Long-term bonding with maximum freedom?

[AGAssi]

Hey guys,
I'm 36 (from Germany) and have been wearing hair systems for 9 years now. I'm new here on the board and can share a whole bunch of good and bad experience I collected over my hair-wearing years. (I'll also hand in later my complete story of my hairloss in the suitable sub-forum. Actually I'm immensely pissed off by my development, but that's a different story...)

When, 2 years ago, my hair loss proceded heavily into sides and back, I decided to go for a full cap, 14 inch curly stlye, by the way. As I hesitated to shave my long curly back (and thus couldn't tape the lace full cap down there) because I wanted to integrare my own hair (e.g. for a pony-tail for work) I sewed an elastic band in the back, so it would firmly hold without glue... it looked fine and so... but was not the optimum.

So I finally decided to shave off everything and tape down the complete perimeter, but in the nape, the lace becomes loose only after two days. So I have to face the annoying full cap tape down routine like every 24 or 48 hours, which drives me insane!

When I wore a topper, back then, I remember I achieved tape bonding up to 5 days... more wasn't possible because the various tapes I used totally dissolved, got gooey and made the wig hair sticky, as well as eyebrows, or parts of my skin where the glue wouldn't belong. When working out and showering often, it got even worse. I would feel "fresh and clean" after I shower on day 3. I envied collegues who enjoyed their evening shower after workout, feel like reborn, leaving me with itching and gooeyness on my head. And yes, I have kinda oily skin.

But, online, I've also read a lot about fellow hair wearers who say they work out on an almost daily base, go swimming, or even camping in the wild (Lord, how I'd LOVE that independence again) for 10+ days or so, and still feel clean and tidy on their heads.

I WANT THAT!
I want to be satisfied with maybe one hour of work (clean-up and taping down again) every 14 days, and then LIVE me life and forget that I have a wig on my head. I want to be able to wear my medium or long hairstyle open in the winds, ENJOY nature and running, go showering and feel prepared and confident for a dinner party or a date afterwards.

So let's talk about long-term bonding. I'd appreciate your input about:
1. which tape or glue do you use, and how?
2. how long wearing times can you achieve (with sweating, work-out, showering, swimming), and till which day is everything "easy going"? When is day X, when it starts becoming messy?
3. what is your clean-up procedure like? especially how do you get gooey tape/glue residue out of your systems? (I know about the mirror slide, but I find the system kinda suffers from the sliding... in terms of shedding).

[lvlace]

AGAssi..........

Rather than write a lengthy reply to points 1-3, I will refer you to some of my posts on the HD forum last November. On that forum I sign in as "mjt." The HD thread began as a "synthetic hair" post by another member but evolved into a discussion about my procedures wearing a hp which address some of your issues. I posted replies on Nov 11 (2X), and Nov 12-14. Link: http://www.hairdirect.com/community/...howThread.aspx

In the USA I do workout 7X/week. I am presently in SE Asia. This is the hottest time of the year. Temperatures have ranged from 96f to 100f. Humidity from high to off the chart. I still workout provided that I have access to facilities such as a gym and/or pool. I have yet to workout in an air conditioned gym. Yesterday I was on a treadmill for 45 minutes. Outside temp (7am) 86f. Gym temp....at least 86f. Humidity....oppressive! Today I swam 100 pool lengths (probably 1 mile+). My last attachment was 30 days ago. It is still as good as day one. Next detach will probably be in 2 weeks.

If you have additional questions after reading the HD posts just ask. I will try to respond within a day or two.

[AGAssi]

Hello lvlace,
thank you for your reply and the very useful link of yours. What you write would be a dream-come-true to me if I could handle it the way you do. Too good to be true.

I have a whole bunch of questions deriving from your post:

SYNTHETIC vs. HUMAN HAIR

As the linked thread is originally about synthetic hair you only refer to synthetic hair. But, luckily you say, that you treat synthetic and human wig hair the same. As for me, synthetic hair does not seem to be an option. I once tried it and ordered a full lace wig with all synthetic hair (heat resistent, high quality) from a distributor at AliExpress, but was kinda disappointed:

First of all, they did the colour wrong so it didn't match my eyebrows and beard. I have a mixture of medium and dark brown tone, and they made the custom unit almost black. Further, they said they couldn't do loose curls as desired, so they sent me straight hair that I should process with heat. So did I, but the heat-curls only hold until next shower time, then they are straight again.

