Spencer, please help us end the debate on Dr. Gho's HST procedure!

I've been a lurker on the hair loss forums for a while now and really appreciate Spencer's work with the Bald Truth. One of the topics that has interested me for the last year or so is the debate surrounding Dr. Gho and his Hair Stem Cell Transplantation (HST) procedure.

Dr. Gho makes two very interesting claims about HST:
1. Donor regeneration between 80%-95%
2. Minimal to no scarring

It is well known that the two biggest drawbacks of traditional hair transplant surgery are the limited donor supply and scarring so the significance of these claims should be very apparent.

Recently, there has been an analysis of BaldTruthTalk poster gc83uk's procedure with Gho that seems fairly compelling and indicates that maybe there is something behind Gho's claims (see Gho- Final Proof?). The results achieved on Dutch celebrities like Wesley Sneijder, Gerard Joling, and Dean Saunders, who have had procedures with Gho, are also interesting based on the minimal scarring and downtime, as well as the results in the recipient area.

Despite this, there is still no consensus on Gho's claims and one of two possibilities remains:
1. The hair transplant industry is ignoring a revolutionary procedure that drastically diminishes the effects of two of the most significant problems associated with hair transplants - limited donor supply and scarring.
2. Gho is misleading a growing number of people and the procedure does not produce the results that he claims.

In either case and regardless of where you stand on Gho and HST, I think it's in everybody's interests to find out if this is true or not.

Spencer is the top consumer advocate in the hair loss industry and seems like the perfect guy to investigate something like this. I do not believe it would be terribly difficult to verify Gho's claims.

What I propose is that Spencer gets in contact with Dr. Gho and/or a prospective patient and gets a 3rd party to scientifically and photographically investigate the donor regeneration and recipient yield. If it's also possible, I would love to see parts of the procedure recorded and/or have another short interview with Gho with more or our questions.

I really believe if actions similar to this are taken, it would settle the debate on Gho/HST once and for all! I really hope Spencer and the posters on this forum get behind this. I would love to hear what everybody thinks and whether you guys have any suggestions etc.

My intention is not to turn this into a debate on HST but rather what needs to be done to prove/disprove Gho's claims and settle the debate once and for all.

I 2nd this.

At this point, Spencer is the only one that can push this forward, or hold it back.


Thank JJJJ for succinctly summarizing the situation and what needs to happen going forward.

Yeah. We need to know one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Follicle Death Row

Yeah. We need to know one way or the other.

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there is nothing to know.

The hairs are regenerating, period. It's practically scarless, period.

What we need to know is why nobody else has adopted the technique

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Originally Posted by Follicle Death Row

Yeah. We need to know one way or the other.

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I'm with this.

I think you should read up on the history of the FUE procedure. There was initially a huge amount of skepticism and resistance to it by some of the very same surgeons that offer it today. Spencer knows this first hand and was actually one of the few and most prominent people at the time who advocated in its favour. So there is clearly a huge precedence here.

Again, my intention is not to turn this thread into a debate on Dr. Gho and HST. There's plenty of threads/posts on here and other forums for that. The whole point of this thread is to find a way to get conclusive proof so that there is no longer a huge debate every time Gho and HST are mentioned. Given the claims Dr. Gho is making, I personally find it unbelievable that there still isn't a consensus on the procedure. I think this is something we can all agree on whether you consider yourself a supporter of Gho's work or not.

Holy shit, i just noticed that Gho/HST spells out ... GHOHST which is really close to GHOST!! It's a trap, i knew it was fake all along, now we just need to call the ghost busters ;)

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Originally Posted by Johny.track131

Holy shit, i just noticed that Gho/HST spells out ... GHOHST which is really close to GHOST!! It's a trap, i knew it was fake all along, now we just need to call the ghost busters ;)

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ghost busters? some ht clinics in the benelux countries called the ghost busters twice.

https://www.reclamecode.nl/webuitspr...D=34179&acCode

and lost twice already.

besides many other factors, some respected and not ht field related medical doctors confirmed the claims of the ghost because the ghost treated their patients and they could observe the procedures as well as results on their own patients.

What ever happened to the online petition we signed to make the industry
aware of Dr. Gho's procedure?

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Originally Posted by NeedHairASAP

HT doc's are making $200,000 to $300,000 a year as is. How much more are they going to make with HST? These doc's are booked up as is-- taking the time and money to offer HST isn't going to help them.

