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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mic28 View Post
    He seems to be posting this garbage in a number of other forums under the same name. Never seen him talking about anything other than permanent SMP in any of his posts!
    Well that's obviously not true. I haven't posted any of what i have written here anywhere else. Also, i only have 7 posts on another forum, and you can clearly see me discussing and praising temporary SMP in them.

    There were a few more posts on that forum where i stood up for the work, and reputation, of the owner of Ahead Ink, but they were deleted when a mod cleaned up the thread.

    Oh and also in that thread, you would have seen me specifically standing up for Joe against someone who was directing gay slurs and over the top rudeness in his direction. That person was banned, and it was probably prompted by my input.

    So... yeah.

    It was funny because the guy that got banned accused me of being a tricopigmentation shill, and said that i was really the owner of Ahead Ink posting under another name, because i was standing up for he and Joe, and their work.

    Then i come over here and get called a shill for permanent, because i am asking Joe to explain some of his statements he made on a site owned by the owner of Ahead Ink.

    Some days a guy just cant win, eh?



    Quote Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
    Oh boy, this guy doesnít quit. After two months hairhairhair456, a screen name that screams shill, BTW, is still trying to bait Joe Tillman. Yeah, this guy has no skin in the game, right The head tattoo people are really something. Please, take this garbage somewhere else, people are not interested in buying what you are selling. Who has time to bump a dead thread after two months and write a post like this unless they are very motivated and have some underlying ulterior motive? Ridiculous and so transparent.
    Blah blah blah. You're clueless guy. Since you are repeating yourself, let me go ahead and repeat my previous response to you:

    What's really funny about this is how it only seems to be a problem to you if I work in the industry. How about Joe? He set up a website to promote the cosmetic company he is tied to, where he trashes his competition using what i feel is inaccurate information, and he literally advertises the website as 'biased and proud of it'. That's no problem eh? And when pressed about this, he says 'nah im not even gonna read what you wrote, because i dont care'.

    But if someone asks him to source/explain the bold claims he is making, then they are obviously a shill, whether they admit it or not, and up to no good for asking such questions. Alright man, whatever.
    I love how you guys cant rebut any of the criticisms i have made, and can only engage in ad-hominem attacks, and speculation about my identity. More proof that i am on the right track here.

    Here's an idea, how about unless you want to discuss the specific issues i have raised, you dont click on the thread. How about that? You can cry shill till you are blue in the face, but that isn't going to magically make any of my criticisms invalid.

    Dont worry, this isn't going to go on forever. If you had bothered to read this thread, you would see that the evidence to support my claim that Joe/Ahead Ink are engaging in unscrupulous advertising, is rather damning. Perhaps that is why Joe stopped reading it (or at least 'supposedly' stopped reading). If Joe and Ahead Ink wont, or can't, rebut the observations i have raised, then so be it. But I'm giving them a chance. And if they dont, i will spread the word... just like Joe did when he encountered a similar situation. We all have to keep each other honest, right?

    You should ask Joe why he told that one guy to send him his concerns over the website, and that he would be happy to look into them, but refused (supposedly) to even read mine. My guess is it's because Joe knew the other guy was a blubbering mess who wouldn't be able to make a coherent argument, but could quickly tell that i was on point. Hence the fingers in the ears 'i cant hear you' excuse.

    I haven't even pulled out my Ace in the hole yet.

  2. #22
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    Iím sure everyone in the hair loss community is waiting with bated breath for your ďace in the holeĒ. Joe Tillman has proven himself to be a real expert to all of us, so I doubt youíll be able to change the fact that he has helped countless people and continues to give newbies lifesaving advice. I personally think all head tattoos are ridiculous. You have skin in the game and some kind of bone to pick, itís blatantly obvious, but no one really cares. How about this, why donít you add your real name your picture and the tattoo company you work for to your next post instead of being a forum troll hiding behind your keyboard? Instead of picking fights and making threats, donít you think you can market your tattoos in a more productive and honest way?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
    Joe Tillman has proven himself to be a real expert to all of us, so I doubt youíll be able to change the fact that he has helped countless people and continues to give newbies lifesaving advice.
    Are you even reading this thread? I've literally said this same thing several times now.

