gc83uk's september '13 procedure.

[Arashi]

After all the failures with previous cases and the 50 graft tests performed by HASCI, we finally need to get this sorted out: does regrowth really occur and if so, at what percentage.

gc83uk who has done great things for this forum in the past is willing to help out and document his upcoming procedure in such a way that we'll finally get the data we all seek. The idea is to get shaven pre-op photo's with which we can pinpoint every single graft. It's going to be a hell of a job to track and analyse all the grafts but I'm willing to chip in a good amount of time and if others want to help out too, I'm sure this is doable.

So, Gaz, you said you were busy the days before your procedure. In that case it might be a good idea to start shooting and posting pre-op pictures just about now ? There are only a few weeks left and this time, we really need to get this right.

[hellouser]

Is there any way gc83uk could get someone else to take the photographs? Someone who's an experienced photographer?

[Arashi]

Is there any way gc83uk could get someone else to take the photographs? Someone who's an experienced photographer?

That would of course be the best. I'd have no problems to chip in money to get a professional shoot the photo's. But gc83uk showed he can shoot quite nice photo's himself in his previous procedures, so I doubt it's necessary. But that's why it would be good to start now, cause if the photo's are not good enough, we could always still try to get a professional to shoot them. We really need to get this right, for once and for all.

[hellouser]

That would of course be the best. I'd have no problems to chip in money to get a professional shoot the photo's. But gc83uk showed he can shoot quite nice photo's himself in his previous procedures, so I doubt it's necessary. But that's why it would be good to start now, cause if the photo's are not good enough, we could always still try to get a professional to shoot them. We really need to get this right, for once and for all.

We could definitely get a photographer to take some pictures for us, we could all pitch in some money and for 3 or more photo sessions. Shouldn't cost too much, maybe about $70/hr which is enough time to take pictures in a single session. These aren't posed shots or commercial, just documentary which really only relies on everything being IN FOCUS, well lit with no hard shadows up close and preferably with both a standard zoom lens and a macro lens.

I could type up the requirements for the photographer if need be to make sure they understand 100% the intent of the photographs? Axel has seen my graphic design/photography portfolio, I'm sure he could vouch for my knowledge in photography.

[Arashi]

We could definitely get a photographer to take some pictures for us, we could all pitch in some money and for 3 or more photo sessions. Shouldn't cost too much, maybe about $70/hr which is enough time to take pictures in a single session. These aren't posed shots or commercial, just documentary which really only relies on everything being IN FOCUS, well lit with no hard shadows up close and preferably with both a standard zoom lens and a macro lens.

I could type up the requirements for the photographer if need be to make sure they understand 100% the intent of the photographs? Axel has seen my graphic design/photography portfolio, I'm sure he could vouch for my knowledge in photography.

Sure seems like a good idea but if Gaz wants to try himself first, let's see what he can come up with. He shot good photo's before, he knows how to shoot good photo's so I have faith he'll be able to manage himself.

[cocacola]

I am ready to contribute some time, if we can get a good full picture of gc scalp preop, then we can split it in parts and analyze.

[hellouser]

Sure seems like a good idea but if Gaz wants to try himself first, let's see what he can come up with. He shot good photo's before, he knows how to shoot good photo's so I have faith he'll be able to manage himself.

It's difficult though. You need a tripod and set everything from the camera to the room where the lighting will be the same months later.

I've seen his photos and they are definitely good, but it'd also be nice to know which grafts grow back as singles/doubles after regeneration (if theres regeneration). So close up macro shots would be great as well as a general shot of the entire back of his head but in FULL detail and the best focus/sharpness possible.

[JJJJrS]

In my opinion:

- You'll have to include the recipient area in the analysis. It's not enough to look at just the donor. Additionally, the photos will have to be clear enough that you can tell how many hairs are in a follicular unit, which can be very tricky.

- Analyzing every extraction and implantation point will be nearly impossible for a full-sized procedure. It's hard enough getting consistent, clear photos of one spot, let alone mapping the entire head at that level of detail. As someone who examined 100+ extraction points from gc's procedures, it took a huge amount of time and I can't imagine anyone having the patience and time to go beyond that.

I think the first thing you're going to have to do is come up with a set of clear guidelines to determine exactly what you feel is enough evidence to prove/disprove the procedure. If your plan is to analyse all extractions/implantations, there's a great likelihood that you won't succeed. It has to be more manageable than that. The 50 graft test procedure was perfect in that regard, but HASCI blew it. At this point, I don't see what information gc can provide that we couldn't get from his previous procedures.