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There are a whole lot of doctors in the world who offer HT services, and they aren't all continually booked up -- only the relative handful with established reputations are. Anyone outside of that handful looking to establish and build their practices could gain a tremendous advantage by offering a supposedly superior technique available virtually nowhere else, and yet they don't. Why do you suppose that is?

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

There are a whole lot of doctors in the world who offer HT services, and they aren't all continually booked up -- only the relative handful with established reputations are. Anyone outside of that handful looking to establish and build their practices could gain a tremendous advantage by offering a supposedly superior technique available virtually nowhere else, and yet they don't. Why do you suppose that is?

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Why weren't these less-established clinics offering FUE 15 years ago? In fact the vast majority of clinics either remained quiet or questioned the procedure! It was not until the procedure was conclusively proven that we began to see a wider level of adoption, a slow process even today.

So this argument "if Gho's claims are true, surgeons would be eager to adopt it" is not a very effective one in my opinion. Just ask Dr. Ray Woods, the original pioneer of FUE, or Spencer Kobren himself who was a part of the whole process. People aren't always open to change.

I'm sure many clinics are also waiting for that conclusive proof before they invest the huge amount of time, money, and effort that is going to be needed to offer HST. The only avenue to learn it really is through Gho and nobody knows what that process is like either.

I think we all want the same thing here though and that's conclusive proof that shows whether HST works or not.

Can someone please tell me in a sentence or two, what it is they need in order to believe there is donor regrowth? I feel like I've missed something.

I think to take the stance of, "if it really worked other Drs would have taken up this by now". That is naive.

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Originally Posted by JJJJrS

Why weren't these less-established clinics offering FUE 15 years ago? It was not until the procedure was conclusively proven that we began to see a wider level of adoption

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But that's the point. Clinics are reluctant to offer a treatment that hasn't been conclusively proved, and clinics aren't offering HST. The logical conclusion is that HST hasn't been conclusively proved, not that there's a vast conspiracy to suppress a superior treatment.

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

But that's the point. Clinics are reluctant to offer a treatment that hasn't been conclusively proved, and clinics aren't offering HST. The logical conclusion is that HST hasn't been conclusively proved, not that there's a vast conspiracy to suppress a superior treatment.

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But it has already been proved hasn't it? :cool:

Perhaps it's not been proven for long enough!!!

Who decides when it has been officially proven?

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

But that's the point. Clinics are reluctant to offer a treatment that hasn't been conclusively proved, and clinics aren't offering HST. The logical conclusion is that HST hasn't been conclusively proved, not that there's a vast conspiracy to suppress a superior treatment.

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how much is the cost of changing to HST?

50k?


no, it is the cost of learning (50k), the cost of living where learn (your guess), and the income you forgoed while learning (year salary= $100,000-300,000), cost of training staff (your guess), cost of getting gho tools etc (your guess),


so the cost of changing to HST:

$500,000+



so...



dismiss HST as long as possible and take in $200,000 salary

vs.

pay $500,000+ and forgo at least a year to learn and implement a completely new biz strategy so you can book a few more surgeries from HST hype?








Unfortunately, doctors take into consideration more than if a procedure works.... these aren't uber -righteous heart surgeons.

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

But that's the point. Clinics are reluctant to offer a treatment that hasn't been conclusively proved, and clinics aren't offering HST. The logical conclusion is that HST hasn't been conclusively proved, not that there's a vast conspiracy to suppress a superior treatment.

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:confused: Why didn't you quote my entire post where I wrote:

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I'm sure many clinics are also waiting for that conclusive proof before they invest the huge amount of time, money, and effort that is going to be needed to offer HST. The only avenue to learn it really is through Gho and nobody knows what that process is like either.

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And isn't that the whole point of this thread? To once and for all, prove/disprove the procedure.

I don't think Spencer would have interviewed him last summer if he knew for a fact the procedure didn't work. I think with varying degrees, we're all in the same boat here and we would all like a definitive answer.

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Originally Posted by NeedHairASAP

dismiss HST as long as possible and take in $200,000 salary vs. pay $500,000+ and forgo at least a year to learn and implement a completely new biz strategy so you can book a few more surgeries from HST hype?

