production of VEGF or peptide that purports to mimic VEGF. Like Coke, it's the real thing. And synthesised in plants. All very clever stuff that must have cost a fortune. This is very exciting. Maybe other companies are moving in this direction too.

I wish u good wishes as a fellow sufferer navigating the murky snake oil waters.

I can't list papers as no access to pubmed but there are lots including a study by Harvard medical school (or associated hospital). It is very well known that VEGF promotes blood supply.

[andy1965]

Haha. I meant to write "I mean no disrespect". Rubbish at typing!

[UK_]

We know VEG-F induces angiogenesis and promotes blood supply - but how does this deal with a disease that has its roots in genetics? Kind of like hosing down a carpet to clean it, we know it wont be effective for long (as Minoxidil has shown), and I dont see how this will help grow new hair. We know VegF is upregulated in most cancers, so where is the excessive hair growth in skin cancer?

Also, there are no studies, I couldn't find any, you'd think the company would shove any official studies in the face of consumers, the mere fact that there exists an ambiguity about the claims of this product signals snake oil to me.

HairTalk is right, a lot of companies are using sophisticated "buzz words" to sell their products, none of them work, check out CyGenX to see what I mean, if you're going to use growth factors then alright, lets see some studies into safety and efficacy - what's wrong with demanding that as a consumer? I'm not going to blindly trust some faceless money grabbing corporation am I? - Who would be stupid enough to do that? Too many people have lost out at the hands of these ruthless, vindictive, lying scumbag corporations that sell snake oil on the basis of faith, sorry, I have no faith in any of them until they can prove what they state. I dont blame the people who buy these products, they're desperate and companies exploit that thoroughly, they just need to understand that any product that truly works would be all over "google news" worldwide within a matter of minutes.

[HairTalk]

I don't want to get into a flaming row. Let's not get personal. I mean disrespect to you. I am a scientist and studied biochemistry.

You replied "I think it's bull-shit because it looks to be another magic-potion item that's marketed with buzzwords like, "V.E.G.F." and "growth factors" — exotic, scientific-sounding terms that land with just enough familiarity on the ears of persons who periodically Google news on hairloss-treatment."

It may look like another potion but it isn't like that. Whilst I understand your frustration (along with mine) at the number of snake oil products, PLEASE do not tarnish this technology with the same brush. VEGF does 100% increase angiogenesis (blood supply proliferation). There is no debate about this. Saying a product contains VEGF or growth factors is not using a buzzword. I fail to see your complaint.

Now peptides are different. This is where your scepticism should be. Most are totally unsuitable and umproven (even in vitro or theoretically). That's the bullshit buzzwords where I share your frustration. Peptide just means small amino acid chains. It's true that growth factors or cytokines are composed of protein like structures but peptide that i meant in the everyday sense in hairloss are all smoke and mirrors in my view. Its ironic and with respect tragic that you buy into peptides but not GF.

If you look at the best argument for peptide mechanism of action, it is actually to mimic growth factors! VEGF is the real thing. I'm passionate as I don't want this technology stiffled by understandable but still misguided cynacism. Just be careful of confusing real growth factor with fake growth factor mimicking peptides. There are also lots of growth factors and you need to be very careful with you use (some upregulate and some downregulate different cellular actions). That's the problem with peptides. They are too broad brush.

As for studies, I was talking to the people at Nanogen at ISHRS and trust me they are serious. Trials are underway but they are not cheap nor fast. Plus you have the dilemma if they work!!! Makes it a drug and therefore can't be sold!! Sometimes informal unpublished studies take place between leading doctors and the word spreads to allow products to sell as cosmetics. I must confess that I never knew about this world until I went there but it makes sense.

If you look at Nanogen growth factor. It's is declared as real VEGF. Not herbal ingredient that increases body production of VEGF or peptide that purports to mimic VEGF. Like Coke, it's the real thing. And synthesised in plants. All very clever stuff that must have cost a fortune. This is very exciting. Maybe other companies are moving in this direction too.

I wish u good wishes as a fellow sufferer navigating the murky snake oil waters.

I can't list papers as no access to pubmed but there are lots including a study by Harvard medical school (or associated hospital). It is very well known that VEGF promotes blood supply.

I, too, don't want to tread into anything personal or to take arms in a flame-war. Please, re-read what I wrote: I did not call into question whether V.E.G.F. promotes angiogenesis; I said there's no evidence that it halts or reverses hairloss. Is there? Don't try to throw at me that increased blood-supply will help address alopecia, either; show me the evidence that V.E.G.F. fights hairloss in an apreciable way.

