Spencer Kobren Discusses Post Finasteride Syndrome 5/5/12

[SoothSayer]

I actually didnt even take statistics in high school, so you are completely correct there!!

Nothing more really needs to be said here. This is evidence of such immense hubris that your judgment simply cannot be trusted. If you do not understand even the fundamentals of statistical study, what makes you think you have the capacity to interpret the statistical data of clinical trials?

That would be equivalent to me offering a contemporary critique on renaissance portraiture. Please don't offer your opinion when you don't have the background or knowledge to deserve an opinion.

[the_charger]

Nothing more really needs to be said here. This is evidence of such immense hubris that your judgment simply cannot be trusted. If you do not understand even the fundamentals of statistical study, what makes you think you have the capacity to interpret the statistical data of clinical trials?

That would be equivalent to me offering a contemporary critique on renaissance portraiture. Please don't offer your opinion when you don't have the background or knowledge to deserve an opinion.

you've got me there. you clearly know more about statistics than I do. but one thing I do know for certain is that numbers can be easily manipulated to make it *look* like they are supporting your viewpoint. companies do it all the time, in fact, any commercial you see with graphs or statistics showing how well their products work are complete BS. just because you ran the numbers through a few calculations and found something you like doesnt mean you are correct.

I also know that with the power of the internet, if you believe something strongly enough, you can ALWAYS find evidence to support it if you look hard enough.

Lets forget about statistics though, because the fact you keep dancing around is that the researchers at the university that actually conducted this peer reviewed and published medical study did not see any significance. why should I trust someone on the internet who has such an extremely strong bias and does whatever he can to make look finasteride look as bad as possible, over a dozen researchers with doctorates who actually conducted the study??? how about you get a study published and peer reviewed and then we can talk!

you keep trying to undermine my intelligence, but I know the points i make are strong and you usually arent able to make a good argument against them. most of your arguments include having to take your word on things, conspiracy theories, cover ups, and so on...

back on to the PLESS though, this is your sole piece of proof that you keep going back to. but you dont stop to realize that there are dozens of other studies out there that DONT show the same results as this. any rational person would see this and think "well maybe there was an unintended bias in the PLESS that showed these unusual results". and of course, we look at it and see that almost HALF of the participants already had a history of sexual dysfunction, which is a huge problem right from the start... you are conveniently looking past these issues because you see something in this study you can pick out and use to support what you believe.



My final point: if you dont want to listen to or read anything else I said, read this:

Your arguments are really all over the place… this is an overview of your stance up until now:

You believe merck is covering up evidence that they have always known finasteride caused persisting symptoms. You thought that merck actually conducted the PLESS, while they knew all along that finasteride caused persistent symptoms. Yet you say this study undoubtedly shows exactly what you claim they are trying to cover up. then you argue that the fact the researchers concluded there was no significance in persisting side effects was just another coverup by merck to make their drug look better… okay…

Now I tell you that merck did NOT actually conduct this study, but it was done at a university. Okay, so now the researchers there ****ed up and misinterpreted the data. Oh wait a second, they received a grant from merck? Okay then obviously merck changed the results of the study… wait, but the math itself shows what they are trying to cover up, even though the verbiage shows the drug is safe? okay well maybe the guy that is in charge of the cover-ups at merck was on a vacation.

You keep changing your theories to support the argument you are trying to win at the moment... you can probably see why I take what you say with a grain of salt.

[SoothSayer]

I have not been changing my arguments and I have made irrefutable points that you simply have not understood. I asked you to research the concept of 'statistical significance' as it is from statistics 100 and you haven't done so. Your opinion is based off of such little expertise it doesn't mean anything. Your comments about manipulating numbers to prove points only really means that people who don't understand statistics can be easily fooled by certain arguments. You do not understand them, but if you did you would see exactly what I am talking about.

I don't remember the exact details of who conducted the PLESS study. If it is true that it was only funded by Merck, which I am not sure is true, it doesn't really change anything since their financial involvement threatens objectivity. Either way, the study still shows that finasteride caused more irreversible erectile dysfunction above the placebo showing that the drug does in fact cause the symptoms in question.

I will no longer respond to your messages as I have said what needs to be said. I hope Spencer will listen to our voice and help work to uncover the nuances of this tragedy. He protects men against fraudulent hair surgeons who victimize patients by stealing their money. Merck has victimized innocent patients by stealing their livelihood and happiness which is priceless.

[SoothSayer]

http://www.cafepharma.com/boards/showthread.php?t=502505

This may give you a little extra insight into Merck's culture as it currently stands. This forum is for drug representatives and they are discussing their experiences working at Merck. Notably, there is not a single disagreeing opinion. You will be hard-pressed to find even a single positive comment about the company in the entire forum.

Here is an example of Merck exploiting and abusing its employees. We know that they have killed their patients for money. And recently this year they were fined nearly $1 billion dollars for criminal activities in which they directly lied to the government. Their shareholders are not even benefitting as the company has hemorrhaged more than half of its value in the past 12 years.