Hairloss regime without fin

[macster]

Comparing aspirin to propecia would not be ridiculous. It would depend on what sort of comparison was being made.

Regardless, I did not compare aspirin to propecia. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

[UK_]

You say Propecia messed you up but it may have been something else. You cannot be sure of that it did mess your up nor that it didn't. It could have been hypochondria, a fairly common mental illness.

Yes, so within a few months of starting propecia my sex drive crashed and I experienced most of the physical/psychological side effects listed on the leaflet included with the propecia.

I think it's safe to say there is a link between my use of propecia and the side effects experienced, I was perfectly normal sexually active man before I ingested this bullshit.

[UK_]

Comparing aspirin to propecia would not be ridiculous. It would depend on what sort of comparison was being made.

Regardless, I did not compare aspirin to propecia. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

Merck troll.

Finasteride is a perfect example of why Milton Friedman was right about how useless and pointless the FDA is, I should have used my own judgement/research, but I was convinced by the money grabbing socialists in the FDA.

[cichlidfort]

minoxidil works very well on its own i believe for 50% of men. the research studies also seem to show that it is effective for the long term. some men report halting their hair loss for over a decade on it.

of course, you must be very disciplined in your use of minoxidil. 2x a day, every day, for the rest of your life. even if it is greasy and a pain in the behind.

the shedding thing is rare. those who have it are the ones who yell loudly on the internet, so it seems like a whole lot of people have this effect. but it is actually very rare.

its like working...at the returns desk at a target. over time, working there, you would probably start getting a very bad opinion about probably all the products at target. because all you are dealing with all day is with people who have had problem with target products. it skews you perception of things.

in actuality, very few people have problems with target products.

it is the same thing with side effects with propecia and rogaine. side effects for propecia occur in about 1.3% of men. And with half of those men, the side effects go away after 6 months with continued use of the product. that means the long term side effect rate is like .07, under 1%.

Some people are extremely risk averse and that is ok, that is your choice. For those people, who do not want to take an under 1% risk to get an 86% chance of keeping your hair for at least 10 years...for those people, your only choice is minoxidil.

And I think minoxidil works pretty well on its own, but you have to be very good about using it. No whining about it and skipping days and all that nonsense.

As Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try."

Your words are kind but they are coated in sugar. I have been using rogaine for 3 years now and I have still lost tons of ground. Everyone's physiology is different. What might work for me might not for someone else and vice verse. I used fin for 1 month and already I was noticing a decline in my sex drive, erections were weak and morning wood was gone. And I HIGHLY doubt only 1 or 2 out of everyone 100 men get sides. Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are skewed and inaccurate. And what about the men that have been on the drug successfully for 10 years and then go off of it notice huge improvements in quality of life after? Or men that were on it for 5 years and in their 6th year they developed permanent side effects? DHT is the king of male androgens. It isn't just a hormone that causes us to lose hair. It has many important physiological functions in our body and in the brain. A lot of our hormones and internal bodily functions are all interconnected. When you start messing with their levels, who knows what could happen, not just short term but long term as well. Yes losing our hair SUCKS but I would rather have a healthy mans body/libido then the contrary.

[macster]

It is possible that the decline in your sex drive was a function of the normal aging process. You are not meant to be a crazy hornball in your 30s, or even your late 20s, as you were in your teens and early 20s. You may be confounding these two factors. Remember, correlation does not mean causation.

I could also say Propecia causes wrinkles, or gray hair.

"And I HIGHLY doubt only 1 or 2 out of everyone 100 men get sides. Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are skewed and inaccurate."

Well...you can highly doubt that. You can highly doubt whatever you want, but that doesn't change the research findings replicated in study after study.

"Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are skewed and inaccurate."

I like that. I like how you just say that. You could also just say:

"Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are true and accurate."

Just because you say something assertively, with an air of righteousness and self confidence, doesn't make that statement into reality. I could just as well say "Anyone with common sense knows that dogs can fly in the sky" doesn't make it so.

"DHT is the king of male androgens."

That's a cool statement. I didn't know that androgens were members on any royal lineage.

You then go on to make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about how horrible the side effects are because this one said something or that one aid something, web postings, anecdotal evidence etc.

Well, you are using that data to make a judgement. That is bad data, assessed improperly, resulting in a bad judgement.

The data from peer reviewed clinical research is better data. The research design of these studies is better than the research design involved in searching around google and just pulling random stuff up and assigning it as truth, as fact.

NEITHER one of these ways of assessing information is perfect, neither the clinical research studies NOR jumping around on google. Each has its weaknesses.

However, the research approach of just jumping around on google and coming to conclusions is FAR WEAKER and FAR WORSE than the approach taken by the peer reviewed research studies published in medical journals.

All I am saying is that one approach is better than the other.

In the end, we will have to pick one approach over the other and live by it.

[macster]

One more thing I would like to note...

If propecia indeed has a side effects rate of 1 or 2%, this would mean that in a sense, side effects are not all that rare.

A 2% side effects rate, which is a reasonable estimate even for us who who are not part of the propecia paranoid posse, would mean that about 1 in 50 men who take propecia get side effects.

1 in 50. About 1 per set of people of about the size of a large classroom.

So I am not saying that the side effects do not exist. The studies say about 1 in 50 to 1 in 100.

But it is not worse than that either. And you have to make a decision as to what risk you are willing to take to keep your hair.

It is your decision based on your level of risk aversion.

[Dan26]

1-2% realistically is more like 4-6% based on other independent studies.

