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  1. #1
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    Default Inconclusive rant about finasteride, DHT reduction and ways to control it.

    I have taken my first dose of finasteride the last friday. I took 0.3mg at night. The second dose, again of about 0.3mg, i took the next monday. By considering taking a third dose thursday I have noticed the following:

    My light, yet constant acne disappeared instantly, as did my excess sebum. Before finasteride i would wash my face with plain water every 12 hours and every time i could feel my scalp and areas of my face oily to the touch before washing. After taking finasteride my skin has been dry and spotless even without washing.

    At the same time my sleep has been ruined. Since the next day from the first dose even if i sleep properly all night, for 8-9 hours, i wake up with a bad feeling in my head and get assaulted by waves of sleepiness during the whole day, a pretty crippling condition. Apparently this is caused by inhibition of certain corticosteroids produced by the enzyme finasteride blocks. It seems it's interfering with my REM phases. Wednesday night has been much better, albeit a little of the bad effect remains. Has this happened to others? If so, has it gone away with prolonged usage?

    I won't be taking another dose of finasteride for at least a week since the last one, since not even my hair, which currently surpasses my navel in length and thus covers my NW2, is worth feeling horrible all day.

    My regimen idea was taken from this thread: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1170

    Since my excess sebum and hairloss at a young age (23) are clearly proof of excess DHT, which i presumably don't need, i would like to "trim" it just enough to have at the very least normal sebum levels, if not my hair.

    According to the graphic on that thread a dose of 0.3 mg every third-fourth day or sixth day should keep my plasma DHT reduction at around 20% from the starting point... unfortunately this isn't supported by other research, from which i quote:

    "Scalp skin DHT levels declined significantly by 13.0% with placebo and by 14.9%, 61.6%, 56. 5%, 64.1%, and 69.4% with 0.01, 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg doses of finasteride, respectively. Serum DHT levels declined significantly (P <.001) by 49.5%, 68.6%, 71.4%, and 72.2% in the 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg finasteride treatment groups, respectively."

    We can see how this last research notes a fairly flat response curve even for doses as small as 0.01mg. I have found confirmation of this last data set from the finasteride FDA testing. It clearly contradicts the previous graph. If this is true we have practically no way to "control" the amount of DHT we reduce, just the time this reduction is effective for (if even that). From this simple point i believe many of the side effects could be prevented by a more contained DHT reduction finasteride clearly can't provide, but which could benefit a wider range of users and prevent the formation of side effects.

    The golden point for finasteride seems instead to be the 0.05mg mark. Something obtainable only through dissolution of pills in ethanol, i believe. If the first graph has any validity then a dose close to 0.05 (0.04) would exhaust its efficacy after around 6 days compared to the higher lasting effect of higher doses. Since DHT accumulates around follicles over time, it wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing. Consider that despite the short time finasteride remains in the blood (a few hours) the inhibiting effect it exhibits lasts up to a week and more. Regardless of the graph's validity this can easily be confirmed through user experience. It means byproducts of the drug remain in the blood for that time, increasing their concentration in the blood with every dose (the previous doses' byproducts summed with the newly ingested ones). As far as i know the human endocrine system doesn't need a week to crank out appropriate quantities of a needed hormone, therefore if 1mg of the drug can remain in the bloostream for a week, then at the end of the first week your bloodstream will contain finasteride byproducts from 7 doses and remain constant at such level from then on.

    The point of my argument is that dht blocking could indeed be a simple solution to hair loss and a few other excess DHT-induced issues like acne, if only we had a medication that allowed us to actually control DHT levels instead of bringing them down by almost 70% regardless of dosage administered. After all, many cases of MPB in young sufferers seem to me to derive from a relatively modest excess of DHT and not early follicular hypersensitivity to it.
    In few words, we may actually benefit from a less potent inhibitor.

    To this regard these studies are fairly popular: http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/7/1109.full
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683253/

    The simple conclusion is that elevated quantities of certain components of tea (mostly black tea apparently) have a fairly high DHT reduction effect, comparable with finasteride. If this is true, perhaps regulating the amount of black tea extract ingested could help us achieve better control with our DHT reduction and make this treatment method more effective... albeit such a solution seems too good to be true.

    Other DHT blockers, such as saw palmetto, seem to show quite contradictory results in tests and are more likely to be just marketed "fads", in my opinion.

    I hope someone experienced with DHT blocking in general can provide some input about the topic, especially if i am misled by my assumptions.

    TL;DR:
    -Finasteride inhibits overall DHT by a fairly "set" value: ~60-70%
    -MPB in young men seems often (mostly?) caused by excess DHT (when coupled with acne, for instance)
    -Young men could benefit from a more modest DHT inhibition compared to finasteride.
    -Black tea extract or other DHT inhibitors could offer a healthier and more manageable DHT reduction, to bring DHT to "normal levels" in young men, thus producing less side effects and risks of endocrine system crash.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aston View Post
    After all, many cases of MPB in young sufferers seem to me to derive from a relatively modest excess of DHT and not early follicular hypersensitivity to it.
    In few words, we may actually benefit from a less potent inhibitor.
    Hi Aston, looks like you've done your homework and I applaud that.

