Fin Doseage Question...

[KO1]

Is there any data that measures hair counts rather than systemic DHT levels? That's the key variable, as you surely know, DHT is not an endocrine hormone, and DHT levels within the target tissue (hair follicle) are more important than systemic.

Take the scalp skin DHT level data. They show that 0.05mg is almost as good as 1mg in DHT suppression, however we know that 1mg is better at retaining hair.

Lower doses are effective, and a good option for those with sides, but nothing suggests they are "as" effective as 1mg.

[Dan26]

Based on all that information, this seems like the most reasonable thing to do if you want to take fin, but are worried about side effects.

Start with 0.05mg/day. It should give you some results compared to the other doses. If not, up to 0.2mg/day, as this is proven to give solid results in terms of haircount. Still nothing!? Take the daily recommended dose, or perhaps try 0.5mg EOD etc.

And again, given all of the above information, i can't help but wonder why Merck did not use 0.05mg/day in their dose ranging studies. It makes no sense.

[Jcm800]

Julio - i take it you have tried Finasteride yourself? What was your experience on it please?

[JulioGP]

Julio - i take it you have tried Finasteride yourself? What was your experience on it please?

Jcm800,

I used 1mg for 1 year and had to stop because of side effects. But at the time I wore 1mg every day. With the negative Kératene, I will start a test with 1mg every other day and take the exams at the end of this month.

This year that I used, I startedr having the side at the end of the third month. But in the second week I had a huge reduction in force. Then, low libido and erectile dysfunction. Some guys was told me that these effects were passengers and that after a while they disappeared while continuing treatment and so I did. But it not happened. When completed 1 year of treatment, I interrupted. It took me about 6 months or more to recover from all the side effects. Currently I want to do the test every other day, because I think it is much less aggressive for the body since the Drug continues acting.

I agree with KO1, but I also believe that if systemically DHT is low, certainly in the follicles will still be too, because DHT increases in follicles through the system itself. I think it is possible to reduce the DHT in the follicles and DHT remains high in the system (with a topical product that is not systemically absorbed), but not vice versa.

Let's see what the tests will show and I'll use the same method that always utilized (including Kératene) which is the ELISA.

[ryan555]

Julio - the first graph shows DHT inhibition after a single dose of fin. I think the others show results of continued use, after the drug has begun building up in your system. In other words, if you were going to take it only once a week, you'd need a high dose. If you are going to take it every day, you can probably take as little as .05 mg and get the desired effect.

[KO1]

You can get the desired effect sure, but there's no basis to say it will be "as" effective as 1mg. Remember, 1mg fin will inhibit DHT at different levels in different people, some will see a lot of inhibition and it will be overkill, while others it will not be enough. 1mg appears to be the "sweet spot" for the widest population.

So for someone like JulioGP, it makes sense to start with 1mg, and then cut down if sides are persistent. Or start with microdose and work your way up....but I agree with your point - something is better than nothing!

[JulioGP]

ryan555, I guess.

The first graph shows how much DHT is reduced and the number of days depending on the dose. It is complete. Others may show continuous use, but the information is already quite complete in the first graph.

My idea is to start with a dose every other day for 1mg and depending on my result, decrease to 1 mg every 2 days. The graph clearly shows that in 2 days, DHT increases very little compared with the following day dosing.

KO1,

I agree with you. Probably the action in each one will be different. The wisest thing to do is actually monitoring through blood tests and be alert for any side effect.

[Dan26]

Guys I'm telling you, 0.05mg/day is the way to go.

Look at all the data carefully. First, remember that the dose ranging study concluded 1mg to be around 25% more effective than 0.2mg in terms of hair count. What could be the reason for this? Look at the charts, 1mg reduced scalp DHT by 64%, and 0.2mg reduced scalp DHT by 55%. Makes sense 1mg would be superior. Then look at 5mg, reduced scalp DHT by 68%, again, makes sense that 5mg would be even more superior. But, keep in mind that in the dose ranging study, all doses were done for 6 months, except 5mg. 5mg was done for 12 months, which further explains the increased hair count.

