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Dave123
07-14-2012, 09:33 PM
First off I'd like to point out that I've done tons and tons of research on this subject. I've read just about every post on every big hairloss forum about scalp inflammation, tingling, burning and itchiness where hair loss occurs. I even went to a doctor, who took one look and told me that it wasn't MPB but probably a neurological problem. I started off with a perfect scalp, but as of about January or February of this year, I started feeling intense itchiness/burning/tingling in my crown and in other areas on the top of my head where, soon thereafter, hair loss occurred.

I know that there are many of us that feel all of this, and many that do not. For those of us that do, it's a crippling sensation. You feel a hot scalp, sometimes it gets unbearably itchy, other times it just tingles as if there are tiny ants crawling through your hair. And no, it's not lice or any infection because it's been ruled out. For some of us, like me, Nizoral doesn't even help much. It sometimes even exacerbates the problem.

From all my research on the subject, I've deduced the following. This is by no means the absolute truth, but just what I've gathered because I want to find out the real reason as to why it occurs and if there is a cure/possible halting of it.

1. It happens mostly in diffuse thinners
2. The current hypothesis is that all the tingling and inflammation is immune mediated as a result of DHT attacking the hair follicles
3. Finasteride supposedly SHOULD stop it
4. Wherever the burning/inflammation/itchyness happens, it is soon followed by hair loss
5. Nizoral may help/may worsen
6. Tea tree oil/Emu oil/Amla oil may help
7. Fish Oil may help
8. Corticosteroids are a huge question mark

As you can see, there's simply not enough information on the subject. I've been on propecia for 2 months and nothing has changed in regards to my inflammation; as a matter of fact, it has probably even gotten worse.

I know some of you will say "go to your doctor" but the mere fact is most if not 90% of these dermatologists have no idea about the subject and are likely to just call it dermatitis and give you ketoconazole. It starts when we experience hair loss- this is how we know that it is probably DIRECTLY linked to hair loss and MPB.

So, fire away. For those diffuse thinners among us (and perhaps those that aren't diffuse thinners but get the same sensations), tell us your story. Tell us what helped you, what made it worse, how you cured it if you did and anything else on the subject. It's a psychologically taxing sensation because you know you're going to lose more of your hair and there is probably nothing you can do about it.

Thinning@30
07-14-2012, 11:09 PM
Hi Dave,

Thank you for starting this thread. I too have terrible issues with scalp itching, tingling, and burning. At this point I've been to three different dermatologists, all of which were pretty useless. I was diagnosed with seborrheic dermatitis and given prescription strength Nizoral shampoo. The Nizoral helped clear up the dandruff flakes I was getting but did nothing for the itching. I then was given several different corticosteroids to use on my scalp, which again did nothing. I agree with you that most dermatologists are clueless about this phenomenon. For me, the itching and burning are worse in the regions of my scalp that have been affected by MPB. Strangely, these sensations are not present 100 percent of the time, they seem to wax and wane over the course of a day. The only things I have been able to identify so far as triggers are water and sunlight. I now dread taking a shower or being in situations where my hair will get wet because I know it will set off a firestorm of itching that will last for about an hour.

At my last visit to the dermatologist, the doctor suggested I try an antidepressant called Neurontin. I'm not too clear on the science, but it is supposed to inhibit Substance P, which is thought to be a factor in scalp inflammation. I'm torn though, as one of the side effects of Neurontin is hair loss, and I don't want to take a drug that stops the itching but causes even more hair to fall out. On the other hand, I feel like whatever is causing the itching and burning can't be good for my hair, so I'm not sure what I will do.

Dave123
07-15-2012, 09:49 AM
I know what you mean, man. It's worse after I take a shower, even though I use sulfate free shampoo (aveeno pure renewal.)

And if I don't take a shower even for one day, my hair becomes greasy as hell and limp & see through.

Catch 22. It sucks.

WashedOut
07-15-2012, 11:22 AM
In my case it only becomes a problem if I don't shampoo for a day or two. Nizoral has helped me out a lot as well. From what I can remember it's been a problem since I was a kid, if I didn't shampoo my head would just itch like crazy. The tingling/burning is a new thing though.

ovoxo
07-15-2012, 01:36 PM
I experience this itching all over the scalp, it is worse when I don't wash my hair. When I sweat it itches like crazy. I experience days when I barely feel it, days when it itches like hell. Nizoral did nothing for me.

Dave123
07-15-2012, 01:55 PM
Are any of you guys on FIN? Some people say its all due to DHT wreaking havoc on your scalp. Has it helped for you guys? I've been on it for 2 months and hasn't helped at all.

Thinning@30
07-16-2012, 06:19 PM
I was on finasteride when I first noticed the intense scalp itching. Since that time, I've stopped due to side effects. Being on or off finasteride doesn't seem to have made a difference in my case. Corticosteroids didn't help for me either.

sch89
07-16-2012, 08:58 PM
This has pretty much been my story: diffuse loss, very resistant itch. I have been taking a supplement called Tocomin SupraBio which I had heard a lot of anecdotal evidence of people experiencing less itching whiles taking it. It's pretty cheap so I bought a couple bottles. It seemed to help for a while very noticeably, but now its back with a vengeance even though I've been taking it faithfully.

My next attempt will be a full size laser helmet, as I've also heard people experiencing good success taming itchiness with one of those. I'll def update if I get any positive results with that.

beatinghairloss
07-16-2012, 09:53 PM
The burning is from blood not free flowing there by preventing your scalp from regulating heat. It is then that your scalp which usually has blood close to the surface sweating, loseing heat becomes dry and hot explaining the burning and dandruff from a sweat free scalp. The itchy tingling is an involuntary physiological response from your body forcing you to scratch to move stagnent blood. Much like having a scab that itches because the body is trying to free the injuries stagnent blood clotting. Infections itch to try to make u spread them same as bug bites.

mpb47
07-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Have had this problem 2 times :

The first time was when my vertex/crown first started thinning about 12 years ago.

I noticed this: increase sex drive, increase body hair, horrible itch/burn and rapid loss in the back.

I believe it is DHT+some other unknown factor as it only happens to some of us.
At the time a hair Dr guessed that it may be some kind of autoimmune response.

I had never had a problem with minox but when this started using minox in the back only made the burn even worse. But even without minox the problem was still there just not as severe. One thing I figured out over time was the itch/burn was most severe to whereever the mpb was spreading, mostly the area right next to my crown outline.

BTW FIN did eventually reduce the problem 95% but it too a long time to work. Give it at least a year.

Back in march my dr put me on a low dose of T and my mpb started up again . Itch/burn/red scale all came back but not as bad as the first time.
It has recently been reduced and I am not sure why. My body has adjusted to the higher levels of T or maybe Nizarol as I started on it about 1 month ago.

Anyway give the Fin a year and hopefully that itch will be gone.

ovoxo
07-17-2012, 11:53 PM
so if I experience itch all over scalp, do I have thinning all over?

Stanth
07-22-2012, 11:48 AM
Not necessarily... I've always had an itchy scalp (mild psoriasis), but have only been losing my hair for about 8 years. It has been more itchy where I am losing hair, so I would agree that there is a definite correlation, but then the sides sometimes have that feeling as well and they're going nowhere (yet). So, I would say that itching [I]probably[I] indicates where hair is going to be loss, but not always, so don't get too down about it!

mpb47
07-22-2012, 01:30 PM
so if I experience itch all over scalp, do I have thinning all over?

I normally got the itch only where I was losing hair. The interesting thing is I never had any itch whatsoever at my hairline area. Only vertex/top where I was losing.

win200
12-24-2012, 05:31 PM
Just wanted to resurrect this thread. I've had a very faint burning/tingling sensation on the back of my head for a few days... from the bottom of the neck to about the top of the ears. It isn't present in the crown or vertex areas. I've also experienced some thinning in this area over the last six months or so.

It's not burning so much as a kind of radiating warmth. It's not painful.

Anyone have thoughts on this? I've been applying minoxidil every other night to the back of the head to try to address the thinning. Is this a good idea, or should I hold off? Could it be exacerbating the tingling or loss in that area?

Dave123
12-24-2012, 06:34 PM
I made this thread 5 months ago, after being on 2 months on propecia. I mentioned that the burning was still going on.

I'm glad to report that after being on it for 7 months, the burning has gone away. It officially went away at about the 4 month mark. I firmly believe it is due to DHT causing reckless abandon on the hair follicles.

burtandernie
01-09-2013, 05:28 PM
Same deal here long time problem for me and hair loss also although its slow. I tried saw palmetto and it made it go away but over time it came back. I just quit because I had sides and figured I may as well just use propecia because I dont think saw palmetto is strong enough. I think for me its DHT related but I need to try finasteride first and see.

konfusion
01-14-2013, 08:44 AM
I also have a strange story, my scalp itches like crazy, sometimes it wakes me up! I also have bump-like spots on my scalp, but that's not something new. I always had them since like I was 17. Now I am just a few months from turning 30. Anyways, even though I was suffering from MPB for quite a time now, I never ever had this itching before. My scalp was not itchy even when my hair had it's biggest hit in the beginning of 2012. At the time I had been using Fin for like 5 years. Fin should be good for itching, right? Oh sure :) My itch started when I was on Fin, I doubled the dosage, not a change. Now I am a Dutas user for 5 months, anything changed? NO! This itch is gonna kill me, I am serious.
One thing I remember, before my itch started I was reading this forum and came up with the idea that how the itch is related to MPB. I said to my self, well at least I don't have it, then I added "haha, now I am gonna start itching just because I read this". It was a joke, but it happened. I am not even sure if my itch is physiologic anymore, I tried lots of things, Nizoral, T-gel, Omega-3, Baking Soda etc etc. None of them helped. Can it be I was asking for it psychologically?

mpbsucks
01-16-2013, 03:09 AM
I made this thread 5 months ago, after being on 2 months on propecia. I mentioned that the burning was still going on.

I'm glad to report that after being on it for 7 months, the burning has gone away. It officially went away at about the 4 month mark. I firmly believe it is due to DHT causing reckless abandon on the hair follicles.

After your scalp stopped itching did your hair stop falling out?

I am a diffuse thinner, hair started to drop 3 years ago. My scalp itch stopped 4 months after I started propecia and my hair loss also stopped completely at this time. 4 months later I started losing hair again and the itch returned, I believe, at least for me, this ispretty solid evidence that dying hair follicles are responsible for the itching and tingling. Nizoral does tend to help at least a little though....

mpbsucks
12-17-2013, 10:22 PM
I also have a strange story, my scalp itches like crazy, sometimes it wakes me up! I also have bump-like spots on my scalp, but that's not something new. I always had them since like I was 17. Now I am just a few months from turning 30. Anyways, even though I was suffering from MPB for quite a time now, I never ever had this itching before. My scalp was not itchy even when my hair had it's biggest hit in the beginning of 2012. At the time I had been using Fin for like 5 years. Fin should be good for itching, right? Oh sure :) My itch started when I was on Fin, I doubled the dosage, not a change. Now I am a Dutas user for 5 months, anything changed? NO! This itch is gonna kill me, I am serious.
One thing I remember, before my itch started I was reading this forum and came up with the idea that how the itch is related to MPB. I said to my self, well at least I don't have it, then I added "haha, now I am gonna start itching just because I read this". It was a joke, but it happened. I am not even sure if my itch is physiologic anymore, I tried lots of things, Nizoral, T-gel, Omega-3, Baking Soda etc etc. None of them helped. Can it be I was asking for it psychologically?

Had to bump this old thread as I was am in the same position you were Konfusion. I also swithced to Avodart for five months with no success, this stuff is a curse. Did you have any luck getting the itching and/or shedding to stop?

burtandernie
12-18-2013, 07:38 PM
I am in the same boat though as you guys. I think its MPB related but its a combination of androgens, immune system, and androgen receptors. I will just say I went to a few derms many years ago tried prescription shampoos and steroids nothing ever helped me. I tried every shampoo you can think of nothing really helped more then a day or two.
I kid you not when I say saw palmetto made it go away, but its a long story and that lead me to believe in my case its androgen related. The big question though is why is one hair more sensitive to androgens then others? It feels like removing most androgens with propecia just causes your hair to adapt to less androgens and carry on how it was. We need more research into receptors and why hair is sensitive.

konfusion
12-28-2013, 10:13 AM
I kid you not when I say saw palmetto made it go away

that is strange, I was just about to tell I started a supplement consisting of 300 mg saw palmetto (in addition to finasteride of course, as for my duta story, it is over for seeing no improvement and noticing mental sides). it is a little bit early but my scalp feels healthier, I think it might be due to saw palmetto. anyone else taking it with finas?

burtandernie
12-28-2013, 10:28 AM
I used 320 mg gel caps from gnc. After having effects similar to finasteride I just dropped it and I used it again later on and it did nothing the second time. I dropped it the first time after deciding its probably more effective to use propecia. I do think its androgen related for me but I still have my reservations about propecia because I think its a lot stronger then saw palmetto which makes me nervous

burtandernie
01-05-2014, 03:50 PM
Did anyone have the itch go away after starting propecia? Did it go away everywhere even the front/temples or mainly the crown?
I still feel there is a connection between the itch and hair loss. I just wish someone definitely knew what it was, but given our current knowledge I doubt its ever going to happen

mpb47
01-05-2014, 06:58 PM
Did anyone have the itch go away after starting propecia? Did it go away everywhere even the front/temples or mainly the crown?
I still feel there is a connection between the itch and hair loss. I just wish someone definitely knew what it was, but given our current knowledge I doubt its ever going to happen

I never ever had itch up front...only in crown and mid section. And yes after a few months the itching stopped.

konfusion
08-28-2014, 02:35 PM
I wrote some time ago to this thread, now it is update time. I mentioned that I started saw palmetto. My regimen is now fin daily, 300 mg saw palmetto daily (also i.cludes 4 mg isoflavone which I dont know much about but they argue it is good for hair) and 2 times a week dutasteride. My itch is 80% gone. I still sometimed feel it but very mildy, it used to be a hell for me so I am very happy about not having to scratch my scalp like a crazy person. On the other hand no real improvement in shedding or hair condition at all. Maybe this is just masking the itch without removing the cause or the itch is not related to mpb at all, I don't know. I just feel more relaxed on the scalp.

burtandernie
08-28-2014, 07:01 PM
Was the itch equal everywhere or more front/temples? so after finasteride it went away everywhere equally or does it still itch more in the front than back?

OrdinaryUser
08-28-2014, 10:55 PM
I wrote some time ago to this thread, now it is update time. I mentioned that I started saw palmetto. My regimen is now fin daily, 300 mg saw palmetto daily (also i.cludes 4 mg isoflavone which I dont know much about but they argue it is good for hair) and 2 times a week dutasteride. My itch is 80% gone. I still sometimed feel it but very mildy, it used to be a hell for me so I am very happy about not having to scratch my scalp like a crazy person. On the other hand no real improvement in shedding or hair condition at all. Maybe this is just masking the itch without removing the cause or the itch is not related to mpb at all, I don't know. I just feel more relaxed on the scalp.

how long have you been on this updated regimen?

konfusion
08-29-2014, 09:34 AM
how long have you been on this updated regimen?

About 8-9 months I think, cannot exactly recall when I added dutas.
As for the itch, it was mainly in the frontal just behind hairline, mid region and vertex. Vertex and mid region were terrible.
And also note that itch 80% gone, not completely but it feels so much better now. Before this regimen I used to take 1 mg dutas daily, and it wasnt helping with the itch at all. I stopped it and did not use anything for like 15-20 days, then I started the fin and saw palmetto. And after sometime I added 2x weekly dutas because I felt fin might be too light for me after a complete year of dutasteride.

burtandernie
08-31-2014, 05:49 PM
There is no real answer to the burning tingling stuff. I mean we dont even know if its different things for each person or not. If its an immune system thing we probably wont ever know with how little anyone knows about that and how dangerous it is to mess around in that area. Androgens might be the cause but only in some people or it could be seb derm who really knows. Each person has to guess and check different things because its clear no one has any real idea.

Jazz1
08-31-2014, 06:10 PM
I'm like a timer, if I stop FIN couple days to a week my whole scalp starts to itch, tingle, burn and hair starts to fall. This is such a funny feeling something inside my scalp eating at my follicles, obviously DHT. As soon as I take FIN few hours all the problems go, no itching, no tingle nothing :).

goldnt
09-01-2014, 02:25 PM
When i first started to lose my hair i got these, it would bother me so much. i would scratch it or just do a hair pull test and noticed i would lose hair there. Over time these places were spots that had a lack of hair. For example i would get that sensation on the crown area in the cow lick area. 2 months later and that area is a small bald spot. i would also get that in my hairline area where im receding. Once i got on ru though i dont get those anymore. Unless i dont apply it or i get a bad batch of ru i start getting those sensations and hairloss. Thats how i know when i get a bad batch of ru.

OrdinaryUser
09-01-2014, 03:38 PM
Like a lot of you it seems, my first onset of hairloss was accompanied by burning, itching, etc. It then happened intermittently when my hairloss episode slowed down a little. Another contributing factor for these sensations of the scalp was when I trialed Rogaine about 6 months ago. In conjunction with worsening my hair by thinning it all over in what I hope to be just a reversible shed, it also gave me the itch I experienced the first time I had hairloss, but this time it was worse and there were red nodules forming on my scalp that have since scarred.

I stopped Rogaine and tried ketaconazole with no relief. I then got on finasteride, a low dose, and only gave a little relief. What has given be the best relief and a removal of at least 3/4 of the itch is salicylic acid. It could be a good addition to any regimen to help with overall inflammation.

Stressed
09-02-2014, 07:37 AM
Hi guys does anybody know why my scalp has only STARTED itching now after 5 months on propecia?? Iv never had this problem and only had a receding hairline when i started.. I started minox 4 weeks ago but i only apply it on the hairline. My whole head itches in places and when i scratch it and tug the hair atleast 3 hairs come out at a time. I also started keto shampoo 4 weeks ago but stopped it a week ago thinking it was causing the shed. It is obvious now that it wasnt. Help please??

35YrsAfter
09-02-2014, 08:32 AM
Hi guys does anybody know why my scalp has only STARTED itching now after 5 months on propecia?? Iv never had this problem and only had a receding hairline when i started.. I started minox 4 weeks ago but i only apply it on the hairline. My whole head itches in places and when i scratch it and tug the hair atleast 3 hairs come out at a time. I also started keto shampoo 4 weeks ago but stopped it a week ago thinking it was causing the shed. It is obvious now that it wasnt. Help please??

Everyone I know (including myself) has gone through a time when their hair thinned considerably. My worst shed happened ten years ago. It all grew back. Coincidence often causes us to jump to conclusions. My advice... Stay healthy, use all of the proven oral and topicals and look forward to more effective treatments coming our way fairly soon (2.5 - 6 years).

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office - forhair.com - Cole Hair Transplant, 1045 Powers Place, Alpharetta, Georgia 30009 - Phone 678-566-1011 - email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

ash86
10-09-2014, 01:16 PM
Black tea rinses are a DHT blocker bc of the caffeine in it, you should try that.. try it once every 2 weeks after washing your hair.. follow up with a moisturizing conditioner bc the black tea rinse can be drying to your hair

Dench57
02-20-2015, 11:12 AM
Sorry to resurrect this thread but it's the best I've found with people in a similar position to me.

I've been on Propecia for 3 months now and I am absolutely certain it has caused my burning/scalp itch. I seem to be an extremely rare minority, as most people's itch stops once they get on Propecia.

I've had receding at the temples for 3-4 years and never experienced any itching, 2 months into Propecia and BAM I got this burning/tingly sensation above my temples. Fast forward 1 month and this area has thinned considerably, where I never had thinning before. I've spent hours trawling through threads and 90% of people agree this sensation is followed by hairloss and is DHT "attacking the hair follicles. I cannot work out how Propecia could cause this itch since it supposedly lowers DHT. The only thing I can think is an increase in Test, since I have had a higher sex drive since this itch started. I've been using Regenepure shampoo for the past few weeks but it's not helping. My hairline has worsened faster in the last 3 months than it had in the last 3 years. I just don't understand how Propecia could possibly be causing this. I'm going to come off it for a few weeks anyway and hope to god the itching stops because it's unbearable, 24 hours a day.

Ziggyz123
02-20-2015, 03:18 PM
Dench57, I am experiencing something very similar. The only difference is that I've been on finasteride for a year and 3 months. At the one year mark ( October ) a huge she's hot me. I never had a shed at all during finasteride until this point. My hairline thinned considerably on the left side and receded a bit along with a burning/stinging sensation. The shed hasn't been as bad as it was in December, but I still get a burning/sting sensation along my hairline and on the sides. I think it may be caused by a shedding cycle synchronized with a fin shed.

In your situation, shedding in the first 2-6 months is extremely common. You may have more follicles entering the shed at one time then you normally would due to the effects of finasteride. This would cause that type of sensation similar to what people get during telogen effluvium. I'm not positive about it though so don't quote me on it, but I've read some stories of people shedding on fin and having that issue and it clearing up after the hair re thickens.

I too started weaning off of fin, but found myself taking it again at the 1.25 mg dose hoping that my hair will thicken up in the coming months.

Ziggyz123
02-20-2015, 03:19 PM
Meant to say in October a huge shed hit me... My phone sucks

awesome1
02-21-2015, 05:23 PM
For me, I'm pretty sure seborrheic dermatitis is the cause of my itch. I've noticed for years now my skin sheds a lot and I've got some bad beard dandruff, excess sebum production in my ears, and sometimes my chest hair gets a rash, where it is thick, along with scalp itch.

Hair loss started with some vertex thinning and now noticing temples getting pretty thin. Only way I treat it is with keto shampoo(regenepure) and water/apple cider vinegar mix as a conditioner. Seems to help with the itch but sometimes i notice it get itchy just a few hours later. Doctor also gave me selenium shampoo which is good on affected areas, like my beard and chest. Just don't like the smell of it that lingers all day.

Dench57
02-24-2015, 11:37 AM
Thank you for the responses guys, it helps being able to talk about this stuff.

Ziggy - was Finasteride working for you before? And have you noticed any regrowth from the shed that hit you?

The burning/itch has definitely been localized to an area above my right temple where it's thinner than ever, and I'm worried it will never recover. The reason I'm so concerned is that I can find countless information on various Propecia side effects, shedding and so on, but there's very little people who've had Propecia cause this burning sensation so I really don't know what's happening.

From all I've read it seems shedding on Propecia can generally be taken as a good sign, but burning/itching of any sort is a bad sign - it's basically just the feeling of your hair getting attacked. There's plenty of people who say they shed and the hair came back stronger which is great. But I can't find anyone who's had this burn and said it passes and the hair recovers. Sounds silly but I need to find that success story to keep me going through this.

Dench57
02-24-2015, 11:45 AM
For me, I'm pretty sure seborrheic dermatitis is the cause of my itch. I've noticed for years now my skin sheds a lot and I've got some bad beard dandruff, excess sebum production in my ears, and sometimes my chest hair gets a rash, where it is thick, along with scalp itch.

Hair loss started with some vertex thinning and now noticing temples getting pretty thin. Only way I treat it is with keto shampoo(regenepure) and water/apple cider vinegar mix as a conditioner. Seems to help with the itch but sometimes i notice it get itchy just a few hours later. Doctor also gave me selenium shampoo which is good on affected areas, like my beard and chest. Just don't like the smell of it that lingers all day.

I'm hoping that I don't have seborrheic dermatitis, my hair hasn't been oily and I haven't noticed increased sebum, and there's no redness in the affected areas of my scalp. However, I have noticed an increase in dandruff...I've never had dandruff before really. I'm considering the possibility it could be telogen effluvium, as I've read people in extremely rare cases getting it from Propecia.

Ziggyz123
02-24-2015, 02:57 PM
Hey dench57, I'm unfortunately still shedding small amounts. Some hair did regrow in front of my hairline at my Peak, but back further it is still the same. If you use minox, I'd stop because that helped me relieve this a bit, but yea my hairline is getting sketchy. I have an appointment next Tuesday at an endocrinologist to see what my test levels and what not are. I'll update you when I'm done and try and shed some light on this. I can say though that in reading one burning etc Hairloss, women usually get this from too much testosterone and that's what I believe may be happening. The increase in test from fin could be doing damage.
Talk to you soon man.

