New Topical Finasteride: Anchoring liposomes at the skin level (serum levels: 1/18th)

[nobs]

There's no way in hell I'm spending $74 per month on this solution, hopefully the formulation won't be so expensive in the U.S.

[barfacan]

Remember guys, .05 mg of finasteride is still within the (nearly)flat-dose response range.

[nobs]

Remember guys, .05 mg of finasteride is still within the (nearly)flat-dose response range.

This isn't about the cost of finasteride, it's about limiting systematic exposure to the drug for people like me and many others who have side effects on the drug.

[barfacan]

Read my post again, silly goose.

[nobs]

Read my post again, silly goose.

You were referencing this chart no?

[barfacan]

Right. Now what's the concentration of their topical? It's probably going to be at least 1 MG / ML or something similar, so if you're applying 1 ML of this stuff, and 1/18th goes internal, you're getting ~.056 mg systemic absorption, which will still elicit side effects. This is all provided that Finasteride is effective topically, which many people are convinced IT IS NOT. It's believed that Finasteride must go systemic in order to be effective against Alopecia. Finasteride blocks the 5AR2 enzymatic conversion, 5AR2 is not exclusively located in the scalp. So you'll still have the T ---> DHT being converted elsewhere in the body, floating around then attaching to receptors in the hair follicle, which is why you must inhibit the 5AR2 enzyme systemically to greatly reduce the conversion of T -> DHT, SYSTEM WIDE. This is my rudimentary knowledge of the subject.

[nobs]

Right. Now what's the concentration of their topical? It's probably going to be at least 1 MG / ML or something similar, so if you're applying 1 ML of this stuff, and 1/18th goes internal, you're getting ~.056 mg systemic absorption, which will still elicit side effects. This is all provided that Finasteride is effective topically, which many people are convinced IT IS NOT. It's believed that Finasteride must go systemic in order to be effective against Alopecia. Finasteride blocks the 5AR2 enzymatic conversion, 5AR2 is not exclusively located in the scalp. So you'll still have the T ---> DHT being converted elsewhere in the body, floating around then attaching to receptors in the hair follicle, which is why you must inhibit the 5AR2 enzyme systemically to greatly reduce the conversion of T -> DHT, SYSTEM WIDE. This is my rudimentary knowledge of the subject.

Right, but I think the goal of the liposomes is to have the drug suspended in the scalp, so to create a differential between blood levels and scalp levels of dht, which are not in perfect balance according the propecia studies. From what I remember, scalp levels of dht were 44-50% lower while the subjects were on finasteride, which is markedly different than the roughly 70% serum reduction, maybe suggesting less blood flow to the scalp than other regions, which would make a topical more optimal. If topical minoxidil is able to work and be undetectable in the blood then I don't see a reason why topical finasteride couldn't as well.

[barfacan]

I just don't believe locally inhibiting 5AR2 in the scalp is going to do any good, as that's not where the majority of that particular activity takes place. Now if you could, say, locally inhibit the DHT receptor, or find another molecule that competes with it, LOCALLY, that may be a winner. The fact that Finasteride reduces serum DHT levels more so than scalp oesn't necessarily mean a topical would work better. For all we know, there is negligible 5AR2 activity in the scalp to begin with. Unless i'm totally wrong and somebody has proof of the opposite? If so, then i suppose it could theoretically work for some people provided you dont get much spillover of DHT from the rest of the body.


WRT minoxidil: Apples and Oranges; As far as anyone knows, minoxidil has no affect on the androgenic system, i believe it primarily affects Nitric oxide. It merely offsets hair loss / increases hair growth. It does not need to go systemic. That's why it only

[marklin]

Hhasson and wong topical Finasteride is 0.25%. Which mean 2.5 mg/ml. Which mean 2.5 mg of Finasteride on your head everyday. That is too much!

[Mountinvan]

Available in US?

