Nish, you really need to take your broscience elsewhere. The great majority of what you're saying has been disproved, is irrelevant, or matters so little that it is stupid to burden the average weightlifter with it. LMAO casein before bedtime, don't wanna go catabolic bro. The folks at GNC must rape your wallet every week.
He's technically not incorrect, just the scale at which it happens isn't as terribly as it is made out to be and over the course of a regular sleep cycle you aren't going to lose an any muscle mass. Catabolic states happen once the body has no other fuel source after significant time.
Originally Posted by Aames
Personally I've started taking a serving of cottage cheese just about every night before brushing my teeth and hitting the sack for the same purpose, plus just to reach macros and cottage cheese is nummy. But I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a casein supplement.
With that said:
If your wallet can take the hit and you enjoy it and feel it makes a difference. Go for it.
The bodybuilding supplement market is 100 times worse than the hairloss industry. Purely market driven selling you cheap crap. You see a few pictures and you’re sold. Whey protein is complete crap and cheese manufacturers use to have to pay to haul that waste away until someone figured out if you dried it and put it in a can people would buy it and buy it they do. Much of it comes from China as it is even cheaper, good luck with that. It’s also very highly insulingenic which is not good.
Joe Weider may he rest in peace and guys like Bill Phillips were some of the biggest scumbag marketers out there. They surely destroyed thousands of lives with the steroid glorified publications while making millions off the crap they sold and it is pure crap. Yeah Arnold was told to just shut up as Joe would do the talking but somehow these guys are glorified and people eat it up. It’s all complete and utter bullshit and it bears repeating these guys are scumbag marketers looking for any and every opportunity to make a buck.
Fitness magazines and bodybuilding websites are supplement catalogs plain and simple. Pick up a book and actually learn something. I bought my first protein powder back in 1975 from Bob Hoffman it’s tasted like shit but I still drank it. What I have learned over the years being a completely natural athlete while also setting powerlifting records in drug free powerlifting is that is comes down to food. Below is something I pulled off the internet but it a good quick read.
Consumers don't know everything about supplements- they just buy them. This allows manufacturers to sacrifice integrity for income. 60 billion dollars every year is spent this way in our little U.S. of A. And that's fine, but a good chunk of this goes strait to ex-convicts. Steroid dealers released from federal prison, turned legal. Not ethical- don't read that wrong- just legal. Legal in the most loose sense of the word. That said, we'll take a little gander into the history of supplementation, and why I'll be hugely disappointed if you purchase one.
Originally the entire industry started with two guys. Joe Weider you probably know of, and Bob Hoffman you probably don't. To sum it up, Weider took the marketing rout- and by now you should know the power of marketing. He gathered up everyone who looked good, gave them free supplements, and created their testimonials: "I owe everything to this product."
"This product" was vitamins and soy. But it was all sold as weight gainers, meal replacements, strength enhancers, weight loss formulas, and whatever else that would sell. Soy and vitamins. That's all it was. Soy, vitamins, and heavy marketing. Weider and Hoffman were selling the exact same thing. Hoffman spent more on the product however, whereas Weirder’s spending was used up in the marketing. Lo and behold nobody knows who Hoffman is. And it doesn’t even matter that he spent more on his products because they don’t do anything. Weider's marketing would suggest otherwise, but seriously, the bodybuilders were taking steroids. They weren't taking a mixture of vitamin B, soy, sugar, and guar gum. That should be horrendously obvious.
Then came along Irwin Johnson, better known as Rheo Blair. He changed his name to carry a little more market appeal. His idea was better quality protein, cream, and no fruit. The cream for hormone levels, and the fruit ban to prevent carbs tacking on any fat. Sound a little bit like the Atkins diet? It's what the Atkins diet spawned from. In 1972, Robert Atkins came up with his little ketogenic thing. It really began to gain popularity around 1997 primarily from the growing obesity percentage. But the popularity basically has come from word of mouth, as the effects of the diet become apparent almost immediately. The immediate effects aren't really fat loss, but it doesn't matter- because by the time the diet is no longer effective, or healthy, the person doing it has already given their testimonial to dozen people about its colossal effects. It grows popular pretty rapidly in those circumstances.