Dench57
02-24-2015, 03:29 PM
Hey dench57, I'm unfortunately still shedding small amounts. Some hair did regrow in front of my hairline at my Peak, but back further it is still the same. If you use minox, I'd stop because that helped me relieve this a bit, but yea my hairline is getting sketchy. I have an appointment next Tuesday at an endocrinologist to see what my test levels and what not are. I'll update you when I'm done and try and shed some light on this. I can say though that in reading one burning etc Hairloss, women usually get this from too much testosterone and that's what I believe may be happening. The increase in test from fin could be doing damage.
Talk to you soon man.

Hey Ziggy, thanks for the response.

Increased Test is the closest thing to a logical reason I can think of too. I've definitely noticed an increased sex drive which I believe is a sign of increased Test. As far as I'm aware the hairloss community doesn't really know what Test does to hairloss, other than it can be damaging... but not as damaging as DHT. I still can't get my head around how Propecia, reducing my DHT, could be worse for my hair due to a slight Test increase. I guess we are in a small minority who are more sensitive to Test. There's really so little information on all of this though, it's all speculation. Sigh.

Good luck with your appointment, I hope you can get some answers.

Dench57
02-24-2015, 03:38 PM
What type of MPB do you have btw? I'm purely frontal receding, above the temples, and it's the same in my family so I don't think I'll ever have vertex/diffuse thinning at the back. From what I've read it seems hair at the front is more sensitive to hormone changes, and can respond poorly to Fin compared to other types of balding.

If DHT inhibitors (Dut, Fin) don't work for us then we're pretty screwed right? There's nothing else effective out there. I'm not sure where to go from here - stick with Fin and see if it improves, in the process risking damaging my hair even further. Or drop Fin and just accept my hairloss. Limited options.

Ziggyz123
02-24-2015, 06:35 PM
Hey again dench, yea i'm just receding in the front. runs in my family unfortunately. no straight baldness, just receding hairlines. But yes, i was doing fine actually on fin up until this year.. the weird thing is that in the summer, i thought my hair was geting thinner, but it could have been due to my shorter hair cut. also, when the recent shed hit me, i did have an increased sex drive as well. another odd thing is that i never experienced a shed in the beginning from finasteride.. it's like i had this one at the 1 year mark and now my scalp sort of hurts along my hair line at times.. the hair just thinned out considerably on my left hairline and a little behind it.. never had this type of issue before finasteride.. all my shed hairs do have a little white bulb on them though so im not sure if finasteride is giving me a form of TE and it wont go away until i quit? pretty much just at a loss with this just like you man. hopefully when i get blood work from the endocrinologist, it will show either that fin isnt working and my dht is elevated, or it is working and my testosterone is through the roof causing damage to my hairline..

Ziggyz123
02-24-2015, 06:37 PM
Oh, and i didn't see any regrowth or anything on finasteride. i meant doing fine as in i wasn't really losing more hair.. i did however have brain fog, decreased libido (which tapered off quickly), and i was tired a lot lol.. all went away and now i feel like my body fought off the drug because i have literally overcome all the sides and now my hair line is crapping out..

Dench57
03-26-2015, 11:30 AM
Hey Ziggy, how did your meeting with the endocrinologist go?


More than 4 weeks off Fin and the burning/itchiness and thinning is showing no signs of stopping. I've been to my GP and will be having a blood test on Tuesday. I'm determined to see a dermatologist who specialises in scalp/hair problems though, I think that's the only way I'll get an answer because this problem is too obscure for a standard GP.

Ziggyz123
03-26-2015, 12:50 PM
Hey Dench, unfortunately my endo cancelled the appointment because my other blood work was normal.. My primary sent over my blood work without me know, but I was supposed to get hormone levels checked. I have no clue what caused the burning/stinging/itch but I lost a lot of hair on the left side. My whole scalp seemed to have thinned actually but the pain is localized to the left side. I was on generics for the first year and just recently switched, but I've been thinking of quitting fin and just restoring the hair with a transplant.

Another derm I went to said my scalp looks clear so he doesn't know what's causing it, but I feel like it's fin because I've never in my life had this before and now I do.. Only seems logical.

Try using tea tree oil shampoo though, it helped calm my scalp about 60-70% to where I can now think.

Dench57
03-26-2015, 01:03 PM
Hey Dench, unfortunately my endo cancelled the appointment because my other blood work was normal.. My primary sent over my blood work without me know, but I was supposed to get hormone levels checked. I have no clue what caused the burning/stinging/itch but I lost a lot of hair on the left side. My whole scalp seemed to have thinned actually but the pain is localized to the left side. I was on generics for the first year and just recently switched, but I've been thinking of quitting fin and just restoring the hair with a transplant.

Another derm I went to said my scalp looks clear so he doesn't know what's causing it, but I feel like it's fin because I've never in my life had this before and now I do.. Only seems logical.

Try using tea tree oil shampoo though, it helped calm my scalp about 60-70% to where I can now think.

I'm pretty sure my blood work will come back normal as well. I'm only doing it to get my hormone levels checked. Interesting because my pain is localised to my right side, just above the temple, that area has thinned loads and it feels different the other hair on my head. Noticeably thinner. I'm wondering if maybe that affected patch has been "shocked" into a resting phase all at once by the sudden hormone changes caused by Fin, which would explain the itching/pain, and it will fall out soon. It's all just speculation though, I need specialist medical advice before I go insane. My scalp looks clear and there's no redness. I definitely need a scalp biopsy from a specialist dermatologist.

I know this never would've happened if I hadn't taken Fin. I should've just left my hair, it would've been fine for at least a few years and then I could've got a transplant eventually. I've lost more in the last 4 months than I had in 5 years of receding. Before I could hide it but now it's obvious, I'm still struggling to come to terms with how stupid I was take Fin. Biggest regret of my life.

Dench57
03-26-2015, 01:10 PM
I might try that tea tree oil shampoo - would you recommend one?

I'm still using Regenepure, it makes my hair look/feel thicker I think but I guess it's purely cosmetic. Doesn't help with the itch.

I ordered some Margo Alive shampoo from the US after reading some studies that show it's active ingredient (capsaicin - from chillis) can help stimulate hairgrowth but mainly because it combats "substance P" a neuropeptide associated with burning scalp syndrome that can damage hair follices. Little known about it though, might be bullshit but I guess anything is worth a shot. At this rate I'll end up with about 10 different bottles of medicated shampoo.

Ziggyz123
03-26-2015, 02:39 PM
Hey again, yeah I have the exact same mindset with this. I wasn't even thinning or was my hairline even receded lol. I just wanted to prevent it because it's a widows peak. But yeah, got INSANELY thin on the left and my hairline literally burned itself off as well.

I heard anti depressants help inhibit substance p as well. I really wish others had the answer, but it HAS TO BE FINASTERIDE. Have you felt hornier? When this started for me I did feel hornier and it has since calmed down, however when I used fin from the beginning my morning would went away and now it's back.. The testosterone might be what's causing all this.

My hair looks like it's not there now when wet.. And the hairs are like short hairs.. What I mean is, when this thinning randomly hit, the hair in that area that was left over is short and the hairs that shed seemed to have not grown back. CRAZINESS.

Ziggyz123
03-26-2015, 02:40 PM
Oh and try Paul Mitchell tea tree, but after like a week of use try switching to one that's sls free

Dench57
04-06-2015, 02:39 PM
Hey again, yeah I have the exact same mindset with this. I wasn't even thinning or was my hairline even receded lol. I just wanted to prevent it because it's a widows peak. But yeah, got INSANELY thin on the left and my hairline literally burned itself off as well.

I heard anti depressants help inhibit substance p as well. I really wish others had the answer, but it HAS TO BE FINASTERIDE. Have you felt hornier? When this started for me I did feel hornier and it has since calmed down, however when I used fin from the beginning my morning would went away and now it's back.. The testosterone might be what's causing all this.

I've definitely had increased sex drive, my hair and skin gets oily really quickly too when it never did before. No question it's finasteride - I went to a pharmacist and he said he had another user who had itchy scalp after using it too. I'm so angry that this isn't even listed as a side effect. I guess the only positive is I don't think I have Post-Finasteride Syndrome, google that, it's some scary shit. I've only got myself to blame really for believing the forums and the studies that this was basically a harmless drug.

I've tried several different shampoos now, Regenepure, Tea Tree Oil, Margo Alive (capsicum extracts inhibits substance P apparently) but none of them work. I get my blood tests back in a few days but I'm not expecting anything to show up. I need to see a dermatologist who specializes in hair/scalp problems. The doctors I have seen are just saying "I'm sure it will resolve itself" but I'm not just gonna sit around and wait. Whether it's anti-depressants, corticosteroids or whatever I refuse to live with this itch and am determined to beat it. It's eating away at my hairline, the itch is 24/7 all along my hairline and I can see the damage its doing, my hairs right at the hairline are sort of frazzled and wiry, not straight and smooth. This means they're getting battered by DHT from what I've read online. The spot where the itch is worse above my right temple has thinned so much. I'm really hoping this spot can recover if/when I beat this itch but from what you're saying the regrown hairs will be miniaturised.

Kinda just accepted the fact I'll need a hair transplant within the next 5 years or so if this continues at the same rate and doesn't recover. Can't even believe I'm typing that, could've gone 10 years or so the way I was going before Fin. I already know no internal medication will work for me, I've heard more bad things than good about minox for frontal receding, and stuff like Spiro and RU just isn't an option for me. I'm going travelling for 6months+ soon and I won't be able to sustain any sort of topical regimen.

Ziggyz123
04-06-2015, 04:24 PM
So Dench, you quit and it's still that bad? My hairline got BAD for 6 months (still thin), but my painful scalp is just hear and there now. I really feel for you because i had/have this shi*. I'm about ready to finally quit finasteride.. I haven't had regrowth and had a massive shed with thinning that is still going on, although not as bad(20hairs in shower$20+out).

Keep us posted on the blood work brother.

fee
04-08-2015, 05:47 AM
Hi i know mainly men have commented here but i would just like some advice on saw palmetto and if i could be directed to a suitable thread for women that would be great, Ive looked but cant find!
I am a woman who up until last year at age 35 had 10 times more hair that i do now. people used to say looked like nic sherzinger which i would happily have taken! Its funny but as soon as i hit 35 i noticed my hairline creep back back in less than 6 months and by the time i hit 36 i had lost half my hair and hairline had jumped back an inch. was mortified. I also started with the insatiable itching. excress grease. At the time i just aplied oils and thought that this was what it needed but it didnt work/

My hair never seemed to fall either. it was so confusing and stressful as i would have preffered to have a shed all the time but no shedding at all! It sheds less now than ever.
Last three months well.. that was when i entered HELL. I began to get the most intense PAIN all over the scalp with itching like had nits. Not a great time for relationships as i was sitting with ice cubes on head for weeks with aloe vera stuck to it other nights. Nothing worked.

I know deep down (as im mixed asian white) that it had to be hereditary and not the telogen efluvium type loss as no hair was coming out yet now i can SEE THROUGH to my scalp! The hairline is receding at a rate of weeks , last month it wasnt as bad and the month before .. The follicle looks like it getting smaller and smaler and then falling out.

This is killing me,

I have been a model with extra thick hair and now i cant even part it right ot have it in a pony as it just looks crap.

I did try all the shampoos and i will say that the pain and ithcing has reduced IMMENSLEY. the shampoo is by a guy called David sacthell and its called eucaderm.. the stuff has only 3 or 4 ingredients in and basically has stopped me wanting to kill myself on an evening from the intense pain. the shampoo was number 3 . Any way i am hoping to now try saw palmetto but reallly worried about the side effects. i dont want to try something that might harm my body and make it worse and ive heard so many good things about it but they say when you stop it all falls out.

Also the HLCC range i tried the shampoo and it was crap , it made the itching worse but they do a product with SP in and was thinking of trying that.

I can copy and paste this thread to another thread if need be and am in the wrong place for advice but really need to know more about SP before i try it. the HLCC rep told me i shouldnt take if wanting to concieve as it could harm the unborn foetus and also cant give blood when taking it which really worries me but i cant take this hair thing anymore!!

Thank you xx

Ziggyz123
04-08-2015, 06:29 AM
Fee, have you had your thyroid checked lately? When I first started trying to figure out what it was that did this to me as well, thyroid Hairloss was identical to what you and I describe. I had mine checked and it was within normal range so that isn't my problem, but definately have yours checked.

fee
04-08-2015, 06:59 AM
Fee, have you had your thyroid checked lately? When I first started trying to figure out what it was that did this to me as well, thyroid Hairloss was identical to what you and I describe. I had mine checked and it was within normal range so that isn't my problem, but definately have yours checked.

Hi thanks for repying.. I have just had it checked last week and literally ringing up for results today. Its always "normal" but i spoke to my acupuncturist yest and he said that have a few done over the year and look at the variations in Leutenizing hormone, Ferrratin and TSH and if they change range even slightly (the doctors only care if its OTT) then its a sign that things are not stable within the body. But i kind of didnt need him to tell me that ,you know? I think we all know that changes are happening and its not the good kind. :-(

Dench57
04-11-2015, 12:13 PM
So Dench, you quit and it's still that bad? My hairline got BAD for 6 months (still thin), but my painful scalp is just hear and there now. I really feel for you because i had/have this shi*. I'm about ready to finally quit finasteride.. I haven't had regrowth and had a massive shed with thinning that is still going on, although not as bad(20hairs in shower$20+out).

Keep us posted on the blood work brother.

Yeah I quit 2 months ago after being on Fin for 3 months. Itch is still as bad as ever. I went for a haircut today and my temples have receded so much. The hair is so thin I can see my scalp above the right temple, where the itch has been worst. Before Fin that area was completely thick.

I got my blood results back but they didn't show DHT levels, I'm seeing my doctor tomorrow to ask if I can be checked for DHT. My testosterone was really high, the normal range is between 8-29 nmol/l and mine is 28.5.

Ziggyz123
04-11-2015, 02:52 PM
Dench, I've been thinking that the increase in test is responsible for that frontal loss. Idk what to do anymore man. I'm making a second app for the endocrinologist. I'll keep you updated so maybe we can figure this out

Dench57
04-13-2015, 10:57 AM
It's possible, but it still doesn't explain the intense burning/itchy scalp. Maybe if my Test was through the roof, but it's still in the normal range although at the high end. My Test should've returned to baseline level after 2 months off anyway, I can't believe Fin could cause permanent increase to Test otherwise bodybuilders and all sorts of people would be using the stuff! I'd like to see my DHT levels. I'm going to see a dermatologist in a few weeks so hope they can shed some light. Personally I'm convinced that Fin has made my androgen receptors more sensitive to both Test and DHT, hence the hairloss, burning/itchy scalp, oiliness and increased sex drive. I don't know if even a dermatologist will be able to confirm that though.

If you're still on Fin I'd advise coming off it for a month or so and seeing if that improves things. For you the increased Test while on Fin could be the cause, obviously I'm 2 months off Fin now so the increased Test shouldn't be that much of an issue and I'm thinking there's something more going on. I think people like me and you are just poor responders and I know it definitely had an adverse effect on my hair and my hormones. Wish I'd never touched the stuff. Can I ask how old you are? I'm 25, and from what I've read online younger men are more susceptible to this reflex-hypo type stuff due to having more sensitive endocrine systems and more hormones in general.

Anyway while I wait to see my dermatologist I'm gonna continue looking for a remedy. I've bought various medicated shampoos like Alphosyl today and will try them out, and have also ordered Scalpicin but that's only in the US apparently so will take weeks to arrive from Amazon. I've been through Tea Tree Oil, Regenepure DR and Margo Alive so far, none worked and the Margo Alive stuff actually made it worse.

My scalp has no redness or inflammation so it's not gonna be fixed by the usual dandruff/dry/itchy scalp shampoos, it's an internal/hormonal thing that's irritating my hair follicles. I found a page about menopausal women who have scalp itch due to hormone changes so figured what works for them might work for us. Here's the link. (http://www.theperimenopauseblog.com/natural-remedies-for-itchy-scalp-in-perimenopause/) I'm gonna try some of that Clobex and also the DHS Zinc shampoo. I'm reluctant to try the hydroxyzine after looking at the cognitive side effects.

Ziggyz123
04-13-2015, 11:49 AM
Hey Dench, I'm 23. But yeah, it's definately from finasteride and I'm with you 100%. I did quit fin for like two weeks but ended up back on in fear of losing more hair.. My scalp also showed no redness or anything like that. It burned,itched,stung, and just felt like someone was constantly pushing on my scalp in spots. I would quit fin, but who knows what will happen then.. You have more balls then I do man. However, I've read about some users that thinned due to propecia such as irishpride, and he quit and got better.. It's all a crap shoot. I wish people were aware of this and what is going on. But my Hairloss was extremely minuscule before fin. I had slight recession on my right side.. Now my left side receded and all behind it is thinned out like some disease ripped through it..

Dench57
05-04-2015, 09:27 AM
Hey Ziggy, hows it going?

I'm still the same, in fact I'd say the scalp itch is even worse. I've been referred to a dermatologist but they say it could be months before I get an appointment...even then I doubt they'll be able to help me. I feel like I've tried every medicated shampoo/oil under the sun. The problem doesn't look like it's going to resolve itself, so I'm reluctantly looking at stronger solutions...topical anti-androgens.

As I've stated before I think this scalp itch/burn, and the resulting hairloss, is a sign that Fin has upregulated my androgen receptors and now DHT/Test is attacking my hair follicles at an accelerated rate to before Fin. So the only option I've got now is to apply some topical anti-androgens that will hopefully block the DHT on my scalp while not giving me systemic, hormonal and long-term adverse effects like Fin has. I'm looking at stuff like Spiro, RU, Fluridil. Really reluctant because of my terrible experience with Fin, and all this stuff comes with its own sides, and seeing how unlucky I was with Fin I have a feeling I'll get the full sides from these too. Man-breasts here I come...

Failing that then it would have to be hardcore internal drugs like Flutamide/Bicalutamide which block androgen receptors altogether...and the sides from those don't even bear thinking about.

Ziggyz123
05-04-2015, 10:10 AM
Hey dench, man I'm so sorry to hear about your position because I literally wanted to die when mine started. Not going to lie, I would curl up and just cry because of the rapid loss and pain in my scalp. For me, I feel that the combination of using hair gel/spray, washing it out of my hair morning and night, and using minox dried my hair out a shit ton and caused a type of dermatitis. Unfortunately, I had to stop minox and I've been steadily losing hair from that for like 5 months, but somehow I can still hide this.

I forget, but we're you using minoxidil? Also, I was on generic fun and switched to proscar.. Not sure if it was all coincidence, but the pain slowly and I mean SLOWLY, has gone away. I use tea tree oil shampoo to control inflammation now, and rarely use gel and if I do it's an organic gel I got without ppg, etc.. I'm now looking to get a transplant for two reasons.
#1 to thicken my widows peak so I don't have to worry about it receding anymore and #2 so I can shave my head and let my scalp breathe and sort of heal. I read a lot of people with dermatitis variations have to shave down while its at its worst.

I really wish you the best man. I wish there was a cure and I do believe if setipiprant ever makes it on the market, these issues will be taken care of. Let me know if you just need to talk man, I'll respond when I get the notification.

Also, I have a dermatologist appointment tomorrow so I'll show him this thread and see what he thinks. Maybe he can give me an answer for you since you can't seem to get an appointment with one.

Talk to you soon dude!

Ziggyz123
05-04-2015, 10:11 AM
Sorry about the spelling! I'm on my phone!

Ziggyz123
05-15-2015, 09:00 AM
Hey Dench, how's your head feeling lately? I'm on the verge of quitting finasteride because my temples itch and I don't want a repeat of what happened this past November.

You see any doctors or get some relief??

mic28
05-21-2015, 04:17 AM
Hey Guys,

This is my first ever post on here and after reading through the whole post I thought I'd chip in.

I started finasteride in April 2014, didn't notice any changes, just a decent shed and then the scalp began to itch. Around November however, the itch suddenly left and my scalp felt great. In this time the dermatologist did her test and realised that my testosterone was high and wanted to confirm it was the finasteride. Stopped the finasteride in December for about 5 weeks, noticing hair loss around the end of that 5 week period

After getting blood work back my testosterone was back down showing that it was the finasteride causing this elevated testosterone. I started back on the finasteride, taking my 1.25mg daily. I had a bit of sheedding and itchiness but nothing too bad. In March I was given plaquenil for apparent lichen planopilaris in my back of scalp. In April I had a massive shed. Within a week went from no bald spots except for my crown to massive diffuse thinning throughout. I had been thinning since going back on the finasteride in January, but nothing to this extent.
Now it's May and I am still shedding with the inflamed and heavily itchy scalp. Can't relieve it and and diffuse thinned all over. A couple of days ago i jumped up to 2.5mg of finasteride as I heard that this can stop the itching. It could go either way tho.

Got a dermatologist appointment again on the 29th May but not sure what they'll be able to do

Dench57
05-21-2015, 04:50 AM
Hey Ziggy,

Firstly thanks for the kind words and support. Things are just getting worse, the scalp pain/itch is still constant everyday and seems to have "progressed" from above my temples to right behind my hairline in the middle too. So that area is now getting thinner everyday. Pretty much in a living nightmare right now, as soon as I wake up I just feel it and it dominates my thoughts all day, everyday. I would give anything to make it stop but having looked into this "upregulation" business and read some studies where Fin users still had upregulated ARs after 5 years off stopping...I fear I may have to live with this for a long, long time.

I'm using Fluridil once a day and topical spiro once or twice a day, along with Tricomin, which all make my hair look even worse. No effect yet but it's only been 2 weeks or so. Makes me so depressed that I brought this on myself with Fin, I would give anything to go back in time and not take that pill. Back in October I was a NW1 without a care in the world, thinking if Fin had sides I could just come off it. Now I'm a NW2 going on 2.5 with thinning at the front, and having to apply topicals every day in a desperate attempt to stop it.

I've never used minox btw. All I've ever wanted was to just maintain the hair that I have. I have plans to go travelling in Asia and Australia in November for over a year, so I dread to think what will happen to my hair in that time since I probably won't be able to commit to a topical regimen. I don't even know if I'll be able to go if this scalp pain continues. All my savings may have to go on a hair transplant instead...at the age of 25 when I was a NW1 a year ago. It is literally ruining my life.

I'm still on the waiting list to see a dermatologist since early April, as I'm in the UK the NHS waiting list may take months. So I've asked my GP to refer me to a private endocrinologist which will cost several hundred pounds, maybe thousands. I don't even know if they can help me but I need the advice of a specialist medical professional rather than just forums and internet research.

How are you doing? Are you still on Fin? If so you're a braver man than me!

Dench57
05-21-2015, 04:56 AM
There's also loads of new treatments on the horizon, like CB/BIM/Setipiprant. If I could just hold on to what I have for a few years (which I probably would've before Fin!) then those could be the best MPB treatments in 20 years. Wishful thinking I guess.

Ziggyz123
05-21-2015, 08:12 AM
Mic28,

I actually suspected that my increased shedding/itch/inflammation was due to the testosterone increase at the one year mark for me. However, I never came off the drug. But like you, my hair was fine and then when the itch and inflammation started, it took just one week to thin out my entire left side.

Dench,

What's up man. I'm so sorry about your burning and inflammation. I am still on finasteride, but I really don't think this drug is helping as my whole head has been thinning and shedding since November (7months). I was on minox and quit because I thought maybe it contributed to this pain and what not so idk if my shed that I'm having is from that or finasteride.. It really sucks, but like mic28, we gotta get out hormone levels checked out. I'm going to do this in the next week, but my money is tight right now.

As for the transplant, that's all I think about anymore. I'm just so scared that this will all happen again next year and I'll be worse. I just can't believe what happened to us. Even my dermatologist thought it was dermatitis from minoxidil, but deep down I kind of know finasteride did this..