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a) Your dollar figures aren't realistic. Not every hair transplant doctor in the world is already making $200,000 per year, learning the HST technique wouldn't require an HT doctor to entirely forego his practice for a solid year, etc.

b) If HST were truly the superior treatment it's claimed to be, then the return would be well worth the investment, and yet nobody's investing.

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Originally Posted by NeedHairASAP

We want to see if there is a one for one ratio between the hairs in the extracted graph and the hairs that regrow in the donor. For example, Gho extracts a 3 hair graph and puts it in the recipient where it grows 3 hairs.... but does the donor scar heal back to another 3 hair graph?

That is the only question left to answer...

we do know FOR SURE that....

1. Down time is less
2. scarring is less
3. SOMETHING is regenerating in the donor (although it may or may not be a one for one exchange)

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The evidence for what you wrote seems very compelling and I alluded to that in my original post. Even if you're certain that Gho's HST procedure works, this is a perfect opportunity to hear exactly what are the limitations to the procedure, beyond 5-20% of the harvested donor area not regenerating.

As we can see from just the few posts in this thread, the opinions on HST are divided. A lot of clinics and posters do not feel compelled enough by the existing evidence. My hope is that we can remove the debate and start discussing HST in the same way FUE and FUT are discussed today or if the procedure turns out to be a flop, move on.

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Originally Posted by NeedHairASAP

sorry for being rude, but it has been long enough. if you have a weekly hair loss show... what else is there to talk about>? Rassman hair tats? Replicel speculation? what has he been focusing on for the last two months?

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Spencer's done a lot of great things for the hair loss community so I don't think people should be rude to him. We really need his help with all this because he's one of the few guys with the resources, reputation and visibility to pull this off.

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

a) Your dollar figures aren't realistic. Not every hair transplant doctor in the world is already making $200,000 per year, learning the HST technique wouldn't require an HT doctor to entirely forego his practice for a solid year, etc.

b) If HST were truly the superior treatment it's claimed to be, then the return would be well worth the investment, and yet nobody's investing.

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I agree with the first point, I actually think practices could offer HST alongside FUE, just as they offer FUE alongside FUT.

Why do you think nobody is investing? Do you believe they genuinely don't believe the proof which has been shown so far?

And what is your personal opinion on the donor regrowth that we've seen on the macro photos?

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Originally Posted by gc83uk

Why do you think nobody is investing? Do you believe they genuinely don't believe the proof which has been shown so far?

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When Spencer interviewed Dr. Gho last year, Dr. Gho stated that he had a waiting list of "open-minded doctors" who were lining up to learn his technique from him. Where are those doctors?

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

When Spencer interviewed Dr. Gho last year, Dr. Gho stated that he had a waiting list of "open-minded doctors" who were lining up to learn his technique from him. Where are those doctors?

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I honestly don't know, I think this is why we need Spencer again. Can you please answer my question above?

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

a) Your dollar figures aren't realistic. Not every hair transplant doctor in the world is already making $200,000 per year, learning the HST technique wouldn't require an HT doctor to entirely forego his practice for a solid year, etc.

b) If HST were truly the superior treatment it's claimed to be, then the return would be well worth the investment, and yet nobody's investing.

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you have a calculator avatar but you don't seem so great at math... arithmetic or algebra


A surgeon who charges $4 a graft and does two 1,500 graft surgeries per week does 104 surgeries a year and brings in $624,000 dollars in revenue... minus rent for the year and 4 ($80k) technician salaries and he still has way more than $300,000 dollars left over... so the numbers aren't that far off. There are many surgeons doing more than 1,500 graft surgeries at more than two per week and they are charging more than $4 a graft... do the math ($300,000k+++)... thusly why the average is $200,000 to $300,000... $300,000 IS NOT THE MOST


the cost of switching to HST is more than $50k... and with a profit margin like the one I explained above, why bother with HST? ignoring it is much more profitable (and less stressful).


