A Grieving Mother's Warning About Propecia

[PropeciaVictim]

No, you can't say with 100% certainty that this study shows finasteride will impact humans in the same way, but it provides some evidence that cannot be clearly written off. If you want to make an educated decision, it is a factor you should consider. Propecia hasn't been around long enough to test its effect on the full human life cycle.

Victim of DHT - You must be kidding. Milk is a natural source of nutrition for any mammalian infant. Big macs, while high in fat content and low in nutritious value, do not directly impact the endocrine, nervous, reproductive systems.

[VictimOfDHT]

I think the milk we buy at food stores does more harm to our bodies than propecia will ever do. And so do all the processed and canned foods, which are behind the skyrocketing cases of cancer yet nobody says anything about that. Heck, I'd be worried eating a hamburger at Mcdonald's than I'd be about taking propecia. Sheeple are selective about what to be afraid of and what not. It's all part of the brainwashing.

[the_charger]

There must be more to it because why do people taking the 5 mg Procar version get so many more side effects than the 1mg propecia version? I know its older guys on Proscar, but its still placebo controlled.. It pretty clearly shows that 5mg has more side effects than 1mg, and then when you go from 1 mg to 350 mg, it might be much worse. But on the other hand, I remember hearing when finasteride was first tested, some guys were on around 50mgs for months and didnt have any problems either.

Still even if this study were actually sound, we cant say the exact same thing happens to humans. If it was really true, guys like Spencer who have been on it for 15 years would have probably no sexual function at all! It looks like all the rats that took finasteride had damaged penises. why dont all humans have the same thing? If our penises were all messed up like those rats, every guy that took propecia for even a little while would have major problems!

[KeepTheHair]

uh

I find it hard to believe someone wont get side effects from 350 pills.....................................

[PropeciaVictim]

Your argument doesn't really hold since the excess finasteride would be metabolized and excreted. Take a look at the following BT post by SPEX. After increasing dose above 1mg in humans, the effect on DHT inhibition basically disappears. It is very likely you would have the same results if a normal human level dose was administered.

This doesn't 'prove' the possibility but such a type of study could never be performed on humans since the subjects are sacrificed for the sake of the experiment.

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4980

[Bakez]

and hold on, in that rat study they gave the rats 4.5mg of fin per kg of body weight

that would be like a human popping 350 pills a ****ing day LOL, if I took 350 vitamin tablets a day i would probably die, what the hell do you think is going to happen taking 350 fin tablets?

what a joke

[the_charger]

Hi propeciavictim. Im not saying that all of the symptoms are so extraordinary. I can actually see that if the drug causes impotence and other sexual problems while using it, it might be possible that they persist after stopping. But ive seen so many symptoms like the ones I listed above that just dont fit.. They were never found as known symptoms during clinical testing and im just so skeptical that guys have such extreme physical reactions to it without soming else at play.

I saw that study you mentioned a few times before, and on other forums I saw people worked out the math and the rats were getting like over 100 times the dosage that humans take in propecia! Rats also arent equal to humans.. I dont know if this really shows us anthing! I also saw another study that says specifically DHT is not required for adult male sexuality, only Testosterone is.. Also propecia only gets rid of like 75% of it, so it looks like the 25% that remains is more than enough to do what our bodies need it to do. Or else everyone taking this stuff would have serious problems!

I really dont want to argue with you guys about it, because I know you are suffering from problems. But im sure you can understand where im coming from, as a guy in my position, its hard to make an educated decision when there is no real evidence telling me its dangerous.

[Bakez]

Who are you then? Maybe you were the guy taking ecstasy and crystal meth while on propecia at 18 years old and then wondering what went wrong?

You lot just post on every single hairloss forum there is under a million different names.

[PropeciaVictim]

I don't really see why the thought of PFS is so "extraordinary" as you put it. To be completely honest, I think the converse is true that it would be considered pretty extraordinary to shut off a biological process without any potential dangers. Anyway, look at the following article. It is a small animal study, but it demonstrates the connection between DHT and penile structure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12647000

To Bakez, it is not entirely clear to me whether your posts are genuine or intentionally provocative. Most Propecia sufferers (including myself) were in impeccable health prior to developing medical problems while on Propecia. There are a few men who had pre-existing conditions that were likely exacerbated by Propecia. However, Merck serves no role in contraindicating prescription of finasteride for any pre-existing conditions. Going strictly off of what the manufacturer states, there is no reason for anybody (other than old men or pregnant women) to avoid finasteride use even if they have a pre-existing endocrine problem.

