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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan26 View Post
    0.01 does nothing man. would neeed to start at 0.05 as the absolute lowest. Also, will fin dissolve in water, and how long will it be stable? People who micodose fin generally use ethanol.
    That's not the point. Starting with .01 would simply let your body adjust at a micro dose, if you're one of those guys who is terrified of side effects. Of course you'd have to work your way up to a higher dose. It does not completely dissolve in water - you have to shake it up and that would give you an imperfect distribution. You could dissolve it in vodka.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan555 View Post
    That's not the point. Starting with .01 would simply let your body adjust at a micro dose, if you're one of those guys who is terrified of side effects. Of course you'd have to work your way up to a higher dose. It does not completely dissolve in water - you have to shake it up and that would give you an imperfect distribution. You could dissolve it in vodka.
    I mean that 0.01 does nothing in terms of lowering DHT. You may as well take placebo! Need to do atleast 0.05mg bro.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan26 View Post
    I mean that 0.01 does nothing in terms of lowering DHT. You may as well take placebo! Need to do atleast 0.05mg bro.
    You're missing my point. IF one of these guys on the forum who is hysterical about having permanent sides from fin really wanted to stick their toe in the water, they could start with as little as .01. This would likely have no effect on hair loss, but it would also be highly unlikely to cause any significant side effects. After a few days on that dose, they could add more, working their way up to an effective dose sloooooowly without shocking their system with a higher dose. It's just like tapering off a drug, only in the reverse.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan555 View Post
    You're missing my point. IF one of these guys on the forum who is hysterical about having permanent sides from fin really wanted to stick their toe in the water, they could start with as little as .01. This would likely have no effect on hair loss, but it would also be highly unlikely to cause any significant side effects. After a few days on that dose, they could add more, working their way up to an effective dose sloooooowly without shocking their system with a higher dose. It's just like tapering off a drug, only in the reverse.
    I see what your saying bro. But as far as I know, doses as low as 0.01mg literally have no effect whatsoever on your body. I know it seems weird that from 0.01-0.04 there is no changes then at 0.05 suddenly DHT is reduced. I guess if these people have no knowledge of that, then they could try it, and if they got sides on anything less than 0.05mg, it would be placebo effect lol.

    *btw i could be wrong, might be 0.04mg where body is finally effected.

  5. #15
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    Hello LCP,

    I searched the same information you some time ago and found that, see:


    "I posted the following in another thread, but I thought it might be helpful as its own topic. This info is floating around in bits & pieces all over this forum, but collecting it all in one place may be useful.

    In human clinical trials, the pharmacokinetic half-life of finasteride was found to be 6 - 8 hours. However, the pharmacodynamic lifetime of finasteride action, measured in terms of the drug's ability to reduce the systemic concentration of DHT, after a single oral dose of between 0.04 and 5mg, was greater than or equal to 7 days. See the first chart below (taken from the book entitled, Integration of Pharmaceutical Discovery and Development: Case Histories):



    You can see how a single dose of the drug reduces the systemic concentration of DHT over a 7 day period. That leads one to believe that taking finasteride daily is probably not necessary to maintain one's hair count. However, it also leads one to believe that taking one dose every 5 - 7 days is probably unwise as well, because while the DHT remains reduced over the 7 day period it does slowly rise over that time.

    Then the question is how often should one take finasteride? Based on the above chart, I'd say it would probably be pretty safe to take it every other day or even three times a week (MWF). You may even get away with twice a week (MTh).

    The next question is how much (as in mg) should one take? Take a look at the charts below (the first three charts are from a Propecia study story (circa 1998) by Sherman Frankel, a University of Pennsylvania professor of physics):



    You can see from the Serum DHT graph above that from doses of 0.2mg all the way through 5mg, the amount of inhibited DHT was about the same.



    You can see from the Scalp Skin DHT graph above that from doses of 0.05mg all the way through 5mg, the amount of inhibited DHT was about the same.



    You can see by the above graph that the dose dependence appears also in the accompanying rise in T, one-onehundredth the 5 mg dose being identical in its effect on the scalp skin testosterone.



    The above graph (origin unknown) indicates how the following dosages of finasteride inhibit DHT:

    - 0.2mg = 61.7%
    - 0.5mg = ~65%
    - 1mg = 68.7%
    - 5mg = 69.2%

    All pretty close in terms of percentages.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________


    I'm no scientist, but the first plasma DHT graph seems somewhat at odds with the rest of the graphs:

    - 0.2mg reduces DHT to ~ 55 ng/dl
    - 0.5mg reduces DHT to ~ 42 ng/dl
    - 1.5mg reduces DHT to ~ 32 ng/dl
    - 5.0mg reduces DHT to ~ 25 ng/dl

    The first graph deals in blood serum levels. The rest in percentages of inhibited DHT. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to compare the two. Perhaps plasma DHT levels of 55 ng/dl are not much different than levels of 25 ng/dl when it comes to preventing MPB? I welcome others more expert in these matters to chime in.

