Dermarolling protocol - success or fail?

[chimera]

If it is creating vellus hairs, doesn't it stand to reason that it may help maintain what you have? Maintenance alone is worthwhile, even with no regrowth.

And despite the poor quality of my results, this is exactly the reason I plan to continue on the dermaroller. It has given me a ton of vellus hair. Well not really, that is, mine are not vellus hair. This are more than mere vellus hair, this are black hairs (but very small anyway nad they are not getting any longer).

But I want to see if this can help me maintain what I still got.

Get off of the Ketoconazole, reduce it to 2-3 times a week and wait at least a day (preferably two) before using it.

Yeah, a lot of guys have told me to take it easy on the keto... but I don't understand why... is there a problem using it so often?. It really helps me with the oil.

It does leave my hair looking like shit though....

[hellouser]

Yeah, a lot of guys have told me to take it easy on the keto... but I don't understand why... is there a problem using it so often?. It really helps me with the oil.

It does leave my hair looking like shit though....

I dont remember the exact arguement for it, I think Squeegee on *** would know better, but Keto basically negates the initial 2-3 days of post dermarolling. You could ask him there, but dont come off as a noob because you'll get blasted with elementary grade insults.

[Dav7]

Why are you guys doing this, aka. butchering your scalp with needles on a weekly basis when it's not even a proven and approved method for preventing hair loss and regrowing hair? Also, isn't it rather dangerous to be doing this when it come to risk of infection? If I recall, aren't dermarollers meant for bad skin problems and as a temporary (and not permanent) solution to that problem?

And lastly, isn't it possible that the regrowth displayed in that original study was simply a patient who responded very well to minoxidil and that it had nothing to do with dermarolling?

[hellouser]

Why are you guys doing this, aka. butchering your scalp with needles on a weekly basis when it's not even a proven and approved method for preventing hair loss and regrowing hair? Also, isn't it rather dangerous to be doing this when it come to risk of infection? If I recall, aren't dermarollers meant for bad skin problems and as a temporary (and not permanent) solution to that problem?

And lastly, isn't it possible that the regrowth displayed in that original study was simply a patient who responded very well to minoxidil and that it had nothing to do with dermarolling?

Because it hasn't been disproved either.

[vcity]

Agreed.

Save the hair we do have now with less grafts needed for any HT with regen needed or better results with other treatments. However, being 2014 the treatments we do have are absolutely disgusting... full out cure should have been a reality a long time ago.

As much as I'd love to see one as soon as possible, a "full out cure" would be hard to achieve. It would have to involve taking a drug, injections, etc that selectively inhibit an enzyme in our "hair cells" and NOT effect the processes of other, nearby surrounding cells in the body. If the drug was to be taken orally, it would inhibit the enzyme all over the body and that would potentially be fatal if the protein product is needed for other pathways.

If researchers are able to selectively choose cells which the drugs can only interact with, we would have the "cure" for not only hair loss, but for cancer as well.

The "cures" for many diseases that we do have generally involve viruses and bacteria which can be targeted with antibiotics and other medication because they involve cells not similar to our own (i.e. our cells do not contain a cell wall, so the cell wall is often used as a target of anti-biotics with assurance that it won't effect human cells).

The only real hope I see is if they develop a method to clone or multiply hair cells from the "safe zone", some how grow them in vitro and successfuly implant them in thinning regions - that or donor regeneration. The current drugs aimed at "regrowth" ultimately will fail over time because they aren't targeting the root of the problem (potential inhibition of an enzyme product, etc).

[Pentarou]

If it is creating vellus hairs, doesn't it stand to reason that it may help maintain what you have? Maintenance alone is worthwhile, even with no regrowth.

Not if it hurts like ****, can lead to infections and there's proven pain free alternatives for pure maintenance (Fin, Dut).

[hellouser]

Not if it hurts like ****, can lead to infections and there's proven pain free alternatives for pure maintenance (Fin, Dut).

Fin and Dut are also proven to cause serious side effects (erectile dysfunction, manboobs and drop in libido).

I'd rather put up with dermarolling every now and then for 10-20 minutes than take that dick poison.

[Dav7]

Fin and Dut are also proven to cause serious side effects (erectile dysfunction, manboobs and drop in libido).

I'd rather put up with dermarolling every now and then for 10-20 minutes than take that dick poison.

Come on man, surely you know better than this? Fin side effects have been proven to occur in a small percentage of users, even Spencer Kobren has stated this about Propecia. No offense but the idea of supplementing a known DHT blocker, FDA approved for a a stick with pins on it seems to be a bit silly. HT's + the Big3 actually do something, all of this dermarolling is been based on one study and nothing more.

For all you know, for the individual in the study, the regrowth could be down to nothing more than an excellent response to Min and some other treatments possibly. There is no way I will be partaking in this venture, aka. butchering my scalp and not only risking infection but also possibly damaging hair follicles in the process.

Do any of you who are doing this actually have proof that this process does not damage hair follicles?

[chimera]

Not if it hurts like ****, can lead to infections and there's proven pain free alternatives for pure maintenance (Fin, Dut).

"pain free" ... This has to be a joke... I know a lot of people is cool with fin, I get that and I respect it, and I know not everyone suffers from side effects...
But for people like me, growing ****ing boobs and living with erectile disfunction for 5 months is not exactly pain free...

[hellouser]

Come on man, surely you know better than this? Fin side effects have been proven to occur in a small percentage of users, even Spencer Kobren has stated this about Propecia. No offense but the idea of supplementing a known DHT blocker, FDA approved for a a stick with pins on it seems to be a bit silly. HT's + the Big3 actually do something, all of this dermarolling is been based on one study and nothing more.