[Arashi]

In my opinion:

- You'll have to include the recipient area in the analysis. It's not enough to look at just the donor. Additionally, the photos will have to be clear enough that you can tell how many hairs are in a follicular unit, which can be very tricky.

- Analyzing every extraction and implantation point will be nearly impossible for a full-sized procedure. It's hard enough getting consistent, clear photos of one spot, let alone mapping the entire head at that level of detail. As someone who examined 100+ extraction points from gc's procedures, it took a huge amount of time and I can't imagine anyone having the patience and time to go beyond that.

I think the first thing you're going to have to do is come up with a set of clear guidelines to determine exactly what you feel is enough evidence to prove/disprove the procedure. If your plan is to analyse all extractions/implantations, there's a great likelihood that you won't succeed. It has to be more manageable than that. The 50 graft test procedure was perfect in that regard, but HASCI blew it. At this point, I don't see what information gc can provide that we couldn't get from his previous procedures.

Of course the recipient has to be included. That's why we need photo's of every graft, including recipient. And yes, in good enough detail to count hairs. Which we could in gc83uk's previous case.

Re managability: it's indeed going to be a hell of a job. But I'm confident that it's doable if we divide work. I'm willing to chip in a good amount of time.

[gc83uk]

Thanks for starting this thread Arashi.

How about if I upload a couple of photos as test shots, just to see the quality and come to some agreement on what is expected.

The things that always concern me with taking photos are the following:

1) Adequate lighting
2) Taking photos in the same place every time.
3) Length of the hair. I have a feeling the length at the moment is slightly too long, but a few test shots can easily sort that one.
4) I've noticed on some photos a shadow from 1 hair can appear as 2 hairs. The shadow hair looks like a thinner hair, which can obviously confuse matters.

Might take a couple now perhaps.

And yes JJJJrS the recipient will have to be snapped too. That's a given!

[Arashi]

All very valid points Gaz. A few test photo's would be nice indeed.

I'm also thinking about how we can link the different photo's. I think it might be an idea to use a marker and put some ink dots on several places of your scalp. This would at least make it a lot easier to link all pre-op photo's together.

[JJJJrS]

Of course the recipient has to be included. That's why we need photo's of every graft, including recipient. And yes, in good enough detail to count hairs. Which we could in gc83uk's previous case.

Re managability: it's indeed going to be a hell of a job. But I'm confident that it's doable if we divide work. I'm willing to chip in a good amount of time.

I don't know man. That's a huge, huge task. 1400 extraction points, 1400 implantation points... Doing 100+ took me weeks and I had a lot more free time than usual then.

First thing is the pictures though which is probably just as hard as the analysis. If you get it going, we can take a look but I'm very, very skeptical it will work out.

I still think 50 graft test or NW6/7->NW1/2 transformation are the best proofs.

[Arashi]

I still think 50 graft test or NW6/7->NW1/2 transformation are the best proofs.

Of course. But HASCI tried two times and they messed up. We can just sit back and mock, or we can take things into our own hands and at least try !

Gc83uk's case is perfect for analysis since his hair density is relatively low, both in donor and recipient, which makes it a lot easier to pinpoint grafts. I think this is THE chance and we need to at least try it !

[hellouser]

4) I've noticed on some photos a shadow from 1 hair can appear as 2 hairs. The shadow hair looks like a thinner hair, which can obviously confuse matters.

This is usually from hard lighting, like putting a lamp next to your head. What you need to do is diffuse the lighting, as in, soften in. This is what softboxes and umbrellas do. This is also the very same problem you see in portrait shots outside in sunny vs. cloudy days. The difference is exactly this:



So outside its like this:



From my RU, CB Minox log I've been taking photos in my bathroom which has lights that are long flourescent bulbs but are behind a frosted white plastic. Without the camera's built-in flash, I get soft light *every single time* and I usually take photos at night so that I get the same light each time as well. A similar approach would be best incorporated in future pictures.

BOTTOM LINE: you need a LARGE light source but with some sort of a transparent screen to diffuse it all to cast that soft shadow. You can use large flood lights behind white bed sheets and get the same result, kind of like this:



Notice how the shadow behind the baby is soft? If there was no screen, that shadow would have hard straight lined edges.

This same practice is used for taking simple product shots that are relatively small, its very easy, look at the setup:

[gc83uk]

Hellouser, thanks!

All noted. Quick question for you. The camera I have been using for the past couple of years is just a bog-standard Nikon coolpix.

However in the office I have a samsung camera, I think this is the model

Can you tell me would there be any benefit using the £400 camera over the cheaper Nikon?

I've just took about 20 pics, so I'll upload a couple of the best to the dropbox account in a few mins.