Stop the mythmaking! (Or why losing hair on minoxidil and dutasteride is not possible

[WarLord]

I see that this and other forums are still full of guys roboticly parroting misinformation with regard to the long-term efficiacy of minoxidil. Some people obviously have big problems to understand very simple things, so I will repeat and explain them in detail.

First of all, does minoxidil regrow hair? YES.

So does it interfere with the process of balding? OF COURSE, IT DOES.

So how is it possible that it "can't maintain" existing hair? Now we hit a logical limit in some people's brains. In reality, all the propaganda about minoxidil not being able to maintain hair has a single source: It comes from a certain guy nicknamed Bryan, who is raving agaist minoxidil on hairlosshelp.com and *****************.
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...VIEWTMP=Linear

He himself has never used minoxidil on his own (he says that he did, but elsewhere he confeses that he was pretty sloppy with it) and randomly picks up graphs from studies that he has never read. In reality, the picture that we get from all minoxidil studies doesn't suggest that the effect of minoxidil would be fundamentally different from that of 5-AR blockers. The peak of regrowth is achieved after 1-2 years in the majority of patients, then the AVERAGE curve of haircounts slowly decreases (similarly like in patients on finasteride), but individual differences are large and certain individuals can experience continuous regrowth even after 5 years of treatment (similarly like finasteride users in the recent 10-years' study).

The longest minoxidil study to date comes from 1990 (Olsen et al.). You can look at this graph and see that although the average curve of haircounts declines after 1 year, the average user in this study would reach the baseline after ca. 15 years. This is quite in accordance with my experience and experience of other long-term minoxidil users, who keep their hair on minoxidil for 15-25 years.



As far as I know, the graph that Mr. Bryan and his followers use against minoxidil is an edited version of a graph from Price et al. (1999):



I can't help myself, but I see stabilization or at worst a very small decline after ca. 60 weeks of treatment. Even the small decline would be quite expectable, because in every sample, you have responders and non-responders. Even if 90% men in some random sample were keeping their hair unchanged, those remaining 10% non-responders would push the curve down. Further, cycles of hairs that simultaneously enter the growth phase at the beginning of any hairloss treatment will start to desynchronize in the following months/years. This may lead to a certain decrease of haircounts, but it may not necessarily mean a worsening of the state of hair, because the decrease in density is usually compensated by the increase in hair quality. (To be objective, this particular study examined hair weights, i.e. hair quality.) Furthermore, this study was based on only 17 men and I wouldn't put much weight on it, especially because it demonstrates a peak of regrowth after mere 4 months, which no other study before has showed.

Now, what I wanted to emphasize most: By using anti-hairloss treatments, you basically increase the resistance of your hair follicles against the effect of DHT. In some people, hair follicles are too sensitive or their DHT activity is too high, so they start to lose hair very early and the process is very fast. In others, it proceeds at a slower pace, over more hair cycles, and hence their experience hairloss at a later age. In ca. 15-20% men, MPB never occurs.

Currently, we have two basic options for hairloss: minoxidil and 5-AR blockers (finasteride, dutasteride). Considering that the effect of minoxidil and dutasteride is dose-dependent, it logically means that further hairloss on these treatments is not possible, once you reach a certain "optimal" dosage. It's so simple and this is my fundamental argument against all those whining losers repeating over and over some silly babbles about "trying to halt the inevitable".

Unfortunately, there is no sufficiently long-term study (20+ years) on 5% minoxidil, so we don't know, in what a percentage of men this dosage can prevent hairloss until the end of their lives. Anecdotal experience suggests that some men are still at or above baseline after 20-25 years.
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=105275

The 5% version is undoubtedly suboptimal for many men and less effective than 5-AR blockers, but no comparative study of 10% or 15% minoxidil has been done (which is shameful and it shows, how much pharmaceutical companies care about the development of cure against hairloss).

