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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball D View Post
    Nah I mean 0.025 I got sides with .1mg dose, not everyone needs to inhibit their DHT by up to 70% which is what normal doses of fin inhibit so I am trying to find my own personal sweet spot where fin inhibits 20-30 percent of DHT and therefore I only have 20-30 percent of the sides. I feel that fin is necessary to win this hairloss fight but for me, not at such a strong dose.

    I got the idea for this here: http://www.hairlossbuddha.com/finast...o-reduce-them/

    In the comments of this the author of the article says he still had the same regrowth and sides as he did on the higher amounts as he did when he was taking 0.05 so I am going for an even lower dose than that to find an amount of fin that I can actually tolerate.

    The link explains how to separate the dosages at such small quantities. Basically you dissolve the fin in ethanol and all you have to know is the concentration.
    Dang, that's wild. Either way, let us know how that super low dose works for you.

    I've ordered the 5mg pills, so getting them cut any smaller than 0.625 (8ths) is going to nearly impossible I bet.

    That's why I've toyed with the idea of parachuting super low doses. A crushed 5 mg pill accurately measured at say 20ths is still 0.25 mg. If I take that EOD, I'm looking at like 40 days of super low dose fin tapering for like a dollar. Shit, now that I really think about it, my pill will probably expire before I even get to them.

  2. #12
    Senior Member mpb47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drybone View Post
    They dont. Its not like we have full heads of hair and then all of a sudden at age 40 our hair falls out.

    At age 18 to 20 we start pumping out so much testosterone that it combines into a hormone called DHT that starts to wreck our hair follicles. I still cannot wrap my head around how it falls out in a PATTERN that falls into all kinds of Norwood categories.

    It all depends on how resistant our hair is to DHT . Almost all of us have resistant hair on the sides and back. Again a total mystery as to why.

    Since we have like 40,000 hairs on the top of our head, or 30 or 20 I dont know the number, burning out follicles is not noticable.

    We burn out 1/2 of them before we even notice it in the mirror. In my case I was about 28 when i noticed it was not as thick as it was before. It takes 50% loss before we even notice.

    So by 35 or so, I was having to keep it a certain length, and style it a certain way . By 42 it now was becoming obvious in the front I was thinning.

    This is my guess as to why we only notice 'older' guys going bald. Fact is we were going bald the whole time.
    They don't as in hormones don't decline or that more men start going bald with age?

    I basically had nothing but a mature hairline till I was pushing 40 then starting getting the vertex spot in the back. Have a friend I have mentioned before that had near brad pitt hair and it starting going fast right age 40.

    But that is all subjective..read some journal articles and you will find the % of men affected increases with age. Articles I read years ago said it was linear with age...ie 50% had it by 50. But more recent studies suggest that at least at older ages, it increases...ie at 70 about 85%+ have it.

    If hormones decline with age, this doesn't make any sense -hence my question.

  3. #13
    Senior Member drybone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpb47 View Post
    They don't as in hormones don't decline or that more men start going bald with age?

    I basically had nothing but a mature hairline till I was pushing 40 then starting getting the vertex spot in the back. Have a friend I have mentioned before that had near brad pitt hair and it starting going fast right age 40.

    But that is all subjective..read some journal articles and you will find the % of men affected increases with age. Articles I read years ago said it was linear with age...ie 50% had it by 50. But more recent studies suggest that at least at older ages, it increases...ie at 70 about 85%+ have it.

    If hormones decline with age, this doesn't make any sense -hence my question.
    Can you show me the source where male pattern baldness , thus the DHT damage , doesnt START until you are 35 or 40 years old?

    I would appreciate if you could find the article(s) .

  4. #14
    Senior Member mpb47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drybone View Post
    Can you show me the source where male pattern baldness , thus the DHT damage , doesnt START until you are 35 or 40 years old?

    I would appreciate if you could find the article(s) .
    Sure here is one for starters:

    Male androgenetic alopecia -Rodney D. Sinclair ,MD
    JMHG Vol. 1, No. 4, pp. 319–327, December 2004


    well recognized as is racial variation in the
    prevalence of balding [1,2]. Genetic factors
    modify the magnitude of the hair follicle
    response to circulating androgens. Those with
    a strong predisposition bald in their teens, and
    those with a weak predisposition may not bald
    until they are in their 60s or 70s
    . Fewer than
    15% of men have little or no baldness by the
    age of 70
    "

    And I know you didn't ask, but he also talks about how mpb is considered a secondary trait:

    "Androgenetic alopecia, also known as com-
    mon baldness, hereditary baldness and andro-
    genic alopecia is the most common cause of
    hair loss in men. It is distinctive due to the
    pattern of progression of the scalp hair loss.
    Genetically predisposed men initially develop
    bitemporal recession. Next they develop dif-
    fuse frontal loss and thereafter a bald patch
    over the vertex of the scalp. Ultimately all the
    hair over the crown is lost. The pathogenesis
    involves androgen-induced miniaturisation of
    terminal hairs into vellus hairs in affected
    regions of the scalp. Some degree of follicular
    miniaturisation and consequential hair loss is
    universal and is considered to be a physiologi-
    cal secondary sexual characteristic.
    "

    This sounds like he is talking about the mature hairline and/or mpb
    And to add weight to that, here is what he says in another article:


    The transition of some terminal hairs into vellus
    hairs is a universal physiological secondary sexual
    characteristic.
    1 Androgenetic alopecia becomes a
    medical problem only when the hair loss is subjectively
    seen as excessive, premature, and distressing.
    The prerequisites for premature androgenetic alo*
    pecia are a genetic predisposition and sufficient circu*
    lating androgens. 2 Eunuchs do not go bald. 3 Every
    white man possesses the autosomal inherited predis*
    position, 4 and 96% lose hair to some degree, 5 but
    because of the variabity of gene expression far fewer
    have appreciable premature hair loss.
    "


    To me this says it can start early or late, but nearly all white males lose their hair at some point.

