follicept - what's this?

[follicept]

Yeah I agree, I'm pretty bummed to hear that using the treatment would mean having to drop fin, which I am reluctant to do. I wasn't expecting to hear that, and yes it does set the bar higher for Follicept now, no doubt. I would like to hear more regarding this from Follicept's part, as like Illusion mentioned, I'd only heard anything about dropping minox (which I don't use) for the treatment until just now.

See above responses, has to do with what we can claim and is based on a conversation I had this morning with Dr. Hsu, so it is news to me as well. Ideally this works better than either, but I agree the standard is higher. We shall see soon enough!

Timeline- start on a few people next week, see results over the coming weeks. Assuming positive results, start full clinical trial around June 1. Indiegogo around the same time.

[Swooping]

No, I am asking what evidence do you have that only IGF-1 produced from within the DP in the micro environment of the hair follicle may have an effect ? Do you base that simply on the fact that people with high circulating IGF-1 levels also lose hair ?

I base that from two things as I said people with these genetic defects. Plus the fact that nothing upstream before Androgens > AR happens. Things which can indirectly alter androgens, for instance circulating IGF-1 or for that fact metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance can be bad yes in speeding up AGA. That's obvious. Loading yourself on a diet full of phyto estrogens like soy can slow your hair loss tremendously too. You'll even feminize.

So indeed circulating IGF-1 levels are not directly important to the pathology of AGA. The paracrine action mediated from within the dermal papilla can be of importance of hair follicle biology itself. You do know what this means right? Cells are little machines they can communicate with each other. So the DP may send out IGF-1 to neighboring cells for instance the keratinocytes. Something that circulating IGF-1 which is expressed in the blood can't achieve. The dermal papilla produce IGF-1 and release that.

I don't see it being important for the pathology of AGA though and definitely don't see it doing much at all in relation to AGA. It might not even be important for the DP itself but only for the keratonicytes. If you don't agree then please state with what not and your argumentation. And if you don't understand, then be more specific and I'll simplify it even more.

[Illusion]

Timeline- start on a few people next week, see results over the coming weeks. Assuming positive results, start full clinical trial around June 1. Indiegogo around the same time.

See Keki, this is what I mean. The full clinical trials won't start until June 1 if everything goes right and who knows how long those trials will take. You won't be using follicept for another few months and I think this can easily turn into a half year, if not longer.

But if you really want to wait, your call. Just remember that a lot of people have already told you to start with current treatments, not without reason

[Keki]

No no i know you are right, maybe i should start using fina at 0.25 at least, anyway it will be interesting to know exactly why a dht blocker isn't necessary at all according to them

[follicept]

See Keki, this is what I mean. The full clinical trials won't start until June 1 if everything goes right and who knows how long those trials will take. You won't be using follicept for another few months and I think this can easily turn into a half year, if not longer.

But if you really want to wait, your call. Just remember that a lot of people have already told you to start with current treatments, not without reason

We expect to see positive results in a few weeks. So if its overwhelmingly good in our small sample in town, we may run indiegogo concurrent with the trials, updating along the way, with a batch available potentially this summer, as we always said. Of course, completely your call! Don't blame you for not waiting, since we still have to prove it...

[serenemoon]

Quite curious indeed. The paper later this week should shed some light on it, but it is definitely a strange requirement. I imagine many people on this forum will probably go forward with fin+Follicept anyway (assuming it works well), perhaps this is just their current protocol given that they want to test the efficacy at baseline first. Unless Follicept has some effect on DHT I don't know why fin should be affected.

Then again I know pretty much nothing about this stuff.

I agree, I think most people will continue to use Fin. I think the place that Folliept is coming from is the fact that they don't know how fin and follicept will interact. (According to what Devon said in a recent post.) Stopping minoxidil in order to get the hair back to the shrunken state makes more sense to me, (and I personally don't see how fin and follicept could interact, if anything there may be an additive or synergestic effect here but of course that is just a guess) but then again, I see where Follicept is coming from. They are going based on proof and hard scientific evidence, and right now their evidence will only be from treatment naive patients.

[FrenchNewbie]

Timeline- start on a few people next week, see results over the coming weeks. Assuming positive results, start full clinical trial around June 1. Indiegogo around the same time.

For US and Europe? I can't wait. If it works, trust me, i will take my 5 weeks of hollidays in Florida if we can't have it in Europe.

[follicept]

I agree, I think most people will continue to use Fin. I think the place that Folliept is coming from is the fact that they don't know how fin and follicept will interact. (According to what Devon said in a recent post.) Stopping minoxidil in order to get the hair back to the shrunken state makes more sense to me, (and I personally don't see how fin and follicept could interact, if anything there may be an additive or synergestic effect here but of course that is just a guess) but then again, I see where Follicept is coming from. They are going based on proof and hard scientific evidence, and right now their evidence will only be from treatment naive patients.

