2015 outlook.

[It's2014ComeOnAlready]

Everyone is obsessed with masculinity. It's not even about that. It's about brain health. 5ar is necessary for neurotransmitter interactions that basically make you happy and not anxious. Fin is not going to make you a woman. But it might make you unable to enjoy sex and feel depressed for the rest of your life. And there are many doctors and scientists that concur with a very strong possibility of permanent damage.

First you say to chill out about fin and then you say that you feel like a different person off of it. This just proves that people care more about their hair than their own mental and physical health. It's not about being an alpha male or any of that bodybuilder nonsense. It's about not ****ing up your hormonal system which controls things you don't even know about. dHt and 5ar are used for many things in the body, and it's no surprise that to a of people are very hurt by this drug. It's not really a gamble. You might not suffer too much or maybe not at all in the short term, but you are still slowly poisoning your body.

If you can't understand that then Godspeed and good luck, it's not that complicated. Prob wouldn't kill you to use it for a couple years as a bridge but honestly we should have CB and pgd2 blockers to buy soon which should be just as good. Even RU is potentially more safe as it does not affect 5ar

The sides suck, but they aren't having a cumulative effect if you are healthy. If you have a predisposition such as low testosterone, diabetes, or hypertension, you could get long term sides.

I'm perfectly healthy, have been taking fin for about 20 months as a bridging option and have had short term sides throughout. I've recently stopped taking it for the past 3-4 days, and feel much better all around. I'm going to reintroduce it slowly, and let my body adjust.

Most docs believe fin is a good, safe drug. It's not for everyone though.

[KO1]

"He doesn't have any serious data"

..that's the whole point I'm making. It's the things that science can not measure that is most disconcerting.

I don't have valid answers, but I do have a valid questions. Is it just possible that DHT is doing things to your brain over time that naturally lead to the full expression of masculine psychology?
Moreover, is it possible that you would not perceive it happening over time?

As sdsurfin originally put it, "slow feminisation".
We are not talking about normal side affects, we are talking about something you couldn't possibly detect that is still happening anyway. Do smokers feel the side affects of the plaque in their arteries? Can you feel a cancer growing internally? Just because you don't percieve it doesn't mean it's not there.

You are just making stuff up. So since we can't measure it, find it, or detect it, we don't even know what it is, but we should be afraid of it?

Now that's not to say that I rule out the possibility of serious sides 30 years down the line. But it is the only thing we have that treats this condition, and it's tested to be safe in the vast majority of people. We can't do any better than that. That will be the case for ANY lifelong medication, not just fin.

[EXprettyboy]

I have not made anything up. Science is about making observations, forming hypothesises, testing those hypothesises, and then forming principles based on the results of that experimentation.

However, we are limited to primitive numerical measurements of arbitrary variables for the most part and so can only make rudimentary conclusions based on precedent. The usefulness of clinical data is limited when we try to measure things like 'anxiety'.
How could we compare what an individual would be like had they not have taken the drug for a decade.
Now I AM going to make something up, just to communicate what I mean. Let's say we could compare identical twins, of similar disposition, with one having taken the drug for a decade and the other abstaining.
My hypothesis is that they would both be healthy and normal human beings with nothing wrong with them, but the guy who took the drug will obviously not have had as much 5ar or DHT chemically interacting with his brain tissue.
The question is, how does that affect his mental expression as a male human being. How does it influence his personality? It is a well known fact that the hormonal differences between men and women dramatically affect brain functioning. So what happens when we reduce one of the most potent male androgens there is, in a particular individual for a decade?

Hair, erections, and brain fog aside, something fundamental will be altered in that individual. He may be healthy, I don't want to be insensitive, but he may also have made a compromise on that which solidifies male brain function.


As I said earlier, I didn't bother trying to post or explain this before because it's hard to communicate, it is more a philosophical query than a scientific argument.
But I felt compelled to broach the subject when sdsurfin said "just because you don't have sides doesn't mean your not damaging yourself" and also used the phrase "slow femininisation".

People born with Naturally occurring 5ar deficiency are referred to as having pseudo hermaphroditism.

[thechamp]

I have not made anything up. Science is about making observations, forming hypothesises, testing those hypothesises, and then forming principles based on the results of that experimentation.

