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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
    How can it be considered a proven treatment for hair loss? How does it actually treat hair loss? It's a head tattoo! With all due respect, this is a discussion forum, and while you may not want this thread to be about the viability of SMP, it is. I am 100% of the opinion that you work in the head tattoo industry, there is no other reason for you to be so defensive or to try to take Joe Tillman to task if you had no skin in the game.
    Delphi, you are 100% wrong. Someone doesn't have to be tied to an industry to criticize another persons claims about an industry, especially if they feel they aren't accurate. I dont know anything about you, but i'm assuming that you are a proponent of hair transplant surgery. If you saw someone trashing hair surgery and making misleading/questionable claims about it, might you feel compelled to speak up, even if you dont work in the industry? That's all i am doing here.

    But how about this, if it makes you feel better, you can assume i am the CEO of a permanent SMP clinic. It's essentially irrelevant who i am, because the criticisms i have raised are either valid, or they aren't.

    I would be more than happy to discuss the viability of SMP with you, but not in this thread. This thread is about Joe's portrayal of the permanent side of the industry.

    If you look at the forum rules, you will find these two entries:

    ē Stay on topic
    ē No highjacking of other users threads
    This is the second time i have politely asked you to not take this thread off topic. Please do not make another post about the viability of SMP. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss it.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairhairhair456 View Post
    Delphi, you are 100% wrong. Someone doesn't have to be tied to an industry to criticize another persons claims about an industry, especially if they feel they aren't accurate. I dont know anything about you, but i'm assuming that you are a proponent of hair transplant surgery. If you saw someone trashing hair surgery and making misleading/questionable claims about it, might you feel compelled to speak up, even if you dont work in the industry? That's all i am doing here.

    But how about this, if it makes you feel better, you can assume i am the CEO of a permanent SMP clinic. It's essentially irrelevant who i am, because the criticisms i have raised are either valid, or they aren't.

    I would be more than happy to discuss the viability of SMP with you, but not in this thread. This thread is about Joe's portrayal of the permanent side of the industry.

    If you look at the forum rules, you will find these two entries:



    This is the second time i have politely asked you to not take this thread off topic. Please do not make another post about the viability of SMP. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss it.
    Iím actually a proponent of the medical management of hair loss since this is what Iíve have done for myself, but I do think hair transplants have their place. I have not taken this thread off topic or highjacked it , I have actually stayed on topic so please to not tell me how to conduct myself on a forum I have been a member of of for 7 years.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
    Iím actually a proponent of the medical management of hair loss since this is what Iíve have done for myself, but I do think hair transplants have their place. I have not taken this thread off topic or highjacked it , I have actually stayed on topic so please to not tell me how to conduct myself on a forum I have been a member of of for 7 years.
    Perhaps i misinterpreted what you were saying. When you said "it's a head tattoo", i thought you were criticizing both temporary and permanent SMP, since they are both technically tattoos. Re-reading it, it seems you might have only been directing your criticism towards permanent specifically. If so, apologies.

    In regards to that, it's pretty much established now that permanent SMP, from a reputable company, is a viable treatment for hairloss. There are mountains of feedback online that confirm this. When i say 'treatment', it's meant in the same way as concealer or hair systems are referred to as 'treatments'. Perhaps 'solution' is a better term, but the point is that it has been proven to improve the lives of people suffering from hair loss.

    This notion that permanent SMP from a reputable clinic will merge together, or degrade in some horrible manner, in four to five years is nothing more than a myth. This isn't 2009 anymore, where we have no meaningfull feedback to look at... there are hundreds of reports of people who have had treatments for multiple years, and multiple touchups, who dont report these issues. Even 5+ years. Keep in mind that what Joe says about treatments degrading over time is anecdotal, at least as far as i have seen. His trico colleagues experienced in SMP aren't making such broad claims about permanent (again, as far as i have seen), and more importantly, it is essentially nowhere to be found when you research the feedback online.

    I take recommending (as well as dismissing) either type of SMP very seriously, and i have actively tried to find proof/confirmation, of the issues/differences Joe speaks of. If i had found evidence to back up his assertions, i would have been right there with him warning people to avoid it. But not only have i not found support for what he claims, i've often found the exact opposite. I'll speak more about that later.

    I understand your position, though, as you might not be very involved in the SMP industry. The same thing is seen on SMP forums, where people who had terrible hair transplants 10 or 15 years ago, or who might have googled 'bad hair transplants', will come online and proclaim that all hair transplant surgeries are recipes for disaster, and that they are in no way a viable option. The truth is that the hair transplant industry has made significant advances over the years, and it produces satisfied clients regularly... you just have to know where to look.

