I was just going through some old picture archives and found something really interesting that I never gave much attention. Remember how they did that 50 graft test 2 years ago ?(and then never showed us good picture nor did they publish it on their website as they promised to). Anyway, they did send me some close up petridish pictures back then, that I never really gave any attention. But they're really interesting !
HASCI always tells you that they just 'take away a small part of the follicle', so the rest can heal, which would cause regrowth according to their fable & story telling. Well, here's the proof that's just 100% BS, pretty much all 100% intact bulbs here:
In A1 you see what they call a 'complete intact follicle' (so this wont give any regrowth) and in B2 they show a 'partial transected follicle', which according to their fairytales is supposed to grow regrowth: according to their fairtytale the part that is left behind will regrow into a fully function follicle and this will regrow hair long enough to pierce the skin within 1 month :) Anyway, the difference in the picture is that in B1 they cut off a small part of the edges of the bulbs and there's no surrounding tissue anymore. In A1 you will see the 100% intact bulbs, and you will see that the bulb is 100% surrounded by tissue (which again shows that the buls are 100% intact)
Now keep those 2 pictures in mind and compare that to the photo's above. They're pretty much all A1 ! Pretty much all bulbs are 100% intact and 100% surrounded by tissue, nothing left behind.
Not sure why I didnt pay any attention to this earlier, it's 100% proof that at least for this specific patient, their drills failed to do what HASCI claims they can do (leave part of the follicle behind). No wonder they never publicized this showcase on their website, as they agreed to do, this guy 100% sure didnt have any regrowth at all !!
08-05-2014 12:57 PM
35YrsAfter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi
I was just going through some old picture archives and found something really interesting that I never gave much attention. Remember how they did that 50 graft test 2 years ago ?(and then never showed us good picture nor did they publish it on their website as they promised to). Anyway, they did send me some close up petridish pictures back then, that I never really gave any attention. But they're really interesting !
HASCI always tells you that they just 'take away a small part of the follicle', so the rest can heal, which would cause regrowth according to their fable & story telling. Well, here's the proof that's just 100% BS, pretty much all 100% intact bulbs here:
I guess when you tell that many lies, it becomes dangerous to show people photo's ...
Thanks for posting. Very interesting and doesn't look anything like the "slivered" follicles extracted by the tool shown in their animation.
35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
08-05-2014 02:21 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35YrsAfter
Thanks for posting. Very interesting and doesn't look anything like the "slivered" follicles extracted by the tool shown in their animation.
Exactly my point. They all look exactly like the figure in A1, the one that can't, even according to their own fairytales, cause any regrowth for sure ! Cause there's simply no tissue left behind to 'heal'. Or like they described it themselves in their fairytales:
Quote:
The aim of the extraction is to remove only a part of the follicle unit, containing follicle and connective tissue from several hair follicles, and leave sufficient follicle unit tissue behind to regenerate hairs
(quote from page 3 in their publication)
08-05-2014 02:28 PM
gc83uk
I'm not sure what is new here, just looks like the usual transected grafts which we are used to seeing.
I can see what you're trying to say, but seeing as they are transacted which most are in that first photo I looked at, then that kind if shows they are indeed leaving more behind compared to regular FUE grafts. Whether that is a good thing or not I don't know anymore.
You would also expect the grafts to be thinner compared to regular fue grafts, because of the extraction tool, isn't it something like .6mm?
08-05-2014 02:35 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
I'm not sure what is new here, just looks like the usual transected grafts which we are used to seeing.
I'm not sure what you mean Gaz ? My point is that the grafts are NOT transected at all, they're 100% intact ! I've put some circles to explain it, around every and each intact follicle: http://s28.postimg.org/hmgbxlvn1/EA_032_circled.jpg
As you can see, they all correspond to A1 (the 100% intact follicle) and not to B1 (the transected follicle). In other words, hasci didnt leave any tissue behind. In other words, 100% sure no regrowth, according to their own theories.
08-05-2014 02:41 PM
gc83uk
I genuinely thought transection meant when e.g there is 2 hairs sticking through the top of the graft and at the bottom of the graft there is only one bulb. I'm not being funny here, but that is correct isn't it?
Can you do the same for image 29?
I'm on ipad at the mo and the other images isn't as clear for me as the first image you posted.
It just seems that those bulbs you've circled only have 1 bulb in the graft, no?
08-05-2014 02:44 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
I genuinely thought transection meant when e.g there is 2 hairs sticking through the top of the graft and at the bottom of the graft there is only one bulb. I'm not being funny here, but that is correct isn't it?