Another problem about synthetic hair is that I must use dark hair for my type. And as you mentioned, knots cannot be bleached. So that's a knock-out criterium for me. You are right in saying that those synthetic hairs are very fine and thin, I like it a lot, also that they achieved a heavy density by the production process. But the dark knots kill it for me, unfortunately.

Problem no.3 was, that this seller only offered 18+ inch whereas I prefer to wear about 14 inch (or maybe shorter, depends on the style). When I unwrapped the parcel, the ends of the synthetic(!) hair were already tangled(!), that means I couldn't run my fingers through it without getting stuck in heavy knots of hair strands... I carefully combed it through, strand by strand, until it was free of tangles for the moment. Before wearing it for the first time, I shampooed it. When washing, the tangling became horrible!!! Loads of conditioning and oils could hardly rescue it. I ended up, cutting the hopelessly tangels end and trimming the complete wig from 18 to 16 inches, until it was tangle-free again... After the next wash, it was the same mess again... so I subsequently cut it further, until it was 14... and then 12 inches... tangling still the same... (even before I had a single day of wearing it. It seems that my synthetic - and also human - hair ist most likely to tangle after contact with water).

So, as in the end, I'm actually no longer very hopeful about the synthetic approach, I think I'd stay with human hair for a moment (unless you can recommend synthetic (dark) hair which hasn't the issues mentioned above), the question is:

=> Would you say, your succesful long-term bonding would work the same with human hair?

My CURRENT TWO PROBLEMS are:

1. With my current AliExpress seller (base material, specifications like colour, wave, density are perfect, that's why I stick to him), the human hair looks great (initially!) and stays like that for some weeks, but then rapidly starts tangling and even really felting to a total mess (After 8 weeks I can throw it in the bin!) No matter how carefully I treat it. That sucks! I first thought it could have to do with the 14 inch length that I wear. But I also cut the human hair successively down the even 3 inches in the back (at the nape) and it the 3 inch hairs still tangle with each other there! Maybe this MIGHT have to do with the hair being damaged before and if I had kept it short from the start, it wouldn't have tangled.
By the way, the human hair quality I'm talking about is labeled "6A grade hair unprocessed bla bla..." ... after exchanging some mails with the seller, he used 8A hair for the upcoming order, charged me a slight extra cost... but from my gut I'd say all that 6A, 7A, 8A talk is just some made-up classification, sales-talk... or am I wrong? I doubt that the current 8A order will solve the tangling issue.

When corresponding with the seller, I had made the assumption that by V-knotting the human hair (cannot exactly tell from current wig, but seems like V-knots) the cuticles are running in opposite directions, thus are foredoomed to tangle (when the cuticles open more and more after weeks). By this logic, by the way, synthetic hair - which has no cuticle at all - shouldn't tangle at all. But with my synthetic wig is does tangle heavily

He said, with the 8A hair quality it is made clear that - as I desired - all cuticles are running in the same direction. Hm, maybe as you do ventilating by yourself (which I find amazing, I regard that a fulltime job?!), do you think it is possible to easily knot human hair in a way that all cuticles run in the same direction? (By the way, ANY cheap seller on AliExpress told me, when asked, that all cuticles run in the same direction. Can that be true? Or is an easier ventilation a cost-safer in low-budget production?)

Furthermore - ooh it's getting lengthy now - I wear curly human hair, which of cause has a permanent wave in it. Can that be the reason for tangling because the cuticles get permanently damaged by the perm.

Bottom line to issue no.1: Is the reason for tangling of the human hair:
(a) wrong ventilation?
(b) cheap hair quality?
(c) length?
(d) permament wave? Do YOU wear straight or curly hair?

If I could solve this issue with an affordable full cap, so I can wear it for like 5 or 6 months in a row, I'd be much happier.

