What is so bad about FUT transplants

From a lot of the posts I'm reading on BTT, there seems to be a great stigma attached to FUT hair transplants (the scarring issue usually comes up), and I'm wondering what is really so bad about the procedure? It is a fraction of the price of FUE transplants and seems to yield good results for those who get them.

An interesting link also worth a read.

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair...-and-cons-fue/

A truly gifted surgeon can minimize the scaring to the point that it is barely detectable, if at all. The problem is too many people have gone to hacks in the past. That is where the stigma comes from. Too few are willing to look at just how good the work done by a truly gifted surgeon is.

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

A truly gifted surgeon can minimize the scaring to the point that it is barely detectable, if at all. The problem is too many people have gone to hacks in the past. That is where the stigma comes from. Too few are willing to look at just how good the work done by a truly gifted surgeon is.

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I see, thanks for the advice. Also would there be gifted surgeons of this caliber in countries like Poland and Turkey? The prices for HP's in countries such as these seems to be way less expensive than Western countries. Also, people go to other countries for cheaper operations for other faults and problems, can the same concept be applied to hair transplants, or is it generally not advisable?

Here is an example

http://www.haartransplanet.de/index....ul-turkey.html

Up to 2,000 grafts for €1650. This is more than 5 times less than what I'd be paying in a Western country. My premise would be that (a) the majority of stuff is way cheaper in countries like Turkey anyway and that (b) medical personnel are paid a fraction of what they would be in Western countries. However, is there some kind of a catch here that I'm not seeing? Is this a case of something looking and been too good to be true, or are there genuinely options that cheap available to those on currently limited budgets (student and not working)?

Hey Dav7

thanks for the link. Something worth considering.

FUT should be the norm as a skilled surgeon can perform this procedure now.

http://www.virginiasurgical.com/tric...donor-closure/

This means virtually no donor scar and of course the harvest is superior and the pricing will be drastically lower.

FUE still has a place, especially for small procedures where its not worth it to make a full cut. FUE can also repair linear scars if need be. FUE is also the future in terms of body hair and beard hair transplantation.

With computers and improved survival rate of the follicles , FUE for body hair will become widely popular as supplemental to scalp hair giving hope to Norwood 6 and 7 patients. :)

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Originally Posted by drybone

Hey Dav7

thanks for the link. Something worth considering.

FUT should be the norm as a skilled surgeon can perform this procedure now.

http://www.virginiasurgical.com/tric...donor-closure/

This means virtually no donor scar and of course the harvest is superior and the pricing will be drastically lower.

FUE still has a place, especially for small procedures where its not worth it to make a full cut. FUE can also repair linear scars if need be. FUE is also the future in terms of body hair and beard hair transplantation.

With computers and improved survival rate of the follicles , FUE for body hair will become widely popular as supplemental to scalp hair giving hope to Norwood 6 and 7 patients. :)

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Thanks for this. Just two questions if you have a bit of time, (a) can a NW 2.5+ go to a NW1 after a hair transplant, and (b) can anybody become a candidate for a HP, and if not - what would be the conditions for not been an eligible candidate?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

A truly gifted surgeon can minimize the scaring to the point that it is barely detectable, if at all. The problem is too many people have gone to hacks in the past. That is where the stigma comes from. Too few are willing to look at just how good the work done by a truly gifted surgeon is.

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This is the exact problem. Those unfortunate people still linger around telling people to avoid HT's, when they didn't even go to a good doctor.

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Originally Posted by Dav7

(a) can a NW 2.5+ go to a NW1 after a hair transplant, and (b) can anybody become a candidate for a HP...

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Something very important to keep in mind is that most ethical hair restoration surgeons will not restore a man to a Norwood 1 hair line, unless the patient is transgendered. Doctors who will agree to do this are usually much less ethical. Doctors who are much less ethical are often much less gifted by a pretty wide margin.

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

Something very important to keep in mind is that most ethical hair restoration surgeons will not restore a man to a Norwood 1 hair line, unless the patient is transgendered. Doctors who will agree to do this are usually much less ethical. Doctors who are much less ethical are often much less gifted by a pretty wide margin.

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I see, but I don't understand why it is unethical?

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

Something very important to keep in mind is that most ethical hair restoration surgeons will not restore a man to a Norwood 1 hair line, unless the patient is transgendered. Doctors who will agree to do this are usually much less ethical. Doctors who are much less ethical are often much less gifted by a pretty wide margin.

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Not true.

http://www.rahalhairtransplant.com/

Look at rahal's poster boy with his hair pushed up.