Anyway, I'll keep searching for answers. And new treatments are on the horizon! Kind of counting on setipiprant because it may suppress the inflammation and itch factor and let the hair grow freely and abundantly! Bim I don't know about as they have been withholding the results. And cb I really haven't read to much on.

mic28
05-21-2015, 12:55 PM
Ziggy and Dench, it's good to have others in the same position for support...even though it's an awful position at that!

Not sure where my next step is. Considering going off plaquenil in the hope that somehow this may cut down on the itching/hairloss but I'm just living in hope. Also hoping that this could just be a massive fin shed and my hairs are just in the resting phase. Only hope I really have was that my itching did subside a while back while on finasteride.

Just looked in the mirror and can see a bald shining scalp right the way through my hair...time is ticking and I can't think of where to go! I don't understand how some people have such a good response from increased testosterone and lowered dht, yet a few have a bad response but also delayed. Maybe this going for broke 2.5mg a day is wrong but I'm clutching at straws here

Dench57
05-22-2015, 05:21 AM
From what I've heard CB is basically a side-free RU. Crazy expensive right now and no stable vehicle for it I don't think. Even if those new treatments do make it, and are better than anything now, we still won't have them for at least a few years. At the rate my hair is deteriorating now, I dread to think what I'll be even a year from now. So bitter that I could've just left my hair and it would've been fine for a few years. Now it is SO aggressive. With new treatments and transplants getting better/more affordable, every year you can prolong the loss is precious.

The only thing giving me the slightest hope is just telling myself I can get a hair transplant in the future. 6 months ago that hadn't even crossed my mind, it was a last resort. Now I've accepted I have no choice, NO medication or topical is going to work for me. So even if I do get a transplant I'll still be losing hair and have to get more. I'd never really looked into transplants much before...but I have today and apparently you can never get anywhere near the natural density back. It's just not possible. My hair has always been really thick and curly and nothing will ever bring that back, which makes every day with this itching pain and receding even more unbearable. I also didn't realise how much it costs. Been using some of the calculators and it's quoting me anywhere between 3,000-10,000. That's just for filling in above temples and a bit of the hairline. With some hair that will look thin and unnatural anyway. Its really not the guaranteed, complete recovery solution I was hoping it was. There's also people who just aren't viable candidates for it, which I may be one of (even though I will always have shitloads of thick hair at back and sides if I'm like my dad and grandad)

Anyway, sorry for the rant, this isn't really the place for that, we're all going through a shitty time. Just gotta blow off steam cos you guys are going through similar stuff! Shedding and thinning for 7 months on Fin Ziggy that sounds awful. Have you thought about stopping it for a while just to see what happens? It can't be worse than what's already happening? Like you said, there are stories of people who come off and are actually better off.

mic28
05-24-2015, 03:29 PM
Hey Dench, I was thinking of maybe trying vitamin B5 to see if that clears the itch. Have you heard much about this?

Ziggyz123
05-24-2015, 06:05 PM
Yeah dench, I also never thought about a transplant until I became bad with finasteride. And yeah I thought quitting, but my brother does have a receding hairline and I know I'm headed down that route so finasteride ( even though I'm not doing well on it ) gives me a slight peace of mind.

I don't know what the further holds for my and your hair hair. I do know for certain that this must have been hyperandrogenitcity because I did get the increased sex drive at the time of this shed and inflammation. Also, as crazy as this is going to sound, when I got the increased sex drive I swear to you my d*** got fatter and I was like, what the hell? This must be finasteride causing a hormonal imbalance.

Dench57
05-26-2015, 05:16 AM
Hey Dench, I was thinking of maybe trying vitamin B5 to see if that clears the itch. Have you heard much about this?

I take Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) daily because it "regulates hormonal activity" and I read in a hairloss thread that it has mild anti-androgen properties. Doesn't seem to be doing anything. I doubt it's anywhere near strong enough for how severe my scalp pain is.

Never heard of Vitamin B5 for hairloss...just googled it and it's mostly threads of people thinking it caused hairloss.

Ziggyz123
06-08-2015, 01:37 PM
Hey dench, any update on how you're doing? I rarely really have the pain I had, but I get this slight itch where I'm thinning. I'm not lying when I say I lost 60% of my hair on this. It's actually such a weird loss that my part has changed on my head and I can't brush my hair over how I used to. It just falls to the side of my head and shows my thinning. I'm at a loss man. Even for me, I wanted to get a transplant to fix my hairline, but my thinning is like all over the place behind my hairline. I wish I never touched fin. I'm going to my primary doc tomorrow to request hormone blood work for t and dht because I feel like fin isn't even having a slight effect on me anymore.

Dench57
06-09-2015, 03:12 AM
Hey Ziggy.

I would say I'm at rock bottom but things are only gonna get worse. Everyday the pain and itching is constant and unbearable. Even though it's been about 7 months, the magnitude of what's happening to me still hasn't really sunk in. What started as a relatively harmless (I thought) attempt to slow down my NW0.5 has turned into a living nightmare. I feel like it's a bad dream that I'm going to wake up from tomorrow. I fantasize about my life before taking that pill, how carefree and happy I was.

I hear what you're saying about not being able to hide the recession like you used to. Thats happened to me in the last few weeks - I used to be able to cover my temple recession completely so any normal person wouldn't know I was receding. In the space of 3 months that whole area is now completely see-through and looks awful. When you look in the mirror and see how much of an impact hairloss has on your appearance, and knowing it will never improve, only get worse - thats when it hits home and despair just takes over.

I've even made a post on the infamous propeciahelp.com to see if anyone's had similar persistent sides. Man that site is the most depressing shit I've ever read and makes me regret taking Propecia even more. One guy with reflex-hyper said his endocrine system "crashed" about 6 months after stopping Fin and he got PFS. I can't even allow myself to think thats gonna happen, its too scary. One other guy on Regrowth.com had reflex-hyper for over 5 months just from 2 weeks on Propecia. I took it for 3 months! Everybody is different though...I just have to try and stay positive and hope that I'll be a lucky one who recovers in a few months.

Have you considered trying RU? Thats the only real alternative to Fin/Dut/Minox I can see and has a different mechanism to 5AR inhibitors. Bottom line is androgens in my scalp are decimating my hair follicles - surely RU would help to stop that. But there's the problem - surely its just gonna cause your body to produce the same reflex-hyper reaction? It's such a gamble. Despite mixed reviews I'd definitely be trying it if it weren't for the fact I'm going travelling for over a year in November. There's no point in using it just for a few months. Then again if I'm still dealing with this by November I won't be able to go travelling.

Anyways, I'm seeing a private dermatologist next Wednesday (300 just for a consultation) and will post an update then. I'm not particularly hopeful.

Ziggyz123
06-09-2015, 09:22 AM
Dench, sorry to hear you're still having all of that inflammation :(. I did read some things about RU and how people have quit finasteride and maintained/regrew with RU. When this all started for me, the inflammation was sooooo terrible man. The weirder thing is, I developed like itchy bumps and then my hair like exploded out of this one area. The thing that really bothers me is that my left temple and hairline is so thinned out that my part somehow changed. Hairs that used to be brushed across my scalp now fall to the sides because there isn't enough hair to hold them up anymore.

I would try RU, but I can't use propylene glycol as a vehicle I don't think. When this shed happened and inflammation, I was still using minox, but had to quit because it was irritating me even worse. I just don't know what to do anymore either man! I really need a hormone panel, but then again what is that even going to prove? If they say, "oh you need something stronger" than I get dut and have an even stronger reflex down the road.

Another odd thing is I keep shedding hair and some have like dried sebum on it??? Strange.. Do you know if there are any remade RU solutions available? And let me know what the dermatologist thinks man because mine had no clue.

Dench57
06-10-2015, 06:53 AM
Same thing with me man, started with inflammation in one spot in particular, above my "parting" on right temple, has thinned out more than anywhere else. But like I said, there was no redness, flakiness, yellowy sebum buildup, bumpiness. No physicals signs of inflammation whatsoever. If you're getting bumps/dried sebum it sounds like a more straightforward inflammation, possibly seborrheic dermatitis, demodex, fungal infection or something else. Which should be treatable with medicated shampoo (coal tar, zinc, piroctone olamine, the list is endless) or hydrocortisone or something. Would definitely see a dermatologist if you are seeing signs of inflammation though, I'm no expert. I wish I was seeing physical signs of inflammation, ANYTHING would be better than just DHT straight up raping my follicles.

Yeah you can buy it premixed. I'm sure there are other vehicles available apart from PG but you'd have to ask in the big RU thread. I'm seriously tempted to try it because it looks like it works, and in theory should stop DHT binding to my receptors and thus stop the scalp itch/pain. But there's just way too many threads of people reporting all kinds of side effects, from the usual Fin-like sides, to bloodshot eyes, muscle spasms, heart palpitations etc which is just really scary considering it is an experimental drug not approved for human use. Though it's only topical it obviously still gets absorbed systemically. As with everything though I would probably be willing to try as long as there is no persistent/permanent sides...something people told me would never happen with Fin, and look how I ended up.

I just hate sitting here feeling so powerless to stop it. Topical spiro/fluridil/keto shampoo are doing nothing to reduce the scalp itch/pain after 6 weeks.

I don't know what your hormone levels will show, I reckon they will all be normal. Dutasteride is DEFINITELY not what you want, its just a stronger version of Fin and will cause an even stronger adverse effect.

Dench57
06-10-2015, 07:35 AM
Maybe this going for broke 2.5mg a day is wrong but I'm clutching at straws here

I really wouldn't advise taking higher doses of Finasteride. As far as I'm aware you're just increasing your chances of sides without any extra effect on your hair. Because of the "flat" dose-response curve of Finasteride 0.25mg about 90% as effective as 1.25mg a day, but with less severity of sides of course. There's loads of information/studies about this online.

I just read this quote from the RU thread which hit home pretty hard for me :


"you do have more to loose though. RU is without doubt, like finasteride, a long term commitment. all the literature suggests you can maintain on RU, even re-grow but that once you stop androgen receptors multiply in the scalp/follicle and become more sensitive.

ive seen this first hand. a friend used RU for 2 months - thought it wasnt working came off and bang his hairloss accelerated way quicker than it was because he'd been applying an AA to his scalp that played around with the mapping etc of the receptors in his scalp

its like fin - you've got to be on it full time and be prepared that if it doesn't work for you its going to really f things up and accelerate HL"

Using Fin permanently accelerated my MPB. If I don't use RU permanently it will just do the same. I'm at my wit's end here to be honest. Been spending so much time on hairloss forums the past year and the brutal truth is if Fin or Dut don't work for you, you are screwed. Even the extreme cost, time and hassle of a hair transplant, even if it is successful, will never restore anywhere near natural density and look. How is this lack of treatment possible in 2015?!

mic28
06-11-2015, 04:33 AM
Hey Dench,

So after upping my dose to 2.5mg daily for just over 2 weeks, I noticed a very oily scalp throughout the day. After reading up a bit more, I decided to drop down to 1.25mg EOD, therefore trying the opposite effect and trying to taper off slowly.
It's been a week or so of 1.25mg EOD and I've noticed a reduction in oil, however getting a lot of flakes off my scalp. Still very itchy at the mo but il keep this dose for the next month or so see how it pans out.

Dench57
06-11-2015, 09:27 AM
Hey Dench,

So after upping my dose to 2.5mg daily for just over 2 weeks, I noticed a very oily scalp throughout the day. After reading up a bit more, I decided to drop down to 1.25mg EOD, therefore trying the opposite effect and trying to taper off slowly.
It's been a week or so of 1.25mg EOD and I've noticed a reduction in oil, however getting a lot of flakes off my scalp. Still very itchy at the mo but il keep this dose for the next month or so see how it pans out.

Good luck with that. Definitely no need to take more than 1.25mg.

Scalp pain was off the charts today. Starting to sink it that this is probably permanent and I've basically kick-started permanent MPB into overdrive by trying Fin. FML

Ziggyz123
06-11-2015, 10:47 AM
Hmm, that's good that you raised the dosage and found that out. I read that some have gotten really good results with a low dosage so hopefully that will be the case with you.

Dench, did you ever try lowering your dosage? Or did you just quit immediately. When my scalp was at the point that I couldn't take anymore, I started tapering off. I did .5mg every two days for a week and then .25 for another week. Then, I gave in and went back to 1.25, but ever since then the pain isn't "as" bad. I've been debating going down on dosage lately, but I have to have the pharmacy call my doctor again and all that to get approval because they're idiots.

I wish I knew a way to stop it man.. Have you tried taking a HUGE dosage of vitamin D? I read a story somewhere that the person got scalp pain under control by take a lot of vitamin d. Idk anymore. My pain comes and goes, but today its prevalent which sucks. I've also read that for some it just takes time for the body to re adjust. I asked another derm about our situations yesterday and he said he couldn't explain the scalp pain lol. Such a joke.

mic28
06-11-2015, 04:03 PM
I don't think il really know how I get on until I give it a few weeks at this dosage. Already I'm seeing a reduction in oil but scalp still is itchy. I'm trying not to scratch as that's only going to exasperate things and I notice a lot more fall when that happens. I would take 0.5mg every day rather than 1.25 mg every other day but I can't cut my pill down much further.
Went to the dermatologist and she wants to hit it with a load of things at once. Small dose oral minoxidil to try hair re growth, with tacrolimus and topical steroids for the inflammation. Not sure I want to get started on the minoxidil orally but il definitely give the tacrolimus a go for the itching.

Ziggyz123
06-11-2015, 04:36 PM
Mic28, what's up man. I would definitely try the oral minox. I read that it is WAYYYYYY more beneficial than topical, but sides obviously. Try that and see if you respond though. I was thinking about trying to take that actually, but I don't know where I'd even get it at. I had to quit minox when this inflammation started with me :(. I started developing things like light rashes from Cologne, a rash under my armpit from deodorant, and a stye in my eye. My doc though it was the minoxidil causing my irritated scalp and what not.

What percentage did your doc recommend for the oral minoxidil? Also sounds like he/she kind of knows a thing or two about Hairloss since most don't.

mic28
06-11-2015, 08:07 PM
Hey Ziggy,

She's only starting me on 1mg due to blood pressure issues that can arise if too high a dose is given. From what I've read though the minimum amount anyone takes for hairloss is 5mg so don't know what effect it will have. Might be all I need though to kickstart what I have lost diffusely in the past few months which has been quit significant. Plus better to start off small see how I react to it.
I'm actually getting mine made up at a compound pharmacy specifically as they don't sell it here. Expensive enough tho. Sure il see how it goes they make a longer term decision on it.

Ziggyz123
06-11-2015, 09:45 PM
Yeah 1mg is pretty low. I hope you do good with it dude and then you're able to up the dosage. I think it's actually formulated in 2.5mg,5,&10mg. Keep me updated with it. May I ask where you're from that you found such a willing derm? Lol mine all suck

Dench57
06-12-2015, 02:46 AM
Dench, did you ever try lowering your dosage? Or did you just quit immediately. When my scalp was at the point that I couldn't take anymore, I started tapering off. I did .5mg every two days for a week and then .25 for another week. Then, I gave in and went back to 1.25, but ever since then the pain isn't "as" bad. I've been debating going down on dosage lately, but I have to have the pharmacy call my doctor again and all that to get approval because they're idiots.

I wish I knew a way to stop it man.. Have you tried taking a HUGE dosage of vitamin D? I read a story somewhere that the person got scalp pain under control by take a lot of vitamin d. Idk anymore. My pain comes and goes, but today its prevalent which sucks. I've also read that for some it just takes time for the body to re adjust. I asked another derm about our situations yesterday and he said he couldn't explain the scalp pain lol. Such a joke.

Hey Zig. Yeah I was 2 months on .5mg and then tapered down to 0.25mg for a month before coming off. Should have gone EOD though. I think I also screwed up by not tapering ON to the drug, as I think I shocked my system since I felt this reflex-hyper within 4 weeks of starting. Imagine if I'd followed Merck's instructions and taken 1mg straight away.

I haven't heard anything about Vitamin D, I'll look into it though thanks. Honestly there's just so many threads with one person saying "X stopped my scalp itch" but then 3 other people saying "X made my hair worse". It's such a gamble. I read through a big thread about people with oily scalp itch, who failed on Fin, taking low doses of Accutane and keeping their hair, completely cured of itch/pain and removing all excess oil and sebum. Got my hopes up. Then I saw countless other threads saying Accutane made all their hair fall out. Then you've got stuff like Spiro which MIGHT work but comes with horrific sides. I just wish it would resolve itself naturally :(

Currently I'm taking Vitamin B complex, Curcumin, Selenium, (all because I read they degrade or block ARs) along with Fluridil and topical Spiro. Not helping. I don't think I have anything that will be helped by anti-inflammatories, I've just kickstarted super-aggressive MPB which is what the scalp itch/burn represents. I'm considering trying a Keto mousse/topical and applying it to my hairline, just to see if it lessens the itch. Everyone with scalp itch says Nizoral helped them but it hasn't helped me.

That sucks about your derm man, that is honestly pathetic. I hope mine will at least have some answers for me (for 300 they better had) and something that can lessen the itch/pain. The amount I've researched this over the past 6 months though makes me have such low expectations that I can be treated.


I don't think il really know how I get on until I give it a few weeks at this dosage. Already I'm seeing a reduction in oil but scalp still is itchy. I'm trying not to scratch as that's only going to exasperate things and I notice a lot more fall when that happens. I would take 0.5mg every day rather than 1.25 mg every other day but I can't cut my pill down much further.
Went to the dermatologist and she wants to hit it with a load of things at once. Small dose oral minoxidil to try hair re growth, with tacrolimus and topical steroids for the inflammation. Not sure I want to get started on the minoxidil orally but il definitely give the tacrolimus a go for the itching.

Wow I'm surprised your derm suggested using oral minox, that is some heavy shit for something as "cosmetic" as hairloss. Can cause life-threatening heart problems if I remember right, and surely any hair gained from the oral minox will fall out when you stop using it, same as topical minox. Did you ever use topical minox Mic? At least she's taking it seriously and trying to be proactive though.

mic28
06-12-2015, 06:19 AM
I'm in Australia.

Yeah I tried topical minoxidil a while ago and thought it made things worse but perhaps I didn't give it a good enough shot. I've been considering buying 5% minoxidil with azaelic acid.

Ziggyz123
06-12-2015, 09:06 AM
Dench, one more thing! If your scalp is still oily high doses of vitamin A is supposed to pretty much cure that. I think a guy on *** was taking an extreme dose. Pretty sure it was Fred the Belgian. But yeah, my scalp isn't so oily. When I took fin I didn't taper on either. I accidentally took 5mg the first day too haha. But yeA, I hit every single side throughout my go with this drug. I also feel like inconsistent dosages with wuartering my pill is somehow contributing to this a bit. Also, I was on dr reddys and I read terrible stories of people losing all that they have gained on it. Idk though. We'll get this figured out man. I think about your case every day and wonder my scalp inflammation has calmed down. It just doesn't make sense and drives me insane to think that this can happen again to me :(.

How long have you been off of it? Not sure if you said that already. And I know this is going to be annoying, but I use emu oil at night from time to time and it does sort of soothe my scalp. I'm surprised though that fluridil didn't work as well as spiro. You need to get a hormone panel because your testosterone is most definitely out of control. If you could level it, maybe this would go away. Let me know about that derm you see man, good luck!

Dench57
06-13-2015, 10:16 AM
My hair gets oilier much quicker than before Fin. My scalp hurts even after I've just washed my hair and its completely dry and oil free though. I also saw this on the American Dermatologists website:


"Vitamin A: Too much vitamin A can cause hair loss. People can get too much of this vitamin through vitamin supplements or medicines. Once the body stops getting too much vitamin A, normal hair growth resumes."

Just so frustrating, so many treatments seem to do more harm than good. I wish everyday that I'd never got involved in this, its so depressing just constantly trawling through the forums looking for an answer. I might try emu oil but its such a mess isn't it? And considering I already apply topical spiro and fluridil it might not be practical. Worth a try though I guess. That would just be masking the problem though, I wish I could eliminate the cause and "cure" it but I'm afraid that might never happen, at least not for years, by which time all my hair will be gone.

I don't think uneven quartering of your pill can have much of an effect at all

I've been off it for 5 months now. I just can't imagine it ever stopping, not until its burnt all my hair away. I can't remember what it was like to not be able to "feel" your hair, to not be in pain and feel that itching/burning all day. The area above my right temple is so thin, within 3 months I won't be able to cover it at all and will just have a huge diffuse thinned patch there. I had literally no diffuse thinning before Fin, my hair was SO thick. The regret is just so hard to deal with. I feel like the unluckiest guy on the planet, tried a hairloss pill with a full head of hair and now its permanently destroying my hair. Punished for my vanity I guess.

I already had a blood test, it showed high testosterone (29 nmol/l, normal range is 5-28 nmol/l) but thats still fairly normal, certainly doesn't explain this scalp pain. I imagine my DHT is really high, but even if my levels are normal, it's my androgen receptors sensitivity that makes the androgens do x10 more damage than they did before Fin.

Ziggyz123
06-13-2015, 11:28 AM
Hey Dench,
Yeah I've read that post of vitamin A. However, literally everything causes Hairloss lol. It's a messed up world. I thought the same thing as you though. I'd wake up and wonder what it would be like if my scalp were numb. However, my scalp pain went away after 5months. I think I'm going to drop finasteride today cold turkey. I just realized i have been on it for 20 months without improving and I read a study that stated that men that did not receive good results by 12 months, did not receive any results by the end of the trial.

It's just hard to think that we are non responders. There are no options after fin so we are lost man. Sucks. But, everything you describe, I had. If shower and it would hurt after even with no oil on my scalp. It literally just started to dosappear one day so there is hope. Hopefully, the loss stops man. Mine receded SOOO far back. Almost like a new part formed on my head.

I don't expect to regrow after quitting fin, I just hope my hair doesn't thin anymore than it has. Hopefully we both stabilize soon because the only saving grace I have is a hair transplant.

Dench57
06-14-2015, 01:18 PM
Hey Dench,
Yeah I've read that post of vitamin A. However, literally everything causes Hairloss lol. It's a messed up world. I thought the same thing as you though. I'd wake up and wonder what it would be like if my scalp were numb. However, my scalp pain went away after 5months. I think I'm going to drop finasteride today cold turkey. I just realized i have been on it for 20 months without improving and I read a study that stated that men that did not receive good results by 12 months, did not receive any results by the end of the trial.

It's just hard to think that we are non responders. There are no options after fin so we are lost man. Sucks. But, everything you describe, I had. If shower and it would hurt after even with no oil on my scalp. It literally just started to dosappear one day so there is hope. Hopefully, the loss stops man. Mine receded SOOO far back. Almost like a new part formed on my head.

I don't expect to regrow after quitting fin, I just hope my hair doesn't thin anymore than it has. Hopefully we both stabilize soon because the only saving grace I have is a hair transplant.

That's whats so annoying, that every treatment comes with a slight chance of making your hair worse than if you hadn't done anything. I can say with absolutely certainty Fin has ****ed my hair up, possibly permanently. I would loved to have been a 'non-responder' but it actively made my hair worse rather that no change at all.

Thank you for the words of support man, I have to just keep believing that it will resolve itself eventually. When I see people saying they had it for years it makes me so depressed, I can't even comprehend having this for that long.

I definitely think you're making the right choice in dropping Fin, good for you. Comes a point when you have to accept it isn't helping you, I know that sucks because like you said, it's by far the best treatment we have.

The whole patch above my right temple, which has been constantly burning for 7 months now, is so frizzy and brittle and thin, and you can start to see the scalp even in normal light. Within a year that whole spot will be slick bald at this rate. Makes me so angry to think how great my hair would look now without Fin, I could/should've gone at least a few more years before treating it. Just got sucked up into thinking I had nothing to lose by trying Fin. Anyway I'm going to see the dermatologist on Wednesday so will let you know how that goes.

Dench57
06-15-2015, 02:52 AM
I thought the same thing as you though. I'd wake up and wonder what it would be like if my scalp were numb. However, my scalp pain went away after 5months..

Well it's been 8 months in total now and 5 months since stopping Fin, but obviously we're different because you were still on Fin the whole time right? Did it gradually go away or did you just wake up without it one day?