Correct!! We just can't claim anything other than what we test. What people do is up to them, but we can't be responsible for those results. Though both from a mechanism of action and a possible interaction standpoint, I really think it could be dangerous to continue minoxidil. Not sure about fin, but we aren't testing yet- maybe once we have more funding.

[follicept]

For US and Europe? I can't wait. If it works, trust me, i will take my 5 weeks of hollidays in Florida if we can't have it in Europe.

Hopefully to Europe, still working that out. You are welcome to visit us any time!

[Helix]

I base that from two things as I said people with these genetic defects. Plus the fact that nothing upstream before Androgens > AR happens. Things which can indirectly alter androgens, for instance circulating IGF-1 or for that fact metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance can be bad yes in speeding up AGA. That's obvious. Loading yourself on a diet full of phyto estrogens like soy can slow your hair loss tremendously too. You'll even feminize.

So indeed circulating IGF-1 levels are not directly important to the pathology of AGA. The paracrine action mediated from within the dermal papilla can be of importance of hair follicle biology itself. You do know what this means right? Cells are little machines they can communicate with each other. So the DP may send out IGF-1 to neighboring cells for instance the keratinocytes. Something that circulating IGF-1 which is expressed in the blood can't achieve. The dermal papilla produce IGF-1 and release that.

I don't see it being important for the pathology of AGA though and definitely don't see it doing much at all in relation to AGA. It might not even be important for the DP itself but only for the keratonicytes. If you don't agree then please state with what not and your argumentation. And if you don't understand, then be more specific and I'll simplify it even more.

Please don't patronize me. I don't need you to simplify anything for me. Circulating IGF-1 is not simply "bound to the blood", there are binding proteins that modulate the biological actions of IGFs in target tissues. You do know what this means right ?

Also, your conclusions based on acromegaly are beyond speculation.

[stayhopeful]

See Keki, this is what I mean. The full clinical trials won't start until June 1 if everything goes right and who knows how long those trials will take. You won't be using follicept for another few months and I think this can easily turn into a half year, if not longer.

But if you really want to wait, your call. Just remember that a lot of people have already told you to start with current treatments, not without reason

he said IndieGOGO around June 1st.... that means sending samples out to us right???

[FrenchNewbie]

I base that from two things as I said people with these genetic defects. Plus the fact that nothing upstream before Androgens > AR happens. Things which can indirectly alter androgens, for instance circulating IGF-1 or for that fact metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance can be bad yes in speeding up AGA. That's obvious. Loading yourself on a diet full of phyto estrogens like soy can slow your hair loss tremendously too. You'll even feminize.

So indeed circulating IGF-1 levels are not directly important to the pathology of AGA. The paracrine action mediated from within the dermal papilla can be of importance of hair follicle biology itself. You do know what this means right? Cells are little machines they can communicate with each other. So the DP may send out IGF-1 to neighboring cells for instance the keratinocytes. Something that circulating IGF-1 which is expressed in the blood can't achieve. The dermal papilla produce IGF-1 and release that.

I don't see it being important for the pathology of AGA though and definitely don't see it doing much at all in relation to AGA. It might not even be important for the DP itself but only for the keratonicytes. If you don't agree then please state with what not and your argumentation. And if you don't understand, then be more specific and I'll simplify it even more.

What is your degree? Please tell me. If you are PhD graduated, what is your name? Where are your scientific publications?

Thank you

[Swooping]

Please don't patronize me. I don't need you to simplify anything for me. Circulating IGF-1 is not simply "bound to the blood", there are binding proteins that modulate the biological actions of IGFs in target tissues. You do know what this means right ?

Also, your conclusions based on acromegaly are beyond speculation.

Well you ask the same question 3 times what do you want me to do?

How is it speculation? Perhaps you'll go argue that the fact that pseudohermaphrodites or AIS people don't display androgenetic alopecia is speculation or not important? I'ts totally relevant to extrapolate data of such genetic diseases to AGA. In fact we have done this and discoveries are often made through this way.

People with Acrogemaly can display AGA, don't they? Then how can the FOXO1 hypothesis occur? Please explain, I'm interested in what you have to say.

You say that I speculate but don't give argumentation of anything at all. Aside from pointing me on carrier proteins (IGFPB family).

[follicept]

he said IndieGOGO around June 1st.... that means sending samples out to us right???

Yes. Exact timeline/production tbd, but in a WORST case, it would be a few weeks from the conclusion of the indiegogo, the duration of which is also tbd. But launching indiegogo means "We are 100% confident this works, and samples will be to you within weeks." Again, proceeds would be used to scale up to full production and launch.

[Illusion]

We expect to see positive results in a few weeks. So if its overwhelmingly good in our small sample in town, we may run indiegogo concurrent with the trials, updating along the way, with a batch available potentially this summer, as we always said.

he said IndieGOGO around June 1st.... that means sending samples out to us right???

Yeah, what I meant was that it could take a while before this will be sold over-the-counter. But indeed, those samples could reach us earlier.