That is a NW1.

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Originally Posted by yeahyeahyeah

Not true.

http://www.rahalhairtransplant.com/

Look at rahal's poster boy with his hair pushed up.

That is a NW1.

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Interesting. What NW was he before the transplant that brought him down to a NW1?

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Thanks for this. Just two questions if you have a bit of time, (a) can a NW 2.5+ go to a NW1 after a hair transplant, and (b) can anybody become a candidate for a HP, and if not - what would be the conditions for not been an eligible candidate?

Thanks

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I agree with Tracy. Generally speaking a good surgeon will not try to make you a Norwood 1.

I know it sounds depressing. Is the doctor refusing just for spite? No. He will refuse because of two main factors.

Men who want a norwood 1 are usually under 30 and just want their original hairline back. Unfortunately, if the doctor does this, the patient will continue to bald behind it and eventually end up with 'Joe Biden' syndrome. Doctors need to know how bald you will become before they set expectations of a permanent hairline.

Fin and Minox can help stave off balding, but nobody knows yet if it can repel the balding forever. Its too new.

I am almost 47, and am a Norwood 3 A . Which means no crown loss just on top diffuse thinning. At my age its almost a guarantee I will never bald. So now its just a matter of how many grafts it will take to make me a norwood 1.

But I am find with some recede. I think a Norwood 2 with some recede at the temples looks mature, masculine and the ladies like it.

Just think it over.

I will post picks of good looking men with Norwood 2 with recedes on the sides if you wish. :)

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Originally Posted by drybone

I agree with Tracy. Generally speaking a good surgeon will not try to make you a Norwood 1.

I know it sounds depressing. Is the doctor refusing just for spite? No. He will refuse because of two main factors.

Men who want a norwood 1 are usually under 30 and just want their original hairline back. Unfortunately, if the doctor does this, the patient will continue to bald behind it and eventually end up with 'Joe Biden' syndrome. Doctors need to know how bald you will become before they set expectations of a permanent hairline.

Fin and Minox can help stave off balding, but nobody knows yet if it can repel the balding forever. Its too new.

I am almost 47, and am a Norwood 3 A . Which means no crown loss just on top diffuse thinning. At my age its almost a guarantee I will never bald. So now its just a matter of how many grafts it will take to make me a norwood 1.

But I am find with some recede. I think a Norwood 2 with some recede at the temples looks mature, masculine and the ladies like it.

Just think it over.

I will post picks of good looking men with Norwood 2 with recedes on the sides if you wish. :)

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Ok, how about a NW 1.5 then? Look I don't care about whether it will recede in future because I'd be more than willing to get another HP down the line, along with using meds/ the big 3 etc to halt some further loss. Money has nothing to do with this, I put my own personal well-being before having extra money in the bank, so if I have worked for and raised enough of my money to get the hairline I wish for, why should I be denied this given that I've saved up for such a service and am willing to undergo it?

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Ok, how about a NW 1.5 then? Look I don't care about whether it will recede in future because I'd be more than willing to get another HP down the line, along with using meds/ the big 3 etc to halt some further loss. Money has nothing to do with this, I put my own personal well-being before having extra money in the bank, so if I have worked for and raised enough of my money to get the hairline I wish for, why should I be denied this given that I've saved up for such a service and am willing to undergo it?

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Can I ask how old you are and can u put up a quick picture or two so we know what we are dealing with? There are lots of good folks on here who are trained professionals who can advise you better than I.

Post up pics of your hair and lets take a look. :)

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Originally Posted by drybone

Can I ask how old you are and can u put up a quick picture or two so we know what we are dealing with? There are lots of good folks on here who are trained professionals who can advise you better than I.

Post up pics of your hair and lets take a look. :)

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No, because I have a webcam that doesn't work unfortunately. Anyway, I've already gone to a clinic and they suggested NW 2.5 or thereabouts and that is good enough for me. I'm 27 years of age and have noticed receding for about 3 years now - it's particularly bad at the temples. I also have thick hair where MPB hasn't gained a foothold, also my maternal grandfather retained a good head of hair up until the age of 70, and even today at nearly 78 has a good hairline for a man of his age - I don't know if all of this makes a difference?

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Originally Posted by yeahyeahyeah

Not true.

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It is true. Please read what I said before you reply and make note of the fact that I said MOST. The words MOST and ALL do not mean the same thing. If you are not going to read what I write, do not reply to what I said. There are special circumstances. This person may have been one of those. If not, Dr. Rahal made a very unethical decision to do this that will haunt this patient later in his life - and Dr. Rahal knows that.

