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Desmond84
12-24-2012, 02:02 AM
With regards to genetic markers, one of the guys on our forum did some amazing investigative work and found out that they employed a geneticist to come up with specific genetic markers for their trial back in April 2011.

It's great news since it means they've been working on this genetic test for a while and Phase 3 should start sometimes in 2013 :)

-- Fingers crossed of course

Artista
12-24-2012, 06:10 AM
I agree, these companies have been working on their hair loss treatments, respectively, a long time now. Something WILL arise from these companies for us. At the very LEAST any treatments available will be a step ABOVE what we currently have available that works. I dont feel that it will be minimal.

Kirby_
12-24-2012, 09:03 AM
Exactly! Anything even slightly better than shitty old finasteride and minoxidil will be a major step forward.

2020
12-24-2012, 08:51 PM
Histogen should at least bump you up 1-2 norwoods once it's available though.

it went from: not sure if it will even make it into the market... to: 1-2 NW gain + more density everywhere else... that's great, where are those pictures he promised?

Desmond84
12-28-2012, 10:33 PM
Guys I can't wait till I get my hands on Ji Gami! I hate taking Propecia...

How long do you think it will take them to get 2000-3000 ppl for Phase 3 trial?

rdawg
12-28-2012, 10:40 PM
Guys I can't wait till I get my hands on Ji Gami! I hate taking Propecia...

How long do you think it will take them to get 2000-3000 ppl for Phase 3 trial?

When is phase III expected to start for aderans?

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 12:15 AM
When is phase III expected to start for aderans?

They have to finish Phase 2 in April 2013, submit an IND for Phase 3 to FDA and then enrol around 3000 subjects. All in all, FDA may take around 3 months.

The question is how long will they take to find 3000 participants! :(

hellouser
12-29-2012, 01:20 AM
The question is how long will they take to find 3000 participants! :(

Not long I bet, a little bit of simple marketing and some paperwork with all applicants wont take long. I'm sure they will round up 3,000 applicants REALLY easily.

I'm sure they could find plenty of individuals just off this forum.

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 02:00 AM
I tell you what though...if they start Phase 3 before 2014, you can be sure we can have this product available sometime in 2015!

Oh god, please make sure they do!

HARIRI
12-29-2012, 05:23 AM
Desmond84. Do you think Aderans product Ji gami will be superior to Histogen? Although they work in different ways. What are your thoughts? You sound very knowledgeable in these future techniques.

neversaynever
12-29-2012, 05:43 AM
I tell you what though...if they start Phase 3 before 2014, you can be sure we can have this product available sometime in 2015!

Oh god, please make sure they do!

3000 is a huge number for a injection process. I expect theyll start at the earliest late 2013. Remember it would be staggered.

They might inject the first subjects even in mid 2013 and keep recruiting. The final subject might be injected in early 2014. Making the finish at early 2015, which for me means 2016 release date.

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 07:04 AM
Desmond84. Do you think Aderans product Ji gami will be superior to Histogen? Although they work in different ways. What are your thoughts? You sound very knowledgeable in these future techniques.

To be honest, superior is the wrong word...these TWO treatments will serve different purposes:

- Aderans is meant to maintain the hair you have PERMANENTLY

- Histogen will be the growth stimulant (aka Minoxidil on steroids! LOL)

So, for us who have gone through MPB already we will probably need both treatments.

On the plus side, you will be able to dump your Propecia once you get the Aderans done :)

Histogen will be used to grow back some of your temple hairs/crown so that you can hopefully avoid a hair transplant!

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 07:06 AM
3000 is a huge number for a injection process. I expect theyll start at the earliest late 2013. Remember it would be staggered.

They might inject the first subjects even in mid 2013 and keep recruiting. The final subject might be injected in early 2014. Making the finish at early 2015, which for me means 2016 release date.

That's what I mean!

It might take them over a year to get to 3000, which means even more waiting!

neversaynever
12-29-2012, 08:41 AM
That's what I mean!

It might take them over a year to get to 3000, which means even more waiting!

Either way, if they go into phase 3, its a huge huge step forward. Previous attempts have not reached phase 3.

