maybe they had low DHT and low T to begin with.... finasteride has side effects just like any other drug. The numbers are correct. If you got side effects, you are part of those 3%. Deal with it
hormone levels fluctuate between individuals.
so i dont think this matters at all, if they had low tesosterone/dht levels then they would have had equally/balanced sensitive adnrogen receptors to maintain the status quo i.e homeostasis.
if they had highly sensitive andorgen receptors they probably would have a low dht/testosterone profile but this does not mean they would have erectile dysfunction based on their natrual low test/dht profile, the body would maintain the balance.
the key with propecia is the dosage, you need to find the right balance for yourself. the recomended dosage by merck is overkill and it is this, they need to revise.
there are plenty of people suffering sides from propecia dn there probably an equal number of people probably not suffering sides...right now, as it stands going on propecia is a gamble.
05-13-2012 06:18 PM
Aston
Quote:
Originally Posted by clandestine
Aston; how are you fairing with the modified dosage?
My progression:
at start: aged 22, good libido, some acne (very oily skin), slow hair loss (NW2), very deep sleep
Day1: 0,3125mg (1st dose)
Day2: sleep issues (sleeping but waking up horribly tired)
Day3: sleep issues, Skin sebum feels entirely gone, previous acne healing
Day4: 0,3125mg (2st dose), sleep issues
Day5: sleep issues
Day6: sleep issues, acne gone, excess skin sebum gone
Day7: sleep issues get progressively better
---decided to wait one week before next dose---
Day14: 0,150mg
Day15: restless, but good sleep, acne still gone
Day16: good sleep (not as deep as before fin)
Day17: 0,150mg, good sleep
Day18: -today-
The lack of oil on my skin and scalp makes me think my DHT was kept fairly low despite the low doses and the 1 week pause. Will return to 0,3125mg at the next dose. No effect whatsoever on libido or anything else for now, but it's early for that, apparently.
05-13-2012 06:45 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aston
The numbers are correct for the tested population and represent an average, which is subject to errors in application.
what do you mean by that? There has been at least a dozen studies and all of them report very similar percentage numbers.
So either all of those studies are flawed or correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aston
Also, balding men in their twenties reportedly all have low T and high DHT. Either their 5a reductase enzyme is too active (current theory) or their SBHG production is impaired.
citation needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aston
Unfortunately we do not posses enough data to assert anything and we should therefore stay open to the possibility.
it has been 20 years.... it has been tested for both BPH and MPB patients. We have plenty of data.
05-13-2012 06:48 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by gutted
the key with propecia is the dosage, you need to find the right balance for yourself. the recomended dosage by merck is overkill and it is this, they need to revise.
you do realize that Proscar that has a 5 times bigger dose that Propecia has a similar safety profile.... dosage is nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gutted
there are plenty of people suffering sides from propecia dn there probably an equal number of people probably not suffering sides...right now, as it stands going on propecia is a gamble.
study after study after study after study..... 20 years in the game AND EVERY SINGLE STUDY COMES UP WITH THE SAME RESULTS. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?
05-13-2012 07:23 PM
Aston
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020
what do you mean by that? There has been at least a dozen studies and all of them report very similar percentage numbers.
So either all of those studies are flawed or correct.
The only test i know of which has tested a high number of men (>1000) for a medium period of time (5 years) is the one that got finasteride FDA approval. No long term studies exist. Most short term studies focus on men with BPH. As we speak studies are being conducted on possible side effects from finasteride, though. We'll have a better picture eventually, but the scientific community is taking this seriously.
Quote:
citation needed
Wikipedia's page on Androgenic Alopecia:
"Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher levels of 5-alpha-reductase, lower levels of total testosterone, higher levels of unbound/free testosterone, and higher levels of total free androgens including DHT.[15][16]"
Quote:
it has been 20 years.... it has been tested for both BPH and MPB patients. We have plenty of data.
We don't even have a clear idea of how erections operate, how can we be sure of what can inhibit or damage them? I'm afraid you're underestimating the complexity of the subject.
05-13-2012 07:36 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aston
The only test i know of which has tested a high number of men (>1000) for a medium period of time (5 years) is the one that got finasteride FDA approval. No long term studies exist. Most short term studies focus on men with BPH. As we speak studies are being conducted on possible side effects from finasteride, though. We'll have a better picture eventually, but the scientific community is taking this seriously.
There are more than enough studies done about this drug! Seriously, this is the most disputed drug of all time!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aston
Wikipedia's page on Androgenic Alopecia:
"Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher levels of 5-alpha-reductase, lower levels of total testosterone, higher levels of unbound/free testosterone, and higher levels of total free androgens including DHT.[15][16]"
yes.... and? Why only some of them get side effects?