It is time for you stop beating up on me and do some real home work. Call each and every doctor on the IAHRS list and ask each and every one of them if they will do it. Then give me the names of each and every doctor who says they will do it - and why they will agree to do it. Post those names and their justifications for doing so here in this thread. Get to work and leave me alone until you are done. Do not respond to a single thing I post and don't say a single word to me until you are done.

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Originally Posted by Dav7

I see, but I don't understand why it is unethical?

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Generally, the risks of the surgery outweighs the perceived benefit - and it is often a pointless waste of valuable donor hair that will likely be needed later in life as the patients' hair loss progresses through it's natural course. There are special circumstances though. A male who is transgendered is just one example of special circumstances. Males who are transgendered and decide to transition often get themselves castrated. Since castration completely halts the natural progression of hereditary hair loss, the concern for preserving donor capacity for future procedures is eliminated.

Another special circumstance would be a patient who responds exceptionally well to Propecia and completely halts the natural progression of his hereditary hair loss as a result of that exceptional response. A more conservative doctor will likely still refuse to restore a Norwood 1 for such a patient though.

Another special circumstance would be a patient with severe body dismorphic disorder who is willing to accept the possibility of running out of donor hair as his hereditary hair loss progresses. The doctor weighs these realities very heavily before agreeing to restore a Norwood 1 hair line for the patient. Ultimately, the decision is with the patient at that time - and it is usually a very bad decision that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

Generally, the risks of the surgery outweighs the perceived benefit - and it is often a pointless waste of valuable donor hair that will likely be needed later in life as the patients' hair loss progresses through it's natural course. There are special circumstances though. A male who is transgendered is just one example of special circumstances. Males who are transgendered and decide to transition often get themselves castrated. Since castration completely halts the natural progression of hereditary hair loss, the concern for preserving donor capacity for future procedures is eliminated.

Another special circumstance would be a patient who responds exceptionally well to Propecia and completely halts the natural progression of his hereditary hair loss as a result of that exceptional response. A more conservative doctor will likely still refuse to restore a Norwood 1 for such a patient though.

Another special circumstance would be a patient with severe body dismorphic disorder who is willing to accept the possibility of running out of donor hair as his hereditary hair loss progresses. The doctor weighs these realities very heavily before agreeing to restore a Norwood 1 hair line for the patient. Ultimately, the decision is with the patient at that time - and it is usually a very bad decision that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

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Ok, but how long does it take to know whether or not propecia has halted a person's hair loss? Also, aren't breakthroughs been made in regards to grafting facial and body hair onto transplant patients so that in future HP's won't be limited to the donor area, and that getting a NW1 transplant would therefore be less risky?

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Ok, but how long does it take to know whether or not propecia has halted a person's hair loss? Also, aren't breakthroughs been made in regards to grafting facial and body hair onto transplant patients so that in future HP's won't be limited to the donor area, and that getting a NW1 transplant would therefore be less risky?

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I understand where you are coming from dude. I started losing my front hairline when I was 20. :(

I would have traded my left nut to have it back , but what if I went Norwood 6 or 7 bald by age 35 or 40? We dont have enough hair grafts to possibly cover that. On average, we have about 7000 grafts from our scalp. To get the maximum benefit, I would recommend a FUT as they can harvest them all and have a 99% regrowth .

As for body hair, you are right. Once they perfect the FUE to extract body hair and attain at least 90% regrowth, then a whole world opens up for almost anyone going bald. However, sometimes the body hair simply wont regrow after being moved. Scalp hair always regrows no matter where you place it.

We are not here to try to take any rights away from you or rain on your parade. We are just telling you our experience and what we know. If you want a norwood 1 hairline, and find a doctor willing to do it, then if you are 18 or older, you have the right to make that decision for yourself.

Let us know how it goes :)

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Originally Posted by drybone

I would have traded my left nut to have it back , but what if I went Norwood 6 or 7 bald by age 35 or 40? We dont have enough hair grafts to possibly cover that. On average, we have about 7000 grafts from our scalp. To get the maximum benefit, I would recommend a FUT as they can harvest them all and have a 99% regrowth .

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Really, so FUT transplants are actually better in the long run than FUE transplants? Also, what do you mean by regrowth - is it regrowth in hair, or regrowth in the donor region? Also, just out of mild curiosity, if what you are saying is true, then why are FUE operations on average 2-3 times more expensive than FUT operations given what you've just stated?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Really, so FUT transplants are actually better in the long run than FUE transplants? Also, what do you mean by regrowth - is it regrowth in hair, or regrowth in the donor region? Also, just out of mild curiosity, if what you are saying is true, then why are FUE operations on average 2-3 times more expensive than FUT operations given what you've just stated?

