Inconclusive rant about finasteride, DHT reduction and ways to control it.

I have taken my first dose of finasteride the last friday. I took 0.3mg at night. The second dose, again of about 0.3mg, i took the next monday. By considering taking a third dose thursday I have noticed the following:

My light, yet constant acne disappeared instantly, as did my excess sebum. Before finasteride i would wash my face with plain water every 12 hours and every time i could feel my scalp and areas of my face oily to the touch before washing. After taking finasteride my skin has been dry and spotless even without washing.

At the same time my sleep has been ruined. Since the next day from the first dose even if i sleep properly all night, for 8-9 hours, i wake up with a bad feeling in my head and get assaulted by waves of sleepiness during the whole day, a pretty crippling condition. Apparently this is caused by inhibition of certain corticosteroids produced by the enzyme finasteride blocks. It seems it's interfering with my REM phases. Wednesday night has been much better, albeit a little of the bad effect remains. Has this happened to others? If so, has it gone away with prolonged usage?

I won't be taking another dose of finasteride for at least a week since the last one, since not even my hair, which currently surpasses my navel in length and thus covers my NW2, is worth feeling horrible all day.

My regimen idea was taken from this thread: http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1170

Since my excess sebum and hairloss at a young age (23) are clearly proof of excess DHT, which i presumably don't need, i would like to "trim" it just enough to have at the very least normal sebum levels, if not my hair.

According to the graphic on that thread a dose of 0.3 mg every third-fourth day or sixth day should keep my plasma DHT reduction at around 20% from the starting point... unfortunately this isn't supported by other research, from which i quote:

"Scalp skin DHT levels declined significantly by 13.0% with placebo and by 14.9%, 61.6%, 56. 5%, 64.1%, and 69.4% with 0.01, 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg doses of finasteride, respectively. Serum DHT levels declined significantly (P <.001) by 49.5%, 68.6%, 71.4%, and 72.2% in the 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg finasteride treatment groups, respectively."

We can see how this last research notes a fairly flat response curve even for doses as small as 0.01mg. I have found confirmation of this last data set from the finasteride FDA testing. It clearly contradicts the previous graph. If this is true we have practically no way to "control" the amount of DHT we reduce, just the time this reduction is effective for (if even that). From this simple point i believe many of the side effects could be prevented by a more contained DHT reduction finasteride clearly can't provide, but which could benefit a wider range of users and prevent the formation of side effects.

The golden point for finasteride seems instead to be the 0.05mg mark. Something obtainable only through dissolution of pills in ethanol, i believe. If the first graph has any validity then a dose close to 0.05 (0.04) would exhaust its efficacy after around 6 days compared to the higher lasting effect of higher doses. Since DHT accumulates around follicles over time, it wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing. Consider that despite the short time finasteride remains in the blood (a few hours) the inhibiting effect it exhibits lasts up to a week and more. Regardless of the graph's validity this can easily be confirmed through user experience. It means byproducts of the drug remain in the blood for that time, increasing their concentration in the blood with every dose (the previous doses' byproducts summed with the newly ingested ones). As far as i know the human endocrine system doesn't need a week to crank out appropriate quantities of a needed hormone, therefore if 1mg of the drug can remain in the bloostream for a week, then at the end of the first week your bloodstream will contain finasteride byproducts from 7 doses and remain constant at such level from then on.

The point of my argument is that dht blocking could indeed be a simple solution to hair loss and a few other excess DHT-induced issues like acne, if only we had a medication that allowed us to actually control DHT levels instead of bringing them down by almost 70% regardless of dosage administered. After all, many cases of MPB in young sufferers seem to me to derive from a relatively modest excess of DHT and not early follicular hypersensitivity to it.
In few words, we may actually benefit from a less potent inhibitor.

To this regard these studies are fairly popular: http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/7/1109.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683253/

The simple conclusion is that elevated quantities of certain components of tea (mostly black tea apparently) have a fairly high DHT reduction effect, comparable with finasteride. If this is true, perhaps regulating the amount of black tea extract ingested could help us achieve better control with our DHT reduction and make this treatment method more effective... albeit such a solution seems too good to be true.

