I have been doing alot of reading lately about MPB since I read the study that implicated PGD-2 as the cause of it. One thing that stood out to me in that study was that there was an enlargement of sebaceous glands in balding areas. All of this reading got me wondering why in all of the cures and studies, no one has addressed why the side of our head never go bald.
To me it seems very simplistic.. what does the top of our head get that the rest of our head doesn't, A LOT OF SUNLIGHT. I found that an Indian doctor had implicated UV as the reason for MPB and wrote a book about it, unfortunately he wants like 300$ for the book, so I never got to read it. Upon more of my own research I came across this study: http://journal.scconline.org//pdf/cc...523-p00536.pdf which suggests that larger/more sebaceous glands may cause higher uptake of ALL testosterone, including DHT in balding scalps, than non-balding. It also proves that DHT is not really the culprit, ALL TYPES of testosterone are. Also, you can find studies that prove UV rays absolutely increase sebaceous glands.
My theory is this... Over years of our heads being exposed to the sun, many sebaceous glands continue to form. The more that form, the more the hair follicles are being blocked, and the more testosterone uptake there is. Since the sebaceous gland is pulling excessive testosterone into the follicle, the follicle will die or have a shortened anagen stage. Maybe the follicle even gets damaged so that it malfunctions by the process above.
Different thickness of hair, conditions, proximity to the sun, hair style, diet, etc would all effect the quickness which balding set in. Personally, I always had thin hair, I always kept it short, I had a bad diet, and my MPB set in when I was 17.
Has anyone tried medication that shrinks sebaceous glands, along with Minoxidil or something? I have read that Retin-A is proven to increase efficiency of Minoxidil.
08-27-2012 01:09 PM
youngin
From the study: "It has been reported that bald scalps contain larger sebaceous glands than hairy scalps (19) and since sebaceous glands are believed to be target organs for androgens (20) this may in part account for the greater uptake of testosterone by bald skin"
08-27-2012 10:20 PM
FlightTL
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
I have been doing alot of reading lately about MPB since I read the study that implicated PGD-2 as the cause of it. One thing that stood out to me in that study was that there was an enlargement of sebaceous glands in balding areas. All of this reading got me wondering why in all of the cures and studies, no one has addressed why the side of our head never go bald.
To me it seems very simplistic.. what does the top of our head get that the rest of our head doesn't, A LOT OF SUNLIGHT. I found that an Indian doctor had implicated UV as the reason for MPB and wrote a book about it, unfortunately he wants like 300$ for the book, so I never got to read it. Upon more of my own research I came across this study: http://journal.scconline.org//pdf/cc...523-p00536.pdf which suggests that larger/more sebaceous glands may cause higher uptake of ALL testosterone, including DHT in balding scalps, than non-balding. It also proves that DHT is not really the culprit, ALL TYPES of testosterone are. Also, you can find studies that prove UV rays absolutely increase sebaceous glands.
My theory is this... Over years of our heads being exposed to the sun, many sebaceous glands continue to form. The more that form, the more the hair follicles are being blocked, and the more testosterone uptake there is. Since the sebaceous gland is pulling excessive testosterone into the follicle, the follicle will die or have a shortened anagen stage. Maybe the follicle even gets damaged so that it malfunctions by the process above.
Different thickness of hair, conditions, proximity to the sun, hair style, diet, etc would all effect the quickness which balding set in. Personally, I always had thin hair, I always kept it short, I had a bad diet, and my MPB set in when I was 17.
Has anyone tried medication that shrinks sebaceous glands, along with Minoxidil or something? I have read that Retin-A is proven to increase efficiency of Minoxidil.
Could a healthy diet help to reduce over active sebaceous gland? Perhaps.
08-28-2012 06:22 AM
youngin
I think it would. I haven't researched anything specifically that will shrink them, but I am positive that the growth hormone in Milk stimulates the sebaceous glands. This has been proven in studies of Acne. Anything that boosts testosterone or HGH will stimulate your sebaceous glands. Including heavy weight lifting. That doesn't mean not to do it. I think the point is not to be exposed to the sun for too long at a time.
08-28-2012 07:18 AM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
I have been doing alot of reading lately about MPB since I read the study that implicated PGD-2 as the cause of it. One thing that stood out to me in that study was that there was an enlargement of sebaceous glands in balding areas. All of this reading got me wondering why in all of the cures and studies, no one has addressed why the side of our head never go bald.