I say this because it's the market strategy built the entire supplement industry. But in supplements, it goes way past just being misleading, and into the realm of shameless sin. Most new companies would establish themselves by lacing their protein powders, weight gainers, etc with steroids. Their first batch would produce phenomenal results- obviously- D-bol is a little more effective than soy. Once the rumor gets out, everyone buys it. By the time suspicion catches up, every container with steroids was already sold, it tests clean, and the popularity gained would keep the sales high for just long enough to make a girthy fortune. Tricky. More deceitful than tricky, perhaps, but it's just business.
And it helps that the FDA doesn't monitor supplements really at all, look on some labels. There's little stars by every claim that says "Statement not evaluated by the FDA." They can fundamentally release anything with no boundaries to their marketing as long as they're clean when the massive popularity causes it to be tested. Or in the case of Hot Stuff, make sure your steroids can't be detected in testing- which at the time was methyltestosterone.
This form of marketing started in the early 80's with the government's illegalizing steroids. Before that, it was a tossup which cost more, steroids or vitamins- then the supply-demand curve shifts a little when they're made illegal. The price reflects the soaring demand with the minimal supply. So a new market was created in its place. I'm sure you've seen these today. Para-Deca, Testovar, and all of these supplements that could be confused with your average anabolic steroid, but these on the other hand, are legal. Not always effective, but if you believe you're on something that's fundamentally steroids, the placebo effect in itself is going to give you enough of a kick to trust it.
So to compete with this market, which was gaining popularity pretty quick, your natural supplements had to come back with some sort of a counter. So companies start kicking in stimulants so the consumer will "feel the supplement working". Sort of a scam, but it certainly sold well. Then the stimulant kick in itself catches on and Ultimate Orange comes out, a lot of you have probably heard of this. Ephedra and caffeine stacked together. Yes you will feel that. Will it cause some strokes? Perhaps. Deaths? Yeah, I think 12, but I don't remember the exact number. It could have been more. But it'll certainly bring in quite a bundle of profit before then.
Then the other marketing technique is reflective of how it all began. Just market your product effectively. "Effectively" in this instance being interchangeable with the word "immorally". Hype your supplements as if they're using incredible new medical advancements, or something of that nature, when in reality, it's the same old crap with a new company name. Bill Phillips made this work. Crap supplements? Yes. But phenomenal profits all the same. You're probably familiar with Met-Rx. Scott Connelly develops this company, Bill Phillips and James Bradshaw come along and promote it ten times beyond what it's worth, they add something along the lines of Clenbuterol to the first batch, and sell it exclusively until its effects create a huge popularity and their normal, cheap, non-drugged version can be distributed to every store in the United States.
Phillips and Bradshaw, Bradshaw being one of histories biggest steroid dealers, both go their own way. Phillips creates EAS (Experimental and Applied Sciences) and Bradshaw goes to SoCal. A good bundle of other companies have used the same method of attracting popularity to their line of supplements as well. Atlas Labs, Next Nutrition, a lot of big companies. They're run by retired steroid dealers who aren't just going to give up all their connections. Rather, they'll utilize them differently.
So when Bill Phillips started up EAS, he set somewhat of a new standard for the industry. The mainstream marketing. The marketing he utilized at Met-Rx was pretty much his driving philosophy in running EAS. But over time he aimed it so mainstream that he releases supplements that would benefit a very select group of people, advertising it as heavily beneficial to everyone who breathes air. The main one he's known for is his marketing of Beta-hydroxy beta-methylbutyrate (HMB). It's basically Leucine, an amino acid. Eat some protein and you’re eating it. Suddenly through his "tactical" marketing it gains popularity as this wonder pill, primarily through his use of phrases like "clinical research".
This is pretty funny because these little phrases worked so well that now everybody uses them for anything they're trying to promote. But really what it comes down to, is that I could perform these "clinical tests" myself and come up with any conclusion I felt like. You've probably heard of the term "GIGO" used in relation with computers before. Garbage in, garbage out. If the information you're putting into your research is trash, your end product is trash. Your entire conclusion is garbage. For example: I'm going to prove the effectiveness of the substance "indehiscent pepo" in increasing your body's ability to recruit more motor units, thus increasing your muscle's capacity to work, and therefore allowing adaptations for overall muscle volume. Eleven men were given indehiscent pepo in each meal during the course of the day for a 4 week period of time. The opposing group of eleven men were given a placebo. Each participant consumed 6 meals per day and performed a moderate resistance weight program.