    So if you aren't very involved in the SMP community, you might have seen some abomonations from substandrd clinics, and think that permanent is nothing more than a snake oil money grab. You might have even seen a bad treatment from a good company now and then, because as im sure you are aware, even the best surgeons/clinics dont have 100% success rates. But if you spend even a little time researching feedback from reputable clinics, it is quickly apparent that it is a viable option. The positive feedback far outweighs any of the negatives, you just have to know where to look.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairhairhair456 View Post
    Perhaps i misinterpreted what you were saying. When you said "it's a head tattoo", i thought you were criticizing both temporary and permanent SMP, since they are both technically tattoos. Re-reading it, it seems you might have only been directing your criticism towards permanent specifically. If so, apologies.

    In regards to that, it's pretty much established now that permanent SMP, from a reputable company, is a viable treatment for hairloss. There are mountains of feedback online that confirm this. When i say 'treatment', it's meant in the same way as concealer or hair systems are referred to as 'treatments'. Perhaps 'solution' is a better term, but the point is that it has been proven to improve the lives of people suffering from hair loss.

    This notion that permanent SMP from a reputable clinic will merge together, or degrade in some horrible manner, in four to five years is nothing more than a myth. This isn't 2009 anymore, where we have no meaningfull feedback to look at... there are hundreds of reports of people who have had treatments for multiple years, and multiple touchups, who dont report these issues. Even 5+ years. Keep in mind that what Joe says about treatments degrading over time is anecdotal, at least as far as i have seen. His trico colleagues experienced in SMP aren't making such broad claims about permanent (again, as far as i have seen), and more importantly, it is essentially nowhere to be found when you research the feedback online.

    I take recommending (as well as dismissing) either type of SMP very seriously, and i have actively tried to find proof/confirmation, of the issues/differences Joe speaks of. If i had found evidence to back up his assertions, i would have been right there with him warning people to avoid it. But not only have i not found support for what he claims, i've often found the exact opposite. I'll speak more about that later.

    I understand your position, though, as you might not be very involved in the SMP industry. The same thing is seen on SMP forums, where people who had terrible hair transplants 10 or 15 years ago, or who might have googled 'bad hair transplants', will come online and proclaim that all hair transplant surgeries are recipes for disaster, and that they are in no way a viable option. The truth is that the hair transplant industry has made significant advances over the years, and it produces satisfied clients regularly... you just have to know where to look.

    So if you aren't very involved in the SMP community, you might have seen some abomonations from substandrd clinics, and think that permanent is nothing more than a snake oil money grab. You might have even seen a bad treatment from a good company now and then, because as im sure you are aware, even the best surgeons/clinics dont have 100% success rates. But if you spend even a little time researching feedback from reputable clinics, it is quickly apparent that it is a viable option. The positive feedback far outweighs any of the negatives, you just have to know where to look.
    It's so transparent that you have skin in the game. Sell all the hair tattoos you want, I'm not buying any and I don't think too many well educated hair loss sufferers on the forums are either. Good luck!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
    It's so transparent that you have skin in the game.
    You dont have to be a shill to be passionate about something, especially sensitive cosmetic procedures such as this.

    But hey, you already caught me. I told you I'm the CEO of a permanant SMP company. Hoo boy, sure was wrong to think i could fool someone as sharp as you, huh? Well good job on that, Barney Fife.

    Now that that you've fulfilled your duties here, you can move on to guessing peoples professions in other threads. Leave us to discuss the validity of my criticisims -- the point of the thread -- which as i have stated several times, are completely independent of whether or not i work in the industry. They are either valid or they aren't.

    What's really funny about this is how it only seems to be a problem to you if I work in the industry. How about Joe? He set up a website to promote the cosmetic company he is tied to, where he trashes his competition using what i feel is inaccurate information, and he literally advertises the website as 'biased and proud of it'. That's no problem eh? And when pressed about this, he says 'nah im not even gonna read what you wrote, because i dont care'.

    But if someone asks him to source/explain the bold claims he is making, then they are obviously a shill, whether they admit it or not, and up to no good for asking such questions. Alright man, whatever.



    Sell all the hair tattoos you want, I'm not buying any and I don't think too many well educated hair loss sufferers on the forums are either. Good luck!
    Well that's obviously not true. Heck, i bet even Joe would tell you that's not true. But it's pretty clear that, contrary to what you stated earlier, you aren't interested in having a two way discussion about this, so it was nice chatting with you!