Thanks.

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Where are you getting this information from? Can you put up the source for this?

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Ok, but how long does it take to know whether or not propecia has halted a person's hair loss?

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You need to ask the doctors that one. The makers of Propecia state that it takes a full year to determine if the medicine is able to arrest your hair loss.

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Also, aren't breakthroughs been made...

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No ethical doctor is going to gamble on a maybe. Many of us are confident that better treatments will come - but the really good doctors are not going to design a restoration plan for you that relies on things that are not yet a certainty.

Facial and body hair transplants are for worst case scenarios. They do not look good and they certainly do not look anything close to natural. Any doctor who does such a procedure just to give a man a Norwood 1 hair line is an unethical hack that should have their license to practice medicine revoked.

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

It is true. Please read what I said before you reply and make note of the fact that I said MOST. The words MOST and ALL do not mean the same thing. If you are not going to read what I write, do not reply to what I said. There are special circumstances. This person may have been one of those. If not, Dr. Rahal made a very unethical decision to do this that will haunt this patient later in his life - and Dr. Rahal knows that.

It is time for you stop beating up on me and do some real home work. Call each and every doctor on the IAHRS list and ask each and every one of them if they will do it. Then give me the names of each and every doctor who says they will do it - and why they will agree to do it. Post those names and their justifications for doing so here in this thread. Get to work and leave me alone until you are done. Do not respond to a single thing I post and don't say a single word to me until you are done.

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Well dr ferundi, hasson and Wong were all willing to restore my hair to a NW1


.....soooooo

if you have nw6 and nw7 in your family, then it would be crazy to go for FUT as you are still young and medicines might just stop working for you or you might just end up quitting them because of sides. a smiley face scar on the back of your head is the worst thing you can have if your hair loss progress to nw6/nw7 regardless how thin the scar is.

Dav7,

Every individual is unique and a large number of variables need to be taken into consideration when deciding not just on a short to medium term plan but also longer term plan for hair loss.

Different clinics have different approaches and outlooks towards hair loss & hair restoration.

The easiest thing you could do is to post some pictures up.

Im glad that this thread has been started. I have a couple of personal friends that have had FUT HTs by doctors whom are qualified, experienced, respected AND ethical.
Ive seen up close how NATURAL a good HT looks. I agree with Tracy, unless the patient is of a special circumstance , trying to bring your hair down to a NW1 is very risky. No matter what age or NW scale you are. Not unless you do have a crystal ball and KNOW for certain what your hair will be like in the future.
HTs are not CURES of course. They are surgical treatments to provide IMPROVEMENTS to your ailing pate.

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Originally Posted by yeahyeahyeah

Not true.

http://www.rahalhairtransplant.com/

Look at rahal's poster boy with his hair pushed up.

That is a NW1.

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Wouldn't surprise if he was just one of those NW2 guys with great hair already pre-HT. I see a lot of those in the results section of this site. They have ridiculously nice hair and minimal loss to begin with.

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Originally Posted by drybone

Where are you getting this information from? Can you put up the source for this?

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They are pretty significantly expensive.

I think on average FUT's are $4, and FUE's are $8, while i've seen FUE's for $11. That is indeed 2 times more expensive than FUT. If you get, let's say 2500 FUT grafts at $4, that would be $10k, while 2500 FUE at $8 would be $20k. Huge difference.

The source: Just look through the "costs" section of most IAHRS doctor's pages.

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Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting

They are pretty significantly expensive.

I think on average FUT's are $4, and FUE's are $8, while i've seen FUE's for $11. That is indeed 2 times more expensive than FUT. If you get, let's say 2500 FUT grafts at $4, that would be $10k, while 2500 FUE at $8 would be $20k. Huge difference.

The source: Just look through the "costs" section of most IAHRS doctor's pages.

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Mine was a FUT and was $3 per graft. I would never pay anyone $8 a graft . Even if they could guarantee me 99% body/ beard hair results.

My scar is still fairly fresh but unless its buzz 2 you cant see the line. It looks like someone drew a line with a pencil..