Other DHT blockers, such as saw palmetto, seem to show quite contradictory results in tests and are more likely to be just marketed "fads", in my opinion.

I hope someone experienced with DHT blocking in general can provide some input about the topic, especially if i am misled by my assumptions.

TL;DR:
-Finasteride inhibits overall DHT by a fairly "set" value: ~60-70%
-MPB in young men seems often (mostly?) caused by excess DHT (when coupled with acne, for instance)
-Young men could benefit from a more modest DHT inhibition compared to finasteride.
-Black tea extract or other DHT inhibitors could offer a healthier and more manageable DHT reduction, to bring DHT to "normal levels" in young men, thus producing less side effects and risks of endocrine system crash.

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Originally Posted by Aston

After all, many cases of MPB in young sufferers seem to me to derive from a relatively modest excess of DHT and not early follicular hypersensitivity to it.
In few words, we may actually benefit from a less potent inhibitor.

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Hi Aston, looks like you've done your homework and I applaud that.

Just to pick up on one point that I've highlighted in my quote, regarding young MPB sufferers with relatively modest excess DHT. I have my own theory relating to side effects that might tie in here. I noticed that most of the studies investigating the safety of Propecia did not include men with hair loss confined to the hair line.

Do you think it's possible that men with relatively modest excess DHT (and therefore modest hair loss) may be more susceptible to side effects as a consequence of taking Propecia? This idea has been pretty much dismissed as "weak" on this forum, but it seems quite plausible to me and would explain the disparity between the number of men coming forward with side effects and the figures quoted from the studies.

Thanks for your research and keep it up.

Further question, I don't suppose you have any ideas or theories on how to "fix" people who have suffered from side effects? So far I'm just waiting it out (3 months on), but I guess I'm gonna have to get some tests done if things don't improve soon.

Black tea is no good for MPB. If it was, barely anyone in England would be balding. :(

This is all very interesting to me. I'm not on Finasteride currently but likely will be in the future. I was initially planning to take small doses after reading they reduce DHT levels almost as much as 1mg+. I realised however that due to the drugs short half-life after 24 hours I would not have enough of the drug in my body for it to reduce enough DHT. (?)

I then decided on the plausible transition theory even though I feel that maybe you should not really go on Fin if you're fearing or expecting sides. From what I understand now though 1mg every 5-7 days would have an equal effect in combating MPB as 1mg ED? How is this information not more "out there"? Surely some people must have tried this and we'd know whether or not it's as effective.

I also have a vested interest in all things concerning the correlation between DHT, sebum/acne and MPB. I'm going to consult a dermatologist regarding these matters soon, hopefully he'll have some knowledge about these things.

I doubt it's the actual sebum which causes the hair loss which some people seem to claim but rather the excess or sensitivity to DHT that causes both the overproduction of sebum and the hair loss.

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Originally Posted by BaldinLikeBaldwin

I feel that maybe you should not really go on Fin if you're fearing or expecting sides. From what I understand now though 1mg every 5-7 days would have an equal effect in combating MPB as 1mg ED? How is this information not more "out there"? Surely some people must have tried this and we'd know whether or not it's as effective.

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I'd like to debunk this one. Although people think I'm now very anti-Propecia, all I've actually done is describe my experiences on the drug. If that makes me anti-Propecia, so be it. However, I didn't start taking the drug fearing or expecting side effects; they just happened. Before taking it I thought the risks were negligible and worth it anyway. I was pretty positive until I noticed serious problems associated with my libido. To be honest I think I was even in denial for quite some time (such was my attitude taking it!), until one day I realised I wasn't the same person anymore and quit cold turkey.

I think it's reassuring for many to say that people bring the side effects upon themselves somehow and it's "all in their heads", but it's far from reality in my experience.

Quite simply, side effects are a consequence of taking a drug that alters the hormones in your body and they are persistent if you're particularly unlucky. I'm sure many people read this and think "blah blah blah, I was fine so this is bs", but everyone is different and you really have to be open minded about this.

