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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 25 going on 65 View Post
    I agree there is no time limit for how long the medications work. But from what I have seen, 100% maintenance for males (in the hairline particularly) is the exception after 10-15 years and not the norm
    WarLord has referred to the 10 year Rossi study showing most men retaining their hair, but the study assessed the patients by having 3 experts evaluate color photographs. Had they taken hair counts in the hairline/temples, I suspect most of the men would have lost at least minor ground there, which is the typical anecdote from long term users (maintenance in most areas of the scalp, with slow loss in the hairline).
    The full study only shows a handful of the photographs, and I have not seen another 10+ year study to compare it to, so I guess it is hard to know. I would be very interested to see the full set of photos but I doubt they will ever be made public?
    From what you have seen? Where? Here in the internet forum? This forum is full of hypochondriac defeatists, who spread unsubstantied claims and assure each other that all medications will work for only a handful of years. In the meantime, the medications keep working in the vast majority of men, who have no reason to go here and whine about the alleged loss of efficiacy. If you believe that you will lose your hair soon despite anti-hairloss treatments, then you really deserve this fate! I wish it to you wholeheartedly!

    Besides that, you are a typical visitor of this forum by all parameters: Waiting idly until NW4, and then looking for help. That's too late, lad, and that's your own fault.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy C View Post
    His comments do indicate that he does not actually have MPB but instead just the natural and normal adult mature male hair line. Some males can prevent the adult male hair line from developing - but most males can not prevent it.

    However, his argument concerning the fictitious time limit on the effectiveness of treatments is still a valid one. I know males who actually do have MPB but maintained their hair for over 15+ years. Females with FPB can be expected to maintain for even longer.

    That is correct. Minoxidil does not stop MPB or FPB. It just fights against the effects of androgenetic alopecia. Finasteride (for males) and Spironolactone (for females) actually stops androgenetic alopecia.
    I DO have MPB. It started, when I was 22 years old (1996). My doctor told me that I would be losing hair despite anti-hairloss treatments. I didn't. Actually, I have preserved my hair exactly in the state, when I started. The only exception was a short experiment with herbal extracts in 1998 - and you should see, how quickly my hair started to disappear!

    It really doesn't seem anyhow exceptional to me. The point is that you must treat it early and be disciplined.

    Now I am paradoxically in the worst state ever, due to an unhappy experiment with 15% minoxidil - and that's the reason, why I am here. If I hadn't done this experiment and if I hadn't lost a lot of hair in my left temple, I wouldn't have gone here and you wouldn't have known my story. You still would have assured each other that minoxidil can't stop hair loss for a long time and holding off MPB for 15+ years is impossible, because other visitors of this forum say it is so.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 25 going on 65 View Post
    I agree there is no time limit for how long the medications work. But from what I have seen, 100% maintenance for males (in the hairline particularly) is the exception after 10-15 years and not the norm
    WarLord has referred to the 10 year Rossi study showing most men retaining their hair, but the study assessed the patients by having 3 experts evaluate color photographs. Had they taken hair counts in the hairline/temples, I suspect most of the men would have lost at least minor ground there, which is the typical anecdote from long term users (maintenance in most areas of the scalp, with slow loss in the hairline).
    The full study only shows a handful of the photographs, and I have not seen another 10+ year study to compare it to, so I guess it is hard to know. I would be very interested to see the full set of photos but I doubt they will ever be made public?
    And as for the other parts of your personal propaganda: The table 6 in Rossi et al. clearly shows that 71 patients (63%) persisted in their improvements achieved during the 1st year, or improved even further. How could they get worse, if they visibly kept their improvements? Or do you want to make a study based on anecdotal posts on this forum? Well, then you would find out that 50% minoxidil users get swollen eyes and bloated face and 50% finasteride users lose more hair than they gain. Good luck!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarLord View Post
    It really doesn't seem anyhow exceptional to me. The point is that you must treat it early and be disciplined.
    Agreed.

    Many forum members will continue to believe current treatments will only work for a few years now matter what you try to tell them.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy C View Post
    Agreed.

    Many forum members will continue to believe current treatments will only work for a few years now matter what you try to tell them.
    "Many forum members" idly waited until they were NW4. Now they expect miracles and if they don't happen, they lurk about internet forums, whining that stopping MPB is impossible.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarLord View Post
    "Many forum members" idly waited until they were NW4. Now they expect miracles and if they don't happen, they lurk about internet forums, whining that stopping MPB is impossible.
    Tracy and Warlord, could you look at my album that I made. I just wanted to get your thoughts on what NW you think I am. I know, it can be irrelevant at times, but just want to know for my own personal reasons.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarLord View Post
    MINOXIDIL STOPS MPB!!! Are you crazy?! If it regrows hair, it means that it has the capacity to preserve existing hair. You are completely brainwashed by posts of some internet morons, who theirselves haven't used this stuff.