PFS can happen. Over half the people it happened to had an underlying physical or emotional condition, but there were some men who were perfectly normal/healthy and had their endocrine system severly messed up by it and now need hormone therapy.

again very small chance of serious life altering side effects

[macster]

Well, that is possible, but those cases have not been scientifically documented and "proven," at least to the greatest extent possible by modern science.

But we have to realize that all drugs, and heck, even foods, have rare and sometimes potentially devastating side effects.

Seems everyone is allergic to gluten right now. Actually, I think most of those cases are baloney, people who are trying to be all special and cool by being gluten free.

But there are legitimate cases of celiac disease, sensitivity to gluten.

The same can be said of common things like peanuts, aspirin, or even water.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Allergi...7401149&page=1

Some people will have these reactions.

And Propecia is nothing compared to these drugs. I have never heard of anyone dying from using Propecia, but I have heard of people dying from reactions to peanuts and aspirin.

But these cases are very rare.

I guess, in the end, it is up to the individual whether he wants to take a small risk to have an 86% chance of keeping one's hair for 10 years, and perhaps even regrowing some.

It is ok to be extremely risk averse. Some people will not fly on airplanes because they are extremely risk averse.

[Dan26]

im not feelin the false equivalencies bro...you reachin'

propecia essesntially changes your hormonal profile...it isn't as simple as a 'reaction' to something

i agree it is a pretty damn safe drug based on all the evidence out there...i take it, and i wish i didn't have to! very sad this is the best we got...

20 yrs ago i would have been appreciative that we at least have something to help...but at this point, brutal!

[cichlidfort]

It is possible that the decline in your sex drive was a function of the normal aging process. You are not meant to be a crazy hornball in your 30s, or even your late 20s, as you were in your teens and early 20s. You may be confounding these two factors. Remember, correlation does not mean causation.

No it's not possible that the decline in my sex drive was a function of the normal aging process. You assumed all of that. I am 24 years old and I have always had a crazy high libido to the point I thought there was something wrong with me. For example, I would have the flu, sick in bed, looking like death but still wanting to masturbate. Sorry for the excessive details but I am giving you some background info. So no, my libido didn't just fall off the cliff in a month due to the natural aging process. Funny thing is, ever since I have stopped Fin, my libido is mostly fine again. And just to address one of your misconceptions, libido doesn't just drop off into the deep-end like that. It's progressive just like we age progressively. We don't look 24 one day and wake up and look 34 because that's not how it works and the same applies with our sex drive.

"Anyone with common sense knows these statistics are true and accurate."

Just because you say something assertively, with an air of righteousness and self confidence, doesn't make that statement into reality. I could just as well say "Anyone with common sense knows that dogs can fly in the sky" doesn't make it so.

Except that everyone knows dogs cannot fly in the sky so terrible, terrible comparison. It is WELL-known that Fin potentially can give it's users HORRIBLE sides. That's only speaking of horrible sides. Based off what I have read, a lot of users that take Fin experience minor sides but chalk it up as no sides just because they are comparing their experience to the nightmares of Fin out there. I mean, let's look at two made up guys that use Fin; lets call them John and Thomas respectively. John takes Fin for a year, quits the drug because of ED, impotence, brain fog, gyno and loss of libido. Not only that, but two years later he still has a lot of those sides and is on hormone therapy! Pretty extreme right? Thomas comes in at a later time and read's John's horror story on the internet. He sees what a risk it is to take Fin but the hell with it, his hair is important so he decides to take Fin. After a year, the only sides he gets is a minor loss in libido and maybe fatigue throughout the day. In comparison, Thomas' sides is a bargain compared to what John had to go through. Thomas, does not categorize himself as a Fin user that has sides because he is comparing himself to the extreme so therefore "side reports" are inaccurate and the numbers are skewed. Despite what the debated frequency is, there is still the damn possibility that it can happen so it's a personal choice. All I am saying is that it MUST be higher than 1 or 2 percent considering I have read an abundance of literature online from Fin/Propecia users complaining about the drug. Just Google Fin side effects and you'll get a massive amount of results, endless results. This isn't some mass hysteria, this is real. And who's to say that just because a fin user doesn't perceive any sides that something underlying/developing isn't going on that could pop up later in life?

That's a cool statement. I didn't know that androgens were members on any royal lineage.

If there was a royal lineage, DHT would be king. Nice attempt at being a smart ass though. You sound like a 12 year old boy arguing with an older sibling.

You then go on to make all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about how horrible the side effects are because this one said something or that one aid something, web postings, anecdotal evidence etc.

Well, you are using that data to make a judgement. That is bad data, assessed improperly, resulting in a bad judgement.

The data from peer reviewed clinical research is better data. The research design of these studies is better than the research design involved in searching around google and just pulling random stuff up and assigning it as truth, as fact.

NEITHER one of these ways of assessing information is perfect, neither the clinical research studies NOR jumping around on google. Each has its weaknesses.

However, the research approach of just jumping around on google and coming to conclusions is FAR WEAKER and FAR WORSE than the approach taken by the peer reviewed research studies published in medical journals.

To each their own. Research journals or not, so many have been negatively impacted by the drug and there is plenty of users on this forum to start with. Sure you could make the claim/argument that only the vocal people that have had a bad experience on Fin will come to the internet to voice it but that's just as theoretical as the argument itself. How do you know only the people that have bad experiences on Fin come to the internet to talk about it? Is there a possibility that a lot of people have sides on Fin, quit the drug and move on with life or just choose not to talk about it? Of course. What about all the good experiences that people had on Fin? Doesn't that negate in some way about only the "bad experiences being talked about theory?"

And just to throw this out there, it's much easier to relate to a person's experience/story and to interpret it as such than to read a medical journal study...