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  1. #1
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    Default Permanent vs Temporary (Tricopigmentation) SMP

    This thread was started because of a discussion in another thread, which i felt was taking the thread off topic. (Link to the other thread.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    This wasn't always the case and to be blunt, I'm not paying attention to permanent SMP companies nowadays since most are con artists and thugs.
    You're doing the same thing that I unfortunately see a lot of people do... lumping reputable companies in with bad ones, and essentially condemning the entire lot. I'm sure you're aware that there is a tremendous amount of positive feedback concerning permanent SMP on the internet, and it's growing every day. If "most" permanent SMP companies were con artists, then one would expect to find mountains of complaints and a few success stories... but the opposite is true.

    Your message should be for people to use caution when selecting a permanent SMP clinic, not to avoid the industry altogether... at least in regards to the 'it's an industry of con-artists' critique.

    At the very least, you are impugning the reputation of many honorable technicians when you make such statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    The downsides of permanent SMP affect buzzcut as well as long hair scenarios respectively. The dots are made differently and if you have dots that are turning blue or spreading and causing a confluence of ink long hair will not hide the problems. If you can see scalp without the dots you'll see the problems that the dots will create in the same space.
    I've done a fair bit of research on permanent and temporary SMP, and I have yet to find a convincing argument that one is necessarily better than the other, as long as they are performed by a reputable clinic. This includes reading through your Smpclinics website, which in my opinion, makes some extremely disingenuous (and at times outright false) arguments against permanent SMP.

    The one benefit to trico that i agree with, is that it is temporary. A temporary start to SMP is indeed the safer option. The drawback, of course, is that if one decides that they want to keep the look long term, trico requires yearly(ish) touch up sessions.

    As far as your comment about blue ink, I've read a report of a tricopigmentation patient who had trico applied to his scalp which had some scarring... he gave it a grade of F and said the ink ended up looking blue in spots, and he received a full refund... so lets acknowledge that trico also carries the risk of unsatisfactory results. Coincidentally, he said that he wasn't very stressed over it because his long scalp hair covered it up sufficiently... which was something you said wouldn't help.

    I imagine the rebuttal to that will be 'if it was permanent he would be stuck with it forever, but since he got trico it will just fade away'. Here's the thing about that... if someone has a trico treatment and they hate the way it looks -- whether because of ink issues, technician error, or if they just dont like the style -- i highly doubt they will simply walk around with it on their head for a year (or maybe longer) until it unevenly fades away... they are most likely going to want it removed immediately by laser. With that being the case, permanent and temporary SMP aren't nearly as far apart as they are made to seem, in regards to dealing with an unsatisfactory result.

    Based on the amount of positive feedback on the internet for both temporary and permanent SMP, it seems clear that they are both viable solutions, with their own pros/cons. Do we currently have 80 years of data on permanent SMP? No. But we have 5-10 at this point, and a lot of the criticisms you bring up aren't being reflected in the feedback i am seeing on the internet.

    If, as you say, it's been a while since you have followed the permanent SMP industry, perhaps you should take another look... especially with so many people looking to you for advice.

  2. #2
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    Your message should be for people to use caution when selecting a permanent SMP clinic, not to avoid the industry altogether... at least in regards to the 'it's an industry of con-artists' critique.
    I'll do no such thing. I will continue to tell people to avoid the permanent SMP industry because I know enough about it to know that it should be avoided. I do know some people in the industry that appear to be good people and try to exercise some restraint with their claims and marketing but for the most part I stand by my critique. The permanent SMP industry is, in general, corrupt with only a few exceptions. I have proof of permanent SMP clinics pretending to be clients posting reviews and I have proof of SMP clinics conducting advertising fraud with undisclosed conflicts of interest. The list of issues is quite shocking.

    The permanent SMP industry's corruption is like the hair transplant industry's corruption multiplied by a factor of ten. Some of what I read and even hear coming out of the mouths of even some of the most respected practitioners blows my mind. One of my favorite claims is that one's ink won't fade for ten years and may only require minor touch ups every few years. Why? Because it has been formulated in a special way that prevents degradation. Sounds great, right? But when you ask that practitioner how long they've been performing SMP and they say two years, or even five years, or anything less than ten years, it has to be spelled out for them that they really don't know what they're talking about. If they haven't been around for ten years, of if the company they work for hasn't been around for ten years, how in the Hell can they say with a straight face that the ink won't fade for ten years? Or five, or whatever they (insert clinic name here) may claim? It's absolute lunacy.