[the_charger]

I cant understand how propecia could possibly permanently change the size of a guys penis, either erect or flacid.

When im nervous or cold of frightened or even feeling depressed, mine sure as hell shrinks.. and it can stay shrunken for a long while, even a day if im feeling in the dumps. I dont think this is hormonal, just the bodies natural response to emotional changes. but honestly I know next to nothing about hormones!

but when you get a full erection Mens Rea, isnt it regular size? or does this fluctuate? If you say its pencil thin, wouldn't it just be a result of not being able to get a full erection due to ED? Or is it sometimes full, but sometimes thin? I notice my erect penis is never the same size.. When i'm REALLY horny during sex, its way bigger than any regular one I get on my own..

I also regularly see guys saying their testicles have shrunken less than half the size.. in some cases, smaller than peas! I know these physical symptoms are disturbing, but still, i've never seen proof of these things other than what guys describe on that forum. The only physical symptom i've ever seen medically documented is gyno, which is a well known symptom:

http://www.ijdvl.com/article.asp?issn=0378-6323;year=2009;volume=75;issue=3;spage=309;epage=310;aulast=Mansouri

Im wondering where are all the articles like these that document all the guys with permanently broken penises, shrunken testicles, etc?

This sounds really gay, but I would like to see pictures also.. Lots of guys say their penises were permanently broken, bent, hard, shrunken, bleeding, etc.. It's all very scary stuff, but i've never seen a single shred of proof that any of this stuff is happening. I dont understand why that idea would be rejected. If all this stuff you guys are saying is true, it would be extremely convincing.. In fact if I saw a bunch of similarly messed up penis pictures, I would probably quit propecia on the spot!

I'm not saying you guys are lying, but you can probably understand why stuff like that is extremely hard for us all to believe. I really dont want to be a jackass saying this, but you guys are the ones coming out to tell the world all these things are happening, and that propecia is really dangerous. In order for us to actually believe you, there needs to be some hard and irrefutable evidence to back it up with. im not sure if I agree with all this stuff, but as Carl Segan said... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

[Bakez]

How would posting pictures of your symptoms turn PFS into a laughing stock? You are aware that Doctors (apart from John Crisler) don't act like 8 year olds?

So you have these symptoms that are ruining your life, causing massive shrinkage of testicles/penis, I think I even saw some people claiming scabbing/rashes, and yet none of you have the guts to go and prove this to a Dr either in person or on the internet?

[Mens Rea]

'et al', LOL

What is it then? These doctors like John Crisler who are 'speculating', the same ones charging bucketloads for their care? and then goes round multiple internet forums trolling everyone, claiming everyone is paid by Merck, and issuing 'call to arms' to PFS sufferers like its some sort of cyber internet forum war? LOL

This is nothing to do with Dr Crisler.

Not to mention, even if it was. It was never about his personality. It's about the medical side of things. Retain some perspective here.

And just for the record. Dr Crisler is well established in his field. This is completely seperate to his internet presence. Anyway, i don't care to discuss this.

If PFS exists, it isn't to do with bullshit hormone ratios or whatever hormone being 'out of wack'. It is something much deeper than that, it could be androgen resistance, maybe. Or maybe upregulation of androgen receptors, but then again we know that is bullshit as when the opposite happens (down regulation), the receptors WILL replace themselves and even your own John Crisler knows that.

Thanks for the insight, doctor.

We don't know for sure but in terms of sexual sides atleast, the issue of androgen metabolism appears to be the most likely candidate IMO. Enhanced metabolism via the liver can present these hypogondal symptoms quite easily hence the appearance of androgen "resistence".

The proposal of androgen resistance is a difficult concept. Developing a partial AR is something completely unprecedented. Not to say it isn;t that complicated or unique, but it just isn't the most likely thing in all liklihood, especially considering recovery stores (usually via time).

It could be that DHT/5ARII has some sort of massive function on the brain that nobody knows about, but then again IF that were the case, then everyone who took this drug would get ****ed up.

What do you mean, nobody knows about?

The signs are all there. 5ARII inhibitors block allopreg conversion (a critical neurosteroid in the blood and brain) as well as dihydroprogesterone conversion. Not to mention the indirect effects of DHT suppression on neutotransmitters and other key sex hormones that feedback to the Hypothalamus.

These guys on ph keep pumping themselves with god knows what, they claim like 40mg per day of Zinc has drastic effects on libido, when in reality that will do **** all - so its either in their head or they really are ****ed up.

LOL. Really?

Ziinc defeciency can cause a 30% drop in testosterone. If people are in this category, taking 50-100mg WILL help their testosterone levels immensely.