Well, depends whether you're talking about transected hair or transected follicle of course :) They call it themselves "transversal sectioned longitudinal follicular unit" (see B1). Only this can cause regrowth according to their theories. But again, all follicles were 100% intact, so no "transversal sectioned longitudinal follicular units" at all in the picture !!
08-05-2014 02:47 PM
gc83uk
Well I'm talking about transected fu's. Which I can see mostly 2 hair grafts in those pics but with only 1 bulb. Am I seeing things?
08-05-2014 04:00 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
Well I'm talking about transected fu's. Which I can see mostly 2 hair grafts in those pics but with only 1 bulb. Am I seeing things?
Yes, that's the 'secret' to hasci's 'regrowth' : they take out 1 complete bulb and transect a hair, leaving a complete bulb behind. That has nothing to do with regrowth of course, that's just how they fake it. A 2 FU grows back as 1 FU that way, so people like Ironman will say "Wow, see hair is growing back, it's working !" :) Well in fact they just split a FU.
Anyway, my point was, according to their own theories they take a part of the follicle away and leave a part of the follicle behind. The pictures show they either take the COMPLETE follicle away or leave a complete follicle behind. No regrowth at all. Again, compare it to the pictures in their thesis and you'll see what I mean. Again, see A1, which shows the complete bulbs in tact and see B1, which is what they're trying to attain: http://s2.postimg.org/4prl23rnd/transection.jpg (Again, note in B1 that the corners of the bulbs are cut of and at those points, there's no surrounding tissue anymore, contrary to A1, where they're 100% in tact and 100% surrounded by tissue). The idea here is that A1 leaves no tissue behind, so no regrowth. B1 DOES leave tissue behind and according to HASCI, this will cause regrowth And again note that ALL the bulbs in the pictures are exactly like A1: 100% in tact and 100% surrounded by tissue, indicating 0% possibility of regrowth
I really dont see how anyone can deny what I'm saying here. This is really 100% proof of their BS, no way around it.
08-05-2014 04:09 PM
joachim
i think i know what gaz means in his question. it's a misunderstanding and i was wondering about that too some years ago.
everyone feel free to correct me on this.
every single hair sprouting out of the skin has always only one bulb. the hair follicle organ generally has always only 1 bulb and produces a hair fibre shaft which is pushed out of the skin then. some years ago i thought one single bulb can create 1, 2, 3 and 4 hair shafts simultaneously, thus the 1/2/3/4 hair grafts. that's not true of course.
the reason why hair transplant punches consist of 1/2/3/4 hairs is simply because those single hair follicles are very close to each other. thus, a 4 hair graft is not 1 hair bulb with 4 hair shafts. a 4 hair graft is just 4 single hairs extracted in one punch. under the microscope you can also see 4 hair bulbs then.
and that's exactly where Gho comes into the game. what he is doing is just graft splitting. instead of extracting the whole 4 hairs with one punch, he extracts only 1 or 2 of those 4 hairs with a smaller diameter punch and leaves the rest where it is.
transection would only be the case, if you cut one single hair bulb and not extract it as whole.
08-05-2014 04:15 PM
joachim
your right arashi. all those facts tell us it's BS what gho does. it's undeniable.
you mentioned those dutch tv show where scammers are exposed or something like that. which show is it exactly? we really should take it into this show. Gho has to pay for all his lies. and should officially retract his BS claims so that everyone is aware of. also his former patients should get informed about the scam, in case they consider going in for another treatment. with those facts, former patients would even be in a position to sue him in a big way.
it's 2014 and scammers MUST be exposed.
08-05-2014 04:16 PM
Arashi
Exactly. What HASCI CLAIMS to do, is leave a part behind of each bulb. What they SHOW to do, is leave behind a COMPLETE bulb and take out a COMPLETE bulb. That's not regrowth. That's just graft splitting.
08-05-2014 04:23 PM
joachim
the minimum we should do is putting up a website where we expose all those hairloss magicians like Gho and Nigam. something like hairloss-scammers.org or so
there we could list all ineffective treatments and proven scams with proof, pictures etc. and give newcomers a good basis.
i'm so sick of all those charlatans out there.
08-05-2014 04:44 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by joachim
the minimum we should do is putting up a website where we expose all those hairloss magicians like Gho and Nigam. something like hairloss-scammers.org or so
there we could list all ineffective treatments and proven scams with proof, pictures etc. and give newcomers a good basis.
i'm so sick of all those charlatans out there.
I totally agree with you joachim. I find nothing more despicable than people trying to make money off people who are looking for a cure for their ailment. How sick is that !