2. Even more important:
With the tape I'm using right now (Walker no-shine tape) I feel untidy, unclean, unfresh after sweating and showering. So I'm very amazed and interested, that you work out 7x/weeks under hot conditions and feel fine for several weeks That would be AWESOME!!
I used to use Supertape for a while. But non later than on day #6 it got so gooey and the accumulated sweat and sebum made me itch and feel very uncomfortable. So I guess I'd need a tape (or even liquid glue??) that doesn't break down so rapidly.

You already explained, that your routine consists only of Supertape + HD white adhesive resp. Eurobond. I wonder if one could go for white adhesive only (full coverage) so there would only be the light swiss lace lying on the scalp and there would be no "stiff" object like the tape stripes which start itching with time. What do you think? I'd only be very afraid of messy clean-up of the lace after detaching a full coverage with white glue, hm?

Against my oily skin, what do you think of things like scalp protector. Do you use it? Does it any help? It feels hard to even IMAGINE sweating with or without sports for more than 4-5 days without ending in a complete mess. As you say you don't believe that is has to do so much with different body-chemistry but is in most cases a user-operator error, I'd like to learn your way and finally get independent for 10+ days (14 days of feeling fresh and totally clean, even when camping, would ROCK)

[AGAssi]

(seemingly, one cannot edit after a while?)
I forgot to ask you: Do you wear a full cap or is your hp only for the top of your head?

[lvlace]

Very brief reply because I am traveling today. In the next 2-3 days I will try to respond comprehensively.
One comment.....I only referenced synthetic hair because the HD post evolved into a discussion about my procedures. Those procedures are relevant to your original post. In no way was I suggesting that you use synthetic hair. However, in my next reply to you I will address your comments about your experience with synthetic hair.
Will get back you as soon as time allows.

[lvlace]

You write marathon posts! I will try to address the issues in the post. But likely to miss a few.

Full cap and long hair. The most difficult scenario one can imagine. I do not envy you.

Regarding your issues with tangles with synthetic and human hair. Long synthetic hair does tangle. I buy extensions on AliExpress in synthetic and human hair. When ventilating with synthetic which is usually 18" long it is a challenge keeping the hair from tangling. I work with a small amount at a time which helps. Once it is knotted to the lace and cut to length the tangling issues disappear. Mainly because of length. My hair ranges from 1.5 - 4". At those lengths the synthetic hair never tangles. As opposed to human hair which can tangle at any length! I also wear a topper rather than a full cap. Much less hair to deal with.
Have you tried a bleach bath to eliminate tangling? Seems to be popular. HD has an explanation on their site. Look under the "learn" tab and search for "bleach bath." HD also has many female clients. Some have long hair. Post a question in the women's forum about long hair issues. I suggest that you post one simple question. Do not post a long scenario as you did on this forum. More likely to produce some relevant replies.
You asked about what causes tangles. Ventilation is not a factor. Length is a factor. Cuticles running in opposite direct is a factor. Over processed hair, color and curl, also a factor.
When a hair supplier buys cut hair they want to receive the hair in bunches EXACTLY as cut. Meaning, cuticles running in the same direction. Human hair grows with cutticles all running in the same direction. Ideally when ventilating one prefers that the cutticles all align. Human hair only, not synthetic. When I buy human hair I can only assume that the cuticles align. Doubtful that suppliers really care. Particularly those on AliExpress.
Who do you buy from on AliExpress? Are your pieces custom?
You mentioned "V knotting." On skin one can specify "V loop." No idea what v knotting could be when ventilating using lace. With lace only 4 types of knots are typically used: single split, single flat, double split and double flat. I only use the two single knot variants. Single split is great at the hairline because the knot is small. But I do mix in split knots everywhere.

The quality types you mentioned...6 a or 8a etc is also new to me. Probably just something your supplier uses for sales purposes.

Adhesives and tapes.....
When I shampoo I only use a shampoo with sulfates. I use Tresemme. Works great. I don't buy into the hype about non-sulfate shampoos. They are more expensive and they do not clean as well. Sulfate have a purpose in all cleaners.....they make water "wetter" thus increasing the cleaning action. When I shampoo I use a lot of shampoo, and, I push downwards with my fingers and palms towards the scalp thus pushing the shampoo through the lace all the way to the scalp. I then let is sit for at least one minute and then rinse thoroughly. I generally shampoo everyday other day. I guarantee that my scalp remains as clean as the scalps of those who detach weekly.