To me it seems very simplistic.. what does the top of our head get that the rest of our head doesn't, A LOT OF SUNLIGHT. I found that an Indian doctor had implicated UV as the reason for MPB and wrote a book about it, unfortunately he wants like 300$ for the book, so I never got to read it. Upon more of my own research I came across this study: http://journal.scconline.org//pdf/cc...523-p00536.pdf which suggests that larger/more sebaceous glands may cause higher uptake of ALL testosterone, including DHT in balding scalps, than non-balding. It also proves that DHT is not really the culprit, ALL TYPES of testosterone are. Also, you can find studies that prove UV rays absolutely increase sebaceous glands.
My theory is this... Over years of our heads being exposed to the sun, many sebaceous glands continue to form. The more that form, the more the hair follicles are being blocked, and the more testosterone uptake there is. Since the sebaceous gland is pulling excessive testosterone into the follicle, the follicle will die or have a shortened anagen stage. Maybe the follicle even gets damaged so that it malfunctions by the process above.
Different thickness of hair, conditions, proximity to the sun, hair style, diet, etc would all effect the quickness which balding set in. Personally, I always had thin hair, I always kept it short, I had a bad diet, and my MPB set in when I was 17.
Has anyone tried medication that shrinks sebaceous glands, along with Minoxidil or something? I have read that Retin-A is proven to increase efficiency of Minoxidil.
it's funny how the opposite is actually observed: northern europeans bald like crazy with little sunshine and there is little baldness in all those south american countries. Amazing how australian aborigines have virtually no baldness.
are you ****ing kidding me? sunshine causes baldness??? take your crap to IH forums
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
2020 is such a genius. He has figured out the problem its PGD-2. LOL. Read the studies you asshole.
I didn't figure that out. Scientists did back in 2007. When you apply PGD2, follicle shrinks. It's not actually all PGD2 either. Upregulated inflammation in general is probably the cause of baldness. Even his patent describes a way of treating baldness by just using a COX-2 inhibitor... More than one person has reversed baldness by reducing inflammation
08-28-2012 08:21 AM
youngin
There's no proof of the cause in any study. PGD-2 may very well be a bi-product of the real CAUSE. Your guesses are just as hypothetical as mine. Blaming PGD-2 doesn't explain why hairs on the side of our heads don't suffer the same as the top, and also why hair transplants WORK. So quit pretending like you know it all. Did you even read the first study I posted?
There's tons of factors that could cause one persons scalp to have more or less sun exposure than another persons. I guess no one in northern Europe ever gets skin cancer either huh? Use your ****in eyes and do some research as to what causes cancers and acne. The possible causes of cell mutation are endless. Enlighten yourself. You sure are stupid for someone who thinks they know everything.
There's no proof of the cause in any study. PGD-2 may very well be a bi-product of the real CAUSE. Your guesses are just as hypothetical as mine.
right, inflammation. PGD2 is directly responsible for shrinking follicles. The real cause of elevated PGD2 is probably inflammation and not ****ing sunshine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Blaming PGD-2 doesn't explain why hairs on the side of our heads don't suffer the same as the top, and also why hair transplants WORK. So quit pretending like you know it all. Did you even read the first study I posted?
oh thanks for mentioning that - WHY don't they respond to "sunshine damage" then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
There's tons of factors that could cause one persons scalp to have more or less sun exposure than another persons. I guess no one in northern Europe ever gets skin cancer either huh? Use your ****in eyes and do some research as to what causes cancers and acne. The possible causes of cell mutation are endless. Enlighten yourself. You sure are stupid for someone who thinks they know everything.
amazing... prostate cancer is linked with baldness and lack of sunshine is linked to prostate cancer. Nothing fits
by the way:
Quote:
We are aware that it is rather unlikely that normal human hair bulbs are exposed to UVB doses as high as 20 or 50 mJ cm−2 in situ. Therefore, we do not claim that our model imitates the actual in vivo situation.
so what is your solution to this? Avoid sunshine?
08-28-2012 09:26 AM
youngin
Its a hypothesis that's alot stronger than yours. If you don't like it, then don't comment. Quit being a ****ing troll just because you think you know everything.
08-28-2012 09:33 AM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Its a hypothesis that's alot stronger than yours. If you don't like it, then don't comment. Quit being a ****ing troll just because you think you know everything.
who says I know everything? I never even knew about PGD2 before that study came out...
answer my questions:
if sunshine causes baldness, how come you're not balding all over?
prostate cancer is linked to baldness AND lack of sunshine. How would you explain that?
that study says that a person is very unlikely to experience that much ultraviolet radiation.
and again: what do you propose we do if your theory is right?