    That article was from BMJ VOLUME 317 26 SEPTEMBER 1998 www.bmj.com

    Dr. Sinclair publishes frequently. He was also one of the Docs that proved MPB doesn't stop and progresses over time. Mereck had to have this proof to make some of the claims they do. One of their ad's say something like: without treatment your mphl will most likely continue, and your bald spot will most likely continue to expand. Yes they had to do studies to say that, I guess because of the FDA. If you like this kind of information , read some of his articles.

  5. #15
    Senior Member drybone's Avatar
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    Ok. The article you put up doesnt say they START losing hair at age 40

    I have very SLOW MPS and I wont bald until I am 70 either. What you are thinking is that I dont have MPS , but I can tell you for a fact , you dont notice MPS until you have lost 50% of your density .

    There are a ton of guys who walk around looking the SAME for decades then one day they notice they are thinning out. That process started when they were 20.

    Male pattern baldness is a process of burning out your hair follicles , caused by testosterone.

    Show me an article where the doc says the DHT that causes MPS in men somehow is delayed until they are 35 or 40 ?????

    The articles you put up do not say that in the slightest.

  6. #16
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    You've run rampage on BallD's thread guys.

    BallD: I would be interested to see your before/after numbers for total T/free T, estrogen, FSH, LH to name a few.

    Sure merck reported that total T goes up after a single dose of fin, as you could expect T is bumped up to upregulate DHT after the reduction caused by fin. How much is estrogen upregulated to accomodate an increase in T (note: guys complaining of gyno), and is such an increase really long term? As a low T guy myself, I've seen a pattern of young guys on fin with low T. I don't know whether it is associative or causative. I don't understand why low T would cause balding in young guys.

    These seem to be the commonly speculated things. Low/no libido and feminisation complaints bring into question these hormones.

    Since taking fin, like many others I have a greatly reduced ejaculate, and tests a few months ago showed my FSH (responsible for producing sperm) to be very low - worrying if caused by fin, and especially so if it doesn't bump back up once fin is suspended.

  7. #17
    Senior Member drybone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unk View Post
    You've run rampage on BallD's thread guys.

    BallD: I would be interested to see your before/after numbers for total T/free T, estrogen, FSH, LH to name a few. Sure merck reported that total T goes up after a dose of fin. Is that long term, and estrogen would likely go up to compensate (hence complaints of gyno).

    These seem to be the commonly speculated things. Low/no libido and feminisation complaints bring into question these hormones.

    Since taking fin, like many others I have a greatly reduced ejaculate, and tests a few months ago showed my FSH (responsible for producing sperm) to be very low.
    I am sorry to read this. I havent noticed anything in the slightest.

  8. #18
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    i think the basic question that needs to be answered (is it always harmfull lowering your dht ?cause there is a new product called keratene that says it has no side effects yet it lowers dht ,the only difference is that it is not affecting testosterone)

  9. #19
    Senior Member mpb47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drybone View Post
    Ok. The article you put up doesnt say they START losing hair at age 40

    I have very SLOW MPS and I wont bald until I am 70 either. What you are thinking is that I dont have MPS , but I can tell you for a fact , you dont notice MPS until you have lost 50% of your density .

    There are a ton of guys who walk around looking the SAME for decades then one day they notice they are thinning out. That process started when they were 20.

    Male pattern baldness is a process of burning out your hair follicles , caused by testosterone.

    Show me an article where the doc says the DHT that causes MPS in men somehow is delayed until they are 35 or 40 ?????

    The articles you put up do not say that in the slightest.
    Actually it does:
    "may not bald
    until they are in their 60s or 70s"

    That is not 40 but well beyond that. And my family has very slow mpb too. My uncle had no meds but didnt horse-shoe til about 65. But that still doesn't mean some men have no loss at all and don't even start balding till later in life.

    You need to learn how to use pub med and you can see for yourself

    You should read this article as it is from Norwood himself:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1188424

    That's all I can say about it in this thread. Now again my ? is:


    I just don't understand why test declines with age, yet more and more men start balding

  10. #20
    Senior Member drybone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpb47 View Post
    Actually it does:
    "may not bald
    until they are in their 60s or 70s"

    That is not 40 but well beyond that. And my family has very slow mpb too. My uncle had no meds but didnt horse-shoe til about 65. But that still doesn't mean some men have no loss at all and don't even start balding till later in life.

    You need to learn how to use pub med and you can see for yourself

    You should read this article as it is from Norwood himself:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1188424

    That's all I can say about it in this thread. Now again my ? is:


    I just don't understand why test declines with age, yet more and more men start balding

    You can start losing hair at 20 and NEVER end up going bald.

    Stop asking questions that have been asked and answered just because you dont like the answer. Denying the answer wont change it no matter how you try to wish it away.

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