Also, if they start mid 2013 and keep recruiting for another year. Finally reach 3000 in mid 2014, it means those first people treated will start showing results. Which means they will know early on if its a winner.

Wish I was 2 years younger!

Artista
12-29-2012, 10:30 AM
Desmond,,your ongoing activities here are very appreciated. Thanks again

rdawg
12-29-2012, 01:38 PM
They have to finish Phase 2 in April 2013, submit an IND for Phase 3 to FDA and then enrol around 3000 subjects. All in all, FDA may take around 3 months.

The question is how long will they take to find 3000 participants! :(

Sounds like they should start by september/october 2013.

3000 participants shouldnt take more than a month or two to find.

Or that's true, they could do 1500 in mid-2013, then the rest by mid 2014.

baldybald
12-29-2012, 02:49 PM
Aderans will give a better results than Histogen

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Hey guys,

Here's a very critical study I found that directly relates to how effective future treatments will be for us who have already started going through MPB:

Irreversibility of hair follicle changes after 30 months of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Konstantinova N, Korotkii N.G, Sharova N, Barhunova E, Gaevski D. Nioxin Research Inc, Atlanta, USA Moscow Medical University 2001

We studied horizontal and vertical biopsy from 15 caucasian 24-41 year old males diagnosed with bitemporal recession Androgenetic Alopecia (AA) for 1.5 –18 years (average 7.4 years). All 15 biopsies were stained with H&E, Van Gieson and with other collagen specific stainings.

1. Eleven pts with AA longer than 3 years had perifollicular fibrosis - collagen fibers were compact and formed a small scar-like formation around each anagen hair follicle(HF). Two patients - 33 year old with 18 month AA and 23 year old with 20 month AA did not have these hair follicle changes. Two 26-year-old patients with 30 and 36 month AA respectively were found to have some not so severe collagen fiber changes.

2. Infundibulum of HF dilatated 124-192 mm and most of them covered with keratinazed plug lacking normal hair shaft growth.

3. Decreased number of hair follicles 1.75-2,45 per sq. mm from 3.5-5 per sq. mm in control group.

4. None of anagen HF was situated in subcutaneous fat. We showed a correlation between length of the AA and severity/ thickness of perifollicular fibrosis.

The result of this study is that any treatment of AA is recommended to start earlier than 30 months from first signs of AA. This should prevent irreversible collagen changes associated with “fibrotic incapsulation” of most anagen HF in involved areas, which usually leads to loss of normal blood supply, innervation, and subsequent miniaturization and prevention of hair from normal cycling.


This is why it is vital for all of us to do everything we can to hang on to as much hair as possible until these treatments come out!

P.S. Artista thx for all your support brother. I wouldn't be doing so much research if it wasn't for you and everyone elses support!

Cheers

jgold
12-29-2012, 05:13 PM
I agree but propecia is just too sketchy. I get sides from it that just aren't worth even touching it again. I swear the sides must effect at least 30% of the people who take it. At least.

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 05:17 PM
uhhh dude tell me about it!

Something just doesn't feel right when I take it! I don't know how to explain it...I only take 0.25mg every 4 days!

yeahyeahyeah
12-29-2012, 05:37 PM
uhhh dude tell me about it!

Something just doesn't feel right when I take it! I don't know how to explain it...I only take 0.25mg every 4 days!

And you are maintaining?

Conpecia
12-29-2012, 05:38 PM
uhhh dude tell me about it!

Something just doesn't feel right when I take it! I don't know how to explain it...I only take 0.25mg every 4 days!

Does that have any effect? I have been taking .25 every three days and I've been told it won't help but my shedding did stop. Unfortunately even at tiny doses spread out there are still ridiculous sides.

I'm going to try to counter the gyno side with Myomin.

Desmond84
12-29-2012, 05:48 PM
Yeah, it's definitely working! I'm approaching the 5th month now!

My hair shedding has returned to 2-3 years ago (a hair here or there) and my temples look a lot better!