This is the same situation as FUE and the same situation as THE RADIO

RCA had a TV ready to go in the 1930s... however they were still selling radios at a record pace so.... what'd they do? They kept selling radios and waited until the 1940s to release TVs.
(did TVs not work? would it not have been profitable to sell TVs? were they not sold because they were proven?)



this is how the world works... sorry you guys aren't seeing the connections here. Many things can hinder technological progress, one of which is current profitability.


let me know where I'm wrong

and also let me know when Spencer will start to advocate for us instead of his social-media-HT-surgeon website. If you guys think the chicken advertiser is going to all the sudden admit beef is better..... don't hold your breath




Question: if new technologies make so much business sense then why are current HT doctors doing what they do instead of researching full time? hmmmm

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Originally Posted by gmonasco

a) Your dollar figures aren't realistic. Not every hair transplant doctor in the world is already making $200,000 per year, learning the HST technique wouldn't require an HT doctor to entirely forego his practice for a solid year, etc.

.

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Average Salary
The average salary of transplant surgeons varies by location. According to Salary Expert's survey of transplant surgeons' salaries in 10 major U.S. cities, average salaries ranged from as low as $219,254 per year in Houston to as high as $468,144 per year in Dallas. Those working in other major cities such as New York and Los Angeles made salaries of $396,951 and $435,741, respectively. The Bureau of Labor Statistics indicates that the average salary of all surgeons was considerably less at $225,390 per year.



Read more: The Salary of Hair Transplant Surgeons | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_8733011_sal...#ixzz1tSebp7jB



So there is quite a bit of money at stake here.... similar to FUE... and the radio... but what do I know

Gho and his clinic are honestly too shady for my liking. With his history I doubt I could ever just "forget the past" and pay him for any kind of hair restoration procedure.

I'd love to see this regeneration breakthrough happen, but I'm not convinced from what I've seen so far, and the fact that it's Gho makes it all the more suspect. Sorry guys.

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Originally Posted by 25 going on 65

but I'm not convinced from what I've seen so far, and the fact that it's Gho makes it all the more suspect. Sorry guys.

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True, we've only seen obvious examples of regrowth from GC and a peer reviewed journal...

I think it would cost more than 50k, but probably not the sums your talking.

Gho would visit the new practise as he said, so it would take no time to learn. Plus it could be offered alongside FUE, but HST would be marketed as superior but also more expensive vs the cheaper no donor regrowth.

There are people who simply don't care about donor regrowth, so the cheaper FUE would still be available.

On a side note, I don't know why I can't get an answer to my relatively straight forward questions, posted earlier!

I appreciate gc's efforts but they don't convince me that I can go to Europe right now and get a quality HT while regenerating most of my donor. Based on what I've seen so far I definitely wouldn't pay money for it.
I understand why others are more optimistic but I can't share in their positivity (yet).

I freely admit that part of my suspicion is due to the source. Gho has burned this community before and I now approach his marketing and claims with extra skepticism, the same way I approach Gary Hitzig and ACELL for example. (A history of bad results, especially disfigurement, is THE biggest red flag for me in this industry--not just when it comes to skill but also ethics.)

I could be wrong and would prefer if I was. I wish good luck to anyone who tries the procedure.

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Originally Posted by 25 going on 65

Gho and his clinic are honestly too shady for my liking.

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What's Gho's history?

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Originally Posted by 25 going on 65

I freely admit that part of my suspicion is due to the source. Gho has burned this community before and I now approach his marketing and claims with extra skepticism

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But shouldn't this be more of a reason to support this initiative? If you truly believe that Dr. Gho is deceiving people, then something like this is the perfect opportunity to expose that.

That's why I don't understand why anybody would be against this. The only ones who should oppose this are those who don't want the truth about this procedure to come out.

All Spencer has to do is get in contact with Gho and/or one of his patients. Get a 3rd party to examine the percentage of donor regeneration and recipient yield, and the debate on HST is over.

Does Spencer get involved with this stuff?

I mean I don't really know what he does on a day to day basis?

JJJJ: Nothing is wrong with your idea. I have a habit of jumping around on this forum and replying to the latest posts in a thread instead of minding the original post, so I apologize for getting off track.

Kirby: Gho advertised hair multiplication starting in the early 2000's. It didn't actually work, the results were cosmetically poor, and the clinic went bankrupt.
HST is a different procedure that he started performing in the last several years at a new clinic. Some feel it's the real deal this time, but I am still skeptical as of right now.
Let me emphasize that I'm not a doctor nor do I have any special information about this clinic or procedure. It is possible that it works, but I felt compelled to leave my perspective, so there you have it.
In all seriousness I hope it works, since it would address one of my biggest concerns about hair transplantation (donor supply).