What you hear as the conclusion is that "due to the heavy abundance of indehiscent pepo naturally occurring in the curcubits consumed in this double blind study, the positively tested group's average bodyweight went up 48% more than the plecebo group and their bodyfat percent had a 21% greater decline.
This really sounds awesome. You'd see some bar graph showing these drastic percentage differences, and it looks amazing. It would help to have a name like Norandrosteine-7 or Mesobolin, but the product itself could be marketed to be the single most effective supplement on the market today. Personal trainers everywhere would recommend it as it is "naturally occurring in specific foods" and clinically tested in a double blind study with proof of drastic effectiveness. It would flood the magazines, stock the shelves at every supplement store, and really all it is, is pickles.
Here's why the study works. First off, don't the words that you don't quite understand and the percentages of both bodyweight gained and bodyfat lost make it sound awesome? These two tactics are in every effective advertisement today. All I was giving was scientific names dealing with pickles. Get an encyclopedia and anyone can do it. Then I explained the results of the weight gain previously in half-scientific lingo. The results didn't come from that explanation, but it didn't have to, because the numbers were there, and that was more understandable and therefore more fascinating. Pickles have tons of sodium. Sodium makes you store more water. The more water you store, the more you weigh. The more you weigh, the less bodyfat percent you have. Percent being the key word. It's a ratio of total weight of bodyfat to total bodyweight. So really all you've done by eating mass amounts of pickles, is tacked on a pound or two of water. In a four week study, a couple pounds related to one pound, is a huge difference in terms of percentages. So in all reality, the study proves nothing. Garbage in, garbage out. But it sells, and that's the only goal of the producer. They don't see you as a human being, they see you as a consumer. And as a consumer, you're the key to a larger paycheck. So what new innovative marketing tactics can they employ to catch your attention? That becomes the main focus.
So I always get this question: "But there are some effective supplements right? I see those before and after pictures all the time. Something has to work to get them from the one picture to the next." Yes, I realize this, and maybe there are effective supplements. But the pictures don't show that. Generally the pictures are taken only a matter of hours apart, showing the two extremes one person can resemble in the span of a day. It's mostly done with lighting, tan cream, a razor, positioning, an airbrush, and a smile. The farther you pull your shoulders back and stick your gut out in the first picture, the greater the effect of the advertisement.
Then on the rare, clever occasion, the pictures won't even show you how someone went from one picture to the next, rather only how they went from one picture to the previous. It's a little way of twisting reality that most people aren't clever enough to think of. Save old newspapers and you can do the same thing. It's especially easy for bodybuilders. But really, in everyone's case, it's easier to gain fat than lose it. But bodybuilders have already spent all those years building up the muscle base. They go into their cut phase for a contest, diet twelve weeks, drop off the waterweight, do the show, then take a couple pictures holding that day's newspaper. A week and a half and a dozen cheesecakes later, the body packs on all the fat that it normally has, and completely swells up with water. So they go from looking amazing, to a week and a half later hitting their normal bodyfat percent, massively bloated with water. So at this point, their tan cream has worn off, they go a couple days without shaving, mess up their hair, grab an old newspaper, poke the gut out, pull the shoulders back and start clicking the "before" photos. The magazines use these to promote products that the people pictured hadn't used, and sign a check to put words in their mouth. So don't rely on them.
But effective supplements do kind of exist. They're just tainted by the fact that for every good supplement, there's a good 3,000 worthless ones. And you can't trust "clinical research", studies, or the graphs. You can't trust photos or published testimonials. You obviously can't trust advertisements. And you can't trust a good number of books do to the fact that they'll recommend the products where sponsorship provides their income. Most everything with relation to supplementation follows money. That's what's most profitable, therefore that's how it's run. And generally the more money spent on promotion and marketing, the worse the supplement is. The more spent on promotion, the less invested into the actual product- and so it becomes excessively popular garbage. It might as well be capsules of dirt. I could market that to sell millions.