I'm surprised I still have any hair on my head given the intensity of the burn, just goes to show how fine I would've been for years without accelerating it like this.

mic28
06-15-2015, 05:09 AM
Do you know what in your regime stopped the itching Ziggy? And are you still deteriorating even without the itching?

Guys i am also thinking of stopping but will taper it down. Just afraid of giving up on my only real cure, but if it's not working then why should I continue. Il keep up the tacrilomus and lower dose of finasteride for a couple of weeks but this diffuse thinning and loss over my scalp is depressing!

Dench57
06-15-2015, 07:37 AM
Just bought some keto cream. Will try applying it at night for a little while and see if it helps with the burn/itch and let you know. I'm sure it will be a bitch to apply and will probably increase shedding though.

Ziggyz123
06-15-2015, 10:50 AM
Hey guys, I still get some itching here and there, but I stopped minoxidil back in December so that could have contributed to it. However, I was still in pain and had itching for like four months after I stopped it.. I used tea tree oil after nothing else would work and it somewhat calmed it down.

I have a theory about what may be apart of this whole reflex ordeal. Ok, so when I started fin, I experienced every single side effect throughout the first year.. 3 months in I had crazy loss of libido to the point where I could even feel my dick for like a week. I had brain fog and lethargy pretty much the whole time, but then summer came and coffee got me over that. Felt good for a while, started working out, but hurt my shoulder two months in and had to quit. Fast forward, to November which was the one year mark I started getting these like shooting pains that would last for a couple seconds and then stop. I'd get like 1-2 a day. This happened for about 3 days and then I went to style my hair in the morning and noticed I could see my scalp behind my hairline.. There were just short spiky hair there. The next day, I showered and lost BUTT LOADS OF HAIR. I mean like 150+ which never happened ever to me. Everything was irritating my scalp after that, every single shampoo, anything.

Anyway, my theory is that we experience sides and what not because the body has a new imbalance. Then, you start to slowly overcome these sides. And for some the body just levels out normally, but for us the body overshot. Finally, your body over shot and now your producing the amount of hormones that your body needs to create DHT, however taking fin still blocks most so we are stuck with either a shit ton of testosterone or our hormones are now permenantly off balance because they found a different pathway to overcome the suppression. Either way, I think that we overcame finasteride and now our body's are producing the amount of testosterone we need to convert into the amount of DHT we had before fin. Fin doesn't block all of that conversion anyway.

I need to get a hormone test done just like both of you guys. But, then what? My hair is f***** lol. Do I chance dutasteride and having an even worse reflex or quit and letting my hair take a hit still by letting all the DHT back. It's really a no win. But you guys understand that. The only possibility I can see is taking oral spiro with finasteride. That would pretty much beat out the increased test.

Dench57
06-15-2015, 04:00 PM
Propecia has completely ****ed us up man. Sitting in my bedroom right now, with a burning, itching scalp along my hairline. Wondering what kind of cruel ****ing joke it is that I took a little hairloss pill hoping to just slow my MPB, and instead it's permanently accelerated my balding and I'll probably have to live with this burning itch for years as a reminder of my stupidity and bad luck. I'm 25, my 20s were going to be the best years of my life..I had so many plans, it was all going so well until this. I try not think about life before Fin because it hurts too much. I just took normal hair/scalp for granted. Not that there's much point but I might post some pics to show the damage that's been done, especially in the worst area around my right temple.

I think me and you are in slightly different positions Ziggy, being that you've been on Fin for so long, and are still on it, when I was on it for just 3 months, and quit 5 months ago. So I hope whatever you're experiencing will resolve itself after stopping. Certainly most people with reflex-hyper recover within a month of stopping from what I've read. If you're desperate to fix your hair I'm sure you can find the right vehicle for RU, it's really the only option after Fin/Dut.

I'm not sure if it's anything to do with increased androgen production. You're still on Fin, so there's obviously no way you're gonna be producing more DHT. What I think is happening is the Fin has upregulated your androgen receptors so much, that the remaining DHT (20-30% of baseline) is now doing way more damage then pre-Fin. And I'm sure increased Test probably plays some part as well. I don't think Fin can permanently increase androgens, what it can do is permanently increase your sensitivity to androgens, which is what causes MPB in the first place. Definitely get your blood levels checked but I'll be surprised if they show anything out of the ordinary. Maybe an increase in Test....if thats the case then I think taking Dut is probably the worst thing you can do, it's just an even stronger 5AR inhibitor, and will boost your Test even more. Any adverse effects you're experiencing with Fin will be 3-4x worse on Dut, it's exactly the same mechanism afaik. It also inhibits Type 1 (Fin just inhibits Type 2) which is linked to important brain functions, could be serious long term problems. And you know how many stories there are of "Dut destroyed my hairline", me and you know too well from our experience that shit would happen to us.

After my experience with Fin I'm really, really reluctant to take anything like oral Spiro which flat-out suppresses Testosterone, the most important androgen that makes a man a man. I really just want it to resolve itself naturally. I've been burnt badly enough by ****ing around with anti-androgens, and Spiro is a much more potent anti-androgen than Fin. But in moments of weakness, like right now when the itching is so bad, I say to myself "**** it, ANYTHING to make this stop" and would consider running the risk of gyno, weight gain, erectile dysfunction, fatigue, brain fog, dick shrinkage (all pretty likely on Spiro) just to make this stupid MPB itch stop. How ****ed up is that. How did it come to this?

Ziggyz123
06-15-2015, 06:22 PM
Dench, I was just reading some more and read a lot on dutasteride. It also lead me to some studies and what not and one said that type 1dht is present in the sebum glands.. You said your scalp was oily so many you actually need dutasteride. Some genotype a don't respond at all to fin.

Another thing was, the doctor that did the biopsy test on men that took fin before/after and found increased AR also did a study that showed increased receptor levels in the front of the scalp. I actually don't think testosterone is the cause of this. Your body in fact could have made more receptors. I know that retin-A downregulates them over time, but when I saw my general doc she told me that people's hormones cycle differently and that some have a change every year. That would explain me and also, your body might downregulate them when your hormones cycle. Could be another 4 months. It definitely won't last forever.

Bad thing for me is I stayed on and now I could have even worse of a shed at 2 year mark. I think I may experiment and see lol. I already lost so much and get random shooting pains with hair loss in those spots. I actually might get a biopsy and test it again when I hit the two year mark. We need something that downregulates receptors quickly. You might respond extremely well to Ru, but of course that's experimental. This sucks. I'm developing like a new part that shows thinning all the way back to my spiral. It's like I'm developing an outline for guys that only keep the ring of hair around there heads. It's bull shit because my dad has a full head of hair and my brother had a receding hairline that I always tried to avoid getting and now mine is getting worse!

jamesst11
06-15-2015, 07:20 PM
I have to keep saying, I feel you guys, because EVERY SINGLE THING you are saying is bringing back horrible memories of when I had telogen effluvium!! I know I have mentioned this before, but don't follow closely enough... Did you guys completely rule that out? The hair follicles are extremely susceptible to significant changes in the body... taking fin is a significant change. If it caused your hormone levels to drop significantly or raise significantly (in the cause of hyper) then this is a significant insult to your body. It often responds by shifting a larger percentage of your hair follicles into the resting state. You can read all you want about how it occurs 3-4 months after the inciting factor, and how it lasts for 6-10 months, or how it can be acute or chronic... but I don't believe it's always this simple and MY PERSONAL cases of TE show this.

jamesst11
06-15-2015, 07:24 PM
Also, It may reassure you to know that the human body has an amazing capable to repair itself and return to homeostasis... YOU WILL NOT have burning and itching forever. YOU WILL NOT continue massive sheds forever. It's a horrible b*tch and I watched it destroy my hair, every day. Even though I have MPB on top of it, things gradually get better. With hair, it sucks, because it takes a LOT OF TIME!! Your hair is growing at the rate of 1/4-1/2 per month. New regrowth starts thinner and is hard to notice. Be patient. Let your body heal itself. The ONE THING that PERPETUATED my hair loss was stress and depression OVER HAIR LOSS!!

Ziggyz123
06-15-2015, 08:18 PM
Yeah I definitely had TE, but now my hairline is screwed and I had to quit minox due to irritation so I have a double whammy there. Dench, you should try topical finasteride. James, saw you posted on Desmond's thread. I always thought topical fin didn't work? If it indeed does work, Dench this would help the both of us.

Dench57
06-16-2015, 03:02 AM
Another thing was, the doctor that did the biopsy test on men that took fin before/after and found increased AR also did a study that showed increased receptor levels in the front of the scalp. I actually don't think testosterone is the cause of this. Your body in fact could have made more receptors. I know that retin-A downregulates them over time, but when I saw my general doc she told me that people's hormones cycle differently and that some have a change every year. That would explain me and also, your body might downregulate them when your hormones cycle. Could be another 4 months. It definitely won't last forever.

Bad thing for me is I stayed on and now I could have even worse of a shed at 2 year mark. I think I may experiment and see lol. I already lost so much and get random shooting pains with hair loss in those spots. I actually might get a biopsy and test it again when I hit the two year mark. We need something that downregulates receptors quickly. You might respond extremely well to Ru, but of course that's experimental. This sucks. I'm developing like a new part that shows thinning all the way back to my spiral. It's like I'm developing an outline for guys that only keep the ring of hair around there heads. It's bull shit because my dad has a full head of hair and my brother had a receding hairline that I always tried to avoid getting and now mine is getting worse!

Increased ARs in the scalp is definitely the culprit and the reason that many people actually get worse when they try Fin. Like you said, we need something to downregulate/degrade ARs in the scalp (Fluridil claims this but I call bullshit), but thats easier said than done. RU just blocks ARs and I've read it will just cause the same increased sensitivity for when you ever come off it. And it certainly doesn't look like something you can stay on forever.

I'm in the same boat with the receding man, it's gone so far past what it should've been at this stage. One of my friends has had a receding hairline for years, I remember looking at him and thinking how much worse his was than mine, now 6 months later I've overtaken him. All my relatives have exactly the same NW3 frontal recession in their 50s, but I'm going to surpass all of them within the next 5 years due to this.

Dench57
06-16-2015, 03:14 AM
Yeah I definitely had TE, but now my hairline is screwed and I had to quit minox due to irritation so I have a double whammy there. Dench, you should try topical finasteride. James, saw you posted on Desmond's thread. I always thought topical fin didn't work? If it indeed does work, Dench this would help the both of us.

I can say I definitely haven't had TE. Never experienced a noticeable increase in shedding. I have no signs of redness, inflammation, sebum buildup, flakiness or dandruff, so it's just a mega "androgenetic itch" I have internally as DHT destroys my hair follicles.

As for topical finasteride, I was interested in Desmond's threat. But I wouldn't even know where to begin concocting that kind of formula, and as far as I'm aware topical Fin isn't very effective, otherwise surely it would be a mainstream topical along with Rogaine, for the millions of people who won't take oral Fin due to the sides? I'm sceptical as to why it's never taken off, there must be a reason. I'm also wondering if, like RU, by inhibiting DHT even locally I'd still get the same "upregulation" of androgen receptors, rendering the treatment useless, and harmful if I came off it, same as oral Fin.

MancBoy
06-16-2015, 06:41 AM
along with itchy scalp do any of you guys get yellow puss spots in your hairline?

This itch is horrid but it is definitely related to my hairloss as it moves backwards with my hairline

Dench57
06-16-2015, 06:45 AM
No, I have no physical signs of inflammation.

That sounds like it could be a fungal infection. Seb derm, folliculitis, demodex or something. Suggest you see your GP.

mic28
06-18-2015, 10:22 PM
How are you going Ziggy and Dench?

Ziggyz123
06-18-2015, 11:53 PM
Hey mic, I'm in the same spot pretty much. I think most of my shedding is from the cessation of minoxidil 6 months ago. I actually have a question for you.. Did you try oral minox yet? I'm really thinking of trying it to see if I can regrow some minox hair I lost. As for the scalp pain, I get random soreness once in a while but I'm living so that's a good thing. Besides that, how are you holding up?

mic28
06-19-2015, 06:08 AM
Hey Ziggy,

I haven't started oral minoxidil yet as I've only been prescribed 100 tablets at the moment of 0.5mg and I don't want to run out prior to seeing my dermatologist again. I will start in a couple of weeks.

As far as shedding is concerned, I have good and bad days. I'm seeing hair fall and getting some itching but not as bad as a month ago. Perhaps I was just going through a horrendous shed but maybe I'm just being hopeful. What I don't understand though is that I diffused so quickly, surely those hairs which fall out should miniaturise rather than completely fall out never to regrow?

Still unsure what to do with regards my finasteride dose. Still trying the 1.25mg every other day. Also started using tricolimus for the past week. Doesn't seem to be doing much except for maybe making my scalp itchier but I don't believe a week is long enough to assess.

Ziggyz123
06-19-2015, 11:09 AM
Yeah I hear you on the shedding aspect.. My hair got bad rather fast when the shedding started for me. I have a strong feeling the stopping minox is the cause for my shedding currently though. I was recently reading some threads at hair loss talk and a couple of guys went on DUT and had some itching, but they're regrowth was terrific regardless.

Some things that you could do would be to try and have the test done that tells you if you will respond to FIN, try dutasteride (I know it seems scary), and lastly you might just have a dry scalp that you think isn't dry. My derm gave me aveeno Nourish+dandruff control and it does kind of restore your hair. However, I think I have seb. Dermatitis now so it can only use it for like 2 days and then I switch to JJ baby shampoo.

Ziggyz123
06-19-2015, 11:43 AM
I'm with you though man. I definitely am not responding to fin. It's almost like my body was trying to fight it and then when it came time for me to naturally shed seasonally, I had so much upregulation that it just wasted my hair. I actually did notice increased body hair growth to on my legs and my knuckles which was odd. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten blood work for any of this. Just had it done for anemia, thyroid, etc.. No hormone panel

jamesst11
06-19-2015, 09:54 PM
Man, you are making me nervous Ziggy! I started over 3 months ago, and so far, haven't noticed too much. I do get a slight itch and a bit of tingling, but I don't remember if I had that before too. My libido is very slightly decreased, as in I can go a day or two without sex/masterbation and I don't get super horny, like I used too. Other than that, everything is hard to tell. I think I am shedding more on the sides of my head and all of them have a white bulb, but I am shedding less on the top? I feel less depressed than I used too. My skin looks amazing. When I play basketball or work out, I am more focused and aggressive.... I don't know, this stuff is kinda crazy. I am not 100% sure what aspects of these are in my head too.

Dench57
06-23-2015, 02:49 PM
Hey guys,

So I went to see the dermatologist the other day. She basically thinks whatever I have can't be attributed to taking Propecia. It's not really surprising, everyone on hairloss forums have told me medical specialists will have no solution or explanation to this incredibly rare reaction. She said that people with androgenic alopecia do not suffer from burning/tingling/itchy sensations, that its nothing to do with MPB. I guess there's no scientific explanation as to what exactly causes "MPB itch", it's just a thing everybody on hairloss forums reports. She looked at my scalp and did admit there was significant miniaturization and thinning where the burning is the worst. I'm still certain that what I have is due to DHT and massively upregulated androgen receptors - I'm going to see an endocrinologist on Friday and will ask for a blood test to check my DHT. I don't even know if you can test for androgen receptor sensitivity but I will ask.

Her clinical impression was that I have atypical pain syndrome - same principle as burning scalp syndrome I imagine - "substance P" and various chemicals/neurotransmitters getting confused and sending pain signals to the brain. She prescribed me Amitriptyline to take 10mg daily, and gradually increasing my dose. This is a tricylic anti-depressant which will supposedly help with the pain and itchiness in my scalp. She also prescribed Betacap, a corticosteroid, to be applied twice daily to my scalp. She also said to stop using ketoconazole shampoo because it is not useful in treating MPB (everyone on here knows keto is mildly useful) and to start using T-Gel sensitive shampoo daily instead. I'll follow her instructions but I'm not hopeful.

I'm trying to keep an open mind but I'm almost certain neither of these things will work. I would honestly love it to be atypical pain syndrome, ANYTHING apart from what I think it is (massively accelerated MPB). The anti-depressant may subdue the pain somewhat but it will just be masking the underlying problem - the accelerated hairloss will continue even if I'm blocking out the pain. I can't even believe I'm having to take anti-depressants, I have no history of clinical depression and was the happiest guy in the world until this burning itch started. And to think all the side effects anti-depressants will come with, to combat the effects of some stupid hairloss drug.

I'll be seeing her again in 4 weeks to see if the treatment is working. She did mention a scalp biopsy then which I'm sure I'll have to do.

My hair is just awful now, can completely see my scalp above my right temple where the burning is worst, and both my temples are itchy and burning, and have receded massively since starting Propecia. I keep thinking of getting a hair transplant to fill in my temples, but there's not really much point when my MPB is this aggressive, the area behind my temples will just disappear within the next year or two as well.

Dench57
06-24-2015, 07:32 AM
Also in the last few weeks I noticed the burning itch is really noticeable on my left temple now, as well as my right. It was actually manageable mentally when it was just the right side, I could kid myself that it was some sort of inflammation and not MPB, because it wasn't balanced. Now the itch is basically equal on both temples. So this thing is definitely getting worse, not better, after 6 months off Fin. Which really makes me give up hope I will ever be free from this. I can't even pretend that it's going to resolve itself when its actually getting worse.

This is literally the definition of torture. Natural MPB is bad enough but I can't imagine many worse things for someone to experience than self-inflicted, permanently accelerated MPB. The constant physical irritation and pain, and the mental side of knowing that it's hair being burnt away.

I would happily trade my NW2 with 24 hour burning itch for a NW3 with no MPB itch.

Dench57
06-24-2015, 07:38 AM
I have been looking at PGD2/CTRH2 stuff like TM, OC, Indo/Chromo and Ramatroban. There's literally no evidence that any of this stuff works across any of the forums though, a few threads of people saying it helped with shedding, and people getting excited about the theory, but so few real world results. Just gonna be another topical Spiro/Fluridil isn't it.

jamesst11
06-24-2015, 11:22 AM
Hey Dench, I am sorry to hear you're going through all this bull sh*t. I started fin about 3.5. months ago. I am getting this burning/itching, only in ONE specific spot in my left temple. Exactly where my damned hair transplants were placed. I am loosing what I think is a "normal" amount of hair still throughout my head, but starting to get concerned.
Anyway, can you provide for us some sort of timeline with your fin usage??? for example:

month 1 - slightly decreased libido, minor scalp itch
month 2 - shedding, scalp itch...

so and and so forth, so maybe we can help figure things out? It seems like you have a similar situation to Ziggy and I want to also beware of physical signs that may indicate something is off. also, let us know what your T panel says. Thanks!! :)

Joranso
06-24-2015, 01:51 PM
I have been looking at PGD2/CTRH2 stuff like TM, OC, Indo/Chromo and Ramatroban. There's literally no evidence that any of this stuff works across any of the forums though, a few threads of people saying it helped with shedding, and people getting excited about the theory, but so few real world results. Just gonna be another topical Spiro/Fluridil isn't it.

it can be aggravating looking for a new solution

Ziggyz123
06-24-2015, 01:55 PM
Yo guys! Dench man, I heard that those inhibit substance P so that's a good place to start. I read a lot of good about it blocking out the pain so I hope to god that helps you. I was wondering, do the hairs you shed look weird at all? I shed really odd hairs some times with almost like a build up covering the root.. Check these out that I saved.. Do you get this??

Ziggyz123
06-24-2015, 02:00 PM
I just showered so my hands look freaking pruny my bad haha

Dench57
06-24-2015, 02:42 PM
Hey Dench, I am sorry to hear you're going through all this bull sh*t. I started fin about 3.5. months ago. I am getting this burning/itching, only in ONE specific spot in my left temple. Exactly where my damned hair transplants were placed. I am loosing what I think is a "normal" amount of hair still throughout my head, but starting to get concerned.
Anyway, can you provide for us some sort of timeline with your fin usage??? for example:

month 1 - slightly decreased libido, minor scalp itch
month 2 - shedding, scalp itch...

so and and so forth, so maybe we can help figure things out? It seems like you have a similar situation to Ziggy and I want to also beware of physical signs that may indicate something is off. also, let us know what your T panel says. Thanks!! :)


Hi James,

When my itch first started, it was just above my right temple. It is still worse in that place, but now it has progressed to other areas along my hairline. I never have any itching or burning in sides, back or crown of my head (places where I'm pretty much immune to DHT I think - whole family has only frontal receding). So it's definitely MPB related, as much as I would love to be it was dermatitis, folliculitis, thyroid issue or any other hundred things it could be.

I think myself and Ziggy may be experiencing slightly different things, my itch started within 3 weeks of starting Fin along with the usual symptons of reflex-hyper (increased libido, increased sebum on hair and face, scalp, accelerated MPB). From what little we know of reflex-hyper, if it's gonna happen, it should happen within a month or so of taking the drug. But we don't know anything about it really, it's speculation but respected people like Dr. Lee/Proctor/Bryan Shelton believed it to be possible from Fin. I think Ziggy's thing started after like 9 months or something? And I think he was fine on Fin before that. I'm sure he can confirm. I've also never experienced increased shedding to speak of, always had about 5-10 hairs on my hands in the shower before, during and after Fin (touch wood, I really don't need shedding to add to this shit).

Thats interesting that you're experiencing the burning/itch where your transplanted hairs are, those are supposed to be immune to DHT right? I guess you'll know soon if they're in trouble, all my hairs miniaturized and became brittle and thin before falling out. Not sure if you mentioned before but I would advise going to see a dermatologist with your concerns, I put off seeing mine for a few months thinking it would resolve itself which was stupid.

My brief timeline
Month 1: Started on .5mg Propecia, noticed a burning itch above my right temple within 3 weeks
Month 2: Burning intensified, started noticing increased sebum production (hair would be oily within 24 hours of showering when usually it was 2-3 days) and increased sex drive (rock solid boners like I never had before)
Month 3: Dropped down to 0.25mg to taper off, stayed like this for 4 weeks before dropping Fin completely in February 2015

So now 6 months later, the itching burn is still worst above my right temple but is now all across my frontal hairline. If anything I would say it has gotten worse. Tried a variety of things that haven't helped at all, the only item I've used which helps even for 20 mins is probably Regenepure DR (Keto shampoo, natural ingredients, smells minty and seems to decrease sebum? maybe)

I've had a basic blood test done, everything came back normal, testosterone was fairly high, 29 nmol/l (normal range is 5-30 nmol/l) but certainly not high enough to explain any of this.

Dench57
06-24-2015, 02:55 PM
Yo guys! Dench man, I heard that those inhibit substance P so that's a good place to start. I read a lot of good about it blocking out the pain so I hope to god that helps you. I was wondering, do the hairs you shed look weird at all? I shed really odd hairs some times with almost like a build up covering the root.. Check these out that I saved.. Do you get this??

Yo Zig,

Yeah I've heard of the substance P theory before (I bought that capsaicin shampoo and it did **** all, so I kind of ruled out "burning scalp syndrome" which is what I think my derm thinks I have). I'm sure these anti-depressants will help to mask the extreme burning/pain, but they won't stop the tingling itch along my hairline, which is just as bad (I know that sounds stupid, but it's just because I know that tingly itch is MPB itch and I'm losing hair). Like I said before, I want to find the ****ing root cause of whatever is happening here and stop it, not just mask it and let it continue to rape my hair. This is the 21st century and somebody or something must have some answers for this torture.