    The long-term studies from late 80's that are at disposal quite clearly show that a large proportion of patients was regrowing hair on 3% (!) minoxidil even after 4-5 years. And even if you extrapolated the declining curves of average hair counts to the future, it would take about 15 years, until the people reached baseline. And I repeat that this was 3% minoxidil!
    Minoxidil forces hair to grow from follicles it otherwise would not, and also causes hair to grow thicker than it normally would. The reason these hairs do not grow, or do not grow as thickly, without minoxidil is due to follicular miniaturization from DHT exposure. DHT exposure causes MPB and minoxidil does not stop this process. You can maintain a higher hair count than you would have otherwise, but you cannot maintain the same absolute hair count for 15 years on minoxidil alone IF you have MPB.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarLord View Post
    Besides that, you are a typical visitor of this forum by all parameters: Waiting idly until NW4, and then looking for help. That's too late, lad, and that's your own fault.
    I am NW2.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarLord View Post
    And as for the other parts of your personal propaganda: The table 6 in Rossi et al. clearly shows that 71 patients (63%) persisted in their improvements achieved during the 1st year, or improved even further.
    The methodology was 3 individuals assessing color photographs of the patients, and the study does not display the photos (except a select few). I am confident finasteride can maintain hair counts on the crown and anterior mid scalp for 10 years. I am not confident that it can maintain temple and hairline hair counts for 10 years "in most men" because the only evidence for this is in the Rossi study, which did not obtain hair counts at all (instead we have 3 people saying it "looked maintained" based on photographs), has never had its results reproduced elsewhere, did not show its photos for anyone else to assess, and is not backed up by any anecdote (if you know of one I look forward to seeing it....we have many showing the opposite, including by people who have a very positive view of fin)
    Studies showing eg maintained crown hair are numerous, used large samples with control groups, took actual hair counts, and are backed by countless anecdotes.
    Is it possible that most men can maintain hair in all scalp regions for 10+ years on fin? Maybe. but I am not convinced at this time. I hope you now understand why and do not feel angered by that.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarLord View Post
    "Many forum members" idly waited until they were NW4. Now they expect miracles and if they don't happen, they lurk about internet forums, whining that stopping MPB is impossible.
    well I started when I was NW1, more than 5 years after my dermatologist thinks I am still NW1 but in my opinion it is more like a NW1,5 going into NW2. He also said that there is minor miniaturization on top of my scalp where Fin should work the most but it may not be something to worry. I accept the fact that treatments work very well, who knows what NW I would be now without them? but I just want them to be a little more effective. I maintained a good amount but I wish I could have maintained it all.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 25 going on 65 View Post
    Minoxidil forces hair to grow from follicles it otherwise would not, and also causes hair to grow thicker than it normally would. The reason these hairs do not grow, or do not grow as thickly, without minoxidil is due to follicular miniaturization from DHT exposure. DHT exposure causes MPB and minoxidil does not stop this process. You can maintain a higher hair count than you would have otherwise, but you cannot maintain the same absolute hair count for 15 years on minoxidil alone IF you have MPB.
    LOL Really? "You cannot maintain"? I did. And there are plenty of people, who are still above baseline after the same amount of time. And who actually said this? Bryan the Baldy? The man, who is picking up graphs from some studies, without even reading them?

    These claims are completely fabricated. You have nothing to support this. An anti-hairloss treatment doesn't have to address DHT to be effective. And if you don't believe in the power of anti-hairloss treatments, what is actually your business here? What the hell do you pursue by spreading such a misinformation? This forum is supposed to help people suffering from hairloss, not to infect them by garbage coming from some individuals, who haven't had enough experience with the treatments yet and rely on some silly internet legends.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by konfusion View Post
    well I started when I was NW1, more than 5 years after my dermatologist thinks I am still NW1 but in my opinion it is more like a NW1,5 going into NW2. He also said that there is minor miniaturization on top of my scalp where Fin should work the most but it may not be something to worry. I accept the fact that treatments work very well, who knows what NW I would be now without them? but I just want them to be a little more effective. I maintained a good amount but I wish I could have maintained it all.
    If you feel that it is not as effective as it should be, then you should add something to your regimen.

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