    What you are saying doesn't even make sense. This isn't about 'changing the fact that he has helped people', it's about holding him accountable for the way he is marketing his version of SMP. You know. The SAME EXACT THING Joe has done to others in the past.

    I personally think all head tattoos are ridiculous.
    That's nice. Maybe you should stay out of discussions concerning SMP then.

    but no one really cares.
    Oh it's pretty clear how much you care.

    I've humored your incessant vitriol for far too long. Stop wasting everyones time by repeating the same attacks over and over again against me. There are rules against doing such things, and they are there to prevent all this meaningless nonsense you have added to the thread.

    Stop making posts just to call me a shill. Speak to the topic of this thread, which is the specific criticisms i have laid out, or move along.

    With all of the accusatory posts you have made in this thread, the fact that you have been unable to refute one single issue that i raised, says volumes about the accuracy of my argument.

  4. #24
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    If anything, I find it flattering that someone is so concerned about my opinion that they feel inclined to spend so much time to debate me multiple times when I'm not even responding.

    I'll take the bait...

    The difference between what I was doing with regards to Tyler Greene and what you're doing with me is simple. Tyler Greene was a fictitious character created by the former web "guru" for HIS. He was charging member clinics, and yes some tricho clinics, a membership fee without disclosing that the website was owned by HIS. In essence, trico clinics were paying HIS for marketing and whenever a trico clinic was being reviewed or compared to a non-trico (permanent) clinic the review was always slighted away from trico without being obviously anti-trico. The bias was very clear but not disclosed.

    I am me, someone whose real face and identity are exposed to the world on a daily basis. I am not using an alias and I'm making it crystal clear how I feel about permanent SMP vs. trico. My bias is clear. I also refused to take advertising dollars from any permanent SMP clinic, and a few had asked. I'm not misrepresenting what I do to my clients and I'm not misleading my readers and viewers. I'm also completely uninvolved financially from the trico community, and the SMP community overall. I accept no advertising revenue from, nor do I work with any trico exclusive clinics. I eventually became a target by some of the players on the permanent side of the industry and I found it to be a greasy environment in which I no longer wish to associate. I know some permanent SMP people that seem to be good people and present a quality product, which I've said before, but in general I think the permanent side is sleazy. My old website will eventually be changed with new content and maybe a new direction. I don't know, but it isn't my place to dictate as such.

    My gut tells me you are associated with the industry. All 18 of your posts (currently) on this forum have to do with SMP and I've seen you on other forums as well with the same pattern. You've also made statements that only one in the industry would make and you've even revealed some information that I've only told to four people, one of which knows you personally. Can I prove this? Probably not, at least not to others publicly, but when I say that I could not care less, I really mean it.

    In the end however, it doesn't really matter if you are in the industry. If anything, it says something if you have to hide behind an anonymous username instead of being front and center like me. I've come to expect this from the permanent SMP folks. I suspect the reason why you keep coming back is because my old website is still dominating Google search in most English speaking markets and your clients are asking you about it. I only realized this while writing this post because it made me think to check the rankings of the site. The funny thing is that I've not even touched my old website in nearly six months! Not bad for someone without a lot of SMP experience, eh?

    So I'll close with this although I expect more rebuttals about nothing to ensue. I really cannot care less about the SMP industry. My opinions are my opinions and I've seen what I've seen, which is how my opinions have been formed. If people are happy with permanent SMP, God bless them. If you've seen horrible trico results, more power to you. You don't have to agree and you can prove me wrong all you wish. I don't care. Yes, you can say that you aren't anti-trico and you think I'm a good guy and you can even say that I'm deflecting from "the issues" but, again, I don't care.