Saying your product contains V.E.G.F., growth-factor, etc. is exactly using buzz-words to generate interest in your item. There is no indication the compound you're citing will have a positive implication in the treatment you're after; you're just hoping your doing so will pull in a few more customers. By the way, "growth factor" is about as vague and generic a term as, "stuff."

Again, what piece of my post suggested to you that I "buy into" peptides? Let me allay your concern: I don't. I don't believe pouring "growth factor" or V.E.G.F. into a topical syrup is of any value, either, though.

This is your citation: "I was talking to the people at Nanogen [...] and trust me they are serious [sic]"? No, I won't trust you. Sorry.

[doke]

nanogen are they saying to use a dermoroller with there topical?

[UK_]

LOL yeah - probably to make their product appear more like the cure - come on people - this shit has been on the market for too long for us to still be considering if it works or not lol.

LOL what next? Bifidus hair growth serum with dermaroller? lmfao

[andy1965]

Rollers would make sense as growth factor molecules are larger than 500 daltons so will not absorb across skin without mechanical pemetration enhancer although they could absorb down hair follicles. If they didn't say penetration would be enhanced by dermarolling, youd be saying they were scamming. Also there is good science to the idea of wounding leading to the release of WNT proteins that can aid hair follicle health. I think the Pensylvania research was Dr Cotseralis.

Seems that unless a licensed drug, some posters will always cry 'snake oil'. I just don't think it's as clear cut as that. Maybe you want to wait 7 years for licensing or wait for a drug company to invest in something that might not be patentable!!

I did have a quick search for that article I mentioned. It was from the hospital attached to Harvard.

Blood Vessels and Thicker Hair Growth
Researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) have been able to grow hair faster and thicker on mice thanks to a protein that promotes blood vessel growth in their skin. The mouse hair follicles – while no greater in number than those of normal mice – are individually bigger. Collectively, they increase the total volume of hair by 70 percent, the MGH research team reports in the Feb. 19 Journal of Clinical Investigation.
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Baldness

If the protein has the same powers in humans, it could lead to the first angiogenic therapy for male pattern baldness. “In male pattern hair loss, it’s not that the follicles are gone. They’re just miniature follicles,” says Michael Detmar, MD, associate professor of dermatology at MGH and lead author on the study. “If anyone could find a way to make the follicles bigger, men might grow hair again.” The discovery that increasing blood flow to the scalp helps stave off baldness may be old news to many barbers. For years, they have been advising clients to massage their scalps as way of stimulating circulation and hair growth.

A few scientific studies have suggested that people with hair loss may have fewer blood vessels. But no one had actually measured how closely blood vessel growth is correlated with hair growth, or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place.

To explore these questions, Kiichiro Yano, a research associate in dermatology at MGH, and his colleagues compared two groups of mice, one normal and one genetically programmed to produce an abundance of a protein known to trigger blood vessel growth, VEGF. The VEGF-enhanced mice grew hair faster and thicker in the first two weeks of life than did the control mice.

The VEGF-enhanced mice also regrew hair faster. Shaved 8 week-old VEGF-mice not only grew hair back sooner, they exhibited a 30 percent increase in hair follicle diameter 12 days after depilation. “By overall volume, the hair was about 70 percent thicker than in wild-type mice,” says Detmar. Blood vessels located in the skin surrounding the pumped-up hair follicles were 40% larger in diameter than those found in normal mice, suggesting that the VEGF-mediated angiogenesis was causing the hair to grow faster and thicker.

When normal mice were treated with an antibody that blocks VEGF activity and then shaved, their hair grew back slower and was thinner than their untreated littermates. Twelve days after depilation, the VEGF-deprived mice still displayed bald spots and overall reduced hair growth. “So by modulating VEGF, we can directly influence the size of the hair,” says Detmar.

As for how the VEGF-inspired blood vessels are plumping up the hair shafts, the researchers believe they may be delivering an extra supply of growth factors, in addition to oxygen and nutrients. Detmar and his colleagues are developing a technique to deliver VEGF topically to the scalp. “The question now is can we, by this method, improve hair growth in humans,” he says. “Applying it to humans will be the big challenge.”

Lawrence F. Brown, MD, associate professor of pathology at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, also authored the paper.

The Massachusetts General Hospital, established in 1811, is the original and largest teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School. The MGH conducts the largest hospital-based research program in the United States, with an annual research budget of more than $200 million and major research centers in AIDS, the neurosciences, cardiovascular research, cancer, cutaneous biology, transplantation biology and photo-medicine.

[KeepTheHair]

I don't give a rats ass about blood flow. Thats not my scalps problem. Hair loss is.

This garbage is most likely completely useless.