08-28-2012 09:40 AM
youngin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020
right, inflammation. PGD2 is directly responsible for shrinking follicles. The real cause of elevated PGD2 is probably inflammation and not ****ing sunshine.
Even if its true, what cause inflammation ONLY ON THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD?? HUH? Explain it please.
Quote:
oh thanks for mentioning that - WHY don't they respond to "sunshine damage" then?
Use some ****in common sense, you ever had a sunburn on the side of your head? Go stand outside or play some sports and see what parts of you get burned first. The top of your head, top of your shoulders/back. The top of your head is exposed to the sun far more than any other part of your body in your life.
Quote:
amazing... prostate cancer is linked with baldness and lack of sunshine is linked to prostate cancer. Nothing fits
Inflammation is linked to diet, and diet is linked to obesity, so all obese people must be bald! NOTHINGS FITS! :rolleyes:
Quote:
by the way:
Therefore, we do not claim that our model imitates the actual in vivo situation.
They would be stupid to make that claim, then be quoted by other doctors as proof. It's not empirical proof, but its a hell of alot better than your proof.
Quote:
so what is your solution to this? Avoid sunshine?
Who said I had a solution?
People like you are the reason forums go down the shitter. I make a simple hypothesis and want some logical debate and you come in just to insult me. ****ing troll. Go away.
08-28-2012 09:57 AM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Even if its true, what cause inflammation ONLY ON THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD?? HUH? Explain it please.
microinflammation? There was that study where they found more 5AR in balding sites so that's why "balding zones" go away faster than "donor sites". Overtime you would go bald all over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Use some ****in common sense, you ever had a sunburn on the side of your head? Go stand outside or play some sports and see what parts of you get burned first. The top of your head, top of your shoulders/back. The top of your head is exposed to the sun far more than any other part of your body in your life.
amazing... how come it starts with a recession then? Sides and donor do thin. How come removing androgens cures MPB despite sunshine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Inflammation is linked to diet, and diet is linked to obesity, so all obese people must be bald! NOTHINGS FITS! :rolleyes:
DHT is not always inflammatory and yes insulin resistance(obesity?) has been linked to baldness. It fits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
They would be stupid to make that claim, then be quoted by other doctors as proof. It's not empirical proof, but its a hell of alot better than your proof.
what my proof are you talking about!??! I haven't said anything new. It's all in this patent:
they proved that PGD2 inhibits hair growth while getting rid of PGD2 restores hair growth. What's the problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Who said I had a solution?
People like you are the reason forums go down the shitter. I make a simple hypothesis and want some logical debate and you come in just to insult me. ****ing troll. Go away.
your hypothesis is probably the worst I've ever read...
why do balding people have so much body hair? How come they associate so many other health problems with balding?
08-28-2012 10:00 AM
youngin
You look down a tunnel. I can adequately answer all of your questions, and you could too if you stopped being such a know it all. I wont be responding to anymore of your comments.
08-28-2012 10:07 AM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
You look down a tunnel. I can adequately answer all of your questions, and you could too if you stopped being such a know it all.
how am I know it all? I can provide sources for every one of my claims which actually makes them facts. What's your problem? Go one by one and tell me where I'm wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
I wont be responding to anymore of your comments.
classic excuse from someone who is losing... you should go into politics
08-28-2012 11:00 AM
gmonasco
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
All of this reading got me wondering why in all of the cures and studies, no one has addressed why the side of our head never go bald. To me it seems very simplistic.. what does the top of our head get that the rest of our head doesn't, A LOT OF SUNLIGHT.
But many people who spend most of their lives outdoors and get a good deal of sun on their heads don't develop MPB, while many other people who spend very little time in the sun at all develop MPB nonetheless.
08-28-2012 11:13 AM
Dazza
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020
classic excuse from someone who is losing... you should go into politics
Lol'd.
That's a point tho, how come those people that were balding then became castrated stopped balding? The sunlight didn't just stop attacking there scalps because the sun felt bad he lost his balls.
08-28-2012 11:13 AM
youngin
I thought of that also, but if you think about it.. someone with dense hair would have their scalp protected by the hair itself blocking the sun, than someone with thinner hair. Hair style would also account for some of that. There's so many variables its hard to make an accurate statement.
We know that most cell mutation (cancer) is due to immune system, diet, environment. These would all be critical factors. Not to say that baldness is cancer, but the study did show that some DNA damage was done by UV rays. Maybe we don't get exposed to the EXACT UV intensity as the study, but we are exposed to UV rays for thousands of hours in our life.