We don't even have a clear idea of how erections operate, how can we be sure of what can inhibit or damage them? I'm afraid you're underestimating the complexity of the subject.
and you think they weren't checking for erectile dysfunctions in their studies!?!? Erectile dysfunction would be considered a serious side effects yet somehow the occurrence of such side effects is very low
05-13-2012 07:56 PM
clandestine
2020; seems as if you have a vested interest in defending propecia against claims regarding sexual dysfunction. That's fine.
"[...]blinded administration of finasteride was associated with a significantly higher proportion of sexual dysfunction in patients informed on sexual side effects (group 2) as compared to those in which the same information was omitted (group 1) (43.6% vs. 15.3%)"
Looks as if merely being informed of the possibility of sexual related sides drastically increases the probability that one might experience them. i.e. Nocebo phenomenon. Ouch! Not great for us forum-goers.
This^; just an aside. My opinion remains the same regarding finasteride; I feel it is a devastating medication for some, and we can't be sure of it's long term effects. Just because you don't have sides today, doesn't mean you won't be sexually defunct 10 years from now. Whose to say, though.
Worth the risk? Hard to say.
Some of this discussion has become redundant. Let's all agree to disagree? I mean, unless we're gearing for some sort of better understanding regarding the nature of sides, but at this point this does not seem to be the case.
Super chill.
05-13-2012 08:00 PM
clandestine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aston
My progression:
at start: aged 22, good libido, some acne (very oily skin), slow hair loss (NW2), very deep sleep
Aston; thanks for the reply mate. Keep us updated with your progress every so often if you're up for it.
05-14-2012 04:55 AM
chrisis
I agree with clandestine. Though I don't understand what interested (unless a vested one) people have against bashing those sharing their experiences and theories.
Fear?
05-14-2012 08:14 AM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by clandestine
2020; seems as if you have a vested interest in defending propecia against claims regarding sexual dysfunction. That's fine.
no dude I just don't agree when chris says that ALL of propecia's studies are flawed and that the drug is much more dangerous than it is when it's not!
"[...]blinded administration of finasteride was associated with a significantly higher proportion of sexual dysfunction in patients informed on sexual side effects (group 2) as compared to those in which the same information was omitted (group 1) (43.6% vs. 15.3%)"
Looks as if merely being informed of the possibility of sexual related sides drastically increases the probability that one might experience them. i.e. Nocebo phenomenon. Ouch! Not great for us forum-goers.
yeah I posted that before.
Here is an extreme case of nocebo effect:
A man was diagnosed with cancer and told that he has few months to live.
He died a few months later altough it was not from cancer because he didn't have cancer to begin with - he was misdiagnosed! :eek:
If the nocebo effect can actually kill you, I'm sure it can give you an erectile dysfunction too....
Quote:
Originally Posted by clandestine
This^; just an aside. My opinion remains the same regarding finasteride; I feel it is a devastating medication for some, and we can't be sure of it's long term effects. Just because you don't have sides today, doesn't mean you won't be sexually defunct 10 years from now. Whose to say, though.
yes but after so many years of studies and thousands and thousands of subjects, they haven't found anyone who got permanent side effects.... if it's even posible, can we AT LEAST agree that it's extremely rare???
05-14-2012 08:21 AM
bob13
2020 I agree with all you say but unfortunately your arguing
with a guy that is convinced he gonna save us from propecia.
It's unworthy of your time.
I quit arguing with these guys.
They troll here all day, it's quite hilarious.
Peace out.
05-14-2012 08:48 AM
clandestine
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob13
2020 I agree with all you say but unfortunately your arguing
with a guy that is convinced he gonna save us from propecia.
It's unworthy of your time.
I quit arguing with these guys.
They troll here all day, it's quite hilarious.
Peace out.
That whole leaving the forums thing didn't go great for you, did it mate?
05-14-2012 02:19 PM
WashedOut
This thread is full of biased opinions for and against propecia.
05-14-2012 04:29 PM
clandestine
Quote:
Originally Posted by WashedOut
This thread is full of biased opinions for and against propecia.
And as with most things in life, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Madhyamā-pratipad.
05-14-2012 04:57 PM
2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by WashedOut
This thread is full of biased opinions for and against propecia.
... what was biased about what I said?
05-14-2012 08:18 PM
chrisis
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob13
2020 I agree with all you say but unfortunately your arguing
with a guy that is convinced he gonna save us from propecia.
It's unworthy of your time.
I quit arguing with these guys.
They troll here all day, it's quite hilarious.
Peace out.
Says the guy who wrote a terrible troll post that went down like a lead balloon, then said he was gonna quit and is still here.
You keep saying you're going to leave when you get called out on your behaviour, and yet you return with this act of superiority.
05-19-2012 09:11 AM
fab
GUYS, STOP ARGUING!
Chrisis, I haven't got maca yet, but you can search online. And I'm pretty sure any natural health store would know as well.