My suggestion? Don’t take supplements at all. If you want to go against my suggestion, you’re more than welcome, but I will laugh at you. A lot.
Your rant wasn't terribly necessary. This thread was about suggesting a protein supplement which is perfectly reasonable. I take blame for aiding the out of control aspect of it. Where it comes to realistically down playing the business of supplements its things like Taurine tablets, L-Glutamine powder etc etc. Yes, they're all proven to do something to aide the body - but paying for it outside of what you get through food is where the broscience comes into play that makes the market viable. If you can sell something that doesn't really need to be sold separately, why not do it?
There is a reason that Creatine is billed as the only supplement scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to help the building of muscle. Hell they're recently finding it may have great benefits beyond just skeletal muscle.
You want to state your peace about not buying supplements thats fine, I welcome it. Just don't poison other threads with your negative point of view on the subject and start your own.
You're probably right.
I'll make it simple. Nobody needs protein supplements not only are they a waste of money but they probably do more harm then good. But of course I see that you don't agree with that opinion and that's okay not everyone is going to agree.
There is no proof that whey cause any harm. Plus, not everybody can eat enough meals aday to meet their protein requirements due to work, school, etc...
Originally Posted by topcat
If you can meet your requirements with natural food then no need for supplements, otherwise supplements become very beneficial as long as you don't over use them.
Once you understand that those that control the information control what you believe than you will look at things differently regardless of if it’s nutrition, ht or geopolitics. If you can get enough people to believe then it becomes truth but that does not mean that it is true it just means you got the masses to believe it. Sure right now you believe that some powdered form of protein that can sit on a shelf for years, cost pennies and make those that sell it huge fortunes is the right choice because of course their science tells you that you need to have 3-4 servings per day or heaven forbid you might go catabolic……….lol……………real food has no shelf life and there is very little profit in selling it and that is why 99% of the food market is made up of processed foods including that heated up toxic waste in the canister with the picture of the guy and his big muscles……….lol……………all ancient societies knew that the nutrition in protein rich foods was in the fat and that is why protein and fat are always tied together in nature the way it was meant to be eaten and digested slowly.
Jotronic the problem with the whey isolate that you are using is that it is very insulinogenic and spiking insulin levels is not good if your intention is to be healthy. You end up on a blood sugar roller coaster no different than consuming carbs not tied up in fiber as they are found in nature the reason being they are there to slow the whole process down.
But hey people can believe what they want to I don’t have a problem with that. I will say that I have been studying this subject for close to 40 years now and just like the ht industry it took me a long time to figure things out but I never gave up. Physically I just keep getting better even at 50 but it is only when I understood that usually the truth makes no one any money.
My suggestion for anyone would be to take in as much information as possible preferably through books as sponsored magazines and internet websites are of limited value and the old proverb applies whose bread you eat is whose song you sing. Here are a few books on just general subjects and you don’t have to believe anything that is written in these books. Just take the information in and sit back and watch and see if you can make connections as times passes through observation no different than reading the forums. I probably read between 50-100 books a year and these few I have chosen are because the information is completely the opposite of what most would say it true but just take it in and give it some thought. You might come to the conclusion that the information is being manipulated and then you begin to question everything which in the long run makes for better choices.
You don’t need a protein drink just eat a hard boiled egg
Ignore the Awkward: How Cholesterol Myths Are Kept Alive
Salt Sugar Fat How the Food Giants Hooked Us
Bodybuilding Smoke and Mirrors (vol 1 and 2 very expensive but just like ht when you understand the history you can better understand the present)
The Whole Soy Story
Real food has a short shelf life, comparatively (and there is no reason to not compare to processed otherwise the argument is dumb). I'm hoping you just misspoke.
I’m probably way to extreme into the nutrition and physical performance thing than most and my goals might be different so I will be the first one to say that a protein drink is infinitely better than a Diet Coke.
I take this stuff called creatine that my trainer sells me out of the trunk of his car. Am I still natty?
Originally Posted by Highlander
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