Difference between a 'mature hairline' and early MPB?

[drybone]

Thanks Drybone.

It does get really confusing for me about whether or not this hairline is perfectly normal or something to worry about at this time, as if I have any early signs I'd want to do something about it sooner rather than later. How can you tell if it turns into the dreaded 'U' shape though?

Your hairline goes straight across. This is good. Looks great

The middle will stay the same, but the left and right side starts to move backwards. That then is the beginnings of a receding hairline.

If this happens to you, go to your doctor or dermatologist and ask for their professional opinion. You still may not have male pattern baldness but odds are that you would. You can then arrest its progression with various medications.

Hope this helps

[burtandernie]

Well realistically by various medications really that could be narrowed down to just propecia since nothing else really works. My problem with propecia is that generally your going to go bald even with it slowly over the years so then your taking all those unknown risks plus the expense. Is it worth it? I am not sure, but I think in CB 03 01 if it comes out could be able to keep your hair for decades so I think a preventative cure is possible shortly. Regrowing vast amounts of hair is another story but I think that will for sure happen in 10 - 20 years.
I think the exact CM measurement of a mature hair line verses MPB is a grey area that different hair doctors would give you slightly different measurements. Just because it was documented a long time ago does not mean its right or accurate. Experts used to think the world was flat and they documented it but newer knowledge lead them to updated opinions.

[Aames]

Well realistically by various medications really that could be narrowed down to just propecia since nothing else really works. My problem with propecia is that generally your going to go bald even with it slowly over the years so then your taking all those unknown risks plus the expense. Is it worth it? I am not sure, but I think in CB 03 01 if it comes out could be able to keep your hair for decades so I think a preventative cure is possible shortly. Regrowing vast amounts of hair is another story but I think that will for sure happen in 10 - 20 years.
I think the exact CM measurement of a mature hair line verses MPB is a grey area that different hair doctors would give you slightly different measurements. Just because it was documented a long time ago does not mean its right or accurate. Experts used to think the world was flat and they documented it but newer knowledge lead them to updated opinions.

Pretty sure you can maintain forever with duta and RU. As long as you're a responder, obviously.

[drybone]

Well realistically by various medications really that could be narrowed down to just propecia since nothing else really works. My problem with propecia is that generally your going to go bald even with it slowly over the years so then your taking all those unknown risks plus the expense. Is it worth it? I am not sure, but I think in CB 03 01 if it comes out could be able to keep your hair for decades so I think a preventative cure is possible shortly. Regrowing vast amounts of hair is another story but I think that will for sure happen in 10 - 20 years.
I think the exact CM measurement of a mature hair line verses MPB is a grey area that different hair doctors would give you slightly different measurements. Just because it was documented a long time ago does not mean its right or accurate. Experts used to think the world was flat and they documented it but newer knowledge lead them to updated opinions.

I am 46 years old. I had the same attitude, even after I got my hair transplant. Why bother take FIN if you are just going to lose it eventually ? Might as well get DHT resistant hair put in right? Save all the hassle ?

One day it might be possible, but I can tell you doctors cannot come close to replacing what you already have in terms of density. Keeping what you have is far easier than transplanting it back.

So I have gone on FIN. Apparently you lose hair until age 65 due to MPB so I only have to be on it 19 years lol.

[mpb47]

Stop spreading shit that IS. NOT. TRUE.

Have you read -ANY- ****ing study on this? No. No you haven't. Because this has been studied for periods of over 10, 15 years and each time it comes back the same - Finasteride retains its effectiveness and the vast majority do not lose further ground.

Exactly- You never know what treatments will do unless you give them a try and a good years worth at that . This pic was taken this morning. This is 31+ years worth of mpb progression. I had just turned 17 when I was sure something was happening. Maybe closer to 34 years as a woman (my mothers stylistic) who cut my one day said it was starting at my cowlick right as I was starting puberty.