For all you know, for the individual in the study, the regrowth could be down to nothing more than an excellent response to Min and some other treatments possibly. There is no way I will be partaking in this venture, aka. butchering my scalp and not only risking infection but also possibly damaging hair follicles in the process.

Do any of you who are doing this actually have proof that this process does not damage hair follicles?

Read the response just after the one you made.

You're dismissing very real issues with DHT inhibitors.

Bottom line is, Finasteride has run its course and we should have had superior alternatives a long time ago. This is stone age shit. I won't deny its efficacy though, it works, and can work VERY well for some... but its still GARBAGE when you think about the treatments we should have in 2014.

[Pentarou]

Fin's crap, but it's approved for MPB, has been shown to work to keep hair counts stable over 10 years, and it's available today, it's not some far-off empty promise. If I'm balding now, I'll do what I can with proven means now, not put hope in completely unproven stuff.

As experimental treated go, dermarolling is relatively speaking not too risky, as long as the user carries out sterilisation of the roller and basic hygene to prevent infection, but really, that amount of pain and bloodshed and inconvenience ain't worth it for maintenance, certainly if there's no objective proof! Regrowth on the magnitude of the journal-published alleged study, yes, certainly if only for just 12 once-weekly sessions, but the inconvenient truth is that isn't happening. For anyone. Using the dermarolling protocol as a substitute for a finasteride or Big 3 regimen for maintenance at this point in time is insanity.

[Dav7]

Fin's crap, but it's approved for MPB, has been shown to work to keep hair counts stable over 10 years, and it's available today, it's not some far-off empty promise. If I'm balding now, I'll do what I can with proven means now, not put hope in completely unproven stuff.

As experimental treated go, dermarolling is relatively speaking not too risky, as long as the user carries out sterilisation of the roller and basic hygene to prevent infection, but really, that amount of pain and bloodshed and inconvenience ain't worth it for maintenance, certainly if there's no objective proof! Regrowth on the magnitude of the journal-published alleged study, yes, certainly if only for just 12 once-weekly sessions, but the inconvenient truth is that isn't happening. For anyone. Using the dermarolling protocol as a substitute for a finasteride or Big 3 regimen for maintenance at this point in time is insanity.

And to add to that list, the possibility of damaging hair follicles. For instance, I have cut my hair twice in the last year by myself (won't be doing it again), and I was informed by a man during a consultation in a hair transplant clinic that bad hair cuts, e.g. cutting clumps of hair out by accident etc. can damage follicles. I cannot imagine what a dermaroller would be doing in comparison.

Wouldn't it not be the case that with constant breaking up of skin on the scalp that you are damaging the hair regrowth cycle itself? Also, given that DHT suppresses blood flow to the follicles, thus leading to loss - isn't constantly drawing a lot of blood out of the scalp via a dermaroller going to make things even worse, as one is not only constantly pulling out hairs, but blood from the scalp on top of that?

I'm sorry, but all of this seems to me to be a bit too wishy-washy and new age like for my tastes and I'll stick to the done and dusted treatments that have actually been proven to work by scientists. However, we're all adults here, so if you want to do it, then it's your choices.

[chimera]

Also, given that DHT suppresses blood flow to the follicles, thus leading to loss - isn't constantly drawing a lot of blood out of the scalp via a dermaroller going to make things even worse, as one is not only constantly pulling out hairs, but blood from the scalp on top of that?
.

Supressing blood flow is not even the way DHT affects hair growth. Also, if it were about blood flow, then the dermaroller would be the best thing, as it promotes angiogenesis (but I don't think that is enough to prevent hair loss)

I'm sorry, but all of this seems to me to be a bit too wishy-washy and new age like for my tastes and I'll stick to the done and dusted treatments that have actually been proven to work by scientists. However, we're all adults here, so if you want to do it, then it's your choices.

I don't think this is new age. In fact, there is A LOT of science behind wounding... The problem is, I don't think the dermaroller by itself can give us the kind of wounding we would really need. And we also probably need higher quantities of growth factors (or from a whole different kind, like FGF9) in order to achive our goals.

Also, I know you are right about sticking to the approved treatments. But I have always thought that experimental treatments like this are for people like me, that is, people who for one or another reason, are beyond the approved treatments (in my case, side effects)...

[ryan555]

Why are you guys doing this, aka. butchering your scalp with needles on a weekly basis when it's not even a proven and approved method for preventing hair loss and regrowing hair? Also, isn't it rather dangerous to be doing this when it come to risk of infection? If I recall, aren't dermarollers meant for bad skin problems and as a temporary (and not permanent) solution to that problem?

And lastly, isn't it possible that the regrowth displayed in that original study was simply a patient who responded very well to minoxidil and that it had nothing to do with dermarolling?

The group with the dermarolling had dramatically better results than the group with minoxidil alone. It's also known that wounds cause the body to release growth factors, so it's not without a scientific basis. Regarding the "butchering" of one's scalp, I personally think the guys making themselves bleed are ridiculous. I have talked to prominent hair transplant surgeons who advocate dermarolling and they do not recommend such aggressive applications. I have never made myself bleed when I dermaroll and never would for fear of infection, scar tissue, and damage to existing hair follicles.

[534623]

Derma Roller & Minoxidil Study

I wonder whether you guys ever mentioned/discussed the following (pretty new) study?

A randomized evaluator blinded study of effect of microneedling in androgenetic alopecia: A pilot study
Date of Web Publication 6-Jul-2013

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;aulast=Dhurat

In short:
Using a dermal roller and 5% minoxidil, they reported the following results::

“In the Microneedling group, 41 (82%) patients reported more than 50% improvement...
.. versus...
... only 2 (4.5%) patients in the Minoxidil group. Unsatisfied patients to conventional therapy for AGA got good response with Microneedling treatment.”