Gooey mess.....my SuperTape still comes off in strips (wrinkled strips) even after 7 weeks. Very little residue. The liquid adhesive that I use at the hairline is somewhat gooey. I have human hair piece and those I modify with synthetic. Same procedures with both types and exactly the same results. Only difference.....I thoroughly condition the human hair pieces. Synthetic hair does not respond to conditioning. It may reduce static electricity. Nothing more. I do recommend using an ionic hairdryer. Makes all hair less subject to static electricity.
Scalp protector, oily skin.......
Never used a scalp protector. I do have moderately oily skin.
An important factor about wearing a hp........everyone has a different experience. What works for me may not work for you. I have heard complaints by a few SuperTape users who state that it does not hold for even 24 hours! Yet I can go 7 weeks, working out everyday, heavy cardio and swimming, even in a high humidity environments. In fact, I get the best hold in high humidity conditions as opposed to dry conditions. Counter intuitive and opposite of the experiences of other users. However, in the U.S., I do live in the desert SW. Summer temperatures sometimes exceed 115F. Still no problem for me.
If I missed anything regarding this thread, let me know.
Brief comment regarding your new thread "bleaching knots vs concealer....." I have never used a concealer. Zero experience. But from what I have read concealers do not handle moisture well. I cannot imagine a concealer working under a hair piece. What happens when you shampoo, sweat, or swim?
Bleaching knots.....I have bleached knots on human hair pieces at least a dozen times. Best to use a developer that is 30 or 40 strength not 20. Probably does not weaken knots unless you perform multiple bleaches on the same knots.

Grincher mentioned a "single knot" solution. Most likely single split knot.....the smallest knot possible. Even better results if at the hairline the ventilator uses hair that is lighter in value that the hair further back. Also looks more natural IMO. But not always possible with really dark hair pieces such as black. I typically use 5 or more colors when I ventilate near the hairline. And 2-3 colors elsewhere. Works well with light colored hair pieces.

[AGAssi]

Hello lvlace,
I'll get to (for me) the most important thing first:

Knotting techniques: When I used V-knot that was obviously an incorrect expression. What I wanted to say by "V knot" (in analogy to V-loop) that the single hair is somewhat "knotted in the middle", so - logically, i guess? - one half of one and the same hair is running with it's cuticle into the hairpiece and the other half out of it... or can that by ANY knot technique in the middle by avoided?
In contrast to having a knot in the middle, I thought one could (when knotting it to the lace) got of the "wrongly directed" half very close to the knot, resulting in wasting that half/end of the hair...
The knot being in the middle of the natural hair, is actually what I meant with "V knotting".

bleach bath:
I've heard of it once that it could help avoid tangling, but I am very firghtful about damaging my hair colour: I order in a dark to medium (cold) brown-tone, and I'm afraid of getting a reddish result by any kind of bleach touching my hair... is bleach bath really suitable for dark hair w/o risk of getting faulty color all over?

women's forum: good point. will ask there.

AliExpress: I've been ordering with ExceedHair so far. Very contect, except for the tangling. My units are all costum. I had a lot of personal adjustments and request, and they pay attention the each and every of my personal wishes. (like no combs, no straps, no babyhair, exact custom size of the base, perfect colour match, nice texture...)
By the way, I realized (now that I cut my hair to a medium style like this https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...922f04f240.jpg) that my tangling is only in the nape. My frontal and vertex hair is still "like new".

As for the quality ranking, I see a lot of sellers on AliExpress using categories like 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, deriving from well-known AAA rating in other industries. I guess, it should say, better than better than better than better of the best...

Long-term bonding:
The bonding strength between my scalp and tape is perfect and hardly comes off, even if I try, after 7+ days... The problem is between tape and lace. With every time I shower (even w/o shampoo) the front lace get's completely loose from the tape and excess hair gets stuck to the tape, but the lace won't... So after each showering, I'll have to pick the stuck front hairs out of the tape and position and press down the front again...