There were no treatment in the early days, but I went on minox as soon as It went OTC, mostly as a preventive measure. A couple of years later, shortly after turning 36, my crown started to suddenly and rapidly started to thin out. I increased minoxidil usage and later added propecia.

Propecia worked better than I expected. Crown started filling in and hairline came forward. So the stuff really works if you give it a chance. Unfortunately i got sides about 4 year later and had to stop. I was able to keep 50-60% of what propecia had given me in the back. And front just slowly began to creep back again.

My dilemma and what is so frustrating to me is this:
Minox alone is slowing things down but pictures show I am still gradually progressing. So do I risk propeci again knowing that I will most likely keep my hair for a long time or stay on minox only knowing I will slowly become horseshoed like my uncle/grandfather whose pattern I follow very closely?


I know propecia really works (for me anyway)_so it is frustrating trying to decide what to do. Some guys are getting 15 years without progression and I think I would have the same results just scared of getting sides again.


So these guys that don't think propecia works..yes it does,,it just the sides you have to worry about. Not sure what NW I am but hair does look much fuller when dry FWI.

[drybone]

Wow. what a story!!

Thanks for sharing. I have only been on Fin for a month so I have not seen any side effects.

have you considered a hair transplant?

[mpb47]

Wow. what a story!!

Thanks for sharing. I have only been on Fin for a month so I have not seen any side effects.

have you considered a hair transplant?

Yes and just recently I mentioned talking to a dr about it in another thread. The problem is (and not the Dr's fault) is they can't predict/stop progression. So you can't have just one and still not go bald later down the line.

Honestly if I could just tolerate Propecia in small amounts I think I would be just fine. So I am experimenting taking very small (.25) very infrequent doses.

Despite many sites saying the mother's side of the family is a myth, my loss is nothing like on my dad's side and exactly like it is on my mom's side. Even my grandma could see it before I did and told me the bad news. The problem is I am getting pretty close in age (late 40's) as to when my uncle went through a rapid mpb spurt and went from thinning in the back to an outright bald spot and it just kept going from there.

So I am hoping that if/when that starts happening to me, I can use propecia to hold it off.

Good luck with propecia you may never have any issues with it at all.
Someone suggested that I got sides because it worked so well for me.
But I do not believe it is that simple, because there is another guy on ************ that got better results than me and has been on it for 15 years with no problems. He even mentioned knowing 2 dr's that had been on it for 10 years with no problems. So for some it is never going to be a problem.

[drybone]

You are in the same boat as I am.

I have my grand dads hairline from my moms side. He slowly thinned on the top but the back was full. Its a NW3 A .

I went for a hair transplant because of these factors;

1) my grandad never went bald. He just continued to thin and thin. He ended up like a NW 4A at age 75 when he passed away.

2) I have researched MPS and most of the indications I get are that the amount of DHT necessary to kill your hair follicles depends on how much testosterone you have to convert. As we get older, we have less testosterone and by age 65 we no longer are producing enough DHT to damage your hair anymore. Not like when we were younger anyways.

3) So at age 46, knowing I had at worst a NW4 to work with for life, plus the fact I had only 19 years to go until i can keep the rest, I decided to go for it.

I did a 1333 HT to rebuild the 1/2 inch frontal hairline . All the grafts went into there. Amazingly , 300 hairs have survived and kept right on growing. Its been 3 1/2 months now and I see some sprouts and some germinating just below the surface.

I am going to get another 2500 put in next year to fill out the density of my NW 3 and touch up the density of my hairline.

I am taking finasteride so that I can keep the rest of my hair that I was supposed to lose until age 65. At that age we no longer have MPB but both men and women lose hair due to simply old age

I hope my story inspires you . You story was awesome.

[mpb47]

You are in the same boat as I am.

I have my grand dads hairline from my moms side. He slowly thinned on the top but the back was full. Its a NW3 A .

