Donor Densities & Safe Zone

[didi]

not overharvesting/ harvesting too much is big part or most important part of HST

i asked hasci about 2500/3000 graft per session cases and they said those were very vary rare cases, happens once in a blue moon, 1200-1600 is the most common number of grafts patiens get, thats your average patient


Does it mean if you start with 1400 grafts per session that you will only be getting less and less for each subsequent visit, - 15% after each procedure...

unless you have 100% regneration then you can get 1400 again

[clarence]

Furthermore, harvesting outside the safety zone/permanent zone makes no sense with the HST technique anyhow, because they don't overharvest the donor area; just the usual 1500-2000 grafts per session, which is simply an important part for donor regeneration; because if you do far more than these numbers, its simply too risky for the healing characteristic. So extractions outside the permanent zone, makes no sense anyhow and is therefore not necessary.

THIS is why it makes sense. These two "patients", who got HST in 2013 for the corners of the hairline, have not bothered to go in for more procedures to "replace zombies". The difference is, the patient on the left must have another procedure to replace the zombies, or people will see there's been hands at work other than mother nature's. The patient on the right has more choice.

[534623]

The patient on the right has more choice.

Nice example!
But, seriously, which choices has the patient on the right?

The only choice he has is to transplant into the temple areas again - what is costly again and frustrating, as already explained. For example, in the early/mid 90s, they implanted in my case 3 times into the temple areas until they got something acceptable to grow at all in these areas - but this is another story.

The patient on the left - everything he has to do is to fill up the gap (forelock area) and to expand the zones 2-3 behind this area, to get at least an adequate looking front area again in the first step.

The patient on the right - even shaved down to zero - will always look like an idiot with some sparse (but still thick as in the donor area) looking hairs here and there. You can see them, even if you shave them down to zero.

So it's rather the question, where you want end up at all in your life - being a hairy man again or a normal bald guy?

If you choose option #1, in this case, there is no place for an "unfinished business" and you have to calculate all this IN ADVANCE and BEFORE having your 1st hair transplant at all. And concerning the costs all in all, it's of course more smart to implant hairs always just from the "safety zone" and in addition, you will not need any meds like Propecia in addition!

[534623]

i asked hasci about 2500/3000 graft per session cases and they said those were very vary rare cases, happens once in a blue moon, 1200-1600 is the most common number of grafts patiens get, thats your average patient


Does it mean if you start with 1400 grafts per session that you will only be getting less and less for each subsequent visit, - 15% after each procedure...

Normal hair transplant clinics harvest up to 50% (all in all) from the donor area.
For example:
An average patient has around 12,000-16,000 (+/-) follicular units in his donor area (safety zone). So with normal FUE, with 2 passes or so, and if everything goes well, they harvest up to 6,000-8,000 grafts from the donor area. BUT losing 50% of grafts in your donor area – this is HEFTY; especially later in combination with aging (aka “senescent alopecia”)!

With HST, in every pass, they harvest not more than around 10%. Around 15% maximum just in patients with excellent donor areas with high densities. Dr. Broekhuijse told me this in Amsterdam.

So usually, there is no reason to decrease the number (due to the not regenerated grafts) in the 2nd, 3rd etc pass, because the loss of around 15-20% is in comparison with the big whole number of grafts in your donor area is always very small. And there is another thing what, in addition, always compensates the loss of 15-20% per pass somewhat:


It’s the extraction of already harvested but regenerated grafts again!
For example,
in Gerard Joling’s case – they never decreased the number of grafts; not even in the 3rd pass!

[clarence]

The patient on the right - even shaved down to zero - will always look like an idiot with some sparse (but still thick as in the donor area) looking hairs here and there. You can see them, even if you shave them down to zero.

Finally, I understand the point, other than with scarring, behind the permanent zone, as I was always just thinking about the numbers of hairs, rather than considering, how each of these hairs will actually look. Thank you for explaining this.

[didi]

if hasci extacts only about 10% of grafts from safety zones it means chances of extracting the same follicle in 2nd pass are also about 10%, 1 in 10, hence very low chance


hasci extracts 6-8 grafts per cm2 of donor(safety zone)


how many grafts get extracted per cm2 by fue? 30-40?

[534623]

Finally, I understand the point, other than with scarring, behind the permanent zone, as I was always just thinking about the numbers of hairs, rather than considering, how each of these hairs will actually look. Thank you for explaining this.

Well, of course this happens:
when the doctor or the technicians implant grafts, of course, they do NOT look anymore whether or not this graft is rather a “zombie-graft" from outside the safety zone or not. They simply implant what they grasp from the Petri dish; so you will get a “mixed” result of still THICK permanent hairs and zombie-hairs, which may shrink after an uncertain period of time as soon as the hairs start to shrink and die in the donor area. For example …

Dr. Jerry Cooley reported recently –among lots of other things and cases- the following…

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=11259

Cooley tried to implant plucked hairs into the big gaps of the transition zone between transplanted hairs and the “permanent zone”.
What happened? What caused the big gaps??

All these 3 patients had hair transplants when they were younger – also into the tonsure/crown areas. After years, the size of the tonsure/crown area (aka previously thought “permanent zone”) INCREASED dramatically!
So if a young patient gets FUE’s implanted into his recipients sites from these areas as well, of course, the patient will lose these hairs as well in the recipient site!

Anyway, now look at these 3 old hair transplant candidates and their new "permanent area" sizes, and then look at the photo I posted today in this thread from the Dutch-guy who got 3000 FUE's recently extracted and implanted…

[534623]

if hasci extacts only about 10% of grafts from safety zones it means chances of extracting the same follicle in 2nd pass are also about 10%, 1 in 10, hence very low chance


hasci extracts 6-8 grafts per cm2 of donor(safety zone)


how many grafts get extracted per cm2 by fue? 30-40?

hmmm, simply try to compare gc’s donor area photos (1600 grafts) …

http://www.fileden.com/files/2011/9/28/3202143/DSCN1531.JPG

… with the photo I posted today from the Dutch guy with the 3000 extractions:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19299&stc=1&d=1360572141

[elgorvanelsinki]

i'm sorry 534623, can i ask you a question? was the first picture of gc's donor area after 1600 grafts made after the first treatment or the second?