I've certainly never shed hairs with that stuff on the end, mine just have the tiny white bulb as usual. I'm not an expert but I thought that is either excess sebum or possibly an indicator of some other inflammation or fungus perhaps? But your dermatologists didn't tell you anything about that did they? Are you using keto shampoo? Sorry I'm sure you've told me before, my memory sucks

Anyway I'm seeing my endocrinologist on Friday. I've really got to do some more research into this MPB itch bullshit because it's not just as simple as DHT attacking hair follicles. There's so much other stuff way over my head that's going on (cytokines, prostoglandins, various "free radicals" and neuropeptides and blah blah) contributing to this micro-inflammation/auto-immune response that manifests itself as the MPB itch. If I can figure out exactly what it is, then maybe a medical professional can point me in the right direction of treatment. I wish Bryan Shelton was still around to explain this crap to me, surely one of the biochem/expert people on this forum must be able to explain it.

jamesst11
06-24-2015, 02:59 PM
Thanks Dench! Yo Ziggy, those are telogen hairs brother.. you more than likely have TE if most of the hairs you're losing have those bulbs. That's what 3 derms told me when I had it. That's also what a million articles say.

jamesst11
06-24-2015, 03:01 PM
That being said... TE is self correcting, as I am sure you know. You remove the cause, and it resolves itself within 3-6 months and, especially in your case, most of the hair should return. A HAIR TRANSPLANT IS NOT A GOOD RESOLUTION FOR TE!!!!!!!!! haha... I will never get off your back about this bro. ;)

Not giving up
06-24-2015, 03:09 PM
Dench, something to look into is max strength Scalpacin, the forums back in the mid 2000's were raving about it but it faded because it's long term use is questionable is terms of sides from the ingredient that worked the magic.

Anyway, lots of people claimed it stopped the itch in it's tracks and that it even did a good job at regrowing hair.

Some argue that using it once a week instead of everyday was enough to stop burn and itch and avoid sides. Might be worth a shot bro.

Dench57
06-24-2015, 03:16 PM
Dench, something to look into is max strength Scalpacin, the forums back in the mid 2000's were raving about it but it faded because it's long term use is questionable is terms of sides from the ingredient that worked the magic.

Anyway, lots of people claimed it stopped the itch in it's tracks and that it even did a good job at regrowing hair.

Some argue that using it once a week instead of everyday was enough to stop burn and itch and avoid sides. Might be worth a shot bro.

Thanks for the input man. Unfortunately I have tried Scalpicin max and it didn't help - I guess it's mainly meant for people with traditional inflammation like eczema, dermatitis, uticaris, psoriasis etc. Not this god damn mysterious, internal androgenic itch!

Not giving up
06-24-2015, 03:26 PM
Ah sorry bud didn't realise. I've got the same itch and burn thing myself only mine can hit pretty much all over the scalp, mainly the crown.
Regenepure does help and I think Spiro cream has helped a bit too but not to the point where it's gone or hair loss has stopped.
Really frustrating there isn't more out there about this, really is just a constant reminder throughout the day that DHT is destroying your hair

Ziggyz123
06-24-2015, 03:32 PM
Thanks Dench! Yo Ziggy, those are telogen hairs brother.. you more than likely have TE if most of the hairs you're losing have those bulbs. That's what 3 derms told me when I had it. That's also what a million articles say.

Yo James, telegenic hairs just have a white bulb on them. Mine have like a build of of either sebum or some fungus like Dench suggested. If I scrape that junk off it shows the white root bulb under neath it. And done worry dude, not transplanting until I figure out how to get rid of this bull sh**!:cool:

Dench57
06-24-2015, 03:39 PM
Really frustrating there isn't more out there about this, really is just a constant reminder throughout the day that DHT is destroying your hair

This is the worst part, and I never had any MPB itch, scalp pain or aggressive hairloss whatsoever before I tried Propecia, so the regret is something I'm constantly dealing with too, knowing that I've brought this hell upon myself. Dealing with MPB this aggressive, with the constant physical and mental pain, really is life destroying and it makes me feel like it is an actual disease, where your body attacks perfectly healthy hair follicles.... not just some cosmetic vanity thing. Its so frustrating it isn't treated more seriously.

It's good that Spiro cream at least helps a bit for you, shows that it's working somewhat. Regenepure does help to calm my itch, at least for a few hours.

Not giving up
06-24-2015, 03:49 PM
Ah man you're talking to a guy who knows about self inflicting hair loss. I never had any loss until I made the stupid decision to touch anabolic steroids a few months back. Within 4 weeks, as if over night, my hair flicked a switched, I can genuinely remember the day I woke up and literally overnight the hairs in my hairline were weak, thin and brittle, a huge shed has continued ever since. You'd think seeing as I stopped right away, thus lowering my DHT back to normal levels my hair could once handle before, that my hairloss would stop, but it hasn't, just carried on.
So yeah, I feel you man, knowing a choice you made has backfired makes it sucks even more, now I have the burn to forever remind me of my moronic mistake.
But hey, can't beat ourselves up right? You were trying to help your hair, I was trying to build a better physique, both of which are insecurities in the first place, yeah it's backfired but I promise you when you look back on life you would have regretted never knowing if fin could have saved your hair and not trying over having the balls to give it a shot and knowing you did all you could.

Plus the fight isn't over yet, we'll find the solution eventually.

Dench57
06-24-2015, 04:05 PM
I'm sorry to hear that man, and though I wouldn't ever wish this shit on my worst enemy, its also strangely comforting to know somebody else has experienced self-inflicted balding. How long has it been since you stopped steroids? Are you sure it isn't telogen effluvium?

If this had happened naturally, like MPB is supposed to, I'd be able to handle it much better. Honestly I can't imagine many things worse... and being constantly reminded of it everyday makes it impossible to move on.


you would have regretted never knowing if fin could have saved your hair and not trying over having the balls to give it a shot and knowing you did all you could

Its really hard not to beat myself up, but even now I think "I was always going to try Fin", it was and still is the best treatment we have for MPB and I never could have known it was going to do this. I read the horror stories about "Propecia ****ed my hairline up", which in hindsight should've stopped me, but with the lack of clinical data for that, and the overwhelming data and support on these forums for Fin...I was never NOT going to try it. I do vividly remember the moment before I first took my pill, thinking "....maybe I shouldn't do this...nah I'm sure it'll be fine" haha. Stupid me. I am still thankful I never got serious, persistent sexual sides after quitting like the guys on propeciahelp though, so I guess thats something I can be grateful I've escaped.


Plus the fight isn't over yet, we'll find the solution eventually.

For me, the only solution I see is a hair transplant. Unless I can miraculously discover something to halt my hairloss now, and I've tried most things. I believe a safe treatment for maintaining is on the horizon, but regrowing slick bald areas won't be here for many, many years.

jamesst11
06-24-2015, 06:22 PM
Ziggy, I am glad to hear man!! everything will sort itself out eventually... Have any of you tried derma rolling on the effected areas? I just got one, mostly out of curiosity and tried it, just a couple times. Somehow, it does make my scalp feel awesome, AND it takes away this pesky itch that has been occuring in my left temple... thoughts?

Ziggyz123
06-24-2015, 10:27 PM
Ziggy, I am glad to hear man!! everything will sort itself out eventually... Have any of you tried derma rolling on the effected areas? I just got one, mostly out of curiosity and tried it, just a couple times. Somehow, it does make my scalp feel awesome, AND it takes away this pesky itch that has been occuring in my left temple... thoughts?

Hey James, I actually have a dermroller. I used to mess around with it when I used minoxidil, but never really kept it going. I think I was going to hard on my scalp. That makes sense though that it's taking your itch away because your probably stimulating better blood flow in that area. I think that's why minoxidil worked so well with me and why I had that itch in the first place. Probably had to do with dht hurting the blood supply. I'm seeing another derm that specializes in hairloss to figure out what's exactly happening and I might try and go on oral minox at 5mg. Not entirely sure yet, but I need to avoid irritation on my head. Did you get your roller off of amazon? Mine was like $7 off there lol might have be to thick of needles and why it was hurting me so much.

Not giving up
06-24-2015, 10:29 PM
Yeah don't worry bud you're not alone.
It's been about 4 months since I stopped. At first I prayed for It to be TE and for a while I had a pretty decent case for it to be so, all the hairs I shed were thick and healthy with White bulbs on the end. But as time has gone on new hair has started to grow through and they look minaturized and the ones still being shed are frail, sometimes white towards the end with a tapering thickness from top to bottom. Sucks.
Even if the initial shed was TE, all it's done seemingly is speed up MPB.

That's very true bro you would have done it regardless. We all want to believe in a drug that is claimed to be so safe by so many. I for one have just about resisted the urge so far because I'm in a relationship and I think any form sexual sides would put a lot of strain on it, if I was single I probably would have already tried propecia.

On the almost-brightside you can be glad a hair transplant sounds like a viable option for you. If you only recede from the front with no crown loss then sounds like a HT would fix your problem forever.
I'm seemingly diffuse thinning, and potentially losing all over the top. On days I use regenepure, which leaves my hair a little flat and lifeless, hiding scalp can be troublesom. I'd say I'm still a Norwood 1 with a bit of crown loss (hidden the way I style my hair) but the density behind my hairline is destroyed, in bright lights or sunlight if I have my fringe up you can see the damage.
But yeah, sounds like you're the perfect candidate for a HT at least.

Ziggyz123
06-24-2015, 11:58 PM
Hey not giving up, it usually takes about 6 months for acute TE to subside and miniaturized hair is often a good sign that you're recovering. Some people don't even see regrowth until after 6 months so keep monitoring it and try and either use minox or take a good b complex becUse upon reading about TE, one dermatologist stated that they treated TE with b6 shots.

Not giving up
06-25-2015, 05:52 AM
Hey ziggy. Okay that's interesting wasn't aware of that. Does TE present itself with burning too? My hair loss Is mostly in terms of density as far as I can tell and I can achieve a fair few hairs if I gently pull on the sides or back, but the majority of loss is from on top.
Like I said I had pretty much ruled out TE due to the duration and the fact I started shedding minaturized hair along with healthy hair where as before it was mostly all healthy hair being shed.
I can only see within the hairline obviously but I've got a lot of small hairs growing through but I thought them being minaturized would indicate MPB?
All this hairloss m'lark is so confusing.

I didn't even have the itch and burn until after I used alpecin shampoo and lotion. It really burned when I used the energiser lotion, only used it for a few days when I first noticed the loss but ive had typical MPB burn and itch since (about 4 months ago.)

Oh, and before I end the essay (sorry about that btw) I've also noticed my eyebrows are pretty easy to pull out and fall out of their own accord.They itch too sometimes.

Minox might be the answer if it continues but it's for life obviously, so I'm holding before making that commitment until I know for sure this won't correct itself.

mic28
06-26-2015, 02:52 PM
Hey guys,

Just a bit of an update on my situation. I have maintained finasteride at 1.25mg every second day for 2 weeks after using it every day for a year and getting nothing but shedding and diffuse loss. I am now starting to get a few pimples on my face and neck in keeping with acne. Wondering where to go next. Want to stop finasteride completely and maybe start up again later but afraid I might get a large amount of loss. Can't really lose much more as I'm pretty diffuse at the moment.
Should be starting my 1mg oral minoxidil in the next few days so that might give me hope for re growth. It's a low dose but dermatologist reckons due to potential heart problems she doesn't want to go any higher yet.

jamesst11
06-26-2015, 06:11 PM
Mic28,
You used it for a year and you lost a ton of hair... may I ask, why are you starting again? It obviously doesn't work for you.

Ziggyz123
06-26-2015, 08:22 PM
Hey guys,

Just a bit of an update on my situation. I have maintained finasteride at 1.25mg every second day for 2 weeks after using it every day for a year and getting nothing but shedding and diffuse loss. I am now starting to get a few pimples on my face and neck in keeping with acne. Wondering where to go next. Want to stop finasteride completely and maybe start up again later but afraid I might get a large amount of loss. Can't really lose much more as I'm pretty diffuse at the moment.
Should be starting my 1mg oral minoxidil in the next few days so that might give me hope for re growth. It's a low dose but dermatologist reckons due to potential heart problems she doesn't want to go any higher yet.

Hey mic, you may be one of the responders that needs a very low dose of the drug. Also, 1mg loniten is not going to do much of anything in terms of regrowth from what I understand. 5mg is what seems to be safest and effective. Is your derm just trying to see how your body will react to oral minoxidil?

mic28
06-26-2015, 08:39 PM
Hey James,

To be honest things were going ok enough up until a couple of months ago and I lost a lot of hair with an itchy scalp etc. it's not that I have been losing the whole time. Things look very diffuse when the sunlight or bright light hits my head...I may aswell be bald to be honest it's that bad. I'm just afraid that it's a massive shed and will come back, although my hair is very thin now.

Hey Ziggy,

The dermatologist just wants to see how I fair out with the 1mg at first. If I'm all good then il ask to go higher.

I'm really unsure of where to go from here. I could quit and I may see a big recovery due to propecia not being effective or I could go even thinner and more diffuse. This is very depressing!

Ziggyz123
06-27-2015, 08:26 AM
Yeah it is extremely depressing mic! I'm in the same situation where I took the pill with VERY minimal loss. Now, my hair is getting extremely thin on and behind my hairline and my shedding has been going on for 9 months now.. I feel so trapped now! I wish prp worked because I'd just start maintaining with that, but it's not worth wasting the money on. And then there is dutasteride which could f*** us even more or save us... Again, might not be worth the risk. Oral minox was shown to grow hair a lot better than topical so if you do well on 1mg (fingers crossed) get on 5 and you should thicken up considerably. Do you know how much that stuff is by any chance?

jamesst11
06-27-2015, 12:13 PM
Ziggy, you think the sides or oral minoxidil are worth it and dutasteride is not? I don't know man, those are some nasty, nasty sides. I would be really afraid to mess around with my cardiovascular health.

jamesst11
06-27-2015, 12:15 PM
I hope to God fin doesn't start having the same effects on me man... God, this hair loss thing sucks. In short, we are all just f*cked. Might as well just give up and go live in a cave.

Ziggyz123
06-27-2015, 12:24 PM
Ziggy, you think the sides or oral minoxidil are worth it and dutasteride is not? I don't know man, those are some nasty, nasty sides. I would be really afraid to mess around with my cardiovascular health.

The sides of oral minox at 5mg are not seen as risky. I'm pretty sure you don't even need a diuretic at that does according to dr. pathomvanich. He prescribes his patients who aren't candidates for a transplant this and has seen good regrowth. The reason for dutasteride not being good is simply because some people seem to experience what we do because of a sensitivity to hormonal differences in the body. Who knows what pathways our hormones try and take while on these meds.

mic28
06-28-2015, 04:41 PM
Hey Ziggy it cost $75 for 100x 0.5mg capsules. Reason it is so expensive is because I had to get it made in a compound pharmacy here in Australia. I know now you can get it on inhousepharmacy so il get it there from now on and cut it up.
Did you stop taking finasteride? If so, how long ago?

Ziggyz123
06-28-2015, 05:03 PM
Hey mic, na I still take it. I'm not sure if what I had going on was due to an infection or finasteride still. It's just weird that my hairline feels bruised underneath the skin on the one side. This random hairloss and pain only affected one side of my head... I don't know if I had shingles or something crazy lol. I don't know what I'm going to do right yet, but it does seem that finasteride has/had no effect on me.

mic28
06-28-2015, 06:51 PM
I'm still in 2 minds on whether to quit or not. I'm down to 1.25mg every 2.5 days but don't notice much difference. Might try stay off it for a week see if I notice any good/bad sides then make more of a call

Dench57
06-30-2015, 07:42 AM
Went to see the endocrinologist, she sent me back to my GP to get a further blood test done with more obscure stuff (DHT, SHBG, DHEAS, TGF-1 etc). My GP said these may not even show up on the NHS blood test because they're so obscure, and the endo said it would cost 700 to have this done privately, which I don't have. I have also been referred to a private dermatologist in Harley Street who specialises in androgenetic alopecia. Harley Street is world renowned for specialists in private healthcare, so if they can't help me, nobody can.

Can't even put into words how bad things have gotten recently. The Amitryptyline has helped to mask the most severe burning pain sensation, even though I still feel it somewhat, but the whole front of my scalp is still so tingly and itchy to the point where I'm having trouble sleeping, and have been having to take time off work. All the hair behind my temple on the right side, where the burning has been constant for 8 months now, has completely miniaturized and is now see-through patch that looks really weird. This was completely 100% thick before I took Propecia. The fact that this has spread to the left side of my head (used to just be the right) means that rather than getting better, this thing is progressively getting worse. Giving up hope that it will ever resolve itself. The 1-year travelling trip I have been planning with my best friend for years is close to getting called off because of how bad my condition is getting and how much of my savings I've spent trying to treat this.



On the almost-brightside you can be glad a hair transplant sounds like a viable option for you. If you only recede from the front with no crown loss then sounds like a HT would fix your problem forever.
I'm seemingly diffuse thinning, and potentially losing all over the top. On days I use regenepure, which leaves my hair a little flat and lifeless, hiding scalp can be troublesom. I'd say I'm still a Norwood 1 with a bit of crown loss (hidden the way I style my hair) but the density behind my hairline is destroyed, in bright lights or sunlight if I have my fringe up you can see the damage.
But yeah, sounds like you're the perfect candidate for a HT at least.

I would have been a perfect candidate for a HT (purely receding temple but complete thickness otherwise) but this burning patch has miniaturized a whole massive chunk of my scalp and is now spreading to the left side, so I'll have no hair at all in those areas in a few years. So this now means a shietload more grafts and a shietload more money, and I'll never be able to achieve the same density.

Just recently tried dermaroller, emu oil, T-gel sensitive to no effect whatsoever. Anyway, I hope you guys are doing better than me because it can't get much worse than this.

Dench57
07-07-2015, 08:00 AM
My Ramatroban arrived from Iron Dragon today.
Also just bought the stuff to make topical cetirizine.
And have enquired about the group buy for Seti.

Let's hope to god this PGD2-based stuff helps.

Ziggyz123
07-07-2015, 08:28 AM
Hey dench, where did you hear about that seti group buy? And is it topical?

jamesst11
07-07-2015, 09:55 AM
Man, I feel horrible for you guys, this sucks. The uncertainty and lack of control is killing me as well. I went through EXACTLY what you're going through about a year ago. Itching burning, pin point stabbing and pressure sensations, shedding... it was miserable. For me it was just TE and I hope you guys are able to come to some kind of conclusion soon. I eventually realized that the more I f*cked around with things, the worst it got. The only "solution" that actually worked, and it took about a month, was to stop trying all this different stuff. I would just shampoo with 1% keto with HOT water, scrub it in with my fingernails, let it sit for like 5 minutes and rinse it. Afterwards I used that purador conditioner, let that sit for like 5-10 minutes and then got out of the shower and rinsed it with FREEZING cold water and left my hear under it for like 2 minutes. I just read this somewhere and it stopped the itching dead in it's tracks. I don't know how. Maybe it was just the hot and then cold, maybe the keto, who knows.
Anyway, that's what I do now. It makes my hair look thicker too. I then just style it to cover my thinning spots, fluff it up, put in hairspray and try to forget about it for the day. All these treatments you are looking to try seem to have minimal research behind them, are expensive, hard to properly formulate and putting more crap on your head right now, personally, I think is not a good idea. The body has a way to correct itself. The one thing I realized EVENTUALLY (after like a year and a half) is that with hair, it just takes a long friggin time.

Not giving up
07-07-2015, 11:29 AM
My Ramatroban arrived from Iron Dragon today.
Also just bought the stuff to make topical cetirizine.
And have enquired about the group buy for Seti.

Let's hope to god this PGD2-based stuff helps.

Keep us posted how it goes please Dench, The PGD2 route will probably be my next option if this doesn't resolve itself soon.

Not giving up
07-07-2015, 11:30 AM
Man, I feel horrible for you guys, this sucks. The uncertainty and lack of control is killing me as well. I went through EXACTLY what you're going through about a year ago. Itching burning, pin point stabbing and pressure sensations, shedding... it was miserable. For me it was just TE and I hope you guys are able to come to some kind of conclusion soon. I eventually realized that the more I f*cked around with things, the worst it got. The only "solution" that actually worked, and it took about a month, was to stop trying all this different stuff. I would just shampoo with 1% keto with HOT water, scrub it in with my fingernails, let it sit for like 5 minutes and rinse it. Afterwards I used that purador conditioner, let that sit for like 5-10 minutes and then got out of the shower and rinsed it with FREEZING cold water and left my hear under it for like 2 minutes. I just read this somewhere and it stopped the itching dead in it's tracks. I don't know how. Maybe it was just the hot and then cold, maybe the keto, who knows.
Anyway, that's what I do now. It makes my hair look thicker too. I then just style it to cover my thinning spots, fluff it up, put in hairspray and try to forget about it for the day. All these treatments you are looking to try seem to have minimal research behind them, are expensive, hard to properly formulate and putting more crap on your head right now, personally, I think is not a good idea. The body has a way to correct itself. The one thing I realized EVENTUALLY (after like a year and a half) is that with hair, it just takes a long friggin time.

Hey bud, you suffered from TE? I think that's what I might be going through right now, did you get any regrowth after the shedding stopped?

burtandernie
07-07-2015, 03:03 PM
These kinds of threads end up many pages with no real solutions. Its just people kind of guessing and saying what they tried. There is no solution to the itch and I dont think there is even an established connection between MPB and the itch. Its common but doesnt mean they are directly related. We could find out 10 years from now though that they are. Who knows but I do have the itch as well. Nothing helps just shampoo might help 1 day and it just comes back

jamesst11
07-07-2015, 04:18 PM
Yeah, I was one of those idiots that decided on an HT with just about a full head of hair. greedy and vain and I go f*cked for it!! exactly four months after I was shedding like 200-300 hairs a day, for like 3 months straight. right when it started to resolve, I tore my ACL playing ball. Then had ACL surgery and got it again. It's been a year and a half of TE, resolved like 5 months ago. then I started fin, 4 months ago, in hopes that since all this MASSIVE hair loss was RECENT, I would have a chance of bringing it back. Still shedding I think. I, do however, see a LARGE amount of thinner hairs, any where from 1/2" to 2" growing every where. Hope they become something cosmetically significant.
burtandernie, couldn't agree with you more. Some people have NO hair loss, yet itch all the time. A LOT of people that are going through MPB NEVER itch. I asked all my friends who are going through it. NO ITCH. So, if there is a "direct correlation" between MPB and itching, how come so many people with MPB don't itch?

Dench57
07-08-2015, 01:47 AM
Hey dench, where did you hear about that seti group buy? And is it topical?

http://www.*****************/interact/showthread.php/93281-PM-ME-IF-YOU-WANT-TO-LIVE-SETIPIPRANT-GROUP-BUY

Although thinking about it, that guy just joined this forum last month. The other one was run by Hellouser who's well known at least. I'm pretty skeptical about the whole thing.

Can be used oral or topical. The company is marketing it as oral I believe which is a real selling point for me. Hate topicals.

Dench57
07-08-2015, 01:53 AM
There is no solution to the itch and I dont think there is even an established connection between MPB and the itch.

I have to keep trying everything I can - there must be something out there. My itch is beyond most peoples I think, it's a CONSTANT burning, itching, tingling, often painful sensation. It hurts when wind blows on my hair ffs.

It's definitely a part of the MPB process (DHT attaching to receptor, causing mysterious micro-inflammation). See this thread:

http://www.hairloss-research.org/february1.html

Dench57
07-08-2015, 02:08 AM
Yeah, I was one of those idiots that decided on an HT with just about a full head of hair. greedy and vain and I go f*cked for it!! exactly four months after I was shedding like 200-300 hairs a day, for like 3 months straight. right when it started to resolve, I tore my ACL playing ball. Then had ACL surgery and got it again. It's been a year and a half of TE, resolved like 5 months ago. then I started fin, 4 months ago, in hopes that since all this MASSIVE hair loss was RECENT, I would have a chance of bringing it back. Still shedding I think. I, do however, see a LARGE amount of thinner hairs, any where from 1/2" to 2" growing every where. Hope they become something cosmetically significant.
burtandernie, couldn't agree with you more. Some people have NO hair loss, yet itch all the time. A LOT of people that are going through MPB NEVER itch. I asked all my friends who are going through it. NO ITCH. So, if there is a "direct correlation" between MPB and itching, how come so many people with MPB don't itch?

I had very non-aggressive MPB before I took Fin and never itched, ever. Since taking Fin I have super-aggressive MPB and itch all the time in MPB areas, where I'm thinning most. There's plenty of stuff online by people much smarter than me that implicates a link between MPB and inflammation. It is just theory and unproven but I've no reason to doubt it.