The problem is when I drink coffee/alcohol, I get a bit of pain down there and my libido isn't where it was pre-fin. My erections are also a bit less full :(

jman91
12-29-2012, 07:31 PM
bump 10 charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

HARIRI
12-29-2012, 10:27 PM
Desmond84. I agree with you. Before my 1st bad hair transplant. I restored all of my hairline and crown as I was NW2 by just using Propecia and Rogaine, but i developed in the 6th month weak erections and by the 9th month a partial ED although I reduced my dose to every other day. I was scared to hell and my partner felt so worried while I was so embarrassed. I had massive libido prior to that so when I stopped it, I had to wait one to two months for the sides to go. Right now Im just sticking with Rogaine and HairOmegaDHT which is Saw Palmetto plus other natural DHT blockers. God, how I wish Aderans and Histogen save our precious hair soon.

hellouser
12-29-2012, 11:44 PM
Desmond84. I agree with you. Before my 1st bad hair transplant. I restored all of my hairline and crown as I was NW2 by just using Propecia and Rogaine, but i developed in the 6th month weak erections and by the 9th month a partial ED although I reduced my dose to every other day. I was scared to hell and my partner felt so worried while I was so embarrassed. I had massive libido prior to that so when I stopped it, I had to wait one to two months for the sides to go. Right now Im just sticking with Rogaine and HairOmegaDHT which is Saw Palmetto plus other natural DHT blockers. God, how I wish Aderans and Histogen save our precious hair soon.

You should get on RU58841 if Finasteride was working well for you.

jgold
12-30-2012, 12:36 AM
i have no idea where i would buy that and i swear that stuff is sketchy too. god damn why cant they just come up with something legitimate.

HARIRI
12-30-2012, 02:30 AM
You should get on RU58841 if Finasteride was working well for you.

Thanks for the advice but what the hell is RU58841? I never heard of it before!

But here I found it available for international shipping, I will give it a try along with Rogaine, which strength do you advice me to take if used with Rogaine? There is 1%, 2% and 5%!!! ...

http://www.mpbtreatments.com/#/shop/4563156995

yeahyeahyeah
12-30-2012, 04:17 AM
Yeah, it's definitely working! I'm approaching the 5th month now!

My hair shedding has returned to 2-3 years ago (a hair here or there) and my temples look a lot better!

The problem is when I drink coffee/alcohol, I get a bit of pain down there and my libido isn't where it was pre-fin. My erections are also a bit less full :(

How did you work out the dosages?

Trial and error?

youngsufferer
12-30-2012, 04:24 AM
Hey guys,

Here's a very critical study I found that directly relates to how effective future treatments will be for us who have already started going through MPB:

Irreversibility of hair follicle changes after 30 months of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Konstantinova N, Korotkii N.G, Sharova N, Barhunova E, Gaevski D. Nioxin Research Inc, Atlanta, USA Moscow Medical University 2001

We studied horizontal and vertical biopsy from 15 caucasian 24-41 year old males diagnosed with bitemporal recession Androgenetic Alopecia (AA) for 1.5 –18 years (average 7.4 years). All 15 biopsies were stained with H&E, Van Gieson and with other collagen specific stainings.

1. Eleven pts with AA longer than 3 years had perifollicular fibrosis - collagen fibers were compact and formed a small scar-like formation around each anagen hair follicle(HF). Two patients - 33 year old with 18 month AA and 23 year old with 20 month AA did not have these hair follicle changes. Two 26-year-old patients with 30 and 36 month AA respectively were found to have some not so severe collagen fiber changes.

2. Infundibulum of HF dilatated 124-192 mm and most of them covered with keratinazed plug lacking normal hair shaft growth.

3. Decreased number of hair follicles 1.75-2,45 per sq. mm from 3.5-5 per sq. mm in control group.

4. None of anagen HF was situated in subcutaneous fat. We showed a correlation between length of the AA and severity/ thickness of perifollicular fibrosis.

The result of this study is that any treatment of AA is recommended to start earlier than 30 months from first signs of AA. This should prevent irreversible collagen changes associated with “fibrotic incapsulation” of most anagen HF in involved areas, which usually leads to loss of normal blood supply, innervation, and subsequent miniaturization and prevention of hair from normal cycling.


This is why it is vital for all of us to do everything we can to hang on to as much hair as possible until these treatments come out!