Nevertheless, we have a biological model of Dominican pseudohermaphrodites showing that 75-80% suppression of DHT (via the lack of 5-AR II) is enough to avoid any hairloss completely. You can't achieve such a suppression with finasteride (in the majority of cases), but you can certainly achieve it with dutasteride that can suppress as much as 99% blood DHT. This speaks volumes. So much to all the mythmaking and misinformation infecting people's minds on internet forums.

[PatientlyWaiting]

all the propaganda about minoxidil not being able to maintain hair has a single source

I actually never read about that. From my own experience, before using forums or knowing anything about any product other than Rogaine and Propecia, I realized on my own that Rogaine could not handle my MPB on its own.

I understand that you have had great results with Rogaine, you have maintained for thousands of years on this stuff. That is great, I think you should just be proud of what Rogaine has done for you and not dispute so much with people who unfortunately did not get good results with Rogaine alone.

[gldngamer]

Warlord, i have read all over the internet forums that some people experience reflex androgenic and telogen effluvium reactions from finasteride due to dht up regulation and increased androgen receptors in the scalp. Moreover from what i have read on many threads finasteride causes increased testosterone as dht is reduced , and that kills the hairline of many people using whose hairs are sensitive to T. What do you have to say about this? surely there has to be some merit to these claims.

I believe fin has screwed my hairline about a cm or so, i shed badly on two different atempts using this drug. Im going for a bloodtest soon to check if i have elevated dht or t levels after using fin, and also to get my hormones etc baselined.

Plz correct me if im wrong bro..

[PatientlyWaiting]

Warlord, i have read all over the internet forums that some people experience reflex androgenic and telogen effluvium reactions from finasteride due to dht up regulation and increased androgen receptors in the scalp. Moreover from what i have read on many threads finasteride causes increased testosterone as dht is reduced , and that kills the hairline of many people using whose hairs are sensitive to T. What do you have to say about this? surely there has to be some merit to these claims.

I believe fin has screwed my hairline about a cm or so, i shed badly on two different atempts using this drug. Im going for a bloodtest soon to check if i have elevated dht or t levels after using fin, and also to get my hormones etc baselined.

Plz correct me if im wrong bro..

I think without fin, your hairline would have been screwed about 5 inches by now. That's an exaggeration but you know what I mean.

Hairlines get "worse" while on the evil pill called finasteride, because more likely fin will just slow down your receding hair line. Doesn't mean that just because you re on fin, your hair loss will not become worse. Some see hair loss halted, some see regrowth, some see hair loss slowed down. For me, it slowed it down. My MPB progressed at a slow pace. Doesn't mean it was finasteride that caused more hair loss.

You shed badly on two attempts on the drug, that is because the drug is actually working to thicken the hair for you. You do not drop the drug because of a shed.

[gldngamer]

I think without fin, your hairline would have been screwed about 5 inches by now. That's an exaggeration but you know what I mean.

Hairlines get "worse" while on the evil pill called finasteride, because more likely fin will just slow down your receding hair line. Doesn't mean that just because you re on fin, your hair loss will not become worse. Some see hair loss halted, some see regrowth, some see hair loss slowed down. For me, it slowed it down. My MPB progressed at a slow pace. Doesn't mean it was finasteride that caused more hair loss.

You shed badly on two attempts on the drug, that is because the drug is actually working to thicken the hair for you. You do not drop the drug because of a shed.

Yeah, you could be right maybe i should have rode out the sheds, i dropped treatment due to excessive shedding, and i have to tell you that my hairline was never a problem before , it was only my vertex.. I don't know why but i have a gut feeling that fin made it worse than what it was. But still, im sure you must have read about this before. I guess fin works for everyone and that i am just oversensitive to this drug.

Thnx for your input, i will start fin again after my blood test tomorrow.

[chrisis]

I posted a topic last year about my success with minoxidil. I advocate giving it a go before finasteride, because it's so much safer. It's a myth that minoxidil doesn't work in the hairline as well. The truth is there were no studies, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence it works, e.g. my case.