[lvlace]

Knotting........
The only sentence you wrote that I could understand was your explanation of your "incorrect expression" related to v loop vs v knot. Everything else in the knotting section was incomprehensible. "..cuticle into hair piece........wasting that half/end of the hair... " Is it possible that the auto correct on your device changes what you are typing?
Bleach bath......
Bleach bath has nothing to do with HAIR bleach. Read: http://www.hairdirect.com/resources/...etangling.aspx
AlExpress ExceedHair........
Found ExceedHair on Aliexpress. No tabs on the link worked. No products listed. Zip, Zero!! Non functioning links. No products shown. Perhaps a temporary glitch.
Long term bonding.......
New lace typically is coated with something.....silicone? Something else? Tape does not stick to this coating. It must be removed. 99% alcohol sometimes will work along with some gentle scrubbing. Sometimes a stronger cleaner is needed. GooGone or Autoglym works:

http://googone.com/products/original/

https://www.autoglym.com/custom-wheel-cleaner

Spray on and leave for at least 30 minutes. Both are oily. Clean thoroughly after usage. The coating, or, most of it will likely be removed.
The hair style link you included looks good. If you can duplicate that look you qualify as a hair piece wizard.

[AGAssi]

Knotting........
The only sentence you wrote that I could understand was your explanation of your "incorrect expression" related to v loop vs v knot. Everything else in the knotting section was incomprehensible. "..cuticle into hair piece........wasting that half/end of the hair... " Is it possible that the auto correct on your device changes what you are typing?

No auto-correction, maybe I just put it in bad words. I'll try again:

What I wanted to say is best explained by a picture I just made (see below), deriving from a picture I found on the web. The pont is that the cuticle of each single hair runs always from beginning to end. And no matter which knotting technique I use, the beginning will always remain the beginning, the end will stay the end. Thus, in my opinion, each hair (when knotted in the middle) is condemned to tangle with itsself, isn't it?

I mean, what did I misunderstand concerning knot techniques when you (and many other sources on the web) say human wig hair can be knotted in a way that all cuticles are running in the same direction? How shall that work?



In the picture, on the left side, there's a schematic of a strand of hair with cuticles in the same direction. But, in my opinion, as soon as you knot them to a hp, that order is automatically given up... not?

[AGAssi]

Bleach bath......
Bleach bath has nothing to do with HAIR bleach. Read: http://www.hairdirect.com/resources/...etangling.aspx

Went through desription and videos there. Some questions left:
1. How hot is "extremely hot" water? I have both the possibilty the boil the water to 100°C or just get the hottest possible water from my sink heater, which would be 55°C.
2. If I don't get the exakt Clorax[TM], what is the customery common expression for it to be found a drugstore or household store?
3. As one should measure precisely 1/4 cup, what quantity is that converted to ml?

[lvlace]

I did not write the HD description and I have never used a bleach bath. But, I am quite certain HD means hot tap water......typically 55c or 125f.

Clorox is a company name and also a generic name for household laundry bleach available anywhere. No reason why any laundry bleach manufactured by anyone other than Clorox is significantly different.

Do an internet search for liter to cup conversions. Simple.

[lvlace]

Regarding your 12:32 pm post....

You state:
"I mean, what did I misunderstand concerning knot techniques when you (and many other sources on the web) say human wig hair can be knotted in a way that all cuticles are running in the same direction? How shall that work."
Please reference any post in which I stated that a knot can be created with cuticles running in the same direction. I cannot speak for the "other sources." But I made NO such statement! I said the following: "Ideally when ventilating one prefers that the cuticles all align." No reference is made to the resulting knot. No statement that the cuticles on the hairs emanating from the knot are aligned. Admittedly I should have been more precise with my post. I was referring to the "ventilating" process consistent with our discussion about tangling issues with human vs synthetic hair. The ventilating process is very simple. But, it is a multi step process requiring precision. One mistake with any step in the process will disrupt the process resulting in a failed attempt to execute a knot. The steps in the process include:
1. Hair is held between the thumb and forefinger in a loop (my left hand).
2. The needle/needle holder is grasped by the fingers of my right hand.
3. I thread the needle through a "hole" in the lace under a lace thread and up through an adjacent "hole."
4. The loops of hair grasped by my fingers on my left hand are "brushed" against the barb on the needle catching a hair(s).
5. The direction of the needle is reversed....back through the second "hole" under the lace thread and up through the first "hole" resulting in a loop.
6. The hair is released from the barb and the needle is moved towards "two ends" of the strand of hair pulling the two ends back through the loop completing the knot (single flat knot).
I mention this process because if the hair held between my thumb/forefinger tangles it becomes difficult to pull the hair back through the lace. A reoccurring issue with synthetic hair. Potentially an issue also with human hair. However if the cuticles of the human hair are in the same direction tangling is less likely to happen. But, this does NOT mean that the hair cuticles line up AFTER the knot is tied. Again, I could have been more precise with my original post clarifying that I was referencing a ventilation process not the resultant knot.
In reality the issue of cuticles as it applies to a hair piece is likely moot anyway. When donor hair is procured it is by definition remy virgin hair assuming that the donor never colored or processed their hair in any way. If the hair is to be colored...probably 99.9% of the time...it is my understanding that the remy virgin hair is given an acid bath which strips away the color, and, most likely the cuticle. The hair is then colored. Thus cuticle issues really are unlikely to be an issue as a source of problems. I suspect that if you examine the hair used for your hair piece under a microscope you would likely find few if any cuticles. From a ventilator's perspective cuticles likely to be an issue only when using remy virgin hair.....not colored or processed.