I have an idea though, going to try something, will let you guys know more later on :)
08-05-2014 04:45 PM
gc83uk
I think we have all known there is an element of splitting grafts, people were calling on Gho for that years ago.
These photos of the bulbless hairs seems to represent what grows in the recipient, which we already know, you say around 1.25 hairs per fu I reckon more like 1.4 but I suppose that number will vary on a case by case basis.
From these photos it doesn't appear that they take half of each bulb, but it also didn't seem that way a couple of years ago when we got the first Petri dish photos from Spanish dude at hairsite, remember that twat? So I'm not sure what is new.
Sure the grafts look fatter than what they should be compared to their paper, I think that was your original point, but perhaps if it was any thinner they'd have no bulbs at all never mind 1.
I'm pretty sure these grafts are thinner than normal fue anyway. They have to be if he's using 0.5 or 0.6mm tools.
Could it be perhaps that the 'stem cells' are located in multiple areas and not just in this bulb area? Re growth can happen by accident as we quickly discussed last week by transecting at the optimal point... So is it not feasible that Gho can play on this and get some sort of regrowth? From my point of view I think the answer is yes, how much I don't know.
On the other hand you could be completely right!
I just wish you'd do something more meaningful about it all considering the time and effort you've already put into it. You're a clever guy, why not get legal advice, sue them. Take it all the way, you've probably got more money than hasci from what you shown us all a couple of years back lol, they'll end up having to prove they can get regrowth to get out of it surely, I'm pretty sure that paper wouldn't be enough to protect them either.
08-05-2014 04:47 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
I think we have all known there is an element of splitting grafts, people were calling on Gho for that years ago.
These photos of the bulbless hairs seems to represent what grows in the recipient, which we already know, you say around 1.25 hairs per fu I reckon more like 1.4 but I suppose that number will vary on a case by case basis.
From these photos it doesn't appear that they take half of each bulb, but it also didn't seem that way a couple of years ago when we got the first Petri dish photos from Spanish dude at hairsite, remember that twat? So I'm not sure what is new.
Sure the grafts look fatter than what they should be compared to their paper, I think that was your original point, but perhaps if it was any thinner they'd have no bulbs at all never mind 1.
I'm pretty sure these grafts are thinner than normal fue anyway. They have to be if he's using 0.5 or 0.6mm tools.
Could it be perhaps that the 'stem cells' are located in multiple areas and not just in this bulb area? Re growth can happen by accident as we quickly discussed last week by transecting at the optimal point... So is it not feasible that Gho can play on this and get some sort of regrowth? From my point of view I think the answer is yes, how much I don't know.
On the other hand you could be completely right!
I just wish you'd do something more meaningful about it all considering the time and effort you've already put into it. You're a clever guy, why not get legal advice, sue them. Take it all the way, you've probably got more money than hasci from what you shown us all a couple of years back lol, they'll end up having to prove they can get regrowth to get out of it surely, I'm pretty sure that paper wouldn't be enough to protect them either.
Yeah I agree it's time to really do something about it now. I'm going to try and do all I can to get their clinic closed. I have an idea though, which I'm going to pursue first ...
08-05-2014 04:49 PM
gc83uk
To both of you here, just remember if Gho isn't getting his regrowth that he claims, he is still getting scarless, which for me is worth so much more than regrowth. So saying hasci is a scam is not wholly true because of that important fact.
As for regrowth, I think you should fill your boots and go for it!
08-05-2014 04:54 PM
gc83uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi
Yeah I agree it's time to really do something about it now. I'm going to try and do all I can to get their clinic closed. I have an idea though, which I'm going to pursue first ...
Lol you sound a bit like didi with that comment.
Would you really want to close the clinic? Would you not just prefer they drop the regrowth claims? It's helped a lot of people have hair transplants that they couldn't of from elsewhere because of the non scarring element. I don't know anyone else that offers it?
08-05-2014 04:56 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
Lol you sound a bit like didi either that comment.
Would you really want to close the clinic? Would you not just prefer they drop the regrowth claims? It's helped a lot of people have hair transplants that they couldn't of from elsewhere because of the non scarring element. I don't know anyone else that offers it?
Yeah I miss Didi, where is that good ol' chap :) Well dropping their regrowth claims would be the first goal indeed.
