I think I've hacked it

[fred970]

No one is doing long term runs with the correct supplements for skin support (MSM / Vitamin C / Zinc).

None of these will regrow a single hair. Show me one before/after picture, just one! I can show you thousands for minoxidil/finasteride/hair transplants.

[youngin]

None of these will regrow a single hair. Show me one before/after picture, just one! I can show you thousands for minoxidil/finasteride/hair transplants.

Apparently you can't read. I didn't say they alone would regrow a single hair. Go away you troll.

[NeedHairASAP]

#1 - Finasteride nor any androgen based therapy is going to regrow the amount of hair possible with Minoxidil. As already mentioned, castration only stops hair loss... it doesn't act as ultimate regrowth.
#2 - If dermarolling is extremely uncomfortable you are doing it wrong. It does not have to be as aggressive as some people make it.
#3 - You have not followed the long term dermarolling progress. PrettyFly83 went from a NW6 to almost a NW3. In this study men on Finasteride AND Minox for 2-5 years were at a stand still and started regrowing more hair after adding dermarolling:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26120151

Everyone on this forum is far underestimating it because of dumbasses like fred. No one is doing long term runs with the correct supplements for skin support (MSM / Vitamin C / Zinc).

I actually got results from zinc. I'm not sure it will work for everyone, maybe I was severely deficient.

It mostly filled in the "sideburn to temple" thinning area that you see on some people. I think I read somewhere that that area in particular is where you thin if you're iron deficient-- so maybe zinc deficiency is a similar situation.

I'm not saying zinc can substitute fin but it gave me (potentially) actual cosmetic regrowth... I'd say it's worth everyone getting on a zinc supplement. It has benefits beyond potentially be good for your hair.

[Ulti1]

Wish I could help you. Realistically, The only thing I really could do for you is build you a site.

Unless you want me to come to your lab and pretend like I'm working on tobacco plants by watching "how to do science experiments " on youtube. Which would probably end in me getting frustrated and trying to smoke the plant.

id atleast need to be payed 2$ an hour and bum on your couch though. Let's do it! Haha

[pixels]

Apparently you can't read. I didn't say they alone would regrow a single hair. Go away you troll.

Apparently you're in the wrong forum.

Here we want to see cutting edge treatments with photographic evidence and results.

I am grateful for this guys work but i've been here for about 8 years (lost my old account) and Ill always lobby for proof. Words are cheap. Even the fancy long spiels.

[youngin]

Apparently you're in the wrong forum.

Here we want to see cutting edge treatments with photographic evidence and results.

I am grateful for this guys work but i've been here for about 8 years (lost my old account) and Ill always lobby for proof. Words are cheap. Even the fancy long spiels.

The OP never said he had proof of anything or that he even accomplished anything. My comments were about dermarolling and proof has already been given to that. I would say going from a NW6 to a NW3 is pretty cutting edge though. The best thing about OP is that hes actually using his brain and trying things. This isn't the best place to report it because of all the negativity around anything other than the big 3.

[youngin]

I actually got results from zinc. I'm not sure it will work for everyone, maybe I was severely deficient.

It mostly filled in the "sideburn to temple" thinning area that you see on some people. I think I read somewhere that that area in particular is where you thin if you're iron deficient-- so maybe zinc deficiency is a similar situation.

I'm not saying zinc can substitute fin but it gave me (potentially) actual cosmetic regrowth... I'd say it's worth everyone getting on a zinc supplement. It has benefits beyond potentially be good for your hair.

I agree. There are multiple studies showing how Zinc affect 5AR. It most definitely regulates it. Most people on this board should be supplementing with it as the dietary amount we get is very little in a Western diet. To re-iterate what you said, no one is claiming it can destroy 5AR the way that Finasteride does.

[FGF11]

FGF11 - I appreciate all the work you are doing. Can you please address my question though. Why would AR issues cause balding in a pattern? Why would minoxidil be the BEST growth stimulator if the problem was purely AR? It doesn't add up. Dermarolling + Minoxidil are far better growth stimulators than Finasteride will ever be.

Hey, Tnx.

Take a look at this:


This is the expression profile of AR and 5-AR,

what you notice is that Occipital part of the Scalp and Frontal part of the Scalp have differential AR and 5-AR expression. It means that, for some epigenetic reasons, AR and 5-AR are not expressed in frontal scalp.