    Good day.
    Joe Tillman
    The original Hair Transplant Mentor

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    You've also made statements that only one in the industry would make and you've even revealed some information that I've only told to four people, one of which knows you personally.
    Quote it Joe. Quote the information that you have only told to four people. Quote it, and i will PROVE that this is a lie, and that you have no idea who i am.

    You wont do it though, because you know that if you did, people would realize that you are bluffing. Casting doubt about your opponents financial ties is a very effective way to discredit someone without having to defend your position.

    You and i know that it's a bluff, though.

    So folks, you know how i know im right? It's because Joe has refused to address any of the issues i raised, and instead, tries to bully me into revealing my identity, as well as makes baseless accusations about my involvement in the industry. These are tactics people use when their positions are indefensible, just like Joe points out when people do it to him.

    By the way, saying 'go ahead and accuse me of deflecting the issues, i dont care' doesn't absolve you from being the type of person who deflects the issues.

    Here's one final example of Joe chastising someone for the exact same things he is doing to me in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    This is a deflection. I'm not concerned with who listens to me on this. I'm speaking to you.

    You've had two chances to back this statement up yet instead you deflect. Therefore, as I already know, you are lying. I've busted you about lying online before and this is no different. You lie to disparage techniques or ideas you disagree with and when confronted to justify your statements you make excuses. You are a liar.

    More deflection, this time by associating me with an effeminate beverage.

    Deflection from the issue. Nothing more.
    Those quotes were all from the same thread, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    I'm not misrepresenting what I do to my clients and I'm not misleading my readers and viewers.
    I proved that you have. It's right there on the first page of this thread. Anyone who reads the thread will know this.

    I know that your trico colleagues are reading this thread, and in particular, that the new owner of the website is. Have you wondered why none of them have weighed in here to defend the rhetoric you use to promote trico? It's because they know that im right. No one wants to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

    Sure, you might get one or two people that will say 'youre a shill' or 'joe is a saint', but you certainly wont see them discussing the specific criticisms i made, because they, like you, can see they are indefensible.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    I accept no advertising revenue from, nor do I work with any trico exclusive clinics. I really cannot care less about the SMP industry.
    Why on earth do you keep saying 'i dont care about SMP', and claim to not be associated with it? You LITERALLY created a website to promote SMP, where you specifically state that you are affiliated with trico clinics, and provide photos and videos of you visiting SMP clinics around the world.

    I mean what exactly is going on here? Did you take too much heat for the things you were saying, and you passed the website off to someone else, so that your words/endorsements can remain, but you can 'technically' claim that you aren't involved with SMP? It literally makes no sense for you to say that you aren't involved with SMP. Even your most ardent supporters must be scratching their heads over this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    The funny thing is that I've not even touched my old website in nearly six months! Not bad for someone without a lot of SMP experience, eh?
    Getting hits on your website doesn't miraculously make the content reputable. Websites devoted to proving the moon landing was a hoax, or that the earth is flat, get lots of hits as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    My old website will eventually be changed with new content and maybe a new direction. I don't know, but it isn't my place to dictate as such.
    Oh you think so? You think someone would want to remove blatantly misleading advertising, so that they wont be associated with such tactics? Imagine that.


    Here is the additional input i referenced earlier:


    I struggled for a long time with the decision about whether or not i should make such accusations towards you. I know you wont believe it, but its the truth. You make your livelihood in the hair loss industry, and i knew that the accusations i would make would be irrefutable because of how unbelievably careless you were with your rhetoric, and I am not one to lightly mess with other people's livelihoods. Two things kept making me feel like i must speak up, however. One was the seemingly unending positive success stories i read about on permanent SMP clinics' websites, including the one which is your number one target. It is unquestionable that your myths and fear mongering are nowhere to be found in the feedback from reputable clinics, and i believe it is unethical to allow someone to dissuade people away from a clearly viable solution using such disingenuous methods. Two was the fact that the input from Nicole, who i consider one of the worlds leading experts on SMP, supports my belief that permanent SMP is as viable as temporary.