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Originally Posted by chrisis

I'd like to debunk this one. Although people think I'm now very anti-Propecia, all I've actually done is describe my experiences on the drug. If that makes me anti-Propecia, so be it. However, I didn't start taking the drug fearing or expecting side effects; they just happened. Before taking it I thought the risks were negligible and worth it anyway. I was pretty positive until I noticed serious problems associated with my libido. To be honest I think I was even in denial for quite some time (such was my attitude taking it!), until one day I realised I wasn't the same person anymore and quit cold turkey.

I think it's reassuring for many to say that people bring the side effects upon themselves somehow and it's "all in their heads", but it's far from reality in my experience.

Quite simply, side effects are a consequence of taking a drug that alters the hormones in your body and they are persistent if you're particularly unlucky. I'm sure many people read this and think "blah blah blah, I was fine so this is bs", but everyone is different and you really have to be open minded about this.

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Fair play but I hope my post didn't come across as me believing that side effects will only occur if you believe they will, I know you can have them regardless.

What I meant was I don't think any good can come from expecting side effects, i.e. the nocebo effect. Obviously it's necessary to know they may occur and if they do as you mentioned not be in denial of them.

ive been bumping samjone's post on how he solved his side effects post for a long time, why dont you try it? Here it is again

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15913872

Use the link above and see for yourself. Claritan (Loratadine) has been clinically determined to solve erectile dysfunction in men. I suffered from sexual dysfunction for many years after discontinuing propecia and stumbled upon this by accident. I tried Claritan for an allergy and the next day I noticed that I had regained full erectile function. Try it please and never give up hope.

Take some Claritan chrisis and come back and thank samjone for his discovery, i'm actually reading up on some studies. weird thing is, his 'healing' was the next day, no waiting time. And probably not placebo cause he didnt even expect it from what i undestand. If you try it and your johnson's fully revived then you would have proved samjone's post and 'propecia help' will be no more. i sound optimistic, but why the hell wouldnt i?!

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Originally Posted by Johny.track131

ive been bumping samjone's post on how he solved his side effects post for a long time, why dont you try it? Here it is again

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15913872

Use the link above and see for yourself. Claritan (Loratadine) has been clinically determined to solve erectile dysfunction in men. I suffered from sexual dysfunction for many years after discontinuing propecia and stumbled upon this by accident. I tried Claritan for an allergy and the next day I noticed that I had regained full erectile function. Try it please and never give up hope.

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Interesting link there. I notice the study mentions SSRIs: I took Seroxat and Prozac over the courses of three years, and TBH I found they reduced my libido far more than Propecia has, in my personal subjective experience.

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Originally Posted by Kirby_

Interesting link there. I notice the study mentions SSRIs: I took Seroxat and Prozac over the courses of three years, and TBH I found they reduced my libido far more than Propecia has, in my personal subjective experience.

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Me too. I have been on and off SSRI's twice in my life. I'm not totally sure about the first time, but the second type I tried seemed to give me pretty strong sexual sides. I noticed within a week of starting the drug, and when I quit it all came surging back. I won't get into detail but it was like my body was trying to make up for lost time.
Sometimes I wonder if the SSRI and finasteride had any kind of synergistic effect. I didn't notice these sides on fin alone, but that antidepressant sure did a number on me. Now I feel fine.
Come to think of it, I once was on something like a 4-week regimen of anti-anxiety medicine, and that stuff seemed to mess with my sex drive pretty badly as well. These psych meds are no joke.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how you look at it) many of the people having longer-term side effects from fin probably aren't on these types of drugs at all.

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Originally Posted by chrisis

Do you think it's possible that men with relatively modest excess DHT (and therefore modest hair loss) may be more susceptible to side effects as a consequence of taking Propecia? This idea has been pretty much dismissed as "weak" on this forum, but it seems quite plausible to me and would explain the disparity between the number of men coming forward with side effects and the figures quoted from the studies.

Thanks for your research and keep it up.