    Regardless, I conclude:

    It's probably pretty safe to take finasteride every other day or even three times a week (MWF). You may even get away with twice a week (MTh).

    Dosage is a matter of personal experimentation. Merck recommends 1mg daily for optimal results. Maybe they are right, but when you consider the above information; the personal testimonials of many forum members who have successfully reduced dosages; and, the fact that Merck is a pharmaceutical company interested primarily in profits, then I think a healthy bit of skepticism is warranted.

    If you want to save money and/or reduce side effects, I'd suggest tapering down slowly, and paying very close attention to any changes, until you reach a regimen which preserves your hair and eliminates sides. Keep a hair loss journal complete with weekly photos if it helps.

    Perhaps something like this (if you're splitting 1mg Propecia tablets):

    - 1mg every other day for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
    - 1mg MWF for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
    - 1mg TTh for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -

    - 0.5mg MWF for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
    - 0.5mg TTh for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -

    - 0.25mg MWF for one month. If still experiencing sides, but not losing hair, then -
    - 0.25mg TTh for one month. If still experiencing sides, stop the meds.

    If one month at each dosage doesn't work for you, adjust to a time period which does. Obviously, if you start losing hair anytime during the tapering-off period, then you've gone too low and you have an important decision to make - do I up the meds again to preservation levels and deal with sides or just stop completely? Only you can answer that.

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    Regarding finasteride and conceiving children. I am aware of no evidence that men taking finasteride while trying to conceive will cause birth defects. Here is some information to consider according to Dr. Richard Lee:

    - "In rabbit fetuses exposed to finasteride in utero from days 6-18 of gestation at doses equivalent to 5000 times the recommended human dosage, no evidence of malformations was observed. This result would be expected, since there was no exposure during the critical period of genital system development in rabbits."

    - "When pregnant rhesus monkeys were given intravenous finasteride at a level equivalent to at least 750 times the highest estimated exposure of pregnant women to finasteride from semen of men taking 1mg/day, there were no genital abnormalities observed."

    - "In the human embryo, the sensitive period of external genitalia development is during the 7th - 9th weeks of gestation. Although the chromosomal and genetic sex of an embryo is determined at fertilization by the kind of sperm, either Y-bearing or X-bearing, that fertilizes the ovum, male and female morphological characteristics do not begin to develop until the seventh week...Since the sensitive period of development of the external genitalia in the human embryo is the 7th to 9th weeks of gestation, there can be no danger to the child if the father is taking finasteride at the time of conception. Originally, Merck decided to err on the side of caution and warned against the possible problem of finasteride transfer in semen. This warning has since been removed from the package insert. Considering the medical/legal implications of a theoretically possible link of finasteride treatment to birth defects, it is reasonable to assume that Merck & Co. must be very confident in knowing that impregnating a woman while taking finasteride absolutely does not cause birth defects."

    - "Nor is there any evidence of birth defects when the father taking finasteride has intercourse with the pregnant mother during the critical periods of sexual development. The in utero effects of finasteride exposure during the period of embryonic and fetal development (gestation days 20-100) were evaluated in the rhesus monkey, a species fairly predictive of human development. Intravenous administration of finasteride to pregnant monkeys at doses as high as 800ng/day (at least 60 to 120 times the highest estimated exposure of pregnant women to finasteride from semen of men taking 5mg/day) caused no abnormalities in male fetuses."

    - "Still, Merck retains this admonition: "Women should not handle crushed or broken Propecia tablets when they are pregnant or may be potentially pregnant because of the possibility of absorption of finasteride and the subsequent potential risk to a male fetus. Propecia tablets are coated and will prevent contact with the active ingredient during normal handling, provided that the tablets have not been broken or crushed."

    - "Considering that intravenous administration of finasteride to pregnant experimental animals during the critical periods of sexual development didn't cause birth defects, there is no reason to believe that transdermal absorption of finasteride from handling broken tablets could cause birth defects in the male child. But, since Propecia has not been approved by the FDA for use by women, Merck has nothing to lose by retaining this warning. In fact, it has good p.r. value."

    - "So, can finasteride cause birth defects? Yes, there is a theoretical possibility that it can, but the probability is close to nil, when finasteride is taken in the recommended dosages. Since Propecia was approved by the FDA on 22 December 1997 and Proscar on 28 August 1996, millions of doses of finasteride have been taken and there has not been a single case report of a birth defect. Now that's reassuring information."