[WarLord]

I actually never read about that. From my own experience, before using forums or knowing anything about any product other than Rogaine and Propecia, I realized on my own that Rogaine could not handle my MPB on its own.

I understand that you have had great results with Rogaine, you have maintained for thousands of years on this stuff. That is great, I think you should just be proud of what Rogaine has done for you and not dispute so much with people who unfortunately did not get good results with Rogaine alone.

I don't dispute your experience. 5% minoxidil is too weak for a large percentage of men. But then you shouldn't spam internet forums with frustrating posts that "minoxidil won't maintain your hair". Similarly, I could do the same in the case of finasteride, because it didn't do anything for me. There is a very large variability in results. Many people - including many derms - still can't understand it and they tend to generalize, based on few individual cases.

[WarLord]

Warlord, i have read all over the internet forums that some people experience reflex androgenic and telogen effluvium reactions from finasteride due to dht up regulation and increased androgen receptors in the scalp. Moreover from what i have read on many threads finasteride causes increased testosterone as dht is reduced , and that kills the hairline of many people using whose hairs are sensitive to T. What do you have to say about this? surely there has to be some merit to these claims.

I believe fin has screwed my hairline about a cm or so, i shed badly on two different atempts using this drug. Im going for a bloodtest soon to check if i have elevated dht or t levels after using fin, and also to get my hormones etc baselined.

Plz correct me if im wrong bro..

If you are afraid of this reaction, you should have measured your hormones a long time ago. My opinion is that people erroneously connect the loss of their hair with the use of finasteride or dutasteride. In reality, the drugs simply didn't work and their hairloss continued. Some even claim that their hair was destroyed by minoxidil (an utter nonsense - unless you use the high-strength versions).

If you wanted to accuse 5-AR blockers of hairloss, you would have to start from a stable state, e.g. after a long-term minoxidil use. This is actually my case, because I began to use finasteride in June 2012, after 15,5 years on minoxidil. After a very promising start, when I was regrowing hair even on the sides of my forehead, everything turned upside down by 180 degrees after 4 months, and I was only experiencing annoying, continuous hairloss in my temples. It ended as late as after ca. 5 months in March, but my hair still hasn't fully regrown back. It is absolutely mindboggling for me, because my regimen was very stable during the whole time. So, you can see that the use of 5-AR blockers can be a very wild ride, in contrast with minoxidil that will simply stop your hairloss after 2-3 months, if it works.

Since I couldn't handle the losses, I added dutasteride on 9th February. It's difficult to say, if it has anything to do with the stabilization of my hairloss, but it is worrisome that I experience quite a bad acne on it. My libido is also increased. These symptoms would betray a hyperandrogenic reaction, but all my blood numbers show a deficit of androgens. So I do hope that this only results from some hormonal imbalance. On this case, you can see how important it is to check hormonal levels.

[PatientlyWaiting]

I don't dispute your experience. 5% minoxidil is too weak for a large percentage of men. But then you shouldn't spam internet forums with frustrating posts that "minoxidil won't maintain your hair". Similarly, I could do the same in the case of finasteride, because it didn't do anything for me. There is a very large variability in results. Many people - including many derms - still can't understand it and they tend to generalize, based on few individual cases.

And there would be nothing wrong with that, because it happens. Finasteride only slowed down my hair loss. At first it stopped it for several months, then it continued but at a much slower pace than when I was not on the pill.

I found that using both fin and rogaine gave my hair loss the most beneficial results. Using just one or the other didn't do much for me.

[michel sapin]

hi warlord , you seem to know your topic very well and i really need your help .
i'm a 23 yo french guys who has been on propecia for 19 month now with no result .
when i started i was nw 1,5 with miniaturized hair along the hairline . I thought that propecia 1 mg per day would be enough but now i'm almost nw 2,5 .

So 3 month ago ive added minoxidil liquid 5 for the hairline and things are even worse , ive got vellu hair which appears but ive receded bacward . But i stick with my regimen .

So i would like to know if duta could reverse the tings and stopped the miniaturization . I'm ****ing lost man and i need your help .