Zinc tends to help in milder cases where estrogen isn't that much of a problem. When it becomes more of a problem you'll need DIM and failing that an AI.

Some of the sides are bullshit, you penis starting to dry up/crack/scabbing/returning to the size of a 5 year old? I mean seriously? Any pictures of this? I'm serious. It isn't like you have to reveal your face in it is it, and I used to take this seriously (and indeed, people ARE taking your claims seriously) so where is the evidence?

Man, there's plenty of guys on PH willing to show pictures. The idea was rejected. We don't want the place to be a laughing stock ffs. There'll be plenty of guys willing to share if you wanted.

As for the "evidence"?

I'm telling you now man. My penis changes size throughout the day. One minute it can be thick, next minute pencil thin. Even when erect. I wouldn't have believed it myself if i hadn't happened to me.

It doesn't even have to be a fin thing, transexuals find their penis' shrink when they take their medications (usually estrogens and anti-androgens). These "guys" can shrink their penis's to ridiculously small sizes. Go to their forums if you feel the urge. I've read them

People who get their prostrates removed often report dramatic shrinkage.

WHEN YOU DIE your penis instantly shrivels up. It's a central nervous system, blood flow and hormonal issue. Admittedly the doctors know shit all about this area (generally because they don't give a shit it would seem) but the real life evidence is there.

Also, nitric oxide. This is necessary for the blood flow of oxidizing of the cells in the penis. Fin can inhibit NO. There's studies on this.

I had shooting pains in my penis (i assume lack of oxygen getting to certain cells...but i don't know for sure) when my "shrinkage" and tissue change onset. My endo didn't have a clue, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

[Bakez]

'et al', LOL

What is it then? These doctors like John Crisler who are 'speculating', the same ones charging bucketloads for their care? and then goes round multiple internet forums trolling everyone, claiming everyone is paid by Merck, and issuing 'call to arms' to PFS sufferers like its some sort of cyber internet forum war? LOL

If PFS exists, it isn't to do with bullshit hormone ratios or whatever hormone being 'out of wack'. It is something much deeper than that, it could be androgen resistance, maybe. Or maybe upregulation of androgen receptors, but then again we know that is bullshit as when the opposite happens (down regulation), the receptors WILL replace themselves and even your own John Crisler knows that.

It could be that DHT/5ARII has some sort of massive function on the brain that nobody knows about, but then again IF that were the case, then everyone who took this drug would get ****ed up.

These guys on ph keep pumping themselves with god knows what, they claim like 40mg per day of Zinc has drastic effects on libido, when in reality that will do **** all - so its either in their head or they really are ****ed up.

Some of the sides are bullshit, you penis starting to dry up/crack/scabbing/returning to the size of a 5 year old? I mean seriously? Any pictures of this? I'm serious. It isn't like you have to reveal your face in it is it, and I used to take this seriously (and indeed, people ARE taking your claims seriously) so where is the evidence?

[Mens Rea]

Lol, just realised you are the poster who claimed that people from the UK have a genetic deficiency that makes them prone to PFS, what a joke this is.

Ohhh, i remember you now.

For everyone's reference:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?p=27523

I LOVE how you jumped away from that thread when i raised some valid points by the way. Would it be fair to say you were massively out of your depth in that debate? That thread would suggest so. Feel free to revisit.

I'd appreciate if you didn't misquote me by the way. I was simply speculating on the worrying trend of a disproportionate amount of UK PFS victims. If this is infact the case, there is very likely a medical reason for it. Dr Jacobs et al have speculated on what might make one more predisposed to PFS than others himself, so for me to suggest that perhaps one area might present a higher level of predisposal than another, I think that's worth consideration IF the figures are as disproportionate as it would appear.

So - one more time - instead of bullshiting yourself out of arguments, if you don't wish to back up your points with any substance of your own, then i would suggest you stick to posting about things you actually know something about.

[Mens Rea]

Is there anyone who, like you claim, was actually *healthy* before they took it? Or have you just conviniently left out certain circumstances?

Sorry you've clearly just found 2 or 3 examples, either by coincidence or by convenience, that go against what i said.

If you actualyl did look "in detail" you wouldn't have challenged what i said.

Again. I'm one. I converse almost daily with maybe 10-20 others. If you care enough make a thread on PH go ahead. But if you even look at the Dr Irwig study, for all its flaws, it ruled out all guys with previous sexual problems (yes i know, just sexual AFAIK) and he still had no problem getting around 80 candidates.

It's all there if you care to look, i assure you.