    Fair point about tricho clients that are unhappy wanting to get rid of it ASAP but my position about tricho compared to permanent is that it is the lesser of two evils. You're still tattooing your head and if you want to talk about the lasering of dots in long hair with tricho vs. permanent you're leaving out the issue of follicular damage from laser treatments. No one I know in the industry, on any level, recommends laser removal of pigment into hair bearing regions of the scalp. That is follicular suicide.

    With all of the people that have reached out to me to thank me for educating them about the differences, and the number of people that have been helped by reputable tricho practitioners after being screwed by permanent SMP procedures, I think I'll continue to trash permanent SMP when the opportunities arise. My message is one of restraint, not just education, and if one can just accept themselves the way they are without having ink or surgery, then they win. That is what matters to me.

    If you don't see the downside of permanent SMP with the company of your choice, more power to you, but don't lecture me on what I may or may not know. The only reason you've heard of tricho to begin with is because of me. I was the first person in the English speaking world to even discuss tricho and the reason why I haven't kept up with what the permanent SMP companies are doing is because I know that it is no different than it was a year ago. No magical formula has materialized that makes permanent SMP any different than it was last time I looked at it seriously. It is still the same and still something that should be avoided.

    You are more than welcome to disagree with my position but don't plan on making this a drawn out, multi-post debate, because I'm really not that interested in the issue to dedicate any more time to it.
    Joe Tillman
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    If you don't see the downside of permanent SMP with the company of your choice, more power to you, but don't lecture me on what I may or may not know.
    I'm not lecturing you, i'm rebutting some of your arguments.

    I've got nothing against you, and i have no financial ties to either SMP method. I have a lot of respect for the things that you have done for the hair loss community, but i disagree with the advice you are giving on this issue.

    I like to help people that are looking into SMP, and i try to make sure that the advice i give, and that others give, is unbiased and accurate. Perhaps i am wrong about my assessment here. If so, then i would welcome the correction, as it would help me provide better advice to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    and the number of people that have been helped by reputable tricho practitioners after being screwed by permanent SMP procedures
    Just for the record, I've read numerous accounts of reputable permanent SMP clinics helping people that have been screwed by substandard SMP clinics.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    I'll do no such thing. I will continue to tell people to avoid the permanent SMP industry because I know enough about it to know that it should be avoided.

    I think I'll continue to trash permanent SMP when the opportunities arise
    There are hundreds of online testimonials of people saying permanent SMP changed their lives for the better, and the number grows every day. It is clearly a viable solution. With all of the snake oil that gets marketed to people struggling with hair loss, I dont get why you are so adamantly turning people off to one of the few treatments that has proven successful, and is reversible to boot.

    I ask again: If the industry is rife with con artists, then why does the positive feedback dwarf the negative feedback? What is your explanation for the multitude of success stories online?

    I just read a report today of a guy who had permanent SMP done 3 years ago, hasn't had any touchups, and said 'it's the best thing i've ever done'. Numerous times i have read of people overcoming severe depression, and even suicidal thoughts, because of permanent SMP. How is what these people have done "irrational", and a bad decision?

    From your website:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Regardless of what is said to describe any scalp micropigmentation system, it is ultimately the results that should help to determine what is right for you...
    The feedback online indicates that both methods produce extremely satisfied customers, yet you only seem to acknowledge the success rate of tricopigmentation. You basically ignore the successful results of permanent SMP, and use worst case scenarios and questionable arguments to argue against it. I'm struggling to see how such biased information is beneficial to people that are looking for help.

    You know far more about SMP then I do. I only get my information by reading the client feedback online, and from what temporary/permanent clinics divulge. What i find tells a different story than the one you are presenting. Who knows... maybe there are forums out there where hundreds of people are talking about how their treatments from reputable permanent SMP clinics were a disaster, and i'm not aware of them. If so, then perhaps you could point me in their direction.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Fair point about tricho clients that are unhappy wanting to get rid of it ASAP but my position about tricho compared to permanent is that it is the lesser of two evils. You're still tattooing your head
    When you say 'tattooing' are you referring to both permanent and temporary SMP? Because on your website you disparagingly refer to permanent SMP as 'a hair tattoo in sheeps clothing', further adding 'permanent SMP evolved from basic common tattoo procedures'. Ok, so what did tricopigmentation evolve from? Grapefruit? I mean, it's not like we are comparing trico to ballistic missiles... we are talking about two slightly different methods of SMP. Tattooing and permanent makeup were obviously the precursors to BOTH permanent and temporary SMP.