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That seems to be the case to me. Just reading through user experiences on propeciahelp.com it does indeed seem younger people tend to be affected more and there is even a doctor testimony which focuses on how finasteride is bad for "young men". (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/vi...php?f=8&t=4391 )
As for the reason, i really don't know. It seems MPB has slightly different mechanisms for younger men (excess testosterone?) and older men (increased androgen receptor sensitivity?)

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Originally Posted by chrisis

Further question, I don't suppose you have any ideas or theories on how to "fix" people who have suffered from side effects? So far I'm just waiting it out (3 months on), but I guess I'm gonna have to get some tests done if things don't improve soon.

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propeciahelp.com has a lot of theories. Unfortunately the best i can do is analyze existing research, of which there is none for the so called post-finasteride syndrome.

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Originally Posted by BaldinLikeBaldwin

This is all very interesting to me. I'm not on Finasteride currently but likely will be in the future. I was initially planning to take small doses after reading they reduce DHT levels almost as much as 1mg+. I realised however that due to the drugs short half-life after 24 hours I would not have enough of the drug in my body for it to reduce enough DHT. (?)

I then decided on the plausible transition theory even though I feel that maybe you should not really go on Fin if you're fearing or expecting sides. From what I understand now though 1mg every 5-7 days would have an equal effect in combating MPB as 1mg ED? How is this information not more "out there"? Surely some people must have tried this and we'd know whether or not it's as effective.

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The information is out there. The first link in my first post redirects to a page quoting pretty old research (1991 i think?) in which it is mentioned that finasteride binds with the enzyme in question to inhibit it. This bound product then is inactivated and can't exercise its function for its lifetime. The organism produces new functioning enzyme progressively, however it seems it takes over a week to return to full normality.

The problem is, we don't know whether its healthier to take big doses every day or not. A smaller dose is not necessarily better. Taking 1mg daily ensures your DHT level is flattened and stays that way. Presumably that is the most stable condition for the organism compared to making your DHT jump up and down with small doses and waiting weeks between each of them. It may very well do the same for your hair, but hurt your organism in the process. In fact, most people who experience permanent side effects experience them after quitting the drug, which means their organism "crashes" because of the inability to cope with the sudden change in hormone levels.

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Originally Posted by Kirby_

Black tea is no good for MPB. If it was, barely anyone in England would be balding. :(

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I have a small, wild theory about this. I have drunk black tea every day since i was too young to remember it. Big mugs, 0,5l (15-16 oz or so) per day, maybe twice a day. Presumably many people around the world have, especially England. Doesn't it mean that our DHT got blocked to a degree since we were kids, especially through puberty, easily for over ten years? Couldn't it then be that our body is either immune to black tea consumption, (the same way it builds immunity to finasteride after a few years), or worse, that the constant inhibition of black tea has actually caused the excess in the first place, as a response to constant inhibition? It would be enough to see if many young MPB sufferers with excess sebum production are actually heavy black tea drinkers...

It's interesting to note the case of india, which consumes both big quantities of black tea and soy (another alleged DHT blocker):

http://www.slideshare.net/tejinderbh...ographic-study

Their hair loss seems to be even worse than in the west?

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Originally Posted by BaldinLikeBaldwin

I also have a vested interest in all things concerning the correlation between DHT, sebum/acne and MPB. I'm going to consult a dermatologist regarding these matters soon, hopefully he'll have some knowledge about these things.

I doubt it's the actual sebum which causes the hair loss which some people seem to claim but rather the excess or sensitivity to DHT that causes both the overproduction of sebum and the hair loss.

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My dermatologist prescribed me propecia with a smile, with just a glance to my hair, so i wouldn't really rely on them. They are paid to treat you, not to research into the treatments.