08-05-2014 05:02 PM
joachim
what i still don't understand is why everybody says a hasci transplant is scarless. do they apply some sort of acell or so to close the extraction wounds?
i only see the fact that Gho is using slightly smaller diameter tools as advantage but that's it.
so, instead of 0.8mm diameter punches he used 0.6mm. that's of course a nice plus, but you still leave a 0.6mm scar instead of 0.8mm. so why does everybody say it's scarless? yes, it's a bit better than a normal FUE as it leaves smaller scar dots, but no it's not scarless. is there any magic in it i'm missing?
08-05-2014 05:04 PM
gc83uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi
Yeah I miss Didi, where is that good ol' chap :) Well dropping their regrowth claims would be the first goal indeed.
No idea, I wasn't his biggest fan, but I miss him a bit too and iron man, I suspect he is lurking the boards as a reader or using a different id keeping out of the way of winston.
The more I think about it, getting them to drop heir regrowth claims is probably as likely as pigs flying.
08-05-2014 05:05 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by joachim
what i still don't understand is why everybody says a hasci transplant is scarless. do they apply some sort of acell or so to close the extraction wounds?
i only see the fact that Gho is using slightly smaller diameter tools as advantage but that's it.
so, instead of 0.8mm diameter punches he used 0.6mm. that's of course a nice plus, but you still leave a 0.6mm scar instead of 0.8mm. so why does everybody say it's scarless? yes, it's a bit better than a normal FUE as it leaves smaller scar dots, but no it's not scarless. is there any magic in it i'm missing?
It's not scarless but the scars are too small to notice. Well I can notice mine, with a certain light and certain angle I can clearly see the scars in recipient (I think same thing is possible with donor, if shaved short).
08-05-2014 05:08 PM
gc83uk
Joachim I don't know how but it's scarless. I have had many HSTs from hasci and there is nothing. At least to the naked eye. Perhaps under a lense there might be a tiny dot? There is a big difference between 0.8 and 0.6. And that's what matters surely.
08-05-2014 05:11 PM
gc83uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi
It's not scarless but the scars are too small to notice. Well I can notice mine, with a certain light and certain angle I can clearly see the scars in recipient (I think same thing is possible with donor, if shaved short).
I think c5000 said only today that he has been blading his head with no signs of scarring. I hadn't considered any scarring in the recipient, but in my case I've not had any scarring anywhere whatsoever after having a quick look again.
To be fair if I did get scarring I certainly wouldn't have gone back 5 times.
08-05-2014 05:13 PM
joachim
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
Joachim I don't know how but it's scarless. I have had many HSTs from hasci and there is nothing. At least to the naked eye. Perhaps under a lense there might be a tiny dot? There is a big difference between 0.8 and 0.6. And that's what matters surely.
so you say, if you shave your donor completely down to zero, then there are no dots visible to the naked eye?
that would be nice, but it is the case for all skin colors? wouldn't a well tanned guy see the white dots?
08-05-2014 05:19 PM
gc83uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by joachim
so you say, if you shave your donor completely down to zero, then there are no dots visible to the naked eye?
that would be nice, but it is the case for all skin colors? wouldn't a well tanned guy see the white dots?
Well all I can say is I've never seen a pic of HST scarring. Hasci is despised by some people, I'm pretty sure if there was a pic of scarring then it would be all over the internet.
Scarring is much easier to prove than regrowth.
Can you put up a pic of the scarring Arashi?
When you say scarring are we talking white dotting? Or indentations? Or both?
And yes if shaved down all the way, nada.
08-05-2014 05:21 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc83uk
I think c5000 said only today that he has been blading his head with no signs of scarring. I hadn't considered any scarring in the recipient, but in my case I've not had any scarring anywhere whatsoever after having a quick look again.
To be fair if I did get scarring I certainly wouldn't have gone back 5 times.
Yeah it's really hard to see them. At home, I can't see them in my own mirror. The only place I can see them is in the elevator of my brother's apartment, lol. It has a mirror and it's quite low, it has sort of neon lights quite close to my head, so in that mirror, if I keep my head at the right angle, I can notice them: small bumps at the root of each hair (those bumps are scar tissue). But you really have to try hard, so who cares anyway, I agree that you can call it 'scarless' if it's that hard to see them :)
08-05-2014 05:30 PM
joachim
ok that's nice so you at least don't have to worry about scars if you want to shave it all down somewhen.
08-06-2014 01:55 AM
caddarik79
Go to Court Arashi, you nailed it!
If you can demonstrate they are scam in a Court, and they are so *****d that they are obliged to admit, you will put an end at this neverending debat.
We cannot wait another 10 years to see if Gaz reaches the 20.000 grafts!!!
and you are in a good position since you were one of their patient!!!