  6. #16
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    It must be gratifying to be so passionate about something as important to the world has head tattoos, especially since you have no skin in the game. Good luck in your quest to spread the word on the virtues of this groundbreaking hair loss treatment.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Your post is rife with contradictions, falsehoods and flat out uninformed opinions.
    Still waiting for you to point out the contradictions and falsehoods that were 'rife' in my post, Joe. If you cant back up that claim, about a single post, then it's no wonder why this is going the way it is. Are there really contradictions and falsehoods 'rife' throughout it, or did you just make that up to try and discredit what i was saying?

    Hey remember that one time that guy claimed you had insulted him, and you responded by telling him to quote where you did. And then he didn't, and you responded with 'still waiting for you to quote where i insulted you'? Good times.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    avoid SMP in general
    I find this really odd... you make an entire website to promote the SMP company you are affiliated with, yet in other places you say it should generally be avoided, and that it's best if people can just accept themselves the way they are without ink or surgery.

    I mean it might make sense if on your website you had made a blog post discussing acceptance and avoidance, or perhaps devoted even a single sentence to any of the drawbacks of tricopigmentation, but that stuff is nowhere to be found. The entire website is one big glowing advertisement for tricopigmentation.

    If i felt that it's best for people dealing with hair loss to accept themselves without ink or surgery, and that they should generally avoid SMP, then i certainly wouldn't create a website where i sing the praises of SMP, list zero drawbacks, and encourage people to use my company. It's like saying that you think people should generally avoid hot dogs, and then going outside and setting up a hot dog stand with a big sign that says "come try our hot dogs! they're the best you've ever tasted!".

    If this is how you 'really' feel, then why did you not make one single mention of this sentiment on your website, a website meant to advise potentially vulnerable people who are thinking about SMP?



    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    I've seen multiple cases of ink confluence (including the owners of two of the biggest SMP companies).
    First of all, please answer my question about this issue with trico. When someone gets a trico touchup, the technicians apply pigment to a partially faded treatment. Do they put the dots on top of one another? Do they put them between the old dots? How do trico technicians add new dots to a partially faded treatment without the ink merging together, like you say will happen when permanent companies perform similar touchups?

    So your source for this oft repeated claim is that you saw some guys where it was an issue. Thousands of people have been treated by reputable clinics at this point, and hundreds of them have left detailed feedback about their treatments... ive never seen it reported, and you cant provide any examples. You also wont say which companies performed the treatments you are referencing, which is pretty convienient... leaving it ambiguous casts a cloud over the entire industry, especially when you throw in the '2 biggest companies' part.

    If someone was making similar claims about trico, would 'i saw some people that it happened to, but im not going to say where they had their treatments, nor will i provide any examples or further clarification' be substantive enough for you for the claim to stand? I highly doubt it. I am asking you again to provide some evidence to back up this claim, other than your anecdotal, ambiguous report... in addition to explaining how trico avoids this dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    thank you for your opinions, Mr. Anonymous, but I'm going to stick with mine which are not up for debate.
    This isn't all about 'opinions'. A major point of your website is where you claim permanent is inferior to temporary because of training, yet i have evidence to show that the company you are promoting requires only 8 days of training and 4 treatments before they are cleared to work on the public, versus two permanent companies who say they spend months in training and participate in hundreds of treatments before cleared for solo work.

    Care to comment on that?

    Or how about your line about permanent being inferior because it evolved from permanent makeup/tatoo, but not temporary... even though temporary is a tattoo and the founder of trico has a background in permanent makeup?

    How are claims like this not the same type of disingenuous information that you supposedly created this website to protect people against?

    As far as opinions go, this line is pretty good:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    I believe that, for the most part, having this option to permanent SMP clinics simply draws the kind of person that wants to do good.
    Trico draws people that want to do good, implying that permanent draws people that want to do harm? Come on. You're aware that this good/evil stuff is the same type of rhetoric your friend TC uses to trash SMP across the internet, right?

    And speaking of that guy:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    I've seen MANY cases where the client says he's happy but the vast majority of these clients don't exactly have the best idea of what natural is supposed to look like (which is another issue altogether), but who am I to challenge them individually on their personal satisfaction?
    Is this your rebuttal to me asking you to explain why there is so much positive feedback for permanent SMP online, as well as why the positive feedback far outweighs the negative? Your explanation is that they think they look good, but they really look bad, and either no one is telling them, or everyone around them also cant distinguish between a good and bad result either? Well this is literally the same rebuttal TC gives to explain all the positive feedback about SMP online. It's weak when he does it, and it's especially weak when you do it.