In my case, my pattern is the same as my mom's brother, father, and even grandfather. My grandmother thought it may go back even further than that was not sure. When she first told me this, I was not convinced because all I had was a little recession that had not changed in years (I didn't know it at the time but at that point, my late 20's, it was just a mature hairline). She was sure because hairline was becoming "pointy" just like my uncles did. But if it was true, then why did I not have his bald spot? She said it wouldn't start until I was 35-40 and sure enough around 36.5 is when I first discovered
that I had definitely started to thin in the back. I was shocked and also found it rather ironic because that is where my hair has always been the thickest. Probably why I have been able to conceal it for so long though that is getting harder and harder to do.

Not that I needed any more proof but I saw 2 photos of my uncle when he was 38. I was about 2 months away from turning 38 and it was uncanny that our spots were very similar. Instead of developing a round shaped spot, we both had oval shaped spots...think of a racetrack from viewed overhead.

I went for a hair transplant because of these factors;

1) my grandad never went bald. He just continued to thin and thin. He ended up like a NW 4A at age 75 when he passed away.

2) I have researched MPS and most of the indications I get are that the amount of DHT necessary to kill your hair follicles depends on how much testosterone you have to convert. As we get older, we have less testosterone and by age 65 we no longer are producing enough DHT to damage your hair anymore. Not like when we were younger anyways.

Yes it certainly seems to at least slow way down at that point. My uncle seemed to max out around NW6 around 60-65. He is around 72 now and it had not gotten any worse. Funny thing is it actually looks slightly better as his horseshoe doesn't seem to go down as far as it used to. Not that I am going to ask but I have noticed it and wondered if he was on propecia....not for hair as it is too late for that...but for prostate. It is a common problem at that age...as my dad could have cared less about his hair and didn't even begin to bald till about 70. He was put on avodart shortly afterwards and his spot filled in!!!

3) So at age 46, knowing I had at worst a NW4 to work with for life, plus the fact I had only 19 years to go until i can keep the rest, I decided to go for it.

Well that is problem #1 for me as I won't have such luck to stay at a 4. I will be a 6 without meds for sure. It will just take a me a long time to get there

I did a 1333 HT to rebuild the 1/2 inch frontal hairline . All the grafts went into there. Amazingly , 300 hairs have survived and kept right on growing. Its been 3 1/2 months now and I see some sprouts and some germinating just below the surface.

I am going to get another 2500 put in next year to fill out the density of my NW 3 and touch up the density of my hairline.

I am taking finasteride so that I can keep the rest of my hair that I was supposed to lose until age 65. At that age we no longer have MPB but both men and women lose hair due to simply old age

I hope my story inspires you . You story was awesome.

Hey man that sounds great! You now have a non issue from the sounds of it!

But for me you just hit on #2 why I can't go your route. Docs , esp when dealing with crown, insist on propecia. They say the crown never stops expanding and from all that I have read, I think they are right. So I had to tell the Dr I consulted with that I had used it, it worked great, but after about 4 years i got sides. Well all guarantees are out the door at that point and I completely understand and would be the same way If I was the one doing the work. Doc's love propecia far more than minox. I was just mentioning a freind in another thread. She is not a real dr but more like a Doc jr (not sure of the professional title) . I guess she didn't think I knew about it as she wanted me to get on asap as there was no reason I had to go bald. She kinda lectured me on how it would slowly creep up on me without it. Like I didn't already know that! She never once even mentioned minox only propecia. At that point I was too embarrassed to admit I had already been on it but had to get off of it.

I have a fresh supply in my bathroom closet (and even larger older supply in my bedroom closest). Just too chicken right now to try again, least on a reg basis. Probably what will happen is I will wait. And when it becomes a true bald spot in a few more years, I won't be able to stand it anymore and then get back on it on reg basis (but smaller dose) and just cross my fingers..ah so frustrating!

Good luck but sounds like you are home free for sure!