    I hesitate to bring Nicole into this, because i think she possesses a great deal of integrity in an industry where it is lacking. She is one of the most ethical and honest people i have observed in this industry, and i admire her for it. Additionally, the two of you have a more personal relationship than some random practitioner working for another company, so this could put her in an awkward position. However, i guess the same could pretty much be said for any tricopigmentation technician, to a certain degree. I dont require, expect, or even want, Nicole's input here (or really any other trico technician), because of the catch-22 situation they would be in with you. That situation wouldn't exist if you had the resolve to back up your rhetoric and fight your own fight, but your response was to plug your ears and say 'i cant hear you', so here we are.

    Let's compare what Joe and Nicole have said about permanent SMP:

    Joe says that permanent SMP should be avoided, that the procedure is irrational and nothing about it makes sense, that the permanent industry attracts people that dont want to do good, that there is a high risk of ink confluence, that permanent SMP training is inferior to trico training, that permanent hairlines are unrealistic, that it evolved from permanent makeup/tattoos, etc.

    Nicole says both permanent and temporary are great procedures, with their own pros and cons, and that both are viable when performed by a reputable company. She says nothing about ink confluence, says nothing about the training differences between the two types of SMP, nor does she say that only permanent SMP evolved from permanent makeup/tattoos. She was on The Bald Truth show to discuss SMP, and felt the need to post on the forum afterwards to clarify that she does not dislike permanent SMP, because of how one sided the episode seemed against permanent.

    Joe also trashes the permanent company he referenced earlier, and on his website he surmised multiple times that the reason they filed for bankruptcy a few months ago was because of "angry customers beating down their doors for full refunds", and said that it was good for consumers that they were out of business because it was "one less company that can cause damage to hair loss sufferers". (The actual reason was that they were restructuring the company.) He also posted pictures of their work, with disparaging comments directed at them.

    Nicole publicly recommends that permanent company, as well as its previous employees, stating on this very website:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole007 View Post
    For permanent SMP, you closest reliable clinic would be HIS in Chicago.
    and on another website:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole007 View Post
    I think the most consistently good permanent SMP work that I have seen done is by former techs from HIS, Vinci, and NHI

    ...

    I was trained in permanent pigmentation and actually started my career in this industry in that field. I can tell you that today based on that inside knowledge if I have patients that want permanent pigmentation I really only refer to previous HIS employees... The technique and pigments that they were trained with are far superior and much safer than those of some of the other more permanent companies (not including Vinci).
    Not only that, but she has LITERALLY partnered with that same company to start offering their version of permanent SMP at Shapiro Medical Group:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole007 View Post
    Currently, we are only offering tricopigmentaiton at SMG. But, after completing an intense advanced training partnering with HIS we will begin offering an alternative permanent procedure hopefully by the end of the summer. This procedure will be also be "semi-permanent" but it will last closer to 2-5 years vs. 6 months to 24 months. We will be offering both the tricopigmentation and the HIS technique based on patient needs and qualifications.
    Joe, you are in almost complete opposition to one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people in the world, in regards to permanent and temporary smp. Both in her opinions/observations of permanent SMP overall, and on her recommendations for who does reputable permanent work. If you cant get on the same sheet of paper with your own expert, then why on earth are you handing out advice to the public?

    So what is going on here Joe?

    Is the problem that Nicole, and the other trico technicians that aren't repeating your claims, don't posses the experience that you do concerning permanent SMP? And that the reason she recommends a treatment that doesn't make sense and should be avoided, as well as partners with a clinic that causes damage to hair loss sufferers, is because she doesn't have the knowledge you do?

    Or is it that you became personally offended by the underhanded tactics used by the marketing arm of a popular permanent SMP company, and decided that you would fight fire with fire by creating a counter website using far more disingenuous rhetoric than they ever used, both against permanent SMP in general, and specifically towards that very company, but with the caveat of saying 'im admitting what im saying is biased' to give you an escape route if anyone ever called you on it?