08-28-2012 11:21 AM
youngin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazza
That's a point tho, how come those people that were balding then became castrated stopped balding? The sunlight didn't just stop attacking there scalps because the sun felt bad he lost his balls.
Testosterone has a large impact on sebaceous glands. Maybe its needed for their growth also? Just a guess, haven't researched that. Testosterone was removed from the equation, its no longer overdosing the follicle. What I'm suggesting isn't outrageous, its just to say that maybe this is how our follicles get to the condition they are in. It wouldn't discredit any other method of medication or study.
you're concerned that enlarged sebaceous glands due to sunshine exposure increase androgen uptake thus accelerating balding? Is this your whole argument or do you dismiss the whole DHT theory altogether?
08-28-2012 12:18 PM
youngin
It would be nice to find the study that is quoted here "Recently, a group of Japanese researcher reported a correlation between excessive sebum in the scalp and hair loss. Excessive sebum often accompanying thinning hair is attributed to an enlargement of the sebaceous gland. They believed excessive sebum causes an high level of 5-alpha reductase and pore clogging, thus malnutrition of the hair root."
08-28-2012 12:39 PM
DotheDewNorwood2
Um......
Youngin, I've been a lurker on here for 5 years now, occasionally commenting or posting my own questions. But what you've posted regarding this sunlight theory has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read on this forum in years. Almost as ridiculous as the whole skull expansion theory. 2020 hit the nail on the head with his very first response to you in this thread.
But then again, he raises several other great points about why some cultures that experience direct sunlight to their heads year round don't develop MPB, yet northern Euro's balding like crazy, and your retort is based on how they style their hair.
Medical research has made tremendous strides in determining the root cause of hair loss and there are many pieces to this puzzle because of the anatomical makeup of a hair follicle and how it is effected by our hormonal system. Very complex science. Thank you for setting us back 5 years on this thread. Lets try to stick to peer reviewed studies and not anecdotal books that cost $29.95.
08-28-2012 12:41 PM
youngin
I posted several studies? Whats your argument? Read the links.
08-28-2012 12:49 PM
youngin
Its just sooooooo ridiculous to say the sun causes it! Even though science has obviously shown UV rays damage our DNA and follicles, and increase sebaceous glands. IM SO CRAZY THOUGH! Just because its on the top of our heads only, the part of our body the most UV rays hit through our lives, IT CANT BE THAT. IT MUST BE THAT DHT ONLY ATTACK THE TOP OF OUR HEAD, THATS MUCH MORE EXPLAINABLE!
LOL. You people are hilarious. Try thinking outside the box instead of regurgitating information you read.
08-28-2012 12:54 PM
2020
first study claimed that high sebaceous gland activity may cause higher uptake of androgens. Fine, but I don't agree about ALL androgens being able to cause baldness because those early studies about 5AR deficient people with normal T levels prove that it's all about DHT.
second study:
Quote:
We are aware that it is rather unlikely that normal human hair bulbs are exposed to UVB doses as high as 20 or 50 mJ cm−2 in situ. Therefore, we do not claim that our model imitates the actual in vivo situation.
you have nothing but "hypothesies" from just another $29.99 "cure book"
Vitamin A regulates sebaceous glands(that's why accutane works) so start a thread about that and not some sunshine theory...
08-28-2012 12:59 PM
youngin
All of the other hypothesis fail with one simple fact. WHY does the back and side of the head not bald also? Such a simple thing no one can answer cause doctors are looking for just a treatment, so they tell you to throw some drugs in your body that stops DHT conversion. Stupidity. DHT may very well be part of the process, but its definitely not the cause.
08-28-2012 12:59 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Its just sooooooo ridiculous to say the sun causes it! Even though science has obviously shown UV rays damage our DNA and follicles, and increase sebaceous glands. IM SO CRAZY THOUGH! Just because its on the top of our heads only, the part of our body the most UV rays hit through our lives, IT CANT BE THAT. IT MUST BE THAT DHT ONLY ATTACK THE TOP OF OUR HEAD, THATS MUCH MORE EXPLAINABLE!
LOL. You people are hilarious. Try thinking outside the box instead of regurgitating information you read.
so you're dismissing DHT altogether? Is it just a coincidence that DHT blockers stop MPB completely and that steroids and DHT analogs accelerate MPB?
08-28-2012 01:01 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
All of the other hypothesis fail with one simple fact. WHY does the back and side of the head not bald also?
I ALREADY TOLD YOU!! MPB zones have a higher 5AR activity that's a fact and that's why MPB zones go bald so fast. DONOR ZONES lose density too but much slower. What don't you understand about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Such a simple thing no one can answer cause doctors are looking for just a treatment, so they tell you to throw some drugs in your body that stops DHT conversion. Stupidity. DHT may very well be part of the process, but its definitely not the cause.