However, we are limited to primitive numerical measurements of arbitrary variables for the most part and so can only make rudimentary conclusions based on precedent. The usefulness of clinical data is limited when we try to measure things like 'anxiety'.
How could we compare what an individual would be like had they not have taken the drug for a decade.
Now I AM going to make something up, just to communicate what I mean. Let's say we could compare identical twins, of similar disposition, with one having taken the drug for a decade and the other abstaining.
My hypothesis is that they would both be healthy and normal human beings with nothing wrong with them, but the guy who took the drug will obviously not have had as much 5ar or DHT chemically interacting with his brain tissue.
The question is, how does that affect his mental expression as a male human being. How does it influence his personality? It is a well known fact that the hormonal differences between men and women dramatically affect brain functioning. So what happens when we reduce one of the most potent male androgens there is, in a particular individual for a decade?

Hair, erections, and brain fog aside, something fundamental will be altered in that individual. He may be healthy, I don't want to be insensitive, but he may also have made a compromise on that which solidifies male brain function.


As I said earlier, I didn't bother trying to post or explain this before because it's hard to communicate, it is more a philosophical query than a scientific argument.
But I felt compelled to broach the subject when sdsurfin said "just because you don't have sides doesn't mean your not damaging yourself" and also used the phrase "slow femininisation".

People born with Naturally occurring 5ar deficiency are referred to as having pseudo hermaphroditism.

How's your hair going man with the laser derma rolling ?

[KO1]

I have not made anything up. Science is about making observations, forming hypothesises, testing those hypothesises, and then forming principles based on the results of that experimentation.

However, we are limited to primitive numerical measurements of arbitrary variables for the most part and so can only make rudimentary conclusions based on precedent. The usefulness of clinical data is limited when we try to measure things like 'anxiety'.
How could we compare what an individual would be like had they not have taken the drug for a decade.
Now I AM going to make something up, just to communicate what I mean. Let's say we could compare identical twins, of similar disposition, with one having taken the drug for a decade and the other abstaining.
My hypothesis is that they would both be healthy and normal human beings with nothing wrong with them, but the guy who took the drug will obviously not have had as much 5ar or DHT chemically interacting with his brain tissue.
The question is, how does that affect his mental expression as a male human being. How does it influence his personality? It is a well known fact that the hormonal differences between men and women dramatically affect brain functioning. So what happens when we reduce one of the most potent male androgens there is, in a particular individual for a decade?

Hair, erections, and brain fog aside, something fundamental will be altered in that individual. He may be healthy, I don't want to be insensitive, but he may also have made a compromise on that which solidifies male brain function.


As I said earlier, I didn't bother trying to post or explain this before because it's hard to communicate, it is more a philosophical query than a scientific argument.
But I felt compelled to broach the subject when sdsurfin said "just because you don't have sides doesn't mean your not damaging yourself" and also used the phrase "slow femininisation".

People born with Naturally occurring 5ar deficiency are referred to as having pseudo hermaphroditism.

I am getting brain fog reading rambling posts. Maybe it is the fin?

[It's2014ComeOnAlready]

I am getting brain fog reading rambling posts. Maybe it is the fin?

What he's been saying is a lot of conjecture. However, I can say from experience of taking fin every day for over a year and a half, it has made me feel a bit foggy, and I've had the sides.

I stopped taking it recently for 5 days, and I felt better, physically and mentally then I had during the entire time taking the drug. It may not happen to everyone, but it happens....

[burtandernie]

Yeah that is my reservation about any internal drug for a non critical health issue. There are many things that happen over the years that are impossible to ever pin down what caused them but your body is constantly changing until you die so fin could change any number of things many of which are not yet understood or wont be noticed. When you get your first wrinkles, grey hair, or millions of other possible things did fin contribute to that or was it just a separate naturally occurring thing? I dont like those thoughts even if it costs me hair.
The topical route CB or maybe RU if it had a little more safety information are much better ways to go about treating the problem. MPB has always been a topical problem why on earth are we monkeying with things far beyond anyone understanding for a cosmetic issue? Never made sense to me but I realize is the only major valid option still

[Keki]

I have brain fog, lack of libido, ball ache and .....i don't take propecia lol i guess the forum gave me sides
Soon i will start fina, i cant really be worse

[burtandernie]

By all accounts fin is about as safe as drugs get but again there is no safe internal drug. Probably never will be and MPB has the huge advantage that its largely a topical problem.

[KO1]

What he's been saying is a lot of conjecture. However, I can say from experience of taking fin every day for over a year and a half, it has made me feel a bit foggy, and I've had the sides.

I stopped taking it recently for 5 days, and I felt better, physically and mentally then I had during the entire time taking the drug. It may not happen to everyone, but it happens....

You are one of the people that has side effects. It's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean that everybody is going to get it.