Donor Densities & Safe Zone

[JJJJrS]

JJJrs
it will only prove that donor regenerates fully, but

We still need to prove that extracted 3 hair graft will regenerate in donor as 3 and will grow in recipient as 3,
beyond reasonable doubt,


you are assuming if extraced follicle completly regenerates in donor area that same folicle will fully grow in bald area, it could be that just one part grows for whatever reason even though it completly regenerated ,gho dnt extracts whole FU like fue..


people are reporting thin results so im just thinking about all possibilities which could explain why

You're right, but what gc's pictures will prove, without any doubt in my mind at least, is whether the graft splitting theory has any merit and whether hair multiplication is occurring.

To get the proof you're after would probably require something like a 50-100 graft procedure. Mark both small areas in the donor and recipient and count the hairs. From their last interview, both Spencer Kobren and Dr. Gho seemed very positive about Spencer visiting the clinic over the summer. I will try my best to ask Spencer to organize and document a 50-100 graft procedure. That would be the final conclusive proof we need.


Generally, I try to look at HST from a bigger perspective. Right now, there's still some flaws (i.e., the amount of time and money required for a full restoration for those at an advanced stage of hair loss, possible artistic considerations and the density of recipient results) but there's no doubt in my mind that this is the most promising hair loss treatment right now. We're very close to getting conclusive proof of hair multiplication for the first time ever which is amazing! I definitely believe the technology can only improve in the following years and some of the flaws I just listed will be significantly minimized.

At the moment, my focus is on getting as much evidence as possible. I want us to get to the point where we can all discuss HST in the same way we do FUT and FUE. Of course, I would also like to hear from as many patients as possible and see as many photos of the recipient area results as we can.

The end goal should be to get HST standardized across the entire industry. With the scarring and limited donor supply, traditional hair transplants are simply a dead-end for a lot of people. With HST, the amount of butchered patients will be massively diminished and the more surgeons working on and with HST, the more innovations we'll see.

[didi]

'I will try my best to ask Spencer to organize and document a 50-100 graft procedure. That would be the final conclusive proof we need.'

Thats exactly what we need and it will only cost about $700, use your credibility to influence Spencer, he is kind of guy you need to push to get things done

its really simple, cheap process and it will be final proof

[gc83uk]

That's nice, but seriously - WTF has that got to do in a "Donor Densities & Safe Zone" discussion topic?

This thread just deals with "Donor Densities & Safe Zone" topics - but NO, now we have another "I don't know what is what and whether or not Dr. Gho's technique works" mix thread.

It has absolutely nothing to do with it, just cba creating a new thread. Is that ok your majesty?

[didi]

GC

How did you go with HSi, how many grafts

any news, rumors

[didi]

534623

you need to calm down a bit, you are overreacting again

[JJJJrS]

To keep things on topic, which never seems to happen on this forum , I'm going to continue the discussion from gc's thread on here.

By the way ...

I'm also almost 100% sure, that around 7 years ago, in the very early beginnings of the HST technique - they tried this indeed and also with not "bigger heads" and extracted -in addition- too dense.
Guess what happend - or in other words, guess why they are so carefully today with high extraction numbers.

When HST first came out, the amount of grafts HASCI transplanted on average was much lower than it is today. A common procedure back then was something like 500-800 grafts while today we regularly see procedures of 1200-1500 grafts. What changed? Obviously people's donor safe areas didn't get larger. So it's clear we've already witnessed a substantial increase in the number of grafts HASCI is comfortable dealing with.

I've seen multiple photos of patients where HASCI extracted beyond the safe zone area (see c5000 or neversaynever's photos). We have also seen in gc's photos multiple grafts which are extracted right next to each other, which regenerated just fine. We can look at the gc example again. Originally they only extracted 700 grafts but now they plan to extract over 1600+ grafts in a session. GC, btw, has a limited, below-average donor supply.

My personal opinion is that HASCI will continue to increase the grafts per sessions as their technology and comfort level increase. I see no reason why 2000-3000 can't become a standard procedure in the near future. Right now, 1500 grafts is a little bit impractical considering the amount of sessions that would require to fully restore a person at an advanced stage of hair loss. If they can increase that to 2500 grafts then you will see dramatically more full restorations.