DHT is the sole "messenger" that starts this balding process. I don't care what happens afterwards. It's known fact that without DHT you would never go bald
08-28-2012 01:16 PM
youngin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020
I ALREADY TOLD YOU!! MPB zones have a higher 5AR activity that's a fact and that's why MPB zones go bald so fast.
OMG YOU TOOL. WHY DO THEY HAVE A HIGHER 5AR ACTIVITY ONLY ONTOP OF YOUR HEAD??? IM NOT ARGUING THAT DHT DOESNT FACILITATE THE BALDNESS, IM SAYING ITS NOT THE CAUSE. To believe that, you would have to believe that your DHT levels rise as you get older, when its the exact opposite. THEY FALL. The fact that moving follicles from the back to the top and it still growing properly proves that its not a blood flow issue, or an issue with your endocrine system. Its so ****ing simple.
I think whatever causes baldness could have several triggers. I think generally it's genetic things that will trigger the "causes" of baldness, but I also think things like diet, masturbation, sun, whatever whatever could also trigger or inflame whatever the cause of baldness is... I.e. The level pgd2 could be a function of mostly genetics, but also sun, mastrubation, twinkies, whatever... In the end if genetics wants your hair to all of your hair will fall off, but other things could play a part.
08-28-2012 01:28 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
OMG YOU TOOL. WHY DO THEY HAVE A HIGHER 5AR ACTIVITY ONLY ONTOP OF YOUR HEAD???
no idea but they just do, that's just how it is and that's that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
IM NOT ARGUING THAT DHT DOESNT FACILITATE THE BALDNESS, IM SAYING ITS NOT THE CAUSE.
well some people go bald and some don't. Without DHT none of them would go bald. What else are we supposed to do knowing that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
To believe that, you would have to believe that your DHT levels rise as you get older, when its the exact opposite. THEY FALL.
testosterone goes down and estrogen goes up as you age. Both of these make your DHT much more potent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
The fact that moving follicles from the back to the top and it still growing properly proves that its not a blood flow issue, or an issue with your endocrine system. Its so ****ing simple.
who said it was a bloodflow issue? That theory has been debunked decades ago.
endocrine system - could be. Observe how balding people have so much body hair. Obviously in those people DHT metabolism is too high. The problem is not just with your follicles.
why wouldn't hair transplants work? It's the follicles that are being "damaged" and not a particular part of your scalp...
08-28-2012 01:49 PM
youngin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020
no idea but they just do, that's just how it is and that's that..
You're exactly right. You have no idea. No one does. Quit pretending like its a proven fact. Nothing you say makes any damn difference if you cant prove that one thing.
08-28-2012 02:00 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
You're exactly right. You have no idea. No one does. Quit pretending like its a proven fact. Nothing you say makes any damn difference if you cant prove that one thing.
!??!!? it is a fact but you asked why would this happen and I said no idea
Both isoenzymes are increased in the frontal balding follicles compared with the non-balding follicles in the back of the head. DHT levels are also increased in the balding scalp compared with the non-balding scalp. Further women have 3 to 3.5 times less 5-alpha reductase Type I and II than men, which probably accounts for why female AGA is less severe in most cases than with male AGA. Interestingly, individuals born without 5-alph reductase Type II do not develop AGA.
08-28-2012 02:09 PM
youngin
Obviously I know DHT levels are increased in balding scalp. The first study I posted proved that. You're just going in ****ing circles. Nothing you have said proves any reason why the top follicles act differently than the side. "They just do" is not an answer. Like we are just born that way. :eek:
08-28-2012 02:12 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Obviously I know DHT levels are increased in balding scalp. The first study I posted proved that. You're just going in ****ing circles.
you're not even close to proving that sunshine permanently enlarges your sebaceous glands...
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Nothing you have said proves any reason why the top follicles act differently than the side. "They just do" is not an answer. Like we are just born that way. :eek:
they don't!!! all follicles are susceptible to DHT it's just some are more sensitive and some are much less.
08-28-2012 02:15 PM
youngin
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020
they don't!!! all follicles are susceptible to DHT it's just some are more sensitive and some are much less.
Oh here we go again, and WHYYYY are just the top ones more sensitive? WHYYY? You don't know. So shut up.
08-28-2012 02:22 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngin
Oh here we go again, and WHYYYY are just the top ones more sensitive? WHYYY? You don't know. So shut up.