P.S. Artista thx for all your support brother. I wouldn't be doing so much research if it wasn't for you and everyone elses support!

Cheers


If anything this should settle that there will never be a "cure"



When stemcells become a common thing to use in medicine we'll have a treatment, until then buy a piece or get a transplant. I've seen too many cases of guys my age(21) with hypogonadism because of fin. Your endocrine system is fragile and doesn't need to be messed with. Focus on improving your life because it's going to be a long bald road fellas.

StinkySmurf
12-30-2012, 08:02 AM
With regards to genetic markers, one of the guys on our forum did some amazing investigative work and found out that they employed a geneticist to come up with specific genetic markers for their trial back in April 2011.

It's great news since it means they've been working on this genetic test for a while and Phase 3 should start sometimes in 2013 :)

-- Fingers crossed of course

Hey Desmond, Can you provide a link to this info?

I can't find it.

Thanks!

yeahyeahyeah
12-30-2012, 09:01 AM
If anything this should settle that there will never be a "cure"



When stemcells become a common thing to use in medicine we'll have a treatment, until then buy a piece or get a transplant. I've seen too many cases of guys my age(21) with hypogonadism because of fin. Your endocrine system is fragile and doesn't need to be messed with. Focus on improving your life because it's going to be a long bald road fellas.

You are being too pessimistic considering that both histogen and Aderians are conducting their clinical trials on NW3+s.

StinkySmurf
12-30-2012, 09:05 AM
Hey Desmond, Can you provide a link to this info?

I can't find it.

Thanks!

Nevermind, I found the patent :D

http://www.aderansresearch.com/pdfs/US_Patent_7985537.pdf

youngsufferer
12-30-2012, 01:19 PM
You are being too pessimistic considering that both histogen and Aderians are conducting their clinical trials on NW3+s.

And let me tell you how impressive histogens pictures are haha. Histogen is trash, they're very open with their progress and have no impressive pictures at all. I really hope aderans has solved the puzzle, it would make sense that they're keeping quiet until FDA approved. I don't see that happening when we have scar tissue from years of inflammation mutilating the hair follicle. Regardless or not if the follicles or not die, that last study Desmond posted shows that they're too damaged to he functional even if we find a topical or injectable cure. This also explains why fin works so well for people who caught their hair loss early, and the regrowth they experience. Quit hearing what you want to hear. Go learn an instrument, get in the weight room, read some books and improve your life. It's going to be a while.

clarence
12-30-2012, 01:41 PM
And let me tell you how impressive histogens pictures are haha. Histogen is trash

That is the reality of an NW5+.

But many people who are in the beginning stages of their hair loss and make some light effort to maintain what they have for 3 years, will wait for the full results over taking a hair transplant, if the Histogen works only half as well as their numbers tell you. We'll see soon enough, whether or not any pictures of theirs can compete with the numbers.

jgold
12-30-2012, 05:13 PM
I agree with youngsufferer. I have wasted soooooo much god damn time / energy / suffering on this shit. The reality is that its basically a lost cause for a while and as far as a real solid cure goes, thats a whilllle away were not very close at this point. It sucks more than anything, but it is the reality.

hellouser
12-30-2012, 05:21 PM
I agree with youngsufferer. I have wasted soooooo much god damn time / energy / suffering on this shit. The reality is that its basically a lost cause for a while and as far as a real solid cure goes, thats a whilllle away were not very close at this point. It sucks more than anything, but it is the reality.

We are close, in fact we're already there. Just look into Dr. Roland Lausters work from Berlin. Whats holding us back is the whole legal crap.

ovoxo
12-30-2012, 05:28 PM
It is often assumed that hair that is lost in pattern balding somehow “dies” after a certain period of time, and is therefore gone for good, rendered incapable of re-generation. This assumption is also erroneously reinforced by certain doctors, and other hair specialists. The following case study published in a reputable peer reviewed journal, along with numerous anecdotal accounts we have received over the last 10 years convincingly refute this assumption. This particular study gives an account of a 73 year old man who had been completely bald since 28 re-growing a full head of hair at age 73 ( 45 years of slick baldness) after 6 years on oral Spironolactone, effectively shattering the assumption of “dead” hair follicles.