    And even if you want to stick to the theory that all these thousands of people cant properly gauge how they look, you would be hard pressed to find a client from a reputable SMP clinic that got SMP without seeing it on someone else in person first. Many of the technicians have SMP, and most of the people that do consultations have SMP as well... also there are all the former clients that offer to meet up with prospective clients, which happens often. If it looks as bad as you claim it does, then why do so many people go forward with permanent SMP after they see it in person? In many cases seeing it in person is specifically what gives them the confidence to proceed with the treatment. What's your explanation for this? Everyone is just wrong?

    It's also funny how TC supports his argument against reputable SMP by posting only pictures of horribly botched SMP treatments, and in the only photograph of permanent SMP on your website, you use one of the exact same photos he does, to support your argument as well. You guys share 'pictures for trashing permanent SMP' folders or something?

    And by the way, in regards to the 'some permanent hairlines are too straight and dont look natural' criticism... here are a few photos off your website from one of the companies you endorse. Link Dont get me wrong, it looks fine, and im sure the guys are happy, but would you not consider these hairlines about as straight and defined as it gets?

    What i find most interesting here is how this discussion compares to the discussion you blogged about having with 'Tyler' (in quotes because he was probably a fictional character). I first became aware of your website when you blogged about the financial goings on of a popular SMP company. Those blog entries have since been removed - and i could make a pretty good guess as to why - but i have copies of them. On the page about exposing 'Tyler', you chronicle the timeline of how it all went down. Here's a brief summary:

    Tyler was comparing a trico clinic to a permanent, and he said both offer high quality results, but that he preferred permanent because he felt it was safer. You said that you had never heard that, and asked him what he was basing it on. He provided a substantive answer. (You can argue how accurate it was, but the point here is that he provided an actual answer.) You followed up and asked him for more clarification, and he provided another answer with even more substance. After this, you were banned from asking any more questions. At this point you felt his explanations were disengenious, and that he was "deflecting the question by introducing more doubt, rather than providing facts explaining his statement as I had requested". This prompted you to start investigating who owned the website, uncover the charade, and basically create an entire website to rebut their website.

    So how is what i am doing any different than what you did there? Lets compare our actions:

    You came across a website where someone said both tricopigmentation and permanent were quality treatments, but that he preferred permanent. You took issue with the reason he preferred one over the other, stating that it went against most everything you knew about trico, and asked him to explain his reasoning further.

    I came across a website where someone completely trashed the entire permanent industry in favor of tricopigmentation. I took issue with several of the reasons the author used to trash permanent, stating that they went against most everything i knew about permanent, and asked him to explain his reasoning further.

    So you and me are doing the exact same thing so far, right? Great. Two guys trying to make sure that the information about SMP online is fair and accurate.

    Now lets compare the responses:

    "Tyler" responded to your first inquiry with additional clarification about his statement. You asked for more, and he responded with even further clarification about his statement.

    You responded to my first inquiry by telling me my post was full of falsehoods and contradictions (without mentioning them), saying that you didnt read what i wrote, and accused me of working in the industry -- with zero clarification on anything i had requested. I repeated my request for you to provide evidence/clarification for the claims you are making. You responded by repeating yourself, and telling me your opinions aren't up for debate -- with zero clarification on anything i had requested.

    If "Tyler" had responded to your inquiry by simply repeating his opinions, saying it wasn't up for debate, and saying he wasn't going to read what you wrote because he didn't care, would that have went over well with you? Of course not. I mean he actually made multiple attempts to explain his reasoning, and you still went on a crusade after him.

    So explain to me why you feel that you are immune from the EXACT SAME scrutiny that you impose on others? Remember that "Tyler" wasn't even trashing trico -- he praised it -- but merely said he preferred permanent. In your case you are completely trashing the entire permanent industry. Shouldn't your advice be able to stand up to even more scrutiny than Tyler's? Then defend it properly.

  8. #18
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    Cat got your tounge, Joe? You never seem to be short of words when you are holding someone else accountable for the claims they make, so why so mum now?

    Consider this discussion from last year, where a guy merely said that one website ranked higher than another, and you proceeded to make multiple lengthy posts about it, emailed him graphs of web page rankings, and posted multiple graphs on the forum. Eventually, you said this to him:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    ...how does this translate to the advice you give people that are making serious decisions about their lives?