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Originally Posted by 25 going on 65

I appreciate gc's efforts but they don't convince me that I can go to Europe right now and get a quality HT while regenerating most of my donor. Based on what I've seen so far I definitely wouldn't pay money for it.
I understand why others are more optimistic but I can't share in their positivity (yet).

I freely admit that part of my suspicion is due to the source. Gho has burned this community before and I now approach his marketing and claims with extra skepticism, the same way I approach Gary Hitzig and ACELL for example. (A history of bad results, especially disfigurement, is THE biggest red flag for me in this industry--not just when it comes to skill but also ethics.)

I could be wrong and would prefer if I was. I wish good luck to anyone who tries the procedure.

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thats a fair assessment. now please produce an example of Gho "disfiguring" somebody.

I don't know. It's a tough one. For sure it would get ugly again and there would be legal action. Tough one for Spencer really. If Gho could do it, it would be in his best interest to do a show case result putting 2300 up top every 9 months. I'd like them to figure this out but I'm leaning towards "real phenomenon but awful consistency in practice." I just get this horrible feeling that he's proven that it is can be done but it's much less effort to just split follicles and give a patient 6-7000 grafts over 3 or 4 procedures. Please let me be wrong.

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Originally Posted by sausage

Does Spencer get involved with this stuff?

I mean I don't really know what he does on a day to day basis?

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Who else can we really contact other than a top consumer advocate in the hair loss industry? I can't think of many more worthwhile things a consumer advocate in the hair loss industry can do than investigate HST. Either the hair transplant industry is ignoring a revolutionary treatment or a growing number of people are getting deceived.

In the end, we all want to know whether HST works. But most of us don't have the resources, contacts, and visibility to really make a difference. Surely Spencer must be able to help in some way, give suggestions etc.

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Originally Posted by NeedHairASAP

CVAZBAR is literally spencer's biggest fan. hence why his comment involves implying that Gho may still not be the answer.

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You've been on my nuts too much. You are too sensitive when it cones to Gho. You need a life asap, forget hair. Why are you so worried about others? Go get it done already and shut up. How many times do people have to explain the same shit to you?

Would i rather listen to Spencer or a goon like you?

Speaking of Spencer, he said the same thing today. There isn't enough proof FOR HIM. Why don't you call Spencer and explain your cry. Bring your daddy Gho as well so we can end this and hopefully you can stop whining.

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Originally Posted by CVAZBAR

You've been on my nuts too much. You are too sensitive when it cones to Gho. You need a life asap, forget hair. Why are you so worried about others? Go get it done already and shut up. How many times do people have to explain the same shit to you?

Would i rather listen to Spencer or a goon like you?

Speaking of Spencer, he said the same thing today. There isn't enough proof FOR HIM. Why don't you call Spencer and explain your cry. Bring your daddy Gho as well so we can end this and hopefully you can stop whining.

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I give up with yall

good luck with histogen

Why on earth are you people demanding anything from Spencer when it comes to Gho? Do you really think he has some sort of control over what doctors choose to do in their practices. He had Gho on his program, I heard him say tonight that Gho’s hair transplants look good. He also said that any FUE doctor would love to do Gho’s procedure if in fact it works consistently and the he hopes it does work, but he has zero control over whether people adopt it or not. Even if he tells every doctor in the world that it works this will not make these doctors do it if they don't want to. You guys are too much. Spencer is just a man, he has no control over what the doctors do!

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Originally Posted by NeedHairASAP

I give up with yall

good luck with histogen

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Good luck with Histogen? That doesn't even make sense. It's not a competition. You think I care? I want everything to work!!!! Why are you trying to convince me? You need to convince the HT industry, not me. I made it clear to you in the past that I have nothing against Gho. I even said I would consider him if I ever decided to get a HT. I don't know what beef you have with me but you are trying to convince the wrong person. Am I preventing you from doing the procedure? No, so what's the problem. Youre are confused. I'm not Spencer. Convince the "experts", not me.

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Originally Posted by 534623

this photo shows what kobren couldn't believe 13 years ago.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/...e-dots-FUE.jpg

this photo shows what i can see today.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/...rence-area.jpg

do i need any consumer advocate to see things with my own eyes? no.

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I'm not Spencer. I'm not an expert.

I'm going to Gho