Acta Derm Venereol. 1990;70(4):342-3.

Reversal of andro-genetic alopecia in a male. A spironolactone effect?

Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.

Source

Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.


Abstract

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.



My opinion is nobody really knows, these treatments might work, might not work. Time will tell and we can discuss all we want, but it won't change the outcome.

rdawg
12-30-2012, 06:05 PM
You could also argue that something like HSC could bring these follicles back to life, essentially 'repairing' them.

Not to mention a future theoretical stem cell product down the line.

I dont think there is a limit to what hair loss products could do at any age, I think it's just a matter of the science and technology growing enough to do so. And I'd say we're getting closer to that point.

rdawg
12-30-2012, 06:08 PM
Edit: double post

youngsufferer
12-30-2012, 08:06 PM
It is often assumed that hair that is lost in pattern balding somehow “dies” after a certain period of time, and is therefore gone for good, rendered incapable of re-generation. This assumption is also erroneously reinforced by certain doctors, and other hair specialists. The following case study published in a reputable peer reviewed journal, along with numerous anecdotal accounts we have received over the last 10 years convincingly refute this assumption. This particular study gives an account of a 73 year old man who had been completely bald since 28 re-growing a full head of hair at age 73 ( 45 years of slick baldness) after 6 years on oral Spironolactone, effectively shattering the assumption of “dead” hair follicles.


Acta Derm Venereol. 1990;70(4):342-3.

Reversal of andro-genetic alopecia in a male. A spironolactone effect?

Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.

Source

Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.


Abstract

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.



My opinion is nobody really knows, these treatments might work, might not work. Time will tell and we can discuss all we want, but it won't change the outcome.

I stand corrected.

Pate
12-31-2012, 01:32 AM
It is often assumed that hair that is lost in pattern balding somehow “dies” after a certain period of time, and is therefore gone for good, rendered incapable of re-generation. This assumption is also erroneously reinforced by certain doctors, and other hair specialists. The following case study published in a reputable peer reviewed journal, along with numerous anecdotal accounts we have received over the last 10 years convincingly refute this assumption. This particular study gives an account of a 73 year old man who had been completely bald since 28 re-growing a full head of hair at age 73 ( 45 years of slick baldness) after 6 years on oral Spironolactone, effectively shattering the assumption of “dead” hair follicles.


Acta Derm Venereol. 1990;70(4):342-3.

Reversal of andro-genetic alopecia in a male. A spironolactone effect?

Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.

Source

Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.


Abstract

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.



My opinion is nobody really knows, these treatments might work, might not work. Time will tell and we can discuss all we want, but it won't change the outcome.

This and Des's posts are fascinating. They're not actually contradictory - Des's abstract shows that fibrosis is the reason why human MPB doesn't reverse like macaque MPB does, and shows why treatments won't regrow lost hair except sometimes in the very early stages.

Ovoxo's post suggests that in at least some cases, that fibrosis may not be permanent. It just takes many years of near-total androgen suppression to do it.

Since even castrated men don't generally regrow all their hair it presumably only takes minor levels of androgens to stop the regrowth.

The message to take away at this stage is, once again, do whatever you can to hang on to your hair. Even if the fibrosis can be reversed, you don't want to be waiting for six years of spiro to help you out.

jgold
12-31-2012, 02:58 AM
**** mpb honestly. god damn

Kiwi
12-31-2012, 05:24 PM
This and Des's posts are fascinating. They're not actually contradictory - Des's abstract shows that fibrosis is the reason why human MPB doesn't reverse like macaque MPB does, and shows why treatments won't regrow lost hair except sometimes in the very early stages.

Ovoxo's post suggests that in at least some cases, that fibrosis may not be permanent. It just takes many years of near-total androgen suppression to do it.

Since even castrated men don't generally regrow all their hair it presumably only takes minor levels of androgens to stop the regrowth.

The message to take away at this stage is, once again, do whatever you can to hang on to your hair. Even if the fibrosis can be reversed, you don't want to be waiting for six years of spiro to help you out.

LOL thats what I was just thinking. I'm not going to take Spiro for 6 years on the off chance that it might work.