The question of androgen receptor sensitivity is mysterious to me. I have experienced a slight excess of body hair growth, excess of sebum and MPB. Does this mean that my androgen receptors in my entire body suddenly increased their sensitivity when i hit 20? Yet MPB, by its definition (male "pattern" balding), seems to point to a very localized modification of androgen receptor sensitivity.
Also, as far as I know, men with MPB have Low testosterone. This appears to mean their 5a reductase enzyme is transforming too much of it into DHT.
The pattern looks therefore like this to me: many men have an innate androgen receptor sensitivity to DHT, which may or may not appear early, but ultimately the cause of hair loss in an early age, as well as excess sebum, is the overproduction of DHT. I have of course no proof to assert this and may well be wrong, but that seems to be emerging pattern from the data i have (which is definitely not good enough to formulate actual theories.)

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Originally Posted by Johny.track131

Use the link above and see for yourself. Claritan (Loratadine) has been clinically determined to solve erectile dysfunction in men. I suffered from sexual dysfunction for many years after discontinuing propecia and stumbled upon this by accident. I tried Claritan for an allergy and the next day I noticed that I had regained full erectile function. Try it please and never give up hope.

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I could give it a try but to be honest, I don't have a problem with erections really, I just lack sensitivity that I had before. It's frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Aston

That seems to be the case to me. Just reading through user experiences on propeciahelp.com it does indeed seem younger people tend to be affected more and there is even a doctor testimony which focuses on how finasteride is bad for "young men".

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If this is the case then it really is a big deal!!!

It also highlights failings in the methodology of Merck's trials. It's hard to believe that people city a study conducted in Japan to prove Propecia's safety, considering MPB is an inherited trait. I'm no scientist but anyone with a reasonable IQ can deduce that such a study is inadequate!

Got nothin to lose chrisis, try it out and tell us if the sensation fully comes back :)

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Originally Posted by Johny.track131

Got nothin to lose chrisis, try it out and tell us if the sensation fully comes back :)

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Started taking one a day, Loratadine generic 10mg. Reckon that's enough? I'll report back if it does anything.

Is it the same as claritan? sorry, didnt research alot, i'm just going by samjone's post and some studies i looked at.

And Good luck man! :)

Yeah the active ingredient is the same - loratadine.

Cheers, had a pretty good day today but could just be coincidental so will see how I am over the week.

how's everything chrisis?

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Originally Posted by Johny.track131

how's everything chrisis?

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Last couple days have been better! It's probably too soon to jump to a conclusion though.

That's a positive mate. Keep us updated, I've been following your posts, hope it does the trick for you.

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Originally Posted by Jcm800

That's a positive mate. Keep us updated, I've been following your posts, hope it does the trick for you.

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Hoping the same here man! Good luck Chrisis! Oh small question by better do you mean as a general feeling (Happiness) or as claritan's hopeful theraputic effect towards sensation in your case?

It's early days but I feel like the sensation is returning. I don't want to say it's been a success yet, and even if everything is back to normal I guess it doesn't necessarily mean it was the Clarityn/loratadine, although it's very compelling...

Thanks for the well wishes.

Anytime. Let's hope it's the claritan, cause you might just now prove a cure for all of those poor souls on propecia help. Also, i don't know how to get to conpecia's profile but i remember reading a post of his saying that he's one of the unlucky people who got permanent sides like samjone the original finder of this idea, if you can contact him and persuade him to try this as well it would be great. Especially of both of you get results! :D

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Originally Posted by chrisis

.....and would explain the disparity between the number of men coming forward with side effects and the figures quoted from the studies.

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we're not doing this again....

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Originally Posted by 2020

we're not doing this again....

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Then don't.

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Originally Posted by 2020

we're not doing this again....

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Also that post is over a month old so you might want to get with the program.

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Originally Posted by chrisis

Also that post is over a month old so you might want to get with the program.

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Good to know chrisis, i told you it would take a long time. It seems to me you had low DHT to begin with that's why you had some bad side effects.

From what i've researched the higher your DHT levels, the quicker your recovery from side effects.

My recovery took days or weeks maybe(I didn't test my peckerwood within that period of time lol) because my DHT levels are pretty high.

I will try .5mg though, i had no sides at that those.

Good luck man ! Very happy for you.

any news chrisis? i should stop asking everyday right? :P (Just too excited if this works)

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Originally Posted by Maradona

Good to know chrisis, i told you it would take a long time. It seems to me you had low DHT to begin with that's why you had some bad side effects.