This is why in GWAS studies, you see HDAC proteins and PAX (a homeobox) proteins show up. HDAC proteins are epigenetic modulators, in a sense they cause gene to go silent or get expressed. In this cases, developmental changes cause different expression patterns in people with AGA, and so because of HDACs gene expression profiles change. This change cause further immunogenetics responses that you see.


As I told you, frontal scalp is developmentally different from occipital scalp.

Imagine your fingers (toe and thumbs), they look kind of the same, right? but they are actually different.

Same as occipital and frontal region of the head. So, since they are developmentally different, they act and age differently.

So, that's the reason there is a pattern.

Maybe evolutionary, it was advantageous.

As for why Minoxidil works in both males and females is this:

Minoxidil works, I suppose, because it helps the release of beta catenin.

Now, its mode of action is different from Lithium Chloride.

It releases beta-catenin, maybe, by simply inhibiting its binding (or GSK-3) to AR (it also binds AR). Now, lithium Chloride can't do that, or any external beta-catenin stimulator (to a degree).

To get a better sense of what I'm sating, imagine, AR is the main cause of miniaturization and Beta-catenin is needed for regrowth (It's very simple explanation but helps my discussion), so for already miniaturized follicles AR nuclear inhibition can't help, because, they need beta-catenin, to go in anagen.

However, beta-catenin activation in already saturated cytoplasmic AR is impossible, as both GSK-3 and Beta-catenin are modulated by AR, and AR inhibits their action.

Derma-rolling might help, (I'm not a fan) by increasing growth stimulants, and it works better with Minox, I guess, just because it helps it's absorption.

One more thing, you need to know is that AR expression cause lineage differentiation of keratinocytes toward sebaceous gland, so basically, just stopping AR will stop oily and itchy scalp as well.

I tried to explain it simply, hope that helps. You can search for references yourself, as I didn't have time to put it here.

[FGF11]

Yongie: also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22283397

* It means that, for some epigenetic reasons, AR and 5-AR are not expressed in occipital scalp.

[youngin]

Yongie: also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22283397

I cannot read the full article of the study your image and information about 5aR was pulled from but this study: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...jcem.86.6.7545 references the one you pulled from and says:

In addition, AR mRNA was found to be expressed at a higher level in cultured DP cells from androgen-responsive hair follicles, such as beard and axillary hairs, than in those from follicles of occipital hairs (22). However, we failed to detect any quantitative differences in terms of the level of expression of AR mRNA in DP cells between balding and nonbalding scalp....We did not find any differences in terms of the expression of AR, 5αR1 and 5αR2 mRNAs, or in terms of 5αR activity between hair follicles from balding and nonbalding scalp.

I am inclined to have to ignore the science around this because I have seen many different variations of this in papers. There more, there's not more, 5aR or AR, its only in the DP, no its in the whole follicle. I will look into Minoxidil's action on Beta-Catenin further but I do not currently believe this is the method of action it uses.

If all of this AR talk was true you should be able to reverse all hair loss by castration and we both know that doesn't work. There is not enough meaningful testosterone in the body after that to continue to cause balding, yet it cant reverse it all... this should tell you something else is happening completely independent of testosterone. Multiple studies have shown the scarring/fibrosis that happens after miniaturization, and I don't see how your solution would solve that. However, it makes sense that Minoxidil and rolling would solve that.

[FGF11]

I cannot read the full article of the study your image and information about 5aR was pulled from but this study: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...jcem.86.6.7545 references the one you pulled from and says:

I am inclined to have to ignore the science around this because I have seen many different variations of this in papers. There more, there's not more, 5aR or AR, its only in the DP, no its in the whole follicle. I will look into Minoxidil's action on Beta-Catenin further but I do not currently believe this is the method of action it uses.

If all of this AR talk was true you should be able to reverse all hair loss by castration and we both know that doesn't work. There is not enough meaningful testosterone in the body after that to continue to cause balding, yet it cant reverse it all... this should tell you something else is happening completely independent of testosterone. Multiple studies have shown the scarring/fibrosis that happens after miniaturization, and I don't see how your solution would solve that. However, it makes sense that Minoxidil and rolling would solve that.

Okay, I explain a little more about castration:

Look, What is the role of castration? You take the balls out. Right? no testosterone anymore. So basically no DHT anymore. And no further miniaturization right. please read my writing as intelligently as possible. Miniaturization is DHT dependent. So you basically stop hair loss. No more DHT and testosterone binds the AR, so it can't get into the nucleus and drive miniaturization. But you're not inhibiting cytoplasmic AR, which, binds Beta-catenin either in presence of DHT or absence of DHt. Castration do not reduce AR expression levels. So, you won't see regrowth. Beta-catenin can't act in presence of AR. The binding of AR and beta-catenin is no completely DHT dependent. It's explained in the link I sent you.