What is the best way to halt further hair loss?

Pate
12-31-2012, 05:43 PM
LOL thats what I was just thinking. I'm not going to take Spiro for 6 years on the off chance that it might work.

What is the best way to halt further hair loss?

Well, theoretically, castration would be the best way to halt further hair loss. Rip your balls off. Then take an antiandrogen to suppress the last 5% or so of androgens still being produced by your adrenals.

But when we're talking a realistic route here, the best way to halt further loss would be the highest level of androgen suppression you can stand.

For most of us 6 years of oral spiro just ain't an option, nor are those topical androgen receptor antagonists that have significant systemic absorption. So what it would probably be would be a combination of finasteride and topical RU. Until CB comes along and then it would be fin plus CB. Some might prefer dut to fin.

In the future, Aderans and Replicel could actually halt further hair loss. I've been pretty dismissive of the 'immunisation' idea in the past but I'm reconsidering in light of the paper above on fibrosis. Replicel might fail to regrow much hair because it just can't reverse the scarring in the follicles - but if the follicles are still relatively healthy, and Replicel's DHT-resistant cells migrate in there and help it resist attack by DHT, then it's quite possible that follicle would avoid both androgen attack and fibrosis.

But that's all still years away. For now, fin plus RU. I know a lot of guys get sides even from those drugs, but it's probably the best compromise between sides and effectiveness we have available right now.

Kiwi
12-31-2012, 07:03 PM
Well, theoretically, castration would be the best way to halt further hair loss. Rip your balls off. Then take an antiandrogen to suppress the last 5% or so of androgens still being produced by your adrenals.

But when we're talking a realistic route here, the best way to halt further loss would be the highest level of androgen suppression you can stand.

For most of us 6 years of oral spiro just ain't an option, nor are those topical androgen receptor antagonists that have significant systemic absorption. So what it would probably be would be a combination of finasteride and topical RU. Until CB comes along and then it would be fin plus CB. Some might prefer dut to fin.

In the future, Aderans and Replicel could actually halt further hair loss. I've been pretty dismissive of the 'immunisation' idea in the past but I'm reconsidering in light of the paper above on fibrosis. Replicel might fail to regrow much hair because it just can't reverse the scarring in the follicles - but if the follicles are still relatively healthy, and Replicel's DHT-resistant cells migrate in there and help it resist attack by DHT, then it's quite possible that follicle would avoid both androgen attack and fibrosis.

But that's all still years away. For now, fin plus RU. I know a lot of guys get sides even from those drugs, but it's probably the best compromise between sides and effectiveness we have available right now.

I horrible side effects from fin.

I guess that means topical RU is my best bet? I know nothing about it :P

Pate
12-31-2012, 07:21 PM
I horrible side effects from fin.

I guess that means topical RU is my best bet? I know nothing about it :P

I guess you can only try it. Get a 1% bottle from mpbtreatments or something and just give it a go. If you get sides, stop using it. That's what I'm doing, but I'm using the 5% because I'm pretty much okay on fin.

But some guys who report sides from fin also report them from RU. I think most guys would say though that RU sides are less than fin sides. I am still waiting for my RU so I can't comment yet.

I knew nothing about RU until about six weeks ago either... but there is some good info out there about it, you just have to look for it. The biggest problem in the past has been that it's unstable and breaks down quickly, which meant a lot of guys thought it had stopped working.

Now you either freeze the powder to keep it stable or put it in the newly patented KB solution which appears to keep it stable for longer at room temperature. Mpbtreatments offers a pre-mixed RU in KB solution. It's pricey but still cheaper than Propecia. The other option is buying it from the Chinese sites. RU from those sites has been tested by guys on other forums and found to be pure, and it's a lot cheaper.

If you're interested go have a look at the RU threads in the Hair Loss Treatments forum.

If you don't want to use RU and can't use fin there aren't a lot of options for anti-androgens. Topical spiro cream, saw palmetto pills or topicals like Spectral DNC-L. None of which have been shown to be really effective, but it's hard to know. After all, how to you really tell if something's slowing down your hair loss? It could just be natural progression.