    It's disingenuous to imply that trico wasn't influenced by tattooing/permanent makeup (doesn't Milena herself have a background in permanent makeup?), and imply that that would somehow invalidate the effectiveness of either method.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    and if you want to talk about the lasering of dots in long hair with tricho vs. permanent you're leaving out the issue of follicular damage from laser treatments. No one I know in the industry, on any level, recommends laser removal of pigment into hair bearing regions of the scalp. That is follicular suicide.
    The damage from lasering into hair bearing regions is irrelevant, as it would affect someone who had permanent or temporary SMP the same.

    The point was that if there is a problem with a trico treatment, it will more than likely be handled exactly like if there was a problem with a permanent treatment -- lasered off. So then, of what real benefit is trico over permanent when it comes to correcting an unsatisfactory treatment?

    Temporary has a slight edge in that 'IF' (big 'if') someone was okay with walking around with an unsatisfactory treatment on their head for 1-2 years while it unevenly fades away, then they dont have to do anything. But is that slight edge really as big of a difference as you are making it out to be? You went on and on about the 'trauma' of having an unsatisfactory permanent treatment lasered off, but not one time said how a trico patient could remedy the same situation in the short term... it's handled the same exact way.

    If someone isn't okay with letting an unsatisfactory treatment fade away, there is essentially zero benefit in choosing trico over permanent, in regards to this issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    ...if you have dots that are spreading and causing a confluence of ink...
    This is another issue i have heard you reference several times both online, and on the bald truth show.

    Here's a quote from your website:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    There is no danger of having the dreaded “helmet head” result that can be seen from changes that occur with time. Because traditional SMP methods do not disappear the required “touch ups” advertised as necessary every few years can lead to a confluence of pigment which eventually looks unnatural.
    What evidence are you using when you make this claim? Can you link to some reports where the person had a touchup from a reputable clinic, and reported that the ink all merged together into a blob? I've read many reports of people getting touchups, and cant recall this ever being an issue.

    Over time the dots get smaller and less visible as they fade, and fresh dots are applied over the top. If anything, they will leave behind a light gray shadow as they fade away which is actually how a real shaved head of hair looks - dark dots of hair follicles over a grey base. If someone experiences severe fading, they may report this happening at an accelerated pace. As far as a normal treatment receiving a normal touchup, i've never seen anyone report that all the dots merged together into a blob.

    Additionally, and more importantly, can you explain to me how tricopigmentation avoids this 'problem'? When trico patients go for their touchups, they dont wait for the treatment to completely fade away first, right? So do the trico technicians apply the new dots directly on top of the old ones? Do they put the new dots in between the old ones? How do the trico technicians add fresh dots to a partially faded treatment without all of the ink merging together, like you say will happen when permanent SMP technicians perform similar touch ups?

    Lastly, lets not forget that one of the biggest selling points of SMP is that it is reversible by laser. If laser can repair the terrible treatments we see from substandard clinics, then surely it will have no problem adjusting a treatment from a reputable clinic should a problem occur down the road. This mitigates some (if not all) of your apparent speculation about what might happen in the distant future.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Because traditional SMP methods do not disappear
    What makes you think that they dont disappear? Not sure if i can link it here, but on the website of a certain permanent SMP clinic, a professor of biomedical engineering, who has close knowledge of the pigment they use, explains in detail how the pigment is consumed by the body over time. Seems like a similar process to how tricopigmentation disappears, just over a longer time-frame.

    As a layman, this explanation is just as detailed and technical (more, really) than any explanation i've read about how tricopigmentation disappears. Now is this guy wrong, or not being truthful or something, or is there more to the story? I assume he isn't, and that there isn't... but i cant say for sure. If you have some information that contradicts his explanation, i'm all ears.

    Here are a few other key arguments you make on your website:

    1. You disparage permanent companies for using a 'secret sauce' pigment, because the public doesn't know the specific ingredients. Beauty Medical is guilty of this as well, in fact Milena herself has said online that the exact makeup of the pigment is a trade secret.