    Just to pick up on one point that I've highlighted in my quote, regarding young MPB sufferers with relatively modest excess DHT. I have my own theory relating to side effects that might tie in here. I noticed that most of the studies investigating the safety of Propecia did not include men with hair loss confined to the hair line.

    Do you think it's possible that men with relatively modest excess DHT (and therefore modest hair loss) may be more susceptible to side effects as a consequence of taking Propecia? This idea has been pretty much dismissed as "weak" on this forum, but it seems quite plausible to me and would explain the disparity between the number of men coming forward with side effects and the figures quoted from the studies.

    Thanks for your research and keep it up.

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    Further question, I don't suppose you have any ideas or theories on how to "fix" people who have suffered from side effects? So far I'm just waiting it out (3 months on), but I guess I'm gonna have to get some tests done if things don't improve soon.

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    Black tea is no good for MPB. If it was, barely anyone in England would be balding.

  5. #5
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    This is all very interesting to me. I'm not on Finasteride currently but likely will be in the future. I was initially planning to take small doses after reading they reduce DHT levels almost as much as 1mg+. I realised however that due to the drugs short half-life after 24 hours I would not have enough of the drug in my body for it to reduce enough DHT. (?)

    I then decided on the plausible transition theory even though I feel that maybe you should not really go on Fin if you're fearing or expecting sides. From what I understand now though 1mg every 5-7 days would have an equal effect in combating MPB as 1mg ED? How is this information not more "out there"? Surely some people must have tried this and we'd know whether or not it's as effective.

  6. #6
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    I also have a vested interest in all things concerning the correlation between DHT, sebum/acne and MPB. I'm going to consult a dermatologist regarding these matters soon, hopefully he'll have some knowledge about these things.

    I doubt it's the actual sebum which causes the hair loss which some people seem to claim but rather the excess or sensitivity to DHT that causes both the overproduction of sebum and the hair loss.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaldinLikeBaldwin View Post
    I feel that maybe you should not really go on Fin if you're fearing or expecting sides. From what I understand now though 1mg every 5-7 days would have an equal effect in combating MPB as 1mg ED? How is this information not more "out there"? Surely some people must have tried this and we'd know whether or not it's as effective.
    I'd like to debunk this one. Although people think I'm now very anti-Propecia, all I've actually done is describe my experiences on the drug. If that makes me anti-Propecia, so be it. However, I didn't start taking the drug fearing or expecting side effects; they just happened. Before taking it I thought the risks were negligible and worth it anyway. I was pretty positive until I noticed serious problems associated with my libido. To be honest I think I was even in denial for quite some time (such was my attitude taking it!), until one day I realised I wasn't the same person anymore and quit cold turkey.

    I think it's reassuring for many to say that people bring the side effects upon themselves somehow and it's "all in their heads", but it's far from reality in my experience.

    Quite simply, side effects are a consequence of taking a drug that alters the hormones in your body and they are persistent if you're particularly unlucky. I'm sure many people read this and think "blah blah blah, I was fine so this is bs", but everyone is different and you really have to be open minded about this.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisis View Post
    I'd like to debunk this one. Although people think I'm now very anti-Propecia, all I've actually done is describe my experiences on the drug. If that makes me anti-Propecia, so be it. However, I didn't start taking the drug fearing or expecting side effects; they just happened. Before taking it I thought the risks were negligible and worth it anyway. I was pretty positive until I noticed serious problems associated with my libido. To be honest I think I was even in denial for quite some time (such was my attitude taking it!), until one day I realised I wasn't the same person anymore and quit cold turkey.

    I think it's reassuring for many to say that people bring the side effects upon themselves somehow and it's "all in their heads", but it's far from reality in my experience.

    Quite simply, side effects are a consequence of taking a drug that alters the hormones in your body and they are persistent if you're particularly unlucky. I'm sure many people read this and think "blah blah blah, I was fine so this is bs", but everyone is different and you really have to be open minded about this.
    Fair play but I hope my post didn't come across as me believing that side effects will only occur if you believe they will, I know you can have them regardless.

    What I meant was I don't think any good can come from expecting side effects, i.e. the nocebo effect. Obviously it's necessary to know they may occur and if they do as you mentioned not be in denial of them.

  9. #9
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    ive been bumping samjone's post on how he solved his side effects post for a long time, why dont you try it? Here it is again

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15913872

    Use the link above and see for yourself. Claritan (Loratadine) has been clinically determined to solve erectile dysfunction in men. I suffered from sexual dysfunction for many years after discontinuing propecia and stumbled upon this by accident. I tried Claritan for an allergy and the next day I noticed that I had regained full erectile function. Try it please and never give up hope.

  10. #10
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    Take some Claritan chrisis and come back and thank samjone for his discovery, i'm actually reading up on some studies. weird thing is, his 'healing' was the next day, no waiting time. And probably not placebo cause he didnt even expect it from what i undestand. If you try it and your johnson's fully revived then you would have proved samjone's post and 'propecia help' will be no more. i sound optimistic, but why the hell wouldnt i?!

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