And before the mods gently remind us to get back on topic again... This is all so that we can maintain our hair for a few more years when ADERANS will ride to the rescue like a hirsuite knight in shining armour!

Kiwi
12-31-2012, 07:59 PM
You're looking at this:
http://www.mpbtreatments.com/#/shop/4563157000/RU-4-Month-Combination-Set/3567437

Desmond84
01-01-2013, 02:02 AM
Wow! It's so refreshing to see everyone's discussing Aderans and other upcoming treatments in such scientific manner rather than a cat fight over which one's gonna fail!

I have a lot of faith in Histogen & Aderans...I think if we keep things together for 3 more years we will be OK! ;)

Happy new year everyone and plz keep this thread as scientific as u can..it's such a great read when people are positive and argue in a logical manner! I actually have been looking forward to logging in and reading everyone's comments :)

neversaynever
01-01-2013, 12:34 PM
- I think histogen treatment combined with aderans would be a saviour for low to mid norwoods.

- patents, regulations and other legal rubbish has crippled progress in MPB treatments for years. I'm suprised more work hasn't been done outside of europe and the states.

- RU works, and no sides for me at high doses even

- PGD2 blockers also look promising. Keeping a close eye on MPBtreatments PGD2 blocker. They will only release it once they find a stable solution that dissolves the compound properly. They might be pricey, but I think it's all worth it. This could replace fin and RU and anything else, with little to no sides (i imagine no sides at sensible doses).

Hang onto your hair people, dont wait around.

rdawg
01-01-2013, 02:11 PM
- I think histogen treatment combined with aderans would be a saviour for low to mid norwoods.

- patents, regulations and other legal rubbish has crippled progress in MPB treatments for years. I'm suprised more work hasn't been done outside of europe and the states.

- RU works, and no sides for me at high doses even

- PGD2 blockers also look promising. Keeping a close eye on MPBtreatments PGD2 blocker. They will only release it once they find a stable solution that dissolves the compound properly. They might be pricey, but I think it's all worth it. This could replace fin and RU and anything else, with little to no sides (i imagine no sides at sensible doses).

Hang onto your hair people, dont wait around.

Dont forget about BIM, their results will be out soon! they'll actually be on the market first I'd say.(2014-early 2015).

Alot of people want to be pessimistic because they've been dissapointed so far and think every single company will fail(not sure why) but science is always growing, just look how much technology has grown the past few years.

with such a huge market, you bet companies will work like crazy to get a product that works out there and after enough trial and error, they will find one very soon.

Kiwi
01-01-2013, 03:20 PM
- I think histogen treatment combined with aderans would be a saviour for low to mid norwoods.

1) patents, regulations and other legal rubbish has crippled progress in MPB treatments for years. I'm suprised more work hasn't been done outside of europe and the states.

2) RU works, and no sides for me at high doses even



1) screw the USA patent and copyright law - its like the dark ages thanks to a small handful of OLD rich douche bags!

2) Wooo Hoooo!!! I'm so glad to hear that RU is working for you. How do you actually apply it to your head though??? Eye dropper?

Do you see regrowth or just hair loss halted?

HARIRI
01-01-2013, 11:36 PM
-

- RU works, and no sides for me at high doses even



I'm really getting excited with this RU product. Neversaynever, Can you please tell me how are you using the RU? Lets say I ordered the 1% formula from mpbtreatments.com..."www.mpbtreatments.com/#/shop/4563157000/RU58841-Solution/1716974"

Q1) Will I apply 1ml in the evening once a day?

Q2) How will I use it along with my Rogaine Minoxidil 5%?

Q3) How many minutes should I wait between them?

Q4) Also how much percentage of RU are you using? 1% or 2% or 5%?

Desmond84
01-03-2013, 04:30 PM
Hey guys,

I just found this posted by someone working in the pharmaceutical industry regarding Aderans keeping all the cards close to their chest:

"As someone who has worked in the drug development industry, I try to keep your readers updated with accurate info on how this process works. One of your readers asked whether “Aderans…would send out an update on their Phase 2 trial data……..and whether there are rules requiring such info to be confidential.”