What do you think IM?

[c5000]

To keep things on topic, which never seems to happen on this forum , I'm going to continue the discussion from gc's thread on here.



When HST first came out, the amount of grafts HASCI transplanted on average was much lower than it is today. A common procedure back then was something like 500-800 grafts while today we regularly see procedures of 1200-1500 grafts. What changed? Obviously people's donor safe areas didn't get larger. So it's clear we've already witnessed a substantial increase in the number of grafts HASCI is comfortable dealing with.

I've seen multiple photos of patients where HASCI extracted beyond the safe zone area (see c5000 or neversaynever's photos). We have also seen in gc's photos multiple grafts which are extracted right next to each other, which regenerated just fine. We can look at the gc example again. Originally they only extracted 700 grafts but now they plan to extract over 1600+ grafts in a session. GC, btw, has a limited, below-average donor supply.

My personal opinion is that HASCI will continue to increase the grafts per sessions as their technology and comfort level increase. I see no reason why 2000-3000 can't become a standard procedure in the near future. Right now, 1500 grafts is a little bit impractical considering the amount of sessions that would require to fully restore a person at an advanced stage of hair loss. If they can increase that to 2500 grafts then you will see dramatically more full restorations.

What do you think IM?

Yeah, I have to say this did concern me a little bit, but someone on this forum (I forget who), suggested that it was because the hair outside of the "safe" donor area looked strong and healthy. Is this likely to be the case?

[534623]

To keep things on topic ...
[...]
I've seen multiple photos of patients where HASCI extracted beyond the safe zone area (see c5000 or neversaynever's photos).

c5000?
They extracted his grafts outside the safe zone??
Are you sure?

Here are all his other donor area photos at a glance:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=93104&postcount=9

neversaynever?
He NEVER EVER posted more than 2 small donor pics – here they are:



Everything neversaynever added to these pics was “Two different areas of donor @ day 1” - that's all.

So, as for both cases,
how do you conclude that “HASCI extracted beyond the safe zone area (see c5000 or neversaynever's photos)” ??

So far, I’m just aware about 1 user (sorry, I forgot his username and where he posted the pic), where they indeed extracted somewhat higher in this case – but just in the area above the ears. And as c5000 said in his previous post “because the hair outside of the "safe" donor area looked strong and healthy” – what in my opinion could be even though a mistake in 10-20 years, especially, if the patient is still very young.
And as far as I remember, the guy mentioned "...just to get the (already paid) number of grafts" - what in my opinion is absolutely NOT o.k.

[534623]

So far, I’m just aware about 1 user (sorry, I forgot his username and where he posted the pic), where they indeed extracted somewhat higher in this case – but just in the area above the ears. And as c5000 said in his previous post “because the hair outside of the "safe" donor area looked strong and healthy” – what in my opinion could be even though a mistake in 10-20 years, especially, if the patient is still very young.
And as far as I remember, the guy mentioned "...just to get the (already paid) number of grafts" - what in my opinion is absolutely NOT o.k.

Sounds like I’m pissed? Am I?

Let’s say – I AM pissed – at least a little bit …

IronMan BEFORE HST extractions (07:41 a.m. after “shaving” my really wonderful shaped head in the clinic):

Full Size: http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/...xtractions.jpg
Below - IronMan 1 day AFTER HST extractions (photo taken in the hotel room):

The extraction part started at 08:00 a.m. and ended at 11:15 a.m. to get 1400 grafts (the girl, who extracted my grafts, did a really GREAT job!).

So, that’s around 3 hours to get 1400 grafts – at least in MY case!
Just with 1 additional hour, and we had plenty TIME left (!), to get with ease at least around 500 additional grafts from the area above the “safe zone” towards the tonsure/vertex area – but - “NO!”

So why “NO!” ?? - that’s what I always could hear, when I tried to get more grafts …

Sorry guys, I really can’t give you a proper answer. I don’t know.
At least, now I know what “check-up treatment” means? That’s what they name every 1st HST treatment for a new patient. Maybe to “check-up” a patients’ healing characteristic (due to scars in the donor area or whatever)? I really don’t know.