    I'm not going to let you get away with your BS and it is exactly my new position in this world that allows me to continue to hammer your lies, hypocrisy and vicious attacks on others without any worry of repercussions for my employer, since I now have none. I'm making it a point to quote everything you say and screenshot everything you say because you have a tendency to edit your postings a couple hours later. No more. Consider this a notice. I'm going to be on you like white on rice in a snowstorm and I'm going to call you on your BS every time you spew it. Here and everywhere else you post. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
    So you said that you are going to follow this guy around the internet and call him out 'EVERY SINGLE TIME' that he spreads lies, hypocrisy, and attacks (and rightfully so), yet when presented with specific critiques of the claims you have made on your own website (where you advise people that are making serious decisions about their life), all of a sudden you cant be bothered to respond, because you 'really aren't that interested in the issue'.

    Seriously? You put all that effort into proving someone wrong who said one website ranks higher than another, but wont put any effort into rebutting the specific and sourced critiques i have made about the claims you make on your website? Come on.

    Another tidbit from that thread, was that early in the thread, that same person had made a comment implying you worked for a forum, and you responded with:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    for some reason you insinuated that I work for a forum. I think. What the Hell was that about anyway? Care to prove this or are you going to make a veiled accusation and then slink away by not following up on it?
    and:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Please expound on this "you don't work for a forum......right" comment. I know this was sarcasm which means that you are saying I work for a forum. Which one? Or instead, admit you were trying to stir the pot and that you have no proof to base this off of.
    This is similar to what i posted earlier where a guy claimed you insulted him in a post you made, and you made multiple posts asking for him to quote where you did.

    So how does this work? Proof is required to accuse you of secretly working for a forum, or to claim you insulted someone, but if you want to accuse someone (me) of being financially tied to the industry, and claim that a post i made is full of falsehoods and contradictions, you dont have to follow up on the accusation or quote the falsehoods and contradictions?

    So, Joe, can you point out the falsehoods and contradictions rife in my post, or say why you think i am financially tied to the industry? Or, as you put it, would you rather admit you were trying to stir the pot, and that you have no proof to base those accusations off of? Pot, kettle.





    A little over a year ago, someone was criticizing your website on another forum (although they didn't list specifics, and were being very immature), and you told them:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Regardless, if you find something wrong with my website, list them out and email or private message me. I'll see if your claims are legitimate and I'll make changes based on these truths. If you are all for the truth then you shouldn't have an issue with this and you should be happy to help.
    So, was that like a one time offer to the public or something?

    Why did you encourage the guy that was ranting like a third grader to list out his claims so you could look into them, but when i took the time to list out, explain, and source my concerns, you refuse to even read them?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    "If you are all for the truth..."
    Well, i dont know about the guy you said that to, but i am. Are you?

    And if Joe cant be bothered to defend his claims, I encourage anyone else in the tricopigmentation industry to rebut the observations i have made.

    In a strange twist of fate, on another forum someone was disparaging the results and reputation of a tricopigmentation clinic owner. I spoke up strongly in support of not only the results from that clinic, but also for the character of the owner. Later I found out that Joe had sold his website to that very same person, so hopefully that makes it more clear that im not just a disgruntled competitor trying to trash tricopigmentation or something.

    Ive said many times that i think Joe is a good guy, and there is no question that he helps many many people with advice about hair transplants. That doesn't give him a pass to play fast and loose with advice on SMP, though... at least from me. Someone help me understand how the things Joe has said aren't the same type of misleading, disingenuous, bogus rhetoric that we all claim to be so opposed to.

    One last note, i started this discussion to give Joe a chance to defend the criticisms i have made. If he wont, or cant, then i will assume my obserations are valid. If so, i intend to spread this information across every hairloss forum i can find, and warn people that Joe Tillman and Ahead Ink are engaging in unscrupulous advertising.

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    Oh boy, this guy doesnít quit. After two months hairhairhair456, a screen name that screams shill, BTW, is still trying to bait Joe Tillman. Yeah, this guy has no skin in the game, right The head tattoo people are really something. Please, take this garbage somewhere else, people are not interested in buying what you are selling. Who has time to bump a dead thread after two months and write a post like this unless they are very motivated and have some underlying ulterior motive? Ridiculous and so transparent.

  10. #20
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    He seems to be posting this garbage in a number of other forums under the same name. Never seen him talking about anything other than permanent SMP in any of his posts!

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