    Yes, Beauty Medical's pigment was developed in Europe where the safety standards are higher... but so were the pigments of several of the most popular permanent SMP companies, no? So if those permanent companies passed the Europe regulations, then their pigment is as safe as what Beauty Medical uses, right? Right.

    If you have data to show that those reputable UK based clinics aren't using ink that was approved by the Europe regulations, here or at their US locations, please provide it.

    2. You say that 'the big dark secret that permanent SMP companies dont want us to know, is that there are no training standards for SMP'. I dont even know what kind of comparison you are trying to draw here. Training standards set by whom? By the government? No there are no government regulated training programs for permanent or temporary SMP. Training standards set by the company itself? Well, yes... every SMP clinic has it's own training program. So again, not sure what you are getting at here.

    Prompted by this criticism, i decided to try and find information about trico and permanent training on the internet. I found a detailed schedule of tricopigmentation training online, and compared it to what staff members from two reputable permanent SMP companies said about their own training.

    Trico training through Beauty Medical consists of two 4 day courses, in which the trainee performs 4 actual treatments. After this, I'm assuming they are cleared to work on the public. According to this document, after about a year Milena will visit the technician and watch them perform a treatment, and then 'certify' them if they perform adequately. But still, whether or not they eventually get certified, Beauty Medical apparently sets them loose on the public after only 8 days of training and 4 actual treatments. Is there more to it than that? I dont know, you tell me. Although, I have seen a trico technician from a company you are affiliated with reference the 4 day training program, which supports the accuracy of this document.

    Contrast that with what i found at two top permanent SMP companies: One company representative said that their technicians train 'for months'. The other company's representative said their technicians 'spent months in training, and participated in hundreds of treatments' before they were cleared to perform on their own.

    So to me, Joe Public, using what i found on the internet, which may or may not be accurate, the training at these reputable permanent SMP clinics appears to be far more rigorous than that of Beauty Medical.

    Am i saying that this means that the trico technicians aren't competent, or at least the ones that eventually get certified? Absolutely not, one only has to look at their results to confirm that. I provide this as a rebuttal to your 'big dark secret' criticism, which implies that permanent is inferior to trico because of insufficient training.

    But to go back to your advice from earlier, why not refrain from this sort of stuff and rely more on the feedback from clients? Wouldn't that be the best indicator of the viability of a treatment?

    Ultimately I think both treatments are a benefit to the hair loss community, and should be treated as such. When i saw someone of your stature warning people so strongly to avoid permanent SMP, it made me second guess all the advice i have given about it over the years. After reading through your arguments, and comparing them to the feedback online, i find that your message isn't indicative of the results that reputable permanent SMP companies are turning out.

    It's worth noting that i dont observe the same type of rhetoric from your colleagues on the trico side of the fence. Nicole, in particular, has been extremely balanced in her discussions on the subject. She puts trico first, but also acknowledges the viability of permanent, and gives it its due respect. Her approach is a breath of fresh air in an industry that we all know could use some.

    To quote something you said on your website:

    A unified scalp micropigmentation community is a healthy community...

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    In regards to your exposé about the company that was secretly running a supposedly independent SMP website... yes, as someone who had sung that company's praises many times, that was extremely dissapointing to learn. It was unnecessary, unseemly behavior, and you're commended for bringing it to light.

    That being said, it doesn't change the fact that that company delivers a quality product, which consistently changes peoples lives for the better. Similarily, they have a proven track record of going above and beyond to work with clients when problems arise. It was a terrible business decision by whoever ran the website, but their product, the skill of the technicians they employ, and how they treat their clients, are still top shelf.

    Again, this is based on what i observe from the online feedback. If there are websites out there where hundreds of clients are reporting disaster results with this company (or others), feel free to inform me of their whereabouts.

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    Doctor Representative JoeTillman's Avatar
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    Your post is rife with contradictions, falsehoods and flat out uninformed opinions. I didn't read the entirety of your post simply because I don't have that kind of time on my hands but one thing that stood out was how you said you try to help people with their SMP research yet you said I know more than you but you have no problem trying to debate me. Right. That makes sense.

    I'm pretty sure I know who you are so to say you have no financial ties to the industry is a flat out lie. Regardless, I don't really care. Good day.
    Joe Tillman
    The original Hair Transplant Mentor

    Currently Affiliated With-
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    - Dr. Jerry Cooley
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    - Beauty Medical Tricopigmentation

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTillman View Post
    Your post is rife with contradictions, falsehoods and flat out uninformed opinions.
    Rife with contradictions and falsehoods, yet you didn't cite a single instance. Okay.