The PGD2 inhibitors I'm really hopeful about, it's really my last hope I think. PGD2 has been shown to inhibit hair growth and also plays a role in inflammatory responses.

Not giving up
07-08-2015, 05:27 AM
http://www.*****************/interact/showthread.php/93281-PM-ME-IF-YOU-WANT-TO-LIVE-SETIPIPRANT-GROUP-BUY

Although thinking about it, that guy just joined this forum last month. The other one was run by Hellouser who's well known at least. I'm pretty skeptical about the whole thing.

Can be used oral or topical. The company is marketing it as oral I believe which is a real selling point for me. Hate topicals.

Yeah I just checked it out, doesn't seem to be overly trustworthy. However I'd love nothing more than oral like that. It's a shame that type of stuff doesn't pop here more often.

Dench57
07-13-2015, 10:15 AM
So guys, just when I thought things couldn't get any worse for me...

Seems I have the beginnings of gyno, visually seems to be a tiny bit more fat around my nipples, and I can sort of "feel" my breasts, though it's not quite sore or painful.

I'm hoping I'm just being paranoid. I don't know if it's the Fluridil or the topical Spiro (probably spiro) but I'm discontinuing both anyway and hope it resolves itself.

Dench57
07-16-2015, 08:19 AM
Yo Ziggy,

I'm at the same stage as you mentioned in the other thread: willing to risk sides and just wanting my life back. I refuse to let this shit ruin my 20s, it's gone on long enough. I'm going to see a dermatologist at Harley Street in London (best specialist medical care in the world) who specialises in androgenic alopecia. I really hope she can give me some answers and treatment for this ridiculous scalp pain/itch. I will report back after I have.

As for treating myself, I think I've ruled out anti-androgens, my body just does not like them. As shown by my Fin reflex-hyper, non-response to topical spiro/fluridil, and possible gyno (which I think may have been the Amitrytyline). I just have an incredibly sensitive hormone system that can't be messed with internally.

Did you ever give more thought to the idea of low-dosing oral minoxidil? I remember you talking about it a while back. I was reading a thread about a guy, and several others who had great results with it. He mentioned "As strange as it may seem, oral minoxidil is particularly effective at regrowing/thickening temporal areas (and probably the hairline in general)". Now my better judgement is telling me oral minoxidil is not something to be ****ed with and has dangerous side effects, but since its not anti-androgenic in nature, and its a simple oral, and you read these encouraging reviews, especially for temple regrowth....man it's tempting. My temple hair has been miniaturised to **** with this itch, but surely must be salvageable. I suppose there's no point though until I get this inflammation under control, thats raping my follicles faster than any treatment can thicken existing/grow new hair.

Thread: http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=68579&STARTPAGE=2&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

There's also a guy in that mentioned he got upregulated ARs from taking Fin/Dut, and the subsequent inflammation/itch that me and you have. Seems very similar to your story - took Fin with no problems for 7 months and then BAM, inflammation/itch. See:

"I took finasteride for 7 months and it completely stopped my loss, unfortunately after that, the shedding and inflammation kicked in and has not stopped since October 2012. As in your situation the loss is totally diffuse so I still have decent coverage but it has thinned dramatically. I believe that for people like us our bodies uptick the inflammatory response to mpb in response to lowered androgen levels. I recently tried topical spiro and it also caused increased inlfammation just like the finasteride and dutasteride. TE and and upregulated androgen receptors may also play a part as well. I have read on the boards some people in the same boat have success from stopping AA's, but unfortunaltey for me that has not been the case. The only thing that has reduced the maddening inflammation for me has been minocycline, a systemic antibiotic"

The other poster mentions:
"Tetracyclines are very effective at reducing inflammations in the body, and your hair loss is probably caused by that."

Encouraging to know a guy who got inflammation from Fin managed to treat it. I haven't heard of these "tetracyclines" before but I'm gonna look into them now. Not giving up.

EDIT: Should also mention I'm seeing my standard dermatologist on Monday, I think I'm gonna request a scalp biopsy. Even though from the pictures I'll have to shave a patch off my frontal hairline and be left with a scar :/ it needs to be done though I think

Ziggyz123
07-17-2015, 05:28 AM
Hey Dench, I never did the low does of oral minox. I would assume 5mg would be the prime dosage for it though from my readings. Idk, my hair got so bad that the only way to fix it is a transplant.. I actually did not take fin yesterday and my shedding wasn't that bad surprisingly. I have to take it today and tomorrow because I'm getting blood work Saturday. If I were to be off of it, that would defeat the purpose lol.

Also, I have the same thoughts about the biopsy :(. One derm I saw said he wanted to do it, but my hairline is bad enough without a biopsy scar, however, something has to be done. Especially in your case.. It's truly amazing how we are in the spot on Hairloss meds. Everyday I look at my self and ask myself how the hell did this happen.. :(

Dench57
07-17-2015, 08:17 AM
Well I know others opinion doesn't mean as much as how you feel yourself but really, from the pics I saw your hair looks fine. Keep trying other treatments before you go down the transplant route. What about RU+Neogenic like loads of guys on here use? Assume it doesn't have the harsh vehicle that Minox has you can't tolerate.


It's truly amazing how we are in the spot on Hairloss meds. Everyday I look at my self and ask myself how the hell did this happen.

Everyday I think how different my life could've turned out if I hadn't taken that pill. Like you I had amazing hair a year ago, non-aggressive MPB that I could've left for years, enjoying my 20s...should have been the best years of my life. I think my balding is permanently accelerated but there must be a way to get this inflammation under control. At the stage now where I'm thinking about Sulfasalazine....can't believe I got myself into this mess. Just taking more and more dangerous drugs to try and reverse the damage another drug has done. I wish it would resolve itself naturally but it never will.

Ziggyz123
07-17-2015, 09:30 AM
Yeah, my hair looks "decent " in pictures but that's blow dried and what not. I was thinking of trying RU a while back, but I'm not into mixing all that together. I've heard of neogenic, but not to sure on what it is exactly.. Can you fill me in?
But yeah the propylene glycol doesn't agree with my scalp unfortunately. Honestly, if you think my hair looks good now, you should have seen it before. I'll post a picture later on from last summer..

I did read irishpride's story about finasteride hurting instead of helping and him going on RU. But I wouldn't be able to apply ru all over because my hair is pretty long. I'm scheduled for blood work tomorrow so I'll know better about what's going on when I get my results. But like you, it's probably just unregulated receptors. We'll see though.

I think replicel or setipiprant is our way out, but I hear nothing about seti and replicel will only be in Japan. Who knows if it will even work too.

Let me know how your visit to the derms go man. Thanks for the updates. If I figure anything out or get anywhere, I'll be back with an update.

Dench57
07-20-2015, 05:27 AM
Hey Ziggy,

There is another group buy going for Seti atm, closing on 28/07. See this thread:

http://www.*****************/interact/showthread.php/93281-PM-ME-IF-YOU-WANT-TO-LIVE-SETIPIPRANT-GROUP-BUY

You should PM Highlander Reborn, he will forward you the details of joining it on the PHG.com website. $340 for like a 3-6 month supply I think, I'd definitely be doing it if I wasn't going travelling (hopefully still) in November, cos I think it takes about 3 months to arrive and I would miss the shipment. I'm still considering it though before the closing date.

I went to see my standard Derm today. She's not a hair specialist but she did a hair pull, and took some of my hair to examine under a microscope later. She said it was damaged, mentioned something about keratin, because it's really brittle/thin and weak when it wasn't just a few months ago. She's referred me to David Fenton in Harley Street:
http://www.drdavidfenton.com/

She said he's one of the best in the world for hair/scalp problems, with a specialist interest in hairloss, so I'm hopeful he can give me some answers. For 350 for 20 minute consultation I'd ****ing hope so :D. I have my consultation with him next Monday and will report back. Still waiting on my DHT levels from the blood test, I think they'll be high, I really hope not because there's nothing I can do about DHT.

I'm not too sure about Neogenic, I think its Stemoxydine, a fairly new growth stimulant similar to Minoxidil but less harsh I think. You'd have to Google the details but I see a lot of people use that as their RU vehicle.

Iirc Irishpride has been diagnosed with chronic TE, so he has other stuff going on besides MPB, so anything that works for him might not work for us.

The more I read about this scalp itch/pain the more I think/hope/pray it can be treated with anti-inflammatory approach, whether that is through diet, supplements, drugs whatever. I notice drinking alcohol (bad for people with chronic inflammation) makes my scalp pain worse the next day. There's not much I can do about my MPB, the approved medications don't work and I've tried just about every non-approved/alternative treatment, but I just hope to get this inflammation down to a level where I can get on with my life.

Ziggyz123
07-20-2015, 06:20 AM
Hey dench,

Thanks for that group buy info. I'm not into using it topically though and I think it comes in a powder for that. For you and I, I think setipiprant will be the ticket because I never had any real loss of hair until I got inflammation and itching. I'm now taking micro doses of fin to see if I should be off of it.

Glad you are getting your situation looked at by some real professionals! That keratin thing, could it be follicular hyper keratosis? I thought I might have had that as well, but one seem told me he doesn't believe in it ? Lol

Irish prides situation, I think his chronic re was due to fin messing with his hormones. He got off it and regrew a lot of hair. But yeah, either way I can't truly pin point what happened with me or you.

Either way, once I get this inflammation to sort of stop, I'm getting a transplant to bring back my hairline/ density

Dench57
07-20-2015, 07:09 AM
I haven't heard of follicular hyper keratosis before but briefly looking at it, it looks like it would have obvious physical signs that I don't have.

As for the Seti, the company that are making it are planning it as an oral. Guys are either planning to make a topical or just take the powder orally, in water or whatever. The safety profile is pretty good. I would be using it orally.

EDIT: Also a rather pointless but funny development nonetheless...my parents are going to visit some old family friends of ours next week they've known for years. I told my parents that Propecia is made by Merck. The guy, my dad's friend, just happened to be one of the directors of Merck in Europe, possibly the head honcho, for over 20 years. Wonder what he has to say about my experience with Propecia causing all this haha...

jamesst11
07-20-2015, 10:36 AM
How bad was your guys itching while you were on fin? Was it localized or all over your scalp? I am over 4 months in and just get itching in my left hair line occassionally. I have noticeable thinned out there as well. At the same time, when thoroughly looking, I see hairs growing throughout my mid hair line and right hair line, but very few in my left. IDK what the f*ck is going on. This is indeed a weird drug.

Ziggyz123
07-20-2015, 02:37 PM
Hey James, yeah unfortunately where my itching was is where I lost hair. I'm taking micro doses now to see if I can stop the itch and inflammation I got at 1.25mg. I still don't know if fin caused mine or minoxidil gave me a bad reaction and then stopping minoxidil made my hair die off and miniaturize. You're early on it right? 4 months or so? I think most give it 6 or so months to see where shedding and what not is and 1year for maximum. I honestly don't understand fin because of where I am. If you start to get sharp pains then definitely quit. I've read stories of people getting great results on dutasteride despite the itch associated with using it.

jamesst11
07-20-2015, 04:19 PM
Why don't you try dutasteride? I sympathize with you right now, and what you're going through. Personally, I became skeptical as hell when I went through it. Dut just squashes DHT. I think if I show modest results and minimal sides on fin, I will try it.

Ziggyz123
07-20-2015, 04:37 PM
Yeah I want to try dutasteride, but I need a prescription because I don't trust generics anymore. When my shed happened I was on dr. Reddys and read a hell of a lot about it causing loss. Who knows though lol. But yeah, I might go for duta depending on the next week. Like I said I'm micro dosing fin and my scalp pain is minimal at the moment. It's also expensive as hell here in the states which is a downer.

burtandernie
07-20-2015, 08:34 PM
I guess its possible in some men inflammation from androgens triggers some immune response and that has something to do with the itch. Some men maybe that never happens with their immune system. With how complicated the immune system is I doubt they will ever figure that one out. The last hair conference had some presentation and it said the itch had no direct connection to MPB of course things always change over time so could not be true.
The issue is what can you really do about it? I dont know the answer there. Seeing different dermatologists might lead to an answer. If anyone could find one its them

Dench57
07-21-2015, 03:21 AM
How bad was your guys itching while you were on fin? Was it localized or all over your scalp? I am over 4 months in and just get itching in my left hair line occassionally. I have noticeable thinned out there as well. At the same time, when thoroughly looking, I see hairs growing throughout my mid hair line and right hair line, but very few in my left. IDK what the f*ck is going on. This is indeed a weird drug.

As someone who probably has the worst MPB itch possible I can say with absolute certainty that the itch = your hair getting raped. That's what makes it so irritating, for me it's literally the worst feeling in the world, had it every day for 8 months now since trying Propecia.

Mine started just above my right temple, all the hairs there are now miniaturised, thin and brittle after 8 months of itching/burning. The great news is, in the last month or so, it has started to really itch and tingle on my left temple as well, and within a month I could see that previously "healthy" left temple area become miniaturised and thin where the itch is. It is absolute ****ing torture because in 8 months there's nothing I've found that I can do about it, just sit here and feel/watch what was a NW1 being burnt into a NW2, NW3 until there's nothing left. It's just gradually getting more and more aggressive.

Before trying Propecia I had no itch whatsoever and no miniaturisation/thinning hairs. I am literally the worst responder ever, just unlocked MPBx10 by trying it. I honestly just can't believe it sometimes, this drug is used by like a million people worldwide successfully for the prevention of hairloss. How can it have permanently accelerated mine. I'm hoping this doctor next week can help me out because it's killing me.

jamesst11
07-21-2015, 02:11 PM
Dench, trust me I feel you brother. This is the worst f*cking thing that has ever happened to me. I lost literally 50% of my hair in one friggin year! The weird thing is, I only get a very occasional itch and only in one particular spot. No burning. Did this happen to you? Or was it itching all over? What was the frequency of the itch? Just a couple times a day, or all day. And can you please better describe the burning sensation? I am just trying to prepare myself and gain as much knowledge of the symptoms as possible.

Dench57
07-27-2015, 03:08 PM
Hi James,

It first started as a slight tingly warm patch above my right temple. In the months since it has continued to become a constant, burning sensation above my right temple, which has now progressed to my left temple. It now itches and tingles 24 hours a day along my hairline. For the first few months it was just on the frontal right part of my scalp, in the last 2 months it has progressed so it is now on and above both temples, and all the hair there has miniaturized and is now weak, thin and brittle. It will be completely gone in another 6 months I imagine.

I went to see that Dr. David Fenton today, supposedly an expert in androgenic alopecia. ****ing clueless, waste of 350 for a 30 minute consultation. He literally just said it was very strange and he couldn't explain why it was happening. All he did was suggest I tried Minoxidil to see if it helped. Right, because Minoxidil is going to help with DHT-induced inflammation. He didn't know anything about androgen receptors and said that inflammation was a negligible component of MPB. How the **** can 24/7 scalp pain, itching and burning be "negligible".

I'm at the end of my tether. I can't quite believe this is happening to me. I've been to see every specialist possible, spending over 1000 in consultation fees, none of them have the slightest idea what is happening. My worst fears are confirmed - that I actually know more about this, from the research and knowledge that I've gained in 8 months of trawling through hairloss forums, than any specialist does. Nobody can help me. I've condemned myself to a life of baldness and scalp inflammation by trying Propecia. Hugely accelerated MPB with 24/7 irritation, burning, itching scalp pain that can never be stopped, not until every hair on my head has been burned away. And I took Propecia as a NW1 with complete thickness. I can't even shave my head - the inflammation in my hair follicles would still be present. Even a hair transplant is out of the question because my hairloss is so aggressive and there is nothing I can do to stabilize it. The stark reality is dawning on me that I'm trapped in this hell, a prisoner in my own body, for the rest of my life. Just from 3 months of taking a stupid hairloss pill.

I'm really running out of ideas. Can this really be due to upregulated androgen receptors? Is this just down to hypersensitivity to DHT? Can I really be that clinical anomaly of all the hundreds of thousands of people that have taken Propecia?

I'm going to my GP tomorrow and begging and pleading with them to put me on some industrial strength anti-inflammatory/immuno-suppressant like Sulfasalazine. I don't think they'll do it. Androgenic alopecia is not a serious concern to the medical profession, I'm learning that now. But I have androgenic alopecia x10. I don't even know if anti-inflammatory route will work, but it's my last hope. I'm basing that off about 2 anecdotal reports that it helped scalp inflammation. I'll take any side effects because they cannot be worse than what Finasteride has done, they cannot be permanent. I've accepted that I have accelerated hairloss and there's nothing I can do to treat that - but there must be something out there, in the thousands of drugs on the market, that can help with this itching/burning.

I've been using Ramotroban from Iron Dragon and it's done nothing to help, even though everyone who used it said it helped with the MPB itch. What a surprise. I feel like I'm just a 1 in 1million, unluckiest guy on the planet. I'll add that to the fail pile with 100 other topicals, supplements etc.

EDIT: Sorry for bringing this amount of negativity as I always do, but I just need to rant and I don't know where else to do it. My family, friends, doctors whatever just don't understand the psychological impact something like this can have. I know there's not much you guys can say but I just need to vent

jamesst11
07-27-2015, 04:01 PM
Hey Dench,
No need to apologize for your negativity, it's a very traumatic experience. For the past year and a half, I have done all I can to keep myself from falling back into a horrible depression. This is a plague and I understand how helpless it makes you feel. Pulling yourself out of bed every day, scared to hell that you won't be able to style your hair. Avoiding rain, wind, social situations, down lighting at restaurants. I wan once even afraid to go in front of my friends and family. I have been seeing a therapist for 4 months... the primary reason, hair loss. What I am saying is you're not alone. I hate the fact that I somehow went from a NW1 to a being horrible diffuse all over, because of decisions I have made... but NOW is the time to realize that some things are out of your control, to NOT let desperation lead you to do more things you'll regret and to control WHAT YOU CAN control... which, with hair loss, is not much unfortunately.

I don't really have too much advice to give you. I am 4.5 months into fin, and my hair has thinned out considerably. But, this is my last option right now, I have come to terms with that. I get itchiness and tingling only in my lefts side and only occassionally and that's where it has thinned out the most. I do see a ton of new hairs, but am not entirely sure if they will ever grow terminal. THE ONLY THING that has helped me with my mild itchiness are two types of shampoos:

1) nizoral 1% (if you're at the end of your rope, f*ck it, even try 2%) and 2) neutrogena t-gel shampoo (this is the tar based shampoo used in Mercks propecia study)... I first wash my hair with warm water, soap it up really good with the shampoo, then comb it through my scalp, with slight aggression and let it sit for 5-10 minutes... then I rinse with freezing cold water and use purador conditioner, again scrub it through my scalp and rinse for like 3 minutes with my head under the freezing cold water. (in the last two steps, I get out of the shower, stand next to the tub and just put my head under the cold water.)... it feels awesome and it works for me.

It saddens me to see any one going through this. Like most people, I have been through A LOT of sh*t in my life. Losing my hair is the hardest thing I have ever gone through. People, especially girls I date, can't seem to grasp this concept... ONE THING I CAN SAY WITH ALL CERTAINTY IS STOP F*CKING AROUND WITH ALL THESE PRODUCTS. I DID THIS FOR A YEAR AND I LOST A LOT OF MONEY, A LOT OF TIME AND A LOT OF HOPE. You're not 1 in a million, but you are unlucky, with hair at least. I am sure you can find 1,000 other ways in which you ARE lucky. Try nizoral 2% and try neutrogena t-gel. These are specifically formulated to address the scalp conditions it seems you are suffering from.

jamesst11
07-27-2015, 04:07 PM
Oh and BTW, you probably know more than any dermatologist when it comes to what you are going through. Apparently there is not a single dermatologist in the world that is sympathetic towards a man with MPB or that knows how to deal with scalp issues. They were just trained to say things like, "try minoxidil" and "i'll write you up a script for propecia"... bastards.

Dench57
07-29-2015, 02:35 PM
Thanks for the words of support James. Unfortunately I've tried both shampoos you've mentioned. I do use a 1% keto shampoo every 2-3 days but it doesn't do much. From what I gather, my scalp pain/itchiness is much more severe than what the vast majority of MPB users experience, so the usual fixes like Nizoral simply aren't strong enough.

It's scary that I'm now in a position where even medical specialists can't help me. I'm trying to figure this out on my own now, I'll keep looking for something.

Ziggyz123
07-29-2015, 03:12 PM
Dench, did you ever get blood work for hormones yet??

Dench57
07-29-2015, 03:29 PM
Dench, did you ever get blood work for hormones yet??

I've got pretty much everything back apart from DHT (lol). Everything within normal range as expected. Still waiting on that, should be a week or so.

Soonbald
07-29-2015, 04:15 PM
you guys are not alone in this...I basically killed 50% of my hair folicles...I wont say how cuz it was such a stupid mistake......but ya I did and it was the worst mistake I could EVER have made in my Life...this happaned 3 years ago and im still pissed to this day that it happaned to me...my hair looked OK after that loss of hair that never regrew...but then MPB took over and made my hair even thinner...I used to have alot of hair..now its wayyyyyyy thinner ****ing depressing that this shit even happaned in the first Place but ofc I was chanceless anyway due to MPB still have progressive thinning and receeding hairline...and also I cant take finasteride cuz that shit gave me severely dry Eyes after just one month of usage so I had to stop that...just using minox and RU now and oil treatment that herbaliser has shared with us all great guy! if I go bald I will most likely kill myself no lie...or get a thin wig and clip it on my existing hairs on top or shit I dunno man it sounds depressing as hell to have a wig..but shaving is DEFFO not an option for me I rather ****ing die

jamesst11
07-29-2015, 04:27 PM
Soonbald,
I definitely hear you man. I made ONE stupid mistake and it f&cked my hair forever. ONE MISTAKE. I definitely know what you all are going through. If it comes time to shave my head, it will be very, very depressing, but I also assume it will be liberating. Hang in there soonbald. Nothing, I mean nothing is worth ending your life over. How do you know that what comes next, after you end your life, will be any less painful or depressing? You just have to survive man...Therapy has helped me a lot.

Dench57
07-30-2015, 03:40 AM
I made ONE stupid mistake and it f&cked my hair forever. ONE MISTAKE.

It's so hard to live with man. I can't imagine going through this forever, I don't want to think about it. Permanently accelerated hairloss and scalp inflammation for taking a pill supposed to stop hairloss. I'm not a religious man but somebody up there ****ing hates me.

Dench57
07-31-2015, 04:08 AM
Hey guys,

So the last two days I've noticed my vertex/crown has started to burn intensely, the same itch/pain that I have at the front. In fact right now it is needle-like stabbing pain in my crown, burning so hard I can't even believe it. Feels like my hair is literally being burnt away. This has just come out of nowhere in the last 2 days, what the ****. Looked at it and there's a ****ing bald spot growing there. All these years I thought I had purely frontal recession like my dad/uncles, but no looks like I'm balding from the back now too. Life just gets better and better.

I'm really desperate now. I can't live everyday of my life in chronic pain. I ordered some Sulfasalazine from InHousePharmacy and I'm going to take it to my doctor and show him how desperate I am, buying Sulfa online. I'll ask him to approve my treatment so I can be monitored with regular blood tests.

You know what the craziest ****ing thing going through my mind is now. I'm thinking if Sulfa doesn't work I truly am out of options...and I'll be considering trying Fin again. I told myself I would never touch that poison again, it's ruined my life and I've read so many horror stories about persistent/permanent sides. I never wanted to **** with my hormones again, but I'm in this now for good. Whatever I have is obviously permanent too, as it keeps getting worse and worse in 6 months off Fin, so can taking Fin really make this scalp pain/accelerated loss WORSE than it is?

I'm using the following logic, this scalp pain/itch is one of two things.
1. DHT attacking my hair follicle
2. Cellular inflammation caused by DHT attacking my hair follicle

Now if Sulfasalazine, an incredibly powerful systemic anti-inflammatory, does not work (I pray to god it does, and I can tolerate it) then it must be simply DHT. Where does that leave me? DHT inhibitors. I've tried topical ones and they don't work.