Regarding your diagram. You are correct! The two (or more) strands coming out of the knot do NOT have cuticles running in the same direction. I know of no practical way to create a knot with hair cuticles in the same direction. One would need to cut one strand near the lace thus leaving only one strand remaining. Not practical.

What happened to your source Exceedhair? I can find no website. And their Ailexpress listing does not function. Are they still in business?

[AGAssi]

Hi lvlace,
again very in depth, thank you. Now, I got it. Concerning your question on ExceedHair, you are totally right, I saw it just now. Indeed, they have currently not a single product online.

The only thing I can say is:
I started ordering there, 2 years ago. They had always plenty of wigs on AliExpress. I chose for them because the very attentive to all my special wishes, may it be how I wanted to base to be set-up, texture, color, if or not baby hair included, areas where it should be denser or lighter etc. etc... They wouldn't get tired of my wishes and fulfilled them to all my satisfaction. I found that quite impressive, regarding the fact that we are talking about a cutting-edge LOW-PRICE provider where I actually though detailed customer service like that would be excluded.

6 months ago, however, my contact person there (always the same, no idea, how many people run that company) told me please not to order at ExceedHair anymore but rather contact him directly via WhatsApp. Worked and still works great for me.

I didn't know about the backgrounds. I thought, maybe the company split or he left the company. Or they/he just (temporarily?) closed their online shop for any reason...

[lvlace]

Try this link for exceedhair.....https://www.aliexpress.com/store/608828
It works. I contacted them through Alibaba. Got a quick reply. No idea why they are hidden on aliexpress when one does a standard search.

Huge site. Difficult to navigate. I got the impression that the only way to deal with them is by email if one wanted something that is custom. For me, however, they possibly could be a source for hair used for ventilation.

Your contact likely working on his own cutting out exceedhair in the process. Not uncommon. In 09 I was working with a Chinese company. But when I ordered a second time my contact wanted monies to pass through him. Generally not a good idea. Nevertheless I said ok since the $$ figure was only about $100. It worked out ok. But I have no idea who he sourced for the hair piece. The "wild wild west" when working direct with Chinese companies!

[AGAssi]

I'm sorry, but I have to come back to the question concerning the bleach bath. In the USA, Clorox seems to be very common, but after spending hours and days on the internet and in local drugstores noone could help me, how to get Clorox (or something alike) here in Germany.

If I find something with chlorine in it, it's just some bathroom/toilet cleaner(!).
If I go and look for (fabric?) "bleach", I end up with product only on oxygen base, no chlorine in it.

So, can anyone help, please? Any idea which product to purchase when living in Germany? I've seen lots of bleach bath videos and they seem VERY promising to my situation. The women with long hair have the exakt same tangling/felting issues like I have, and after a bleach bath, there wigs are like new again.

PS: Only found this one, this is a Leach/Javel of "sodiumhypochlorit". Is that what Clorox actually is? http://www.ebay.de/itm/1-LITER-CHLOR...-/231175432830

And regarding the ammonia:
I found 9% and 25% solutions here. Which one is correct?