Ok, can the people here please describe to me what a "mature hairline" is, because I have always associated a mature hairline with the NW1 type of hairline. Is a mature hairline a NW1 or a NW1.5 or a NW2? To be honest, I wouldn't mind having a "mature hairline" as a result of a transplant. Even though I am 27 years of age, I have a baby face and would easily pass for a teenager were it not for MPB, so I wouldn't mind a mature hairline given that I would look even more babyish and like a teenager with a juvenile hairline. So what is the definition of a "mature hairline", is it a NW1, a NW1.5 or a NW.2? Thanks for all help. I just want a normal hairline for my age, but looking like a teen - the last thing I want at 27 years of age is a hairline that would make me look like some Justin Bieber replica, given that been a baby face would give off that impression of been even younger than I already am.

I just want an appropriate Norwood scale for my age and hairline without MPB, to give me some dignity and masculinity. I am a Norwood 2.5, so what Norwood should I be aiming for with a HP? Again, I want a normal hairline for my age (27), but I don't want the whole teenage, immature juvenile hairline look - so what should I am be aiming for on the Norwood scale? Once again, I have always associated the mature hairline with a NW1, so that is why I am partially panicking here.

Dav7,

Put some pictures up.:cool:

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Originally Posted by yeahyeahyeah

Well dr ferundi, hasson and Wong were all willing to restore my hair to a NW1


.....soooooo

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Sooooooo, go for it
When your 40 or 50 years old and lost the rest of your hair it will be noticebale that you had something done.
The question will be do you have enough hair left to keep goign back to get work done

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Originally Posted by drybone

Mine was a FUT and was $3 per graft. I would never pay anyone $8 a graft . Even if they could guarantee me 99% body/ beard hair results.

My scar is still fairly fresh but unless its buzz 2 you cant see the line. It looks like someone drew a line with a pencil..

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I wouldn't pay $8 per FUT graft either. I had said it's $8 per graft for FUE.

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Originally Posted by Dav7

Ok, can the people here please describe to me what a "mature hairline" is, because I have always associated a mature hairline with the NW1 type of hairline. Is a mature hairline a NW1 or a NW1.5 or a NW2? To be honest, I wouldn't mind having a "mature hairline" as a result of a transplant. Even though I am 27 years of age, I have a baby face and would easily pass for a teenager were it not for MPB, so I wouldn't mind a mature hairline given that I would look even more babyish and like a teenager with a juvenile hairline. So what is the definition of a "mature hairline", is it a NW1, a NW1.5 or a NW.2? Thanks for all help. I just want a normal hairline for my age, but looking like a teen - the last thing I want at 27 years of age is a hairline that would make me look like some Justin Bieber replica, given that been a baby face would give off that impression of been even younger than I already am.

I just want an appropriate Norwood scale for my age and hairline without MPB, to give me some dignity and masculinity. I am a Norwood 2.5, so what Norwood should I be aiming for with a HP? Again, I want a normal hairline for my age (27), but I don't want the whole teenage, immature juvenile hairline look - so what should I am be aiming for on the Norwood scale? Once again, I have always associated the mature hairline with a NW1, so that is why I am partially panicking here.

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Probably a 2 is what you are looking for. And you will be happy later on in life to look your age as strange as that sounds right now. Today I was at a home improvement store getting supplies for my yard and mower. The girl was having trouble working the cash register and called over an older man (about 60) to help. Immediately something looked "wrong" with him and a second or two later I realized he had a hairline of a 14 year old. It just didn't look right or normal. But as he got closer I realized he was really a women with a man's hairstyle-which was kinda strange also. When I first saw her, it was like something was wrong but took a second or two to register. It was like an instinct that something was off. When you are young having mpb is "wrong" because most men don't have it. But when you are older, it is "wrong" to have a 14 year old hairline since most men have at least some of it. I know that sounds strange but you will find it to be true when you are older.

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Originally Posted by yeahyeahyeah

Well dr ferundi, hasson and Wong were all willing to restore my hair to a NW1


.....soooooo

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No, we did not. NW1 technically does not exist on the NW chart and is typically found on females and juvenile males. There are some variations that have it but it is supposed to start at NW2 because that is what is considered to be a proper adult male hairline.

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Originally Posted by Tracy C

A truly gifted surgeon can minimize the scaring to the point that it is barely detectable, if at all. The problem is too many people have gone to hacks in the past. That is where the stigma comes from. Too few are willing to look at just how good the work done by a truly gifted surgeon is.

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But there are quite a few people who have gone to 'gifted' surgeons who have still ended up with terrible scars!

I'm surprised you used a blanket statement that almost equates to:

Top surgeon = Barely detectable scar.

I think the main issue (and certainly my issue) is that FUT is a bit of a lottery from the scar point of view. So much seems to depend on patient physiology. No surgeon (if there is, let me know) gives it in writing that their scar will be barely recognisable, simply because they cannot guarantee it.