That leaves trying Propecia again. Using the following theory:
1. My androgen receptors are permanently upregulated. If I take a higher dose of Fin than previously, I could upregulate my ARs even worse. However, if I take a lower/equal dose, my ARs will not be further upregulated than they are, and I will be inhibiting 60% DHT, lessening the scalp pain and slowing my hairloss.

I really, really wish somebody knew about upregulation and whether my theory makes sense. I have no idea, I'm just guessing. I shouldn't be making these kind of potentially body-destroying, life-changing judgements based on my incredibly basic understanding of these mechanisms. I want to speak to a Finasteride expert. I'm going to ask my endocrinologist but I doubt she knows. There's a big possibility that my body will just upregulate whenever it senses a drop in DHT. If that is the case then I truly am screwed.

This is ****ing madness isn't it. Propecia ****ed me up beyond belief I'm so desperate, having exhausted all other options, that I'm considering using it again despite the fact I react horribly to it and will probably just mess myself up even further.

Ziggyz123
07-31-2015, 05:26 AM
Hey Dench, I still think our situations are a tad different. But, I too got these weird sensations at the back of my scalp.. It almost feels tight for a couple of seconds.. Sucks, but it is thinning my crown as well.

If I were you I would actually try a low dose maybe .25mg. I reduced mine and unless it was an odd coincidence, my pain at the left hairline subsided greatly.. I still get it at random but no where near what it used to be. However, I'm still shedding. It's amazing how bad we got on a hairloss drug like you say. This is why I didn't take part in the seti group buy. Too afraid to mess with things anymore.

I know how you feel man because I'm in the same boat :(. I had perfect hair, my life was on track, had it all going as planned.. This inflammation and loss of hair ruined me. My hair was literally everything to me man.. I even one nicest hair for my high school superlatives.. I barely see my girlfriend or her family because her mom is a hairdresser and analyzes my hair all the time.. It's just HELL.

Try to upload a pic of your hair man. I'm curious to see because my loss is odd. If you want, I can also show you how good my hair was as well :(
You're not alone in this brother. Hopefully seti DOES work and we will both be out of this mess.

Ziggyz123
07-31-2015, 05:27 AM
Hey Dench, I still think our situations are a tad different. But, I too got these weird sensations at the back of my scalp.. It almost feels tight for a couple of seconds.. Sucks, but it is thinning my crown as well.

If I were you I would actually try a low dose maybe .25mg. I reduced mine and unless it was an odd coincidence, my pain at the left hairline subsided greatly.. I still get it at random but no where near what it used to be. However, I'm still shedding. It's amazing how bad we got on a hairloss drug like you say. This is why I didn't take part in the seti group buy. Too afraid to mess with things anymore.

I know how you feel man because I'm in the same boat :(. I had perfect hair, my life was on track, had it all going as planned.. This inflammation and loss of hair ruined me. My hair was literally everything to me man.. I even one nicest hair for my high school superlatives.. I barely see my girlfriend or her family because her mom is a hairdresser and analyzes my hair all the time.. It's just HELL.

Try to upload a pic of your hair man. I'm curious to see because my loss is odd. If you want, I can also show you how good my hair was as well :(
You're not alone in this brother. Hopefully seti DOES work and we will both be out of this mess.

Dench57
07-31-2015, 05:34 AM
I know how you feel man because I'm in the same boat :(. I had perfect hair, my life was on track, had it all going as planned.. This inflammation and loss of hair ruined me. My hair was literally everything to me man.. I even one nicest hair for my high school superlatives.

Exactly the same man. I used to get compliments from girls about how thick my hair was. My girlfriend of 3 years dumped me a few months after this scalp pain started, because of how stressed, depressed and distracted I was. I never told her about what I was going through so she probably just thought I was a miserable ****. I'm losing everything because of Propecia. I don't want to go out with my friends anymore. I am dreading the thought of travelling when it should've been the best experience of my life. I don't even want to see her now because of how fast my hair has been decimated, she'll wonder wtf happened to me. I can't ever see myself escaping this hell. I can't remember what it felt like to have a pain free scalp. Sorry I know I've been saying for ages, I'll upload some pics when I can be bothered, I don't really have any good baseline pics though, just ones of how ****ed my hair is now. It actually depresses me taking pictures and comparing them to old ones so I haven't done it regularly.

I'm so desperate now I've even bought Rogaine foam, because I'm now at the stage where I need regrowth. I absolutely hate the idea of a life-time commitment to a messy topical that probably won't even work. I'm almost certain I'll just be a terrible responder and it will eat my hairline even more. I just don't know what to do anymore, Sulfa really is my last chance I don't think it will work, it's based off about 2 anecdotal reports. It's so hard to accept, our hair was perfect, and when we started using hairloss treatments it just ****ed our hair permanently.

Ziggyz123
07-31-2015, 06:53 AM
Dude, I didn't really get results until I used liquid rogain. Try that if you can tolerate ppg.

Dench57
07-31-2015, 07:27 AM
Dude, I didn't really get results until I used liquid rogain. Try that if you can tolerate ppg.

So you tried the foam first and it didn't work? Most of the opinions I've read seem to think the foam is better, easier to apply, less irritating, doesn't make your hair look like shit etc.

FeelsBad
07-31-2015, 07:43 AM
Dench, I totally sympathize since I've been going through the same thing. I'd like to note that minoxidil doesn't seem to work unless you get inflammation under control so focus on that first. Have you tried emu oil?

Dench57
07-31-2015, 08:08 AM
Dench, I totally sympathize since I've been going through the same thing. I'd like to note that minoxidil doesn't seem to work unless you get inflammation under control so focus on that first. Have you tried emu oil?

Hi, I think I've seen you on HairLossHelp with the same name? I can't remember but your story sounded similar to mine, reflex-hyper from Fin and you still had accelerated loss 2 years after stopping? Can you expand a bit on your story and if you've experienced the same scalp pain/itching? Ever manage to get it under control?

I'm sure you're right about minoxidil and the inflammation though. I was actually going to use it just for a few weeks, before it could do any damage in terms of shedding, to see if it relieved the scalp pain (opening up blood vessels or whatever). The hairloss "specialist" I saw in Harley Street suggested I try that, though I think he was pretty clueless.

Dench57
07-31-2015, 08:37 AM
However, morphometric
studies in patients with male pattern AGA treated
with minoxidil showed that 55% of those with
microinflammation had regrowth in response to
treatment, in comparison to 77% in those patients
without inflammation and fibrosis

Taken from the following study on inflammation in AGA: http://www.derma-haarcenter.ch/files/Directory/Publikationen/Androgenetic+alopecia.pdf

Ziggyz123
07-31-2015, 09:11 AM
Yea, I used foam and my hairline was receding and itching. When I switched to liquid it seems like everything thickened up.. Keep in mind, I only used minox at night. If you use it morning and night, I'd use foam am and liquid pm.

Dench57
07-31-2015, 09:18 AM
And yes I have tried Emu Oil a few times. Just made my hair more oily and didn't do anything for the itch/pain.

jamesst11
07-31-2015, 11:31 AM
a couple quick questions to whoever wants to answer them, if you don't mind.

1) How often do you get the itch? is it widespread or localized? how bad is it and how often per day? does it wake you up in the night?
2) please describe the pain and burning sensations?
3) Ziggy, what do you mean by "tightness" like your scalp is being stretched?

jamesst11
07-31-2015, 11:32 AM
Also, did you ever get a creeping sensation, like there was a bug crawling over your scalp?

Dench57
07-31-2015, 01:53 PM
1. Mine is 24 hours a day, never stops. Used to be localized above my right temple, now it's across my whole hairline, on my temples and above them, and also in the last 2 days, my crown (yay!)

2. Really hard to describe because there is such a variety of sensations. There is always a constant "charged" feeling, like I can "feel" all the hair on my scalp, (not on my back or sides, just the top). There is also a constant dull, slightly painful warm patch above my right temple, where it all started. The skin feels warm to touch there. There is always a very subtle itch all along my hairline, but itching doesn't help. Sometimes it can become intensely itchy, that is probably the worst for me. Now the dull, warm spot can often become burning, like seriously hot burning sensation, and then it can become very painful. It also becomes tingly, like there are thousands of microscopic creatures crawling across my scalp. It's as if it's dirty and oily, even if I've just taken a shower. There is also a variety of "needle-like" prickling. Right now there is a very tangible, prickling pain in my crown, like the hairs are wounding me. Rest assured that wherever any of these sensations are, it means your hair is being raped by DHT, or inflammation, or something. All the areas where I've experienced these sensations have miniaturized much quicker than anywhere else. Which makes it not just a physical, but a psychological torture, when you know what is happening.


Anywhere here are some crappy pics. My baseline pics are crappy because they don't really show how thick my hair was behind the recession, my hand is kind of covering the thickness in the baseline pic:
October 2014, before taking Fin: http://postimg.org/image/8mknju775/
July 2015: http://postimg.org/image/6bbcl2jgn/

That red circle is where the itching/burning has been the worst, and that whole area has been raped. Those pictures don't really do justice to how messed up that area is now. I still have most of the hairs I originally had, like I said I don't really shed. But all the hairs have gone from being thick, black terminal hairs to thin, weak, brittle miniaturized hairs. That kind of change is supposed to take years, not months.

Here's a picture of my crown today, where you can see the beginning stages of thinning. I've only just realised (when the burning started) the hairs there are miniaturizing, so I've got that to look forward to now.
http://postimg.org/image/sehsgant1/

Here's a picture of my general hair today. As you can see I still have a lot of hair, and I would say I can just about hide most of the recession to the untrained eye. And this is about as long as my hair gets, so when I get it cut it will be more noticeable. But the texture is awful, it's all brittle and weak at the front. It's a shame I didn't take a baseline pic of my front, I never thought I'd have to worry about anything other than my temples.
http://postimg.org/image/5kshtvbuz/

TooMuchHairWontKillYou
07-31-2015, 02:31 PM
I'm diffuse thinner and Ive got burning sensation on the top of my head. My doctor gave me Laticort liquid. I apply it once in every 3 days after shower (on dry hair) and leave it before next shower (its not greasy at all).

I totally advise you this product it really helps me and fights burning in seconds.

jamesst11
07-31-2015, 06:52 PM
Dench, that's really weird. It seems to have only thinned slightly in ONE region at your right temple. Still, doesn't look bad AT ALL. My hair is more diffuse then that, especially at the temples. I can't really see any thinning on your crown. Here's the thing though... it looked to me like your right temple was already slightly thinning. Is that why you started finasteride? What does your left temple look like? If it hasn't thinned at all then you are probably in luck. Also, it doesn't appear to me like you are diffused at all? Or maybe it's just because your hair is long and dry? I don't know man. This is indeed one weird drug. I am still shedding a pretty solid amount. I have VERY SLIGHT scalp sensations and you are starting to make me nervous bro! I am on my last legs here. :(

Ziggyz123
07-31-2015, 07:24 PM
Yeah Dench, I see what you are talking about and it's exactly what happened to me. Mine is actually way worse than yours.. You're lucky that you have curly thick hair man! Getting a transplant with that will be an amazing yield if you ever do it! Crown looks good to me. Honestly, maybe we both need stronger aa's.. However, on the lower dose of fin, my hair is less oily and my scalp pain isn't all the time. Maybe you could start back on a really low dose? In all honesty, minox would probably regrow that.. Keep you're head up man, you still look good my friend �� I know the burning is just impossible to deal with :(

jamesst11
07-31-2015, 08:07 PM
Ziggy and Dench,
From that loss, you see any new little regrowth? You all lost a lot at once and since it takes no time to lose and a lot of time to regrow, perhaps you're gonna play catch up?

Dench57
08-03-2015, 04:56 PM
Dench, that's really weird. It seems to have only thinned slightly in ONE region at your right temple. Still, doesn't look bad AT ALL. My hair is more diffuse then that, especially at the temples. I can't really see any thinning on your crown. Here's the thing though... it looked to me like your right temple was already slightly thinning. Is that why you started finasteride? What does your left temple look like? If it hasn't thinned at all then you are probably in luck. Also, it doesn't appear to me like you are diffused at all? Or maybe it's just because your hair is long and dry? I don't know man. This is indeed one weird drug. I am still shedding a pretty solid amount. I have VERY SLIGHT scalp sensations and you are starting to make me nervous bro! I am on my last legs here. :(

Yeah the the burning patch was localized to just that spot for several months, where it's thinned the most, in the last few months though it's kinda just everywhere, so I can look forward to thinning and receding all across my hairline. My natural pattern wouldn't have been diffuse thinning, just frontal recession and some thinning at the crown I think. Be thankful you only have slight scalp sensations, I basically have chronic pain, burning and itching. Today it was so bad I had to call in sick to work, just excruciating pain all day and taking both Indomethacin and Naproxen didn't do anything. My quality of life is basically non-existent. It's honestly terrifying. There are still a lot of options for you to get that under control so don't worry too much.


Yeah Dench, I see what you are talking about and it's exactly what happened to me. Mine is actually way worse than yours.. You're lucky that you have curly thick hair man! Getting a transplant with that will be an amazing yield if you ever do it! Crown looks good to me. Honestly, maybe we both need stronger aa's.. However, on the lower dose of fin, my hair is less oily and my scalp pain isn't all the time. Maybe you could start back on a really low dose? In all honesty, minox would probably regrow that.. Keep you're head up man, you still look good my friend �� I know the burning is just impossible to deal with :(

But the thing about transplants is, they can never replicate your natural density. So naturally I had/still kinda have good density, but I'll never be able to get that back with a transplant, I just want to hang on to my natural hair but it's impossible. I know my hair still looks okay now, and for me the scalp pain is absolutely my main concern. My hair is obviously precious to me, but I would honestly drop a norwood if it meant I could live a pain free life.

I honestly don't ever wanna **** with Fin/AA's ever again, but if Sulfasalazine doesn't work, I'll have no choice but to go back on a low dose of Fin and see if it helps. There's no logic to that, Fin got me into this mess and gave me scalp pain and itching in the first place, so I don't see why suddenly it would have the opposite effect and help me now. It's such a messed up situation.

Dench57
08-03-2015, 04:58 PM
Ziggy and Dench,

From that loss, you see any new little regrowth? You all lost a lot at once and since it takes no time to lose and a lot of time to regrow, perhaps you're gonna play catch up?

I certainly haven't seen any regrowth, just continuous miniaturisation and recession. Like I said I don't really shed much anyway, never have and hopefully never will. It's just miniaturisation, which is obviously worse than shedding. With my constant scalp pain/itch my scalp is obviously a very unhealthy environment to grow new hair, anything growing in will just be thin and weak. I'm trying to stay positive and tell myself if I get this under control then the thin hairs I do have can come back stronger. No other choice really.

jamesst11
08-03-2015, 05:49 PM
Well, one thing I can say is that hair regrowth is strange and elusive, yet some how it happens...through the past year, I've looked into my hair under high magnification and couldn't spot much regrowth... HOWEVER, if I have been shedding an average of 150 hairs a day, well that's 4500 PER MONTH (scary I know) which means that over 10 months alone, I have shed 45000 HAIRS... which means, without regrowth, I would have gone slick bald twice, haha... sooo, my point is, you're obviously regrowing your hair, you just can't see it. Did I just blow you mind or what? haha ;)

Dench57
08-04-2015, 04:33 AM
Well, one thing I can say is that hair regrowth is strange and elusive, yet some how it happens...through the past year, I've looked into my hair under high magnification and couldn't spot much regrowth... HOWEVER, if I have been shedding an average of 150 hairs a day, well that's 4500 PER MONTH (scary I know) which means that over 10 months alone, I have shed 45000 HAIRS... which means, without regrowth, I would have gone slick bald twice, haha... sooo, my point is, you're obviously regrowing your hair, you just can't see it. Did I just blow you mind or what? haha ;)

Well I don't really shed, so I'm not physically losing much hair, it's just the hair that I have is miniaturizing and dying :(

Also saw this from a guy in the first Seti group buy:


I've been taking 150mg/day orally for six days now with no side effects and a reduction of scalp inflammation.

Sounds promising. Man if I wasn't going travelling I would be all over that second group buy. By the time it would arrive I'd already be in Thailand though. Something to think about Ziggy!

Ziggyz123
08-04-2015, 05:10 AM
Hey guys, I haven't had regrowth at all. And I still shed about 30 hairs in the shower alone.. My hairline got horrible on one side and the other is itching and still receding.

That's pretty crazy that someone made that claim about seti. I don't understand how they are taking it orally? Are they weighing the powder and like putting it in a glass of water?? I might need to pm someone about a group buy ASAP.

Ziggyz123
08-04-2015, 05:18 AM
Then again, it could be all in that guy's head. He said reduction not cessation and he's been taking a decent dose for a week already. I hope this stuff does actually work.

Dench, do you want me to buy a shipment for you and when you're back I can try and ship it out? Idk if it be worth a try or not, but just let me know man.

Dench57
08-04-2015, 06:14 AM
Yeah that's true he only mentioned reduction. Can only be a good sign though. It's been tested at 1000mg a day with very little side effects, so if it's dose-dependent, higher amounts could result in cessation of inflammation and obviously better for hair. I don't know if the amounts we'll be using can be that beneficial, considering it is being trialled at 500mg-1000mg daily I think. Obviously it's way too expensive for that right now.

I'm actually considering getting on that 2nd group buy (closes 11/08) if I hear any more positive reports about inflammation. Then I'd have to ask my parents to ship it out for me once I had settled in Australia hopefully. I don't even know what the deal would be getting something like that through customs/across the border. Thanks for offering though that's very generous of you!

As for the oral, I'm not sure how people are taking it. I don't think it really matters - just measure it in a special measuring spoon, then pop it in a glass of water and drink it? I think a lot of people are taking some time to measure it and put each dose in empty capsules, which is what I'd do. Few hours spent measuring and making capsules, then you could just stick all the capsules in a bag/bottle and treat it like any other tablet/oral.

dontwanttobald
08-06-2015, 02:49 AM
Would it be possible to get on this group buy? If seti helps with inflammation/itch then I really want in

Not giving up
08-06-2015, 03:05 AM
How is that guy taking IT orally? That would be a dream for me as I hate topicals.
I'd be interested in a group buy.

TeloS
08-06-2015, 04:27 AM
Guys, for me what stopped the itching part was to take Accutane, 10 mg, one day on 2... I had thin hair on these areas, and now it is regrowing fast...
THing is my itching was related to an overexcess of sebum... So it was the perfect solution for me. I was shedding like maybe 50 hair daily during this period, nowadays i can' even see hair falling...
i precise that the itching was unbearable before, i was scratching myself on the crown, and on my left temple. i was also having a LOT of dandruff. I had to shampoo everyday.

Nowadays i do 2 shampoos a week :D

Ziggyz123
08-06-2015, 05:19 AM
Accutane.. Hmm, the only thing I've ever read about that is how it causes telogen effluvium or just further loss. I do have sebum on some of the hairs I shed, right around the root bulb. Maybe it would work? Idk.. A doc prescribed it for you?

Not giving up
08-06-2015, 05:24 AM
I took serious dosages of accutane when I was 18. Cleared my skin wonderfully, but stopped me growing facial hair and made my hair brittle. Once I came off it thickened back up until I took steroids.
Anyway, It could be something to look into maybe

TeloS
08-06-2015, 06:09 AM
Accutane.. Hmm, the only thing I've ever read about that is how it causes telogen effluvium or just further loss. I do have sebum on some of the hairs I shed, right around the root bulb. Maybe it would work? Idk.. A doc prescribed it for you?

Yes, and the dosage is very low, it is like 5 mg a day. A daily dosis for me on a normal treatment should be about 80 mg/day. I have no secondary effects, and in one month, everything was gone. I don't shed anymore, i don't scratch anymore... Just a sensitivity under sun (resolved by putting a day cream incorporating UV protection). I don't even have dry lips. My skin is not oily anymore, and my forehead was damn oily by the middle of the day. The most impressive was probably the amount of hair i regrew on my hairline. not saying that my V shape became a straight line, but just that it strenghtened, and demultiplicated the existing hairs. Now i am waiting also for the same on my left side, even though i have nothing visible in terms of hairloss, my hair became thinner on this side.

like you before accutane, i had white bulb, and that was precisely what was killing the hair. nowadays, when i am lucky (lol) to see one hair on my office, there is no white bulb anymore. Just a normal hair finishing its cycle.

TeloS
08-06-2015, 06:17 AM
I took serious dosages of accutane when I was 18. Cleared my skin wonderfully, but stopped me growing facial hair and made my hair brittle. Once I came off it thickened back up until I took steroids.
Anyway, It could be something to look into maybe

It is true though, that for some persons it did the contrary, my guess is these people, when they took accutane for their oily skin, did NOT have an oily scalp. Therefore, the skin scalp was so dry that it was killing the retention of hair, causing the telogen effluvium or just a shedding...

in the end it is all a question of dosing : dry the sebum of the scalp, but not too much. With such a low dose, my skin is not even dry : just normal... No more itching, no more oily hair by the end of the day, giving me the possibility to shampoo only 2 times a day, the less you shampoo, the thicker become my hair etc... Virtuous circle, that i would like to preserve, following the advices of herbaliser, it looks great on him at least.

Ziggyz123
08-06-2015, 06:42 AM
TeloS, one more question if you don't mind.. Are you using finasteride or dutasteride at all?

TeloS
08-06-2015, 08:20 AM
TeloS, one more question if you don't mind.. Are you using finasteride or dutasteride at all?

https://imageshack.com/i/eysUON3Qj
Nothing, ahem no, i mean, i am very interested by the subject but i am not really really close to be bald ... In ANY case, you should really take me seriously, unfortunately i don't have before picture, but it was terrible before : the itching, the oilyness etc... I believe it can totally be the solution for some people suffering from alopecia related to sebum excess ! Talk about this to your doctor ! If your hair is greasy, you are itching constantly and NOTHING work (i had all the shampoo for dermatitis like nizoral, regenepure etc... NOTHING WORKED AND I WAS SHEDDING SO MUCH)

Finally, be very careful about the daily dose. I mean, the heavier you are, the better you are able to modulate a small dose. For instance someone who weight 100 kgs, will have less effect in his body than me, being 80 kgs, taking 10 mg one day on two. I know that accutane has a bad reputation, but at the maximum dose ! here we are talking about some dose sooo small than you CANNOT have secondary effects. Nothing to compare with propecia i guess.

Remember that i am talking about alopecia related to the EXCESS of sebum. Those who are itching because of a DHT excess, i am sorry, but i have no clue.

Ziggyz123
08-06-2015, 08:38 AM
I'll definitely think about it, but you don't look that probe to hairloss my dude. I got real bad on finasteride.. Accutane could put me over the edge because it's a very potent drug. A lot of people lose hair on it, in fact I read stories about people telling their doctors that they dont car about hairloss they just want clear skin.. It's one of the most common sides of accutane..

TeloS
08-06-2015, 08:48 AM
I'll definitely think about it, but you don't look that probe to hairloss my dude. I got real bad on finasteride.. Accutane could put me over the edge because it's a very potent drug. A lot of people lose hair on it, in fact I read stories about people telling their doctors that they dont car about hairloss they just want clear skin.. It's one of the most common sides of accutane..

I did 3 cures of accutane... 6 month each to the max dose... I am now 26 and well... I have the v shape hairline but that's all and I have it since as long as I remember, 15 yo maybe. I believe that if I hadnt been under this drug sebum would have destroyed my hair

I mean, its a fact for me: I unfortunately am part of these people having a relapse after roaccutane. My skin becomes oily again. That probably explains why I didn't loose my hair. My scalp isn't dry, then I can modulate the sebum, and find a sort of equilibrium. That said, I have one friend that did one cure, he is totally bald by 24. So I don't know I guess I am a special case.

It's all about a good talk with a good doctor! 5mg each day is NOTHING and won't hell of a dry your body. I believe that here the dosage CAN be a possible key.

PS : when I think about my friend his dad was totally bald by 25 something like this so this isn't even probably related to accutane!!

Dench57
08-07-2015, 03:52 AM
I've considered Accutane before but got scared off after reading about serious sides (it was withdrawn from US market for a reason!) and of course the most common side: accelerated hairloss .