Anyway, if you can see the same in the photos above what I can see, in this case, my 1400 grafts are, in fact, A JOKE! At least in MY case, because I’m in my early 40s …

[clarence]

((OT - a number of hairless spots with whiter skin caught my attention here, 534623, but I suppose those are from a FUE or something other than any HST you might have had done earlier))

[534623]

((OT - a number of hairless spots with whiter skin caught my attention here, 534623, but I suppose those are from a FUE or something other than any HST you might have had done earlier))

No. Most of these "hairless spots" you can see are just cuts due to ... lets say ... "cats" with very long and sharp nails and happend when ... you know ... they completely lose it ...

If these "hairless spots" you CAN see would be due to traditional FUE ...

... my donor area would rather look like that. That's THE reason why I "skipped" normal FUE procedures in the 2000s in general, after having some small FUT procedures in the 90s. The singer Gerard Joling did the same, because doing this, wouldn't make sense at all.

[clarence]

Awesome

Makes one wonder why the hell we ever needed FUE, anyway

[JJJJrS]

Sounds like I’m pissed? Am I?

Let’s say – I AM pissed – at least a little bit …

IronMan BEFORE HST extractions (07:41 a.m. after “shaving” my really wonderful shaped head in the clinic):

Full Size: http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/...xtractions.jpg
Below - IronMan 1 day AFTER HST extractions (photo taken in the hotel room):

The extraction part started at 08:00 a.m. and ended at 11:15 a.m. to get 1400 grafts (the girl, who extracted my grafts, did a really GREAT job!).

So, that’s around 3 hours to get 1400 grafts – at least in MY case!
Just with 1 additional hour, and we had plenty TIME left (!), to get with ease at least around 500 additional grafts from the area above the “safe zone” towards the tonsure/vertex area – but - “NO!”

So why “NO!” ?? - that’s what I always could hear, when I tried to get more grafts …

Sorry guys, I really can’t give you a proper answer. I don’t know.
At least, now I know what “check-up treatment” means? That’s what they name every 1st HST treatment for a new patient. Maybe to “check-up” a patients’ healing characteristic (due to scars in the donor area or whatever)? I really don’t know.

Anyway, if you can see the same in the photos above what I can see, in this case, my 1400 grafts are, in fact, A JOKE! At least in MY case, because I’m in my early 40s …

I'll go back to the gc case because I think it's interesting but gc has a below average donor supply and has already gone through 2 HST procedures. Even aggressive strip surgeons could only promise him 2500 grafts. Despite this, HASCI was able to extract 1600 grafts from his donor in a two-day session. That's more than double the amount from his first two procedures.

So the question is, why didn't they extract that much during the first two procedures? If they did, gc would already have 4800 grafts and be well on his way to a full restoration. I think you're correct with your assessment that they use the first procedure to evaluate your healing characteristics. But in my opinion, they should have reached that conclusion after the very first procedure rather than two for gc.

HASCI deserves credit for approaching hair transplantation responsibly and not putting their patients in risk. But we're not talking about megasessions here. Something like 2000-3000 grafts/session is a reasonable procedure and in my opinion, I can't think of a reason why they shouldn't be able to extract that much for a regular patient.

In your case, you're already at a point where your hairloss has somewhat stabilized. I've examined your donor pictures and there certainly looks like there's room for 600 more grafts to give you a 2000+ procedure without compromising your healing. In that case, I think it's worth it for them to be a little bit more aggressive. Given that you seem to have healed very well, maybe they will increase the amount if and when you decide to have your next procedure.

[didi]

hasci

"At this moment, we do average about 1200-1400 grafts per treatment and occasionally, we can increase it to 1600, 1800 and even 2000 grafts. There are many factors influence the smoothness/speed of the harvesting of the grafts, the hair follicle unit itself and the type of skin – hard or soft (which we can’t influence)."

[534623]

hasci

"At this moment, we do average about 1200-1400 grafts per treatment and occasionally, we can increase it to 1600, 1800 and even 2000 grafts. There are many factors influence the smoothness/speed of the harvesting of the grafts, the hair follicle unit itself and the type of skin – hard or soft (which we can’t influence)."

That's correct - but from where did you get this info??

I mean, of course from "hasci" - and not by Dr. Rassman.