[youngin]

Also I would like to point out that correlation is not causation. Even if your study was 100% right about 5aR expression then beard hairs would be just as likely to bald. You may just be trying to prove that theres a differentiation between bald vs non-bald follicle's genetically, but I don't see how this puts blame on androgens. Too much other research has been done on epigenetic factors, effect of cytokines, skin formation, etc. My bet is that Cyclosporine would grow just as much or more hair than any androgen suppressor.

[FGF11]

Also I would like to point out that correlation is not causation. Even if your study was 100% right about 5aR expression then beard hairs would be just as likely to bald. You may just be trying to prove that theres a differentiation between bald vs non-bald follicle's genetically, but I don't see how this puts blame on androgens. Too much other research has been done on epigenetic factors, effect of cytokines, skin formation, etc. My bet is that Cyclosporine would grow just as much or more hair than any androgen suppressor.

Cyclosporine A is interesting. the thing is you should differ between, AGA and normal hair regrowth. Put them in tow different categories. There are some reagents that grow hair, on every follicle. Like Cyclosporine A, (cause hirsutism) or Minoxidil. And there are drugs, that have differential characteristics (what is interesting for AGA) like androgen inhibitors, or AR inhibitors.

So yes, even though Cyclosporine A will grow hair, and Dr. Paus studies show that. It will never be effective for AGA. I got to go, Read a little more, and ask questions if you came across them.

[joachim]

Okay, I explain a little more about castration:

Look, What is the role of castration? You take the balls out. Right? no testosterone anymore. So basically no DHT anymore. And no further miniaturization right. please read my writing as intelligently as possible. Miniaturization is DHT dependent. So you basically stop hair loss. No more DHT and testosterone binds the AR, so it can't get into the nucleus and drive miniaturization. But you're not inhibiting cytoplasmic AR, which, binds Beta-catenin either in presence of DHT or absence of DHt. Castration do not reduce AR expression levels. So, you won't see regrowth. Beta-catenin can't act in presence of AR. The binding of AR and beta-catenin is no completely DHT dependent. It's explained in the link I sent you.

hey FGF11, nice work. we have some members here who somehow have a deeper background about biology and chemistry but for the first time i have a feeling that with you we have a real scientist here finally. you seem to know how stuff works and also have access to tools and equipment to test different theories. that's fantastic. i really think you could be onto something and even if some your thoughts turn out as wrong, i feel you can help greatly to understand the AGA mechanism and maybe even find some solution to it.
i strongly believe that if more members like you would take things into their own hands, we would already have a solution or at least better treatment options.
it would highly suggest that you let someone set up a site or blog for you where you can summarize and share your findings. an open science community would definitely accelerate the process in finding treatments for AGA. i'm not at all relying on the hairloss researchers like cotsarelis and others. they might have good knowledge and experience but they are not eager enough to really solve problems. they are tinkering around in their labs for decades without significant progress. an open science with knowledgeable guys like you could really make a difference.

so, i'm glad you're taking this course and trying to change the outcome of this game. keep up the good work. i'm looking forward on your progress and findings.

[FGF11]

hey FGF11, nice work. we have some members here who somehow have a deeper background about biology and chemistry but for the first time i have a feeling that with you we have a real scientist here finally. you seem to know how stuff works and also have access to tools and equipment to test different theories. that's fantastic. i really think you could be onto something and even if some your thoughts turn out as wrong, i feel you can help greatly to understand the AGA mechanism and maybe even find some solution to it.
i strongly believe that if more members like you would take things into their own hands, we would already have a solution or at least better treatment options.
it would highly suggest that you let someone set up a site or blog for you where you can summarize and share your findings. an open science community would definitely accelerate the process in finding treatments for AGA. i'm not at all relying on the hairloss researchers like cotsarelis and others. they might have good knowledge and experience but they are not eager enough to really solve problems. they are tinkering around in their labs for decades without significant progress. an open science with knowledgeable guys like you could really make a difference.

so, i'm glad you're taking this course and trying to change the outcome of this game. keep up the good work. i'm looking forward on your progress and findings.

Yea, either tomorrow or 20 years from now. I will solve this shit. Glad I didn't raise your BS detector. HAHA.