    - "We do caution men who desire to father children to discontinue finasteride use two week prior to planned conception. Actually, there have been no reports of birth defects due to taking finasteride. But because birth defects can occur in women who have a DHT deficiency, the warning is mandated by the FDA for the 5mg. tablets."

    Despite the above information, some guys (and their significant others) are still concerned about it. Something to keep in mind is the half-life for dissociation of the inhibitory complex between finasteride and its enzyme target is in excess of 30 days. Half-life is defined as "the time required for something to fall to half its initial value." So, it works out something like this:

    Day 1 - 100%
    Day 30 - 50%
    Day 60 - 25%
    Day 90 - 12.5%
    Day 120 - 6.25%
    Day 150 - 3.125%
    Day 180 - 1.5625%

    And, so on... So, at 6 months you still have around 1.56% remaining to be dissociated. That's also something to keep in mind regarding how long side effects can last for the average man (nevermind those who are genetically predisposed to severe side effects).

    So, obviously, I don't know if or how finasteride could affect conception via semen. But if it can (which is what some are worried about), then discontinuing finasteride 2 weeks prior to planned conception, as Dr. Lee (and the FDA) prescribes, may not make much of a difference - it doesn't appear to be enough time. Unless the two week rule has something to do with the pharmacokinetic half-life or the pharmacodynamic lifetime of finasteride action, both being much shorter? If you have evidence that stopping for two weeks makes a difference, please present it. Based on the evidence thus far, it seems to me if you're going to stop for conception purposes, stop for the long-term, or don't bother at all. And, if you're going to stop for conception purposes, once your lady is pregnant, wear a condom for the duration of the pregnancy.

    Lastly, there's little doubt that after the first month of discontinuation you will be losing hair that finasteride was preserving for you, so weigh the decision carefully."


    This was one of the most comprehensive studies I had found. The same shows that it is unnecessary to take finasteride every day since the plasma remains low even after a few days. Most likely I will do this test here one month, taking Fina 1mg every other day, and post the results.

  6. #16
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    Is there any data that measures hair counts rather than systemic DHT levels? That's the key variable, as you surely know, DHT is not an endocrine hormone, and DHT levels within the target tissue (hair follicle) are more important than systemic.

    Take the scalp skin DHT level data. They show that 0.05mg is almost as good as 1mg in DHT suppression, however we know that 1mg is better at retaining hair.

    Lower doses are effective, and a good option for those with sides, but nothing suggests they are "as" effective as 1mg.

  7. #17
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    Based on all that information, this seems like the most reasonable thing to do if you want to take fin, but are worried about side effects.

    Start with 0.05mg/day. It should give you some results compared to the other doses. If not, up to 0.2mg/day, as this is proven to give solid results in terms of haircount. Still nothing!? Take the daily recommended dose, or perhaps try 0.5mg EOD etc.

    And again, given all of the above information, i can't help but wonder why Merck did not use 0.05mg/day in their dose ranging studies. It makes no sense.

  8. #18
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    Julio - i take it you have tried Finasteride yourself? What was your experience on it please?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcm800 View Post
    Julio - i take it you have tried Finasteride yourself? What was your experience on it please?
    Jcm800,

    I used 1mg for 1 year and had to stop because of side effects. But at the time I wore 1mg every day. With the negative Kératene, I will start a test with 1mg every other day and take the exams at the end of this month.

    This year that I used, I startedr having the side at the end of the third month. But in the second week I had a huge reduction in force. Then, low libido and erectile dysfunction. Some guys was told me that these effects were passengers and that after a while they disappeared while continuing treatment and so I did. But it not happened. When completed 1 year of treatment, I interrupted. It took me about 6 months or more to recover from all the side effects. Currently I want to do the test every other day, because I think it is much less aggressive for the body since the Drug continues acting.

    I agree with KO1, but I also believe that if systemically DHT is low, certainly in the follicles will still be too, because DHT increases in follicles through the system itself. I think it is possible to reduce the DHT in the follicles and DHT remains high in the system (with a topical product that is not systemically absorbed), but not vice versa.

    Let's see what the tests will show and I'll use the same method that always utilized (including Kératene) which is the ELISA.

  10. #20
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    Julio - the first graph shows DHT inhibition after a single dose of fin. I think the others show results of continued use, after the drug has begun building up in your system. In other words, if you were going to take it only once a week, you'd need a high dose. If you are going to take it every day, you can probably take as little as .05 mg and get the desired effect.

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