TeLoS from your picture it doesn't look like you have MPB. You obviously had a very oily scalp though which caused the itch and was kept in check by Accutane. Not sure if that would work for the vast majority of us MPB sufferers.

jamesst11
08-07-2015, 12:38 PM
I am getting scared, because I am five months now, have increased shed and am experiencing some burning, tingling and occasional itchiness... man, this drug is confusing the F*CK OUT OF ME!

I don't understand why, but I randomly came across one thing that has helped me - When I am just sitting, watching t.v. or something, I notice the sensations more... I take my hand and firmly place it on my crown, apply pressure and and like rotate my entire scalp around, in circular motions, stretching the skin. THE SENSATIONS IMMEDIATELY STOP!! They most often return 3-4 minutes later... but the completely stop. It makes me think that the itchy/tingly/ burning definitely has something to do with blood flow, and perhaps stagnant blood being "trapped" in the tiny capillaries in the scalp. It makes sense that this would occur, especially if the scalp is inflamed... the blood needs to move. This is why we itch when we have a scab or other dermal tissue injury.

TeloS
08-07-2015, 01:27 PM
I've considered Accutane before but got scared off after reading about serious sides (it was withdrawn from US market for a reason!) and of course the most common side: accelerated hairloss .

TeLoS from your picture it doesn't look like you have MPB. You obviously had a very oily scalp though which caused the itch and was kept in check by Accutane. Not sure if that would work for the vast majority of us MPB sufferers.

I believe the accelerated hairloss come when people have only an oily face and not an oily scalp. Then the scalp become so dry that he cannot retain anymore the hair. In my case I had also an oily scalp.
But that's not all! I believe also that you cannot dry all the sebum of your scalp, you have to modulate the quantity of sebum: then come the low dose of accutane, and not a maximal one.
Since I came back on it with such a low dose, my skin in general is not even dry : a bit oily but it's very normal. I mean, I don't have the dry skin people usually have when they take it, I just have a normal skin with a slight tendency to end oily at the end of the day. Then my hair follows the same path: now when I see some hair falls, and trust me it's very hard nowadays (I feel so good with it when I had something like 50 hairs falling daily before) it does not have anymore the white bulb it had.

lacazette
08-07-2015, 02:27 PM
I took serious dosages of accutane when I was 18. Cleared my skin wonderfully, but stopped me growing facial hair and made my hair brittle. Once I came off it thickened back up until I took steroids.
Anyway, It could be something to look into maybe

DUDE you took high dose accutane treatment like me, we have CCC ALOPECIA!!!

PLease come here I describe everything : https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/20988-Accutane-isotretinoi...

That comes from researchers at the last 2015 hair science meeting!! Alteration in VitaminA metabolism and signaling = CCCA

And that CCCA comes from a lymphocytic inflammatory process (LLP) (an autoimmune reaction of our cells), that lead to a slowly permanent hairloss!! We need to act my friend,

so everyone who had take full treatment for months, the drug played with our retinoids receptors, signalling, etc.. FOR LIFE! so please come on the thread! It is FOR SURE aggravating our baldness!

Sizzling
08-11-2015, 12:41 AM
Hi guys,

Although this is my first post in this forum, I have seen this thread 2.5 years ago. It is a little disheartening that after such a long time, nobody has found the solution to the scalp inflammation.

Allow me to share my story. I am from Singapore, age 34. When I was 17, I had bad cystic acne, and that really screwed me bad. Accutane got me out of that shit but by then the scars were already there. Anyway, I see some people mentioning that the scalp inflammation could be caused by Accutane. I think that's possible, but for me, it certainly wasn't the case. I was sure it was Finasteride.

In Dec 2012, a colleague commented that my hair was getting thin at the top, and that comment really affected me. So I surfed the net and in many of the hairloss forums, the message was unanimous - jump on the big 3 to save your hair.

So without much thoughts, i got a prescription for propecia and that's when the nightmare began. Within 2 weeks, i started to develop itch and a tingling sensation in my scalp. The below are the symptoms I experienced, which are 100% consistent with many of you guys:

1. Itchy and Oily scalp
2. Sebum plugs
3. Warm radiating pain, especially around the crown
4. Prickly sensation
5. Tingling sensations, like hair breaking off and droping out
6. Super sensitive scalp - could feel pain even when the ac at the entrance of shopping malls was blowing down on my scalp
7. Scalp feels charged - like electric currents passing through

It was a very emotional and distressing time. I felt alone as none of my family, including my wife believed what I said. They told me I was imagining it and I was too focused on my hairloss.

Just like some of you had shared, I felt I was not shedding much. Just that my hair seems to be in a terrible state - miniaturized, lifeless, limp, brittle

So i buzzed down to a zero, hoping that the use of Nizoral and other medicated shampoos would helped. Nothing did.

And that was when I discovered something really scary.

I washed my hair in the basin and realized that there were many tiny strands of hair that came out. Not only are they miniaturized, but they are wriggly looking, and most of them are curled up. When i tried to straighten them, I realized they can be much longer than they look

There is no way you will see them when you shampoo your hair because they get camouflaged in all the bubbles.

If you do not believe what I say, try washing your hair in your white wash basin without any soap or shampoo, or when taking a shower, after you shampoo, instead of rinsing, rub the soap bubbles on the white tiles of your shower cubicle. The shampoo bubbles will slide down slowly and you look closely at the tiles you will be able to see these tiny hairs. If you are using a smart phone, sometime this little wriggly hairs will stick to the screen. Pay close attention and you should see some.

I believe this is the main reason why we see our hair thinning so quickly but do not see much shedding. I believe most or all of the hair we shed on a daily basis have been replaced by these tiny wriggly hairs.

Do not freak out if you see them. I did. The only consolation in the last 2 years was my tingling did go away till it was almost non-existent. About 2 months after I started having the tingling, and after much research on the internet, I read that one guy had success after removing all supplements from his diet. His reasoning was that the liver was overloaded with too much medicine (in this case was finasteride for me) and supplements and it was necessary to allow it to rest. I was then also on biotin, B12, spirulina and stuff. I also tried to calm myself down as much as possible. Too much emotions also hurts the liver - this is the hardest because we know how soul destroying hairloss is.

Anyway, the tingling did go away, thankfully, and my scalp felt better, but i can feel that it is not the same like before. It still feels oily, sensitive and itchy every now and then. I had oily skin and hair since puberty, but i never had this sensitive scalp before finasteride.

Anyway, many people seem to agree that DHT is attacking the hair follicles. I do not disagree on this. But if you study the trends, this scalp inflammation seems to affect those with diffused hairloss and not the standard MPB that much. I have asked a friend who lost his hair in his early 20s. He is NW7 by the way. Zero itch.

I also discover that the itch is worst when the scalp is oily. When it is clean (right after shower) the itch is less, but the warm radiating pain seems to set in more often.

I have been to many doctors and they seem to all point to Seb derm. I think this is possible, because in my case, finasteride caused hyper androgenicity to have set in to unleash a serious bout of seb derm.

I still have the itch and sensitive scalp on and off, but it is much better than my first couple of months after I got off Finasteride. I felt the need to post my experience here and hope it may be helpful to some of the guys here. To have that constant tingling to remind you of your hairloss is a horrible feeling, but it is possible that the feeling will go away, at least it did in my case, even though not 100%

Not giving up
08-11-2015, 03:34 AM
DUDE you took high dose accutane treatment like me, we have CCC ALOPECIA!!!

PLease come here I describe everything : https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/20988-Accutane-isotretinoi...

That comes from researchers at the last 2015 hair science meeting!! Alteration in VitaminA metabolism and signaling = CCCA

And that CCCA comes from a lymphocytic inflammatory process (LLP) (an autoimmune reaction of our cells), that lead to a slowly permanent hairloss!! We need to act my friend,

so everyone who had take full treatment for months, the drug played with our retinoids receptors, signalling, etc.. FOR LIFE! so please come on the thread! It is FOR SURE aggravating our baldness!

I don't know bud. I messed up my hair because of steroids. Once I stopped accuttane my hair was glorious, it did get a bit britle when I was taking it but I only have myself and steroid use to blame for the accelerated loss of late.

Dench57
08-11-2015, 03:40 AM
Hi Sizzling,

Your story sounds exactly the same as mine. All those sensations you describe I also had within a few weeks of starting Propecia. And like you, the hairs that I shed are all kinked, curled and so thin/brittle you can barely see them, when before they were long and straight. However I don't have diffuse loss, mine is the standard horseshoe pattern with receding temples. Thankfully my forelock is still in good shape, for now.

How long roughly did it take for you to recover since quitting Propecia?

Soonbald
08-11-2015, 04:27 AM
I am getting scared, because I am five months now, have increased shed and am experiencing some burning, tingling and occasional itchiness... man, this drug is confusing the F*CK OUT OF ME!

I don't understand why, but I randomly came across one thing that has helped me - When I am just sitting, watching t.v. or something, I notice the sensations more... I take my hand and firmly place it on my crown, apply pressure and and like rotate my entire scalp around, in circular motions, stretching the skin. THE SENSATIONS IMMEDIATELY STOP!! They most often return 3-4 minutes later... but the completely stop. It makes me think that the itchy/tingly/ burning definitely has something to do with blood flow, and perhaps stagnant blood being "trapped" in the tiny capillaries in the scalp. It makes sense that this would occur, especially if the scalp is inflamed... the blood needs to move. This is why we itch when we have a scab or other dermal tissue injury.



james maybe you just explained "one" of the reasons for "MPB" clogged blood+trapped DHT=MPB I mean why do some people get regrowth from "scalp exercises" ? or scalp massages or even scalp brushing?...I have read forums of people getting regrowth or stoppage of hairloss by doing one of these... maybe it just works for "some" guys and some it doesnt obviously..

Sizzling
08-11-2015, 04:49 AM
Hi Dench57,

After I stopped Finasteride, I still had the tingling for another couple of months. It only started to die down when I stopped all supplements. I am not sure if mood has a part to play. Once the tingling reduced, my spirits were greatly lifted, and it definitely have a positive effect on things.

Whenever I feel down because of the thinning hair, I always have a sensitive scalp for the next few days

Ziggyz123
08-11-2015, 05:26 AM
That was a good post, sizzling. I and probably everyone else in this thread experienced hyper androgenicity. The weird thing for me is it happened after a year on fin. Supposedly it happens much sooner to people. My shedding was a massive one though wth increased libido, oily scalp, the whole 9. The wieird thing for me is it really only hit the left side of my hairline and it like blew a hole where my temples meet the sides of my hair.

I actually ran out of finasteride for the pat three days so I'm trying to see how things are going to go. I'll tell you this though, reflex hyper androgenicity DEFINITELY triggers sebborrheic dermatitis. I became and still am sensitive to certain foods I eat. Not sure if there is anyway for this to stop, but I'm hoping setipiprant will be the answer.

Dench57
08-11-2015, 06:55 AM
The wieird thing for me is it really only hit the left side of my hairline.

This is the weird part. As you know I had the same where it just seemed concentrated on one spot on my right hairline. If we assume it's DHT, then does that mean your left, and my right side, were more genetically predisposed to be sensitive to DHT in those areas? Loads of people have asymmetrical hairloss/recession.

It just doesn't seem to add up. The equal burning along my hairline makes sense, all those follicles are more sensitive to DHT than anywhere else on my scalp. But why such an intense burning on the right side when there is very little on the left? That seems more like a traditional inflammation, which hits random patches, rather than DHT which generally follows a pre-defined genetic pattern? It doesn't make much sense.

Sizzling
08-11-2015, 06:59 AM
That was a good post, sizzling. I and probably everyone else in this thread experienced hyper androgenicity. The weird thing for me is it happened after a year on fin. Supposedly it happens much sooner to people. My shedding was a massive one though wth increased libido, oily scalp, the whole 9. The wieird thing for me is it really only hit the left side of my hairline and it like blew a hole where my temples meet the sides of my hair.

I actually ran out of finasteride for the pat three days so I'm trying to see how things are going to go. I'll tell you this though, reflex hyper androgenicity DEFINITELY triggers sebborrheic dermatitis. I became and still am sensitive to certain foods I eat. Not sure if there is anyway for this to stop, but I'm hoping setipiprant will be the answer.

Hi Ziggyz123

I hope this is really seb Derm. At least we have a diagnosis that we can work on. Still I think this seb derm is not your average case. I read that people don't have thinning or hairloss directly because of seb derm. I guess for us it is kind of an auto immune reaction causing our immune system to flare up and burning off the follicles.
I have read in some cases even ladies get the same problem, after taking a long course of anti biotics. I have also read that psoriasis, eczema and seb derm are all triggered by auto immune problem.

All these conditions are bitches and can be life long. Many people can't seem to get a cure and can just rely on medication to curb the symptoms

Some people have had success controlling eczema with steroid cream but this only suppresses the immune system instead of getting it back to the right balance. Stuff like hydrocortisone can provide relief but in the long run thins out the skin. I am quite sure I do not want to thin out my scalp. Thin hair is bad enough

Dench57
08-11-2015, 07:29 AM
My Sulfasalazine has arrived, but I'm waiting to see my endo next week and basically telling them I'm going to use it with or without their permission but ask if I can have regular blood tests at my local GP. I should also get my DHT results back next week so will update you guys next week.

Not giving up
08-11-2015, 11:26 AM
Okay, right, guys, I have posted on this thread before, spoke to some of you briefly, you may know my story - steroid induced hairloss back in March with heavy shedding and very painful burning scalp with dandruff since.
I have posted on this before so you know I'm not some snake oil dude. You may have tried this but honestly it might have just bought me some serious time in the fight against hairloss and it scares me how ruddy easy and quick it was. I'm so frightened in fact I've delayed saying anything because I've been certain something would go wrong and it would get bad again but It hasnt.

The other day a guy posted about reducing sebum. He wanted to lower the amount on his scalp as it was making his hair flakey (a problem I relate)
A guy popped up with the simple solution of using freezing cold water to wash his hair.
I assumed this would do nothing for my hairloss but figured it might help with the dandruff.
The first day I did it nothing really happened, my scalp just felt really tight.
The second day though my shedding had gone from around 50+ hairs down to about 15-20.
The third day, I had 4 hairs in my drain catcher thing. I haven't shed such few hairs since before the steroids. Best moment ever.

Anyway, great news if you're a shedder, if you're not, here's the better news. My burning pain, severely lessened. My scalp feels good. It's not gone 100% throughout the day, but for the most part it's back to normal and it hasn't bothered me at work or throughout my day like it normally constantly did.

Now obviously I'm not saying cold water is a cure to hairloss and the burning, I don't doubt DHT is still attacking the hair and reeking havoc, but It has provided serious relief.

I can't desrcibe how amazing it felt to wash my hair, look in the drain catcher and see 4 hairs, it nearly made me cry with happiness. (Such an emotional guy seen i)

This isn't a cure, but if it makes your life more bearable it's surely worth a shot, so give it a try. If it doesn't work then you've lost nothing. I really didn't think it would do anything but I just googled cold shower benefits and apparently it's not an uncommon thing to slow hairloss that way, a fair few cases.

So yeah, I hope it works for you and eases this bloody scalp pain either way. Do it for a week and see what happens, if the scalp responds well it could be a simple solution to a very upsetting problem.

Fingers crossed it continues to work for me.

Soonbald
08-11-2015, 11:33 AM
I have to agree on this, I had Little itching near my neck area at the back of my head.."not the Crown" but further down...anyway I did the Cold shower and it helped to get rid of that "irritating scalp" problem...it deffo helps...I Think heat in the scalp is making the blood "boil" therefor making the scalp itch..lol kidding but it probably reduces inflammation in the scalp skin...also it kills off all DHT in the scalp too "the Cold water" no but its a nice thought haha :)

Dench57
08-11-2015, 02:07 PM
Not giving up - I can see by the tone of your post you're extremely happy to have relieved your symptoms ,it must be a great feeling and I'm glad for you! This burning scalp is hell. I've tried doing the cold shower thing but it didn't help much, though I just rinsed my hair with cold water for like a minute at the end of the shower. Did you do your full shower, shampoo etc with cold water or just blast it at the end?

Not giving up
08-11-2015, 02:51 PM
Thanks Dench, I follow most of your posts on this subject and I know you suffer just as much if not more than anyone else with this pain. It's not normal MPB and it needs more attention.
Anyway, I tend to shower and wash my hair seperately now. I use a mixer tap, so I shower my body in the bath (I don't have a standing shower) with normal warm water.
I then get out, dry off, lean over the bath and put my drain catcher in to give me an idea of what I'm shedding. I rinse my hair through with cold water for about a minute (I don't really count) and then apply whatever shampoo in using that day (regenepure Dr every 3 days, and then tricomin or head and shoulders on my off days)
I then rinse with cold water for slightly longer, probably about two straight minutes until I can tell my scalp has really felt the brunt of the cold. It's not overly pleasant first thing in the morning, but it certainly wakes you up. I will say I do still notice greater shedding when using regenepure than on the other days. Tricomin and head and shoulders now produce 3-4 hairs, regenepure can still produce a fair amount, not sure why that is tbh.
Either way. After that my scalp feels pretty decent the rest of the day.

I truly hope you find a good solution Dench, I know how much this effects you and I know you're going travelling soon. Your hair still looks good, so enjoy the travelling as much as you can, life is too short, I hope your scalp pain becomes a distant memory sooner rather than later bro.

jamesst11
08-11-2015, 03:29 PM
I not only wash my head with freezing cold water now, I apply an ice pack to it at the end of the day for 15-20 minutes. I just bought one of those with an elastic strap and strap it around my chin... I don't care what any one will say, it honestly relieves any itch and burning. The other thing is that, FOR ME, scalp exercises and massage work wonders. I will be sitting still and feel the tingle and burning occasionally and I will place my palm on my head and move my entire scalp around and it KILLS it dead in it's tracks. I do this every so often throughout the day.

Sizzling
08-11-2015, 06:05 PM
Does anyone know if the inflammation stops when the follicle is dead or does it continue to cause pain, itch and discomfort? Has anyone gone bald and totally relieved of this inflammation thereafter?

burtandernie
08-11-2015, 08:15 PM
The itchy scalp thing is odd. A lot of men with MPB complain of it but some say propecia made it go away. Then you have some that say it made it worse or had no effect. If its an immune thing its odd why some men get it and some dont. Other people with bad MPB dont have any itching at all.
Ive tried a lot of stuff over the years nothing helps. Shampoo might but its back the next day pretty much

Dench57
08-12-2015, 04:30 AM
I truly hope you find a good solution Dench, I know how much this effects you and I know you're going travelling soon. Your hair still looks good, so enjoy the travelling as much as you can, life is too short, I hope your scalp pain becomes a distant memory sooner rather than later bro.

Thanks man. Like you said, this isn't normal MPB, this is something much worse, and it's really scary when no doctors seem to know or care what is happening. I know my hair still looks okay, for me the scalp pain is my number 1 priority. Millions of men manage to live with hairloss but I'd wager not many people in the world experience this level of pain and inflammation with their hairloss.


Does anyone know if the inflammation stops when the follicle is dead or does it continue to cause pain, itch and discomfort? Has anyone gone bald and totally relieved of this inflammation thereafter?

This is a good question. I'd say the pain/itching stops when the follicle is dead. I don't have any pain or itching on my slick bald temples - there's nothing left to "attack".


The itchy scalp thing is odd. A lot of men with MPB complain of it but some say propecia made it go away. Then you have some that say it made it worse or had no effect. If its an immune thing its odd why some men get it and some dont. Other people with bad MPB dont have any itching at all.
Ive tried a lot of stuff over the years nothing helps. Shampoo might but its back the next day pretty much

This is why the simplified explanation that it's just DHT attacking follicles doesn't add up. People with super-aggressive hairloss go from NW2-NW6 in the space of a few years and yet claim they never had any itching, despite the fact DHT is obviously raping their follicles. It's frustrating that there is literally no medical literature or explanation on this hellish component of MPB in 2015 for christ's sake. When I went to see that private hairloss "specialist" in Harley Street, I explained to him about all the people on the forums reporting pain/itching/burning, and he just looked at me with a blank expression, clearly had no idea. The pathology of MPB is incredibly complex and there is so much stuff going on downstream from DHT attaching to the follicle.

burtandernie
08-12-2015, 03:33 PM
We know MPB isnt as simple as DHT. If its an onion DHT and androgens are the outermost layer, but its a problem with many deeper layers to it. It is a largely androgen mediated problem though, but current treatments do not perfectly stop androgens. We know androgens cause MPB though its pretty well established at this point and castration proves that is the case. Timing though is also important, and stuff like fin actually raises T and I dont know how much proof there is that T is harmless.

Soonbald
08-12-2015, 04:03 PM
well I never have any itchyness or burning feeling my scalp is in perfect condition, I have no problems with my scalp at all..no tingling feeling either...and im norwood 2.5 and diffuse thinning all over the scalp...so thats that...

Sizzling
08-12-2015, 08:40 PM
I have my own thoughts about diffuse thinning. I think the diffuse thinning happens to everyone.

Everyone lose density with age, even those with a full head of hair. Those who have thick head of hair to start with may never see any scalp till the day they die. People like me who have little to start with succumb quickly. But in my case, it is quite obvious the inflammation had a big part to play in the last couple of years.

By the way, do you guys ever shed grey hair? I think grey hairs are resistant to MPB. And they dont lose thickness. If there is a way to convert black to grey hair just to keep it, i will be first in line

Dench57
08-19-2015, 12:33 PM
My GP gave me the go ahead to start on Sulfasalazine tomorrow boys. Wish me luck.

Not giving up
08-19-2015, 02:28 PM
Just read up on that stuff, I really hope it works for you Dench. Honestly I do.

My scalp pain continues to be kept at bay by cold water showers. If I use head and shoulders or tricomin I shed less than 5 hairs, if I use regenpure however, must be about 20-30. It's really strange. Either way, my scalp continues to feel okay 95% of time, the other 5% is a mild itch in a specific area that quickly goes.

Keep us posted with your progress Dench, I've got my fingers crossed for you.

Ziggyz123
08-22-2015, 03:17 PM
Yo guys,

Just a quick update on my sitch. Been off of propecia completely for about a week and two days. Scalp pain in in general is really minimal now. Also, I'm shedding the same amount. If I comb through my hair I lose ten in just one swipe. Lose about 20-30 showering and another 20 just blow drying it. I'm also less horny to a point that actually feels normal and controllable if that makes any sense.

The bad thing is that I have saved up 10k for a transplant now, but I won't be on any Anti androgen drugs.. shitty situation we are all in. I might go back on minoxidil through belgravia in London. They sell an 8% with dht inhibiting ingredients as well as caffeine so that sounds like something that could help. A transplant is the way though.

That's all for now..

Dench, good luck with your new treatment man!!!! Hope you kill off this bull sh**.

WHTC Clinic
08-22-2015, 04:44 PM
Dave123. Did the doctor who ruled out MPB mention anything about unbalanced PH or taking a sample for testing?

mic28
08-28-2015, 11:21 PM
Any update Dench and Ziggy?

Ziggyz123
08-29-2015, 12:32 AM
Hey mic,

I have barely any more inflammation at the hairline. It used to be 24:7 now it will happen maybe twice a day of that?

I'm going to try out 1 mg propecia to make sure that it is definitely that causing my inflammation though. I'll report back in about 1week

mic28
08-30-2015, 03:28 AM
Hey Ziggy,

Glad to hear that the inflammation is calming down. I haven't taken finasteride in a week or so. Inflammation has calmed down but scalp is still flaky. May take a couple of weeks for that to clear.

Quick update on the 1mg minoxidil. Was at the dermatologist the other day and she said she noticed fluff growing in the temples. I'm a bit skeptical at this early stage so il keep monitoring it. She said it will darken with time so just a matter of waiting.

Have you noticed shedding reducing?

Rahul dhruv
08-30-2015, 10:29 PM
I too have same problem of hair loss. daily i loss hair more than normal. m only 23 now, should i go for hair transplant.

Rahul dhruv
08-30-2015, 10:50 PM
I too have the same problem of etching all over the scalp and to avoid this i wash my hair daily with the medicated shampoo and really believe me it works.