    I think it's the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    in general I think the permanent side is sleazy.
    Joe, in this case you are the embodiment of those who you chastise - both in your responses to me in this thread, and with your website. I realize that that may be a harsh accusation for some to hear on your home turf, but i challenge anyone who believes otherwise to objectively look at the information contained in this thread and reach a different conclusion.

    This is the last post i will make in which i try to get Joe to justify the rhetoric he has engaged in. I will make good on my promise to spread the word, though.

    A few final thoughts:

    Im aware that i will automatically be considered the bad guy on this website for bringing forth such accusations against one of your own, but truly the only motive i have here is to ensure that people looking for hair loss solutions aren't misled by bad information. Yes, i carry a harsh tone towards Joe at this time, but that is because i am so disappointed in his behavior on this matter. I dont feel that anyone is immune from being held accountable for their words, no matter how much positive work they have done for the community, or how public they make themselves.

    If you feel i have been disingenuous/misleading, or have lied with my analysis here, then hold me accountable... but you're going to need to do more than merely calling me a shill.

    I commend the owner/admin of this site for allowing this discussion to take place.

    I apologize to Nicole.

  6. #26
    Doctor Representative JoeTillman's Avatar
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    Does anyone reading this dribble care, even a little bit? If so, speak up; maybe someone can care enough for me, too

    If you feel i have been disingenuous/misleading, or have lied with my analysis here, then hold me accountable... but you're going to need to do more than merely calling me a shill.
    Mmm, don't care enough to bother. Don't care about the lying, don't care about your analysis and actually don't care about you being a shill. Good for you, though, for being passionate. Since you said that was your last post, take care and God bless.
    Joe Tillman
    The original Hair Transplant Mentor

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  7. #27
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    I said it was my last post trying to get you to atone for your sins, so to speak. It was. I didn't say i wouldn't speak to anyone again, that's just rude. Im a pretty social guy, and I like chatting with folks. How aboat their election, eh? Heard any good jokes lately?

    Still with those baseless accusations, though. Geez. What's wrong my man? Upset that someone can play your game better than you? Has the mighty Joe finally met his match? It seems so.

    And Joe, you aren't fooling anyone... if there were lies in my analysis you would have been tripping over your own feet to point them out. Anyone who knows you, knows this.

    You let us know when you get the courage to quote the information you supposedly only told to four people.

    I would feel sorry for whoever the guy is that you think i am, who has been unfairly attributed to my ace investigative work, but im pretty sure you made all that up in the hopes i would crack a little. Takes more than that, old chap.

    Until then you can keep making cute little jokes, like you haven't been rattled.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairhairhair456 View Post
    I said it was my last post trying to get you to atone for your sins, so to speak. It was. I didn't say i wouldn't speak to anyone again, that's just rude. Im a pretty social guy, and I like chatting with folks. How aboat their election, eh? Heard any good jokes lately?

    Still with those baseless accusations, though. Geez. What's wrong my man? Upset that someone can play your game better than you? Has the mighty Joe finally met his match? It seems so.

    And Joe, you aren't fooling anyone... if there were lies in my analysis you would have been tripping over your own feet to point them out. Anyone who knows you, knows this.

    You let us know when you get the courage to quote the information you supposedly only told to four people.

    I would feel sorry for whoever the guy is that you think i am, who has been unfairly attributed to my ace investigative work, but im pretty sure you made all that up in the hopes i would crack a little. Takes more than that, old chap.

    Until then you can keep making cute little jokes, like you haven't been rattled.
    The fact that you felt the need conduct "ace detective work" is kind of disturbing. Like, seriously, it's such a non-issue. It's like trying to debate me about my opinions on daffodils. Maybe if I didn't have a job I'd have more time to deal with you, but I'd also have to care enough to do so as well, which I don't. Meanwhile you think you're being smart and sassy with your snide remarks. I get it, cool. Good for you.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by JoeTillman; 11-07-2016 at 05:04 PM. Reason: doubled cheers:)
    Joe Tillman
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  9. #29
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