Now, look at the data for 0.05mg/day. Scalp DHT reduced by 62%! Almost the same as for 1mg/day. And, serum DHT was only reduced by 50% as opposed to over 70%. I find it odd that 0.05mg/day would have more scalp DHT reduction than serum DHT reduction, but that is what the data shows.

Unfortunately 0.05mg/day was never included in the dose-ranging studies, but I'm connived it would perform on par with 1mg/day. Again, does not make sense intuitively, but the data indicates this.

Also when you look at DHT reduction after single doses, it is even more incentive to start low. A higher dose shoots your DHT way down after a single dose. A small dose like 0.05 only knocks it down a little after a single dose, but we know that 0.05/day repeatedly cuts serum DHT by 50%. This means it is a gradual decrease, which is likely easier on our bodies.

[KO1]

Now, look at the data for 0.05mg/day. Scalp DHT reduced by 62%! Almost the same as for 1mg/day. And, serum DHT was only reduced by 50% as opposed to over 70%. I find it odd that 0.05mg/day would have more scalp DHT reduction than serum DHT reduction, but that is what the data shows.

Not exactly, 5AR2 inhibition should inhibit scalp DHT more than serum, as 5AR2 is heavily present in the scalp.

Unfortunately 0.05mg/day was never included in the dose-ranging studies, but I'm connived it would perform on par with 1mg/day. Again, does not make sense intuitively, but the data indicates this.

No, the data does not indicate this. All data shows is it is effective above 0.2mg, with a flattening over 1mg.

http://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622%2899%2980052-8/abstract

[Dan26]

Not exactly, 5AR2 inhibition should inhibit scalp DHT more than serum, as 5AR2 is heavily present in the scalp.

[/url]

Ahh ok, thanks, didn't know that.

No, the data does not indicate this. All data shows is it is effective above 0.2mg, with a flattening over 1mg.

http://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-96...052-8/abstract

Bro you did not read and/or understand my post properly...I don't want to rehash, just read it again more carefully. If 0.05 was included, according to the data, it would be reasonable to assume 0.05/day would perform on par with 1mg.

The key is scalp DHT. There is clearly a direct correlation to hair count and scalp DHT in the dose-ranging studies. What makes you think haircount would not be close between 0.05/day and 1mg/day? Scalp DHT reduction is nearly the same.

It is unfortunate that0.05 or a dose from 0.04-0.2 was not included in dose ranging studies...

[Jcm800]

Thanks guys for all the above, this stuff is frightening to me, but if i were to try it, would 0.25mg Mon and Thurs be ok do you think? I guess it's down to me to try it ultimately tho..

[Superstar]

I've been thinking about trying 0.25 (4 small pieces) 2 times a week also. i've had the pills since October, but have been holding out. I recently read a new study that came out a few weeks ago where the doctor gave it to guys who never had a sexual side effect, got on fin and had them, then they got off it for 3 months and still have the sides.

Very tough decision

[Jcm800]

Which study was that? Do you have a link?

[JulioGP]

I actually had the side and these persisted for more than 6 months. This season made me think I would not use the Fina again. When Kératene appeared, I thought it was my hope, but my exams not proved efficient.

The hair keeps disappearing fast. Therefore I will make more this attempt, even having suffered side effects in the past. But now there are more studies to help bring a dose less aggressive.

Look what I intend to do. I'll use a dose of 1mg and then depending on what goes in my result, or we decrease the dose or I keep.



For my theory (red line), instead of using every other day, can you use every 3 days with no problems. After the first low DHT would only need for a "maintenance" of the same, as it will still be low. The graphs show that in three days the DHT remained at a level of approximately 32ng/dl the 37ng/dl, ie, a very small increase, and it probably will not negatively affect baldness.

There may be some changes on it, but it's an idea.

[Dan26]

Guys can someone address why 0.05mg/day would not be the best way to take this drug?

Look at the chart, slight decrease after one dose at 0.04mg. We know that daily doses of 0.05mg cuts DHT by 50%, and Serum DHT by 62% (which is almost the same as for 1mg). So take daily doses of 0.05 and your DHT slowly decreases by 50%, rather than a rapid drop after one daily dose at a higher amount.

Someone please explain why it would not be best to do 0.05mg/day.