    I used research and facts to make my points above, and i can source them to anyone who asks. If i'm as uninformed as you are claiming, then you should have no problem defending your position.

    you said I know more than you but you have no problem trying to debate me. Right. That makes sense.
    You left out the last part where i explained that the claims you are making are not reflected in the feedback i find online. Hence my request for you to go into more detail, or provide sources.

    Additionally, people dont have to be equally knowledgeable about a topic to debate it.


    I'm pretty sure I know who you are so to say you have no financial ties to the industry is a flat out lie. Regardless, I don't really care. Good day.
    If you think i have ties to the industry, then it confirms to me you have no idea who i am.

    It's really irrelevant who i am, though, because the points i raised are either valid or they aren't. If they aren't, then you should have no problem rebutting them.

    Saying you dont have time, or dont care, to discuss this is a cop-out. This is a very serious issue to many people, and your words carry a lot of weight. You had no problem taking the time to make webpages with such bold claims, im just asking you to back them up.

    I'll say again that i have nothing against you, and there is no hostility here on my part. Im much more on your side of things than it might appear to you at the moment, i just happen to disagree with you on this topic. My only goal is to ensure that the advice provided to people dealing with hair loss is accurate. If i'm wrong in my assessment then i have no problem admitting it, but you will have to do better than simply saying im wrong.

  7. #7
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    There is no "cop-out" if I believe I have better things to do but since you believe my words carry a lot of weight then let me words stand; avoid SMP in general but if you do get SMP, get trichopigmentation.

    Like I said in my post that you decided to respond to after nearly two months of silence, I have no interest in making this a multi-post debate. Quote me, question me, challenge me; I don't care because I have my own opinions based on my nearly fifteen years of experience. I've seen multiple cases of ink confluence (including the owners of two of the biggest SMP companies) and I've seen multiple cases of follicular destruction from too much laser removal and in my extremely experienced opinion trichopigmentation is better. There are permanent SMP clinics that are better than others but my opinion stands. I've seen MANY cases where the client says he's happy but the vast majority of these clients don't exactly have the best idea of what natural is supposed to look like (which is another issue altogether), but who am I to challenge them individually on their personal satisfaction? Regardless, thank you for your opinions, Mr. Anonymous, but I'm going to stick with mine which are not up for debate.
    Joe Tillman
    The original Hair Transplant Mentor

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    It's a head tattoo. How is this even a debate in 2016? It is so obvious that hairhairhair456 works for one of the permanent tattoo places, but even so, anyone who thinks that tattooing your scalp permanently with dots is a smart idea should really try to see people who are five years out from their first permanent head tattoo. I'm sure that would change their minds. Some of the pictures online are horrendous. I also find it hard to respect any hair transplant doctors who would offer this as an option in their clinics. It's not a medically sound option, it's just a money grab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
    It's a head tattoo. How is this even a debate in 2016? It is so obvious that hairhairhair456 works for one of the permanent tattoo places, but even so, anyone who thinks that tattooing your scalp permanently with dots is a smart idea should really try to see people who are five years out from their first permanent head tattoo. I'm sure that would change their minds. Some of the pictures online are horrendous. I also find it hard to respect any hair transplant doctors who would offer this as an option in their clinics. It's not a medically sound option, it's just a money grab.
    Delphi, you are wrong on both counts. I dont work for an SMP company, and SMP has long ago been proven a viable treatment.

    This thread is not about the viability of SMP, though, so if you want to discuss that, feel free to start another thread. I would be happy to provide reports from people that have had SMP for 5 years, but i'm not going to get into that here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hairhairhair456 View Post
    Delphi, you are wrong on both counts. I dont work for an SMP company, and SMP has long ago been proven a viable treatment.

    This thread is not about the viability of SMP, though, so if you want to discuss that, feel free to start another thread. I would be happy to provide reports from people that have had SMP for 5 years, but i'm not going to get into that here.
    How can it be considered a proven treatment for hair loss? How does it actually treat hair loss? It's a head tattoo! With all due respect, this is a discussion forum, and while you may not want this thread to be about the viability of SMP, it is. I am 100% of the opinion that you work in the head tattoo industry, there is no other reason for you to be so defensive or to try to take Joe Tillman to task if you had no skin in the game.

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