[burtandernie]

In my mind there is no difference between MPB and hair loss of any kind wherever it happens. If you see 1 miniaturized hair that does not grow back you have MPB/hair loss. How is losing hair not MPB I mean isnt that what it is?

[Dan26]

I noticed many younger guys who lift a lot develop mature hairlines, maybe 'prematurely' so to speak, but do not have MPB.

[drybone]

In my mind there is no difference between MPB and hair loss of any kind wherever it happens. If you see 1 miniaturized hair that does not grow back you have MPB/hair loss. How is losing hair not MPB I mean isnt that what it is?

MPB is 'male pattern baldness' which is caused by a hormone called DHT which is converted from testosterone. Women have far lower levels of testosterone so they dont have the DHT kill their hair follicles.

Men lose their testosterone, starting at age 30. Our levels start to decline until about age 45 we have lost half our testosterone.

By age 65 our testosterone levels are so low they can no longer convert enough into DHT to kill our remaining hair follicles on the top of our head. Whatever we have left at 65 remains.

The difference is this. At this age, both men and women are losing hair due to old age. Its not a 'male pattern baldness' issue anymore. In fact, its far more devastating to women who have had hair their whole lives.

At this point we will lose hair all over, not just on the top but sides and back too due to old age. The keys to maintaining our bodies in general would be exercise, diet , health care and genetics.

Hope this helps

[mpb47]

In my mind there is no difference between MPB and hair loss of any kind wherever it happens. If you see 1 miniaturized hair that does not grow back you have MPB/hair loss. How is losing hair not MPB I mean isnt that what it is?

Well practically speaking you are right. It is a matter of timing in like 85% of the time. In my case I had a hairline like a woman up till about 15. Then it slowly became concave and stayed that way for many many years. Sometime between my late 20's and mid 30's it started to recede again and at the same time my crown started thinning out. So I lost a small amount of hair in my teens then nothing else until aprox. 20 years later. That amount of time is the difference. For some it could be a much shorter amount of time and for others much longer before you start to develop mpb.

[drybone]

Well practically speaking you are right. It is a matter of timing in like 85% of the time. In my case I had a hairline like a woman up till about 15. Then it slowly became concave and stayed that way for many many years. Sometime between my late 20's and mid 30's it started to recede again and at the same time my crown started thinning out. So I lost a small amount of hair in my teens then nothing else until aprox. 20 years later. That amount of time is the difference. For some it could be a much shorter amount of time and for others much longer before you start to develop mpb.

I know we have talked about this before and I appreciate your thoughts, but I still think you are wrong.

There is a REASON why we lose our hair. Its the DHT . The rest is simply a matter of which hair falls out in what pattern and how long it takes.

In your case your temple hair died almost imediately due to dht , but the rest slowly fell out and you didnt notice the thickness decline.

By time you were in your thirties it finally was so thin as to be seen so you think it just started now?

If you are right, explain how the DHT stops and starts killing hair? How does that work?

[mpb47]

I know we have talked about this before and I appreciate your thoughts, but I still think you are wrong.

There is a REASON why we lose our hair. Its the DHT . The rest is simply a matter of which hair falls out in what pattern and how long it takes.

In your case your temple hair died almost imediately due to dht , but the rest slowly fell out and you didnt notice the thickness decline.

By time you were in your thirties it finally was so thin as to be seen so you think it just started now?

If you are right, explain how the DHT stops and starts killing hair? How does that work?

No debate that is is hormones in both cases. As to why it started and stopped, no one really knows for sure. I have read suggested theories that mpb genes have sort of a time clock that tellls when each of your hair follicles are to begin to miniaturize and that is also the reason you lose your hair in pattern rather than all at once.

As to your other question, I know I did not have hairline miniaturization (ie diffuse thining) until my late 20's or 30s. Before then, my hairline was changed for sure but the hair was thick and normal. Miniaturization is when some hair docs say mpb truly begins.