08-06-2014 07:28 AM
35YrsAfter
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi
Yeah it's really hard to see them. At home, I can't see them in my own mirror. The only place I can see them is in the elevator of my brother's apartment, lol. It has a mirror and it's quite low, it has sort of neon lights quite close to my head, so in that mirror, if I keep my head at the right angle, I can notice them: small bumps at the root of each hair (those bumps are scar tissue). But you really have to try hard, so who cares anyway, I agree that you can call it 'scarless' if it's that hard to see them :)
Looking at the animation on Gho's home page, one would expect an entirely different looking graft. See image below. The upper images show his proprietary tool transecting hairs. The green dotted line in the image below indicates approximately where/how the grafts should look after employing the method indicated in the images above taken from his animation. Gho has some explaining to do.
35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck
08-07-2014 10:01 AM
ss1980
Closing clinic would be a bit harsh not because they deserve better but bc we need clinic which offers scarless fue, at present time hasci is the only one doing it.
it is important to raise awareness as this is downright crimin@l and should be punished accordingly
they need to drop regeneration claims and come clean by offering partial to full money refund to ex patients.
08-07-2014 11:50 AM
Arashi
I've thought about it and you and Gaz are right. HASCI shouldnt be closed, that would mean taking away the option of scarless transplant for people who need it. So the goal should be to get them to drop their claims of regeneration. I have an idea I'm going to try ...
08-07-2014 12:14 PM
hellouser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi
I've thought about it and you and Gaz are right. HASCI shouldnt be closed, that would mean taking away the option of scarless transplant for people who need it. So the goal should be to get them to drop their claims of regeneration. I have an idea I'm going to try ...
Would be nice if they dropped their price along with the claims.
08-07-2014 12:49 PM
35YrsAfter
A good FUE physician can remove for example, one or two hairs from a four-hair FU with a .7 or smaller punch. The chance of visible scarring is minimal and this technique preserves a fuller appearance of the donor if the head is kept shaved (style). This method is time consuming and would be expensive. When a full follicular unit is taken during normal FUE surgery, a shaved head later reveals spaces between the hairs as a best-case scenario, when there isn't hypopigmentation.
Gho's reps could come back and say the animation represents an early prototype and they found it easier to remove an intact follicle and split them after they are removed. The animation on their homepage really makes no sense at all. Follicular units never grow in any uniform pattern. It would take perhaps millions of variations of the tool shown in Gho's animation to cover all of the possible FU configurations. Then there's the curved follicle. There really isn't any way a follicle with curvature could be successfully split in the fashion Gho's video/animation illustrates. It would be far easier to split the follicles after they are removed and insert one half back into the donor and the other half into the recipient site.
35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck
08-07-2014 12:55 PM
Arashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35YrsAfter
Gho's reps could come back and say the animation represents an early prototype and they found it easier to remove an intact follicle and split them after they are removed.
Nope, they dont do that, ask any ex patient.
Quote:
The animation on their homepage really makes no sense at all.
Nothing at HASCI makes any sense.
08-07-2014 02:41 PM
gc83uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellouser
Would be nice if they dropped their price along with the claims.
Are they more expensive than other European FUE?
I have just paid €6450 for 1200 grafts, so that's €5.37 a graft.
What do they top FUE clinics charge? Particularly the ones in Europe?
08-07-2014 03:12 PM
joachim
i always thought 1000 grafts cost 10.000 eur at hasci, which would be 10 eur per graft.
as far as i know there are some other doctors who charge 6 to 10 dollar per graft.
08-07-2014 03:36 PM
gc83uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by joachim
i always thought 1000 grafts cost 10.000 eur at hasci, which would be 10 eur per graft.
as far as i know there are some other doctors who charge 6 to 10 dollar per graft.
Yes if that was the case, then I could understand folk thinking it were too expensive. I've been quite a few times now and they give me €500 off the screen price, so normal price for 1200 would be €6950
1800 grafts would cost me €8900, so €4.94 a graft
I know money is a huge factor for many if not most, but I'm pretty sure in the likes of Turkey you can get it for like 2 or 3 eur a graft.
08-07-2014 04:43 PM
Arashi
Yeah it's a bit cheaper than that Joachim. I think I paid about 8500 euro's for 1600 grafts back then. This may not look *that* expensive (like Gaz correctly notes, the top clinics world wide charge about the same), however it does become expensive when you count in transplanted hairs instead of grafts ... I'm pretty sure actually that if you count in hairs (which makes a lot more sense anyway, who cares how many grafts you get, you want to know how many hairs you get, that's what matters !), that HASCI is going to be the most expensive clinic in the world !