From what i've researched the higher your DHT levels, the quicker your recovery from side effects.

My recovery took days or weeks maybe(I didn't test my peckerwood within that period of time lol) because my DHT levels are pretty high.

I will try .5mg though, i had no sides at that those.

Good luck man ! Very happy for you.

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This is why I think all guys should get their hormone levels checked before going on fin. There are a lot of guys that are borderline cases and fin will end up screwing them.

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Originally Posted by WashedOut

This is why I think all guys should get their hormone levels checked before going on fin. There are a lot of guys that are borderline cases and fin will end up screwing them.

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Thanks Maradona and WashedOut. There are a lot of sensible opinions coming out of the woodwork. Maybe there's hope after all.

I too agree that getting your hormone levels checked is a good idea before going on finasteride. Safety first, right! It would be good if we could establish that somehow as recommended protocol generally.

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Originally Posted by chrisis

Thanks Maradona and WashedOut. There are a lot of sensible opinions coming out of the woodwork. Maybe there's hope after all.

I too agree that getting your hormone levels checked is a good idea before going on finasteride. Safety first, right! It would be good if we could establish that somehow as recommended protocol generally.

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chris, did you actually take PROPECIA as prescribed by your doctor or you just bought fin from some offshore lab?

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Originally Posted by 2020

chris, did you actually take PROPECIA as prescribed by your doctor or you just bought fin from some offshore lab?

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I bought the generic stuff. It's the same active ingredient.

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Originally Posted by chrisis

I bought the generic stuff. It's the same active ingredient.

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oh I know that, but if you were to go through a doctor(LIKE EVERYONE SHOULD) you would actually have someone to complain to! There is a reason why this drug is PRESCRIPTION ONLY.

you bought a PRESCRIPTION ONLY drug on your own and now you bash Merck about your problems? hmm... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 2020

oh I know that, but if you were to go through a doctor(LIKE EVERYONE SHOULD) you would actually have someone to complain to! There is a reason why this drug is PRESCRIPTION ONLY.

you bought a PRESCRIPTION ONLY drug on your own and now you bash Merck about your problems? hmm... :rolleyes:

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Pretty sure most people on this site just say buy it generic, but yeah, go with whatever argument you need to fall back on to suit your cause. I did get a prescription, by the way.

Merck is ultimately responsible for the drug, since it is their patented drug that they tested and put to the FDA. They should have tested it more rigorously, and the warnings were insufficient - thus the recent revisions of labels etc.

Who else should I blame?

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Originally Posted by chrisis

Pretty sure most people on this site just say buy it generic, but yeah, go with whatever argument you need to fall back on to suit your cause. I did get a prescription, by the way.

Merck is ultimately responsible for the drug, since it is their patented drug that they tested and put to the FDA. They should have tested it more rigorously, and the warnings were insufficient - thus the recent revisions of labels etc.

Who else should I blame?

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if you did get a prescription, then why don't you complain about your "experience" with Propecia to your doctor? He's the one who GAVE IT TO YOU! In his mind, you were supposed to be okay.

Am I wrong?

If you decided to take a PRESCRIPTION ONLY drug ON YOUR OWN then YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!
No one is supposed to take this drug without consulting about it to a real doctor!

So if you take claritin and it resolves your issue does that mean you have to keep taking claritin forever? Wish more guys who are suffering would try this out and report results. It could be a big deal.

Have you even read what doctors have said to sufferers? They don't understand the side effects, they don't want to know and they don't know how to fix it anyway.

Everyone understands your position on this topic 2020, so now kindly butt out. We're making some interesting progress on this subject without people like you sticking their oar in unhelpfully.

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Originally Posted by WashedOut

So if you take claritin and it resolves your issue does that mean you have to keep taking claritin forever? Wish more guys who are suffering would try this out and report results. It could be a big deal.

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I'd like to know this too. I've been on it for 4-5 days now and wondering if I keep going forever or it has resolved my problem.... Scared to quit now in case I mess up my progress.