It is true that Trump is making it harder to get anything into US, but given the state of his hair, he might allow some topical fin. He does it orally Time for H&W to take pity on US follicularly challenged bloats.

[thechamp]

It is true that Trump is making it harder to get anything into US, but given the state of his hair, he might allow some topical fin. He does it orally Time for H&W to take pity on US follicularly challenged bloats.

No http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health...dy-did-n715481 , trump is speeding FDA trials up

[d3nt3dsh0v3l]

I called the 1-800 number on H&W's website to see if it is available in the U.S. and I was told that it was and that U.S. patients need to contact the Vancouver office and have a prescription faxed over to them, as the blog article suggested. I specifically asked if it were available to U.S. patients since the blog article suggests otherwise (but was also written almost a year ago) and the office confirmed that they do indeed handle U.S. customers. Idk I'm skeptical so I will call the Vancouver office and talk to them also. The office also claimed that they have yet to see side effects in their patients who use the liposomal solution and that the doctors themselves currently use it.

Guys, I am really considering trying it. I think it would be cool if several of us on the forum gave it a shot and did before/after bloodwork rather than debate it so hotly. We are just trying to answer a simple question, right? Within a month of use, is there a significant impact on serum DHT and/or are any side effects experienced? If not we may continue to see if there is significant improvement in hair. If there is no change in serum DHT, then maybe that doesn't necessarily mean that finasteride has not gone systemic but I think if a change is noted, we can strongly suspect that the prostate is affected as well. It's a bit frustrating that all of the "data" shown are for a single dose or a short duration because one should fully expect tissue accumulation as this is well known about finasteride. There's a great chance that the serum levels of finasteride are only low for the first few doses so it would really be important wait long enough to reach a steady state before testing serum levels again. I often wonder if all the people studying topical finasteride deliberately avoid investigating that in order to make the product look more promising than it is. It really seems like common sense to not look at single dose data in order to formulate a conclusion about drug efficacy for chronic use.

I think the concept makes sense. Cage the drug in a vesicle that is functionalized to become entrapped in the skin and offers diffusion resistance against finasteride, resulting in very slow release of the drug from the vesicle. If there is infinite mass transfer resistance, you can imagine that the drug can never diffuse out of the vesicle. If there is no mass transfer resistance, it goes systemic immediately like with finasteride just dissolved in a small molecule solvent. Presumable, this can be tuned. My main concern is the dose; one can also imagine that if the concentration of finasteride in the vesicle is extremely high, there is enough of a driving force for the drug to eventually make its way into the body. Thus even if the general idea of liposomal delivery can be made to work, it seems to me that it might not work if the parameters aren't appropriately tuned (for example, the liposomes do not release the drug at an appropriate rate or they do not anchor well into the skin, etc.). To that extent, I have no idea if H&W found good working conditions or not because there isn't any literature released. All I have is what the office claims and what's on the blog. Either way, I think it's worth while for a few of us to try - the worst thing that can happen is that the treatment devolves into the equivalent of taking oral finasteride. I think $70/mo is pretty reasonable if the topical really does significantly protect against systematic absorption.

[robodoc]

It may not be too much. The liposomal formula is not intended to be adsorbed. Try it first and if you get side effects stop it. If product is made properly you should see little side effects.....for anyone who cannot get an erection because of Finasteride I found Cialis 5mg (get Canadian made generic not their other generics) solved my complaints. Just the erection part, not sperm production which may be another concern for some, but not me.

[Hairo]

Dosage

Hey guys I've just purchased some 1% and 2.5%, I was on normal propecia for a year about 6 years ago but couldn't handle the sides.. Been on Minoxidil but recently started losing a lot of ground.. So thought I try the topical, I'm just worried on the strength of the mixes I got from the Italian company. Also how do I use it? Just rub it on it doesn't state dosage or anything?

[Hairo]

Anyway contacted hw, so the dose is what one pump provides which isn't a lot and you spread with your fingers on your scalp. Anyone else using the topical at the moment?