There are no rules to keep trial data confidential. The sole reason why data from an ongoing Phase 2 trial is not released is because it is not available. That is, no data is available to a sponsoring company until a drug study is complete (or in rare cases, when an “interim analysis” is done). When a company begins a trial the data (and identity of the participating patients) is kept secret from the company during the conduct of the trial. This is to ensure that no data is manipulated; extraordinary safeguards are put in place. Intentional violation of such safeguards with hiding of the act is a form of scientific fraud and would result in failure of drug approval and public sanction of the company by regulatory (and other)
authorities.

The FDA (and regulatory agencies, in general) have no jurisdiction of when a company reports data to the public (and do not care). However, public reporting of inaccurate data can result in sanctions from both regulatory agencies and, if the company is public, the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). The latter relates to how public release of trial data typically affects a public stock (good data raises the stock price, bad data lowers it).

Nearly all public companies release Phase 2 clinical trial data (regardless of positive or negative) on trial completion for 2 reasons: (a) to communicate results to the scientific community, and (b) to communicate the results to shareholders. Withholding such data from shareholders can be perceived as having “inside information” of results that are considered “material” (i.e. important for shareholders to make decisions on purchase or sale of the stock). In cases where a company is private (rare when a company is at the stage of Phase 2), trial data is usually released to encourage future investors (positive data) or explain why a program is not moving forward (negative data).

Bottom line: Aderans can not send out a trial update because the data will not be known until study completion and analysis (the FDA has nothing to do with this). There are no rules to keep trial data confidential when a study is completed and, in fact, there are many reasons why public companies are required by the SEC to divulge these results. In fact, the SEC has brought legal action against some companies that they feel have not released “material” clinical trial data in a prompt fashion."

So it seems April-May is when they will release all of their final data and provide us with much more accurate estimates of product release!

Keep on fighting the good fight ;)

Thinning87
01-03-2013, 06:49 PM
Thanks for the contribution Desmond. I am new here but have been following this thread for a long time now.

I signed up to basically ask for advice on a short term regimen until one of the new technologies comes out in 2-5 years.

I just turned 25 and am thinning mildly. I was on Propecia and Rogaine and anti-SD shampoo for 5 months and that was working well but I quit because of the mild numbness side effects from Propecia, and the fact that I simply hated Rogaine.

I was hoping to get some advice as to how to hold on to my thinning hair for some time in my thread. I still look good and like I don't have MPB but would like to slow it down so any new treatments down the road can have a higher chance of success. Otherwise it will be a hair transplant, or a very short buzz (what the hell).

If anyone here who has followed the new technologies would like to give me some advice, here is the path to my thread:

"Men's hair loss" ----> "Introduce yourself and share your story" ----> "Asking for Advice for Short Term Strategy"

Thanks so much!

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 03:43 PM
Could this be good news for us???

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/lichtensteins-steel-partners-ousts-board-of-japans-aderans/

Under NEW management, they might be forced to release their product after so many years!!!!

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 03:46 PM
Thanks for the contribution Desmond. I am new here but have been following this thread for a long time now.

I signed up to basically ask for advice on a short term regimen until one of the new technologies comes out in 2-5 years.

I just turned 25 and am thinning mildly. I was on Propecia and Rogaine and anti-SD shampoo for 5 months and that was working well but I quit because of the mild numbness side effects from Propecia, and the fact that I simply hated Rogaine.

I was hoping to get some advice as to how to hold on to my thinning hair for some time in my thread. I still look good and like I don't have MPB but would like to slow it down so any new treatments down the road can have a higher chance of success. Otherwise it will be a hair transplant, or a very short buzz (what the hell).

If anyone here who has followed the new technologies would like to give me some advice, here is the path to my thread:

"Men's hair loss" ----> "Introduce yourself and share your story" ----> "Asking for Advice for Short Term Strategy"

Thanks so much!

Thinning just read it brother...

if its early stages I reckon just take 0.25mg of Finasteride ONCE A WEEK and see how you tolerate it. If you feel OK after 3 months then it's all good :) Keep taking it ONCE A WEEK until we get our hands on one of these cutting edge treatments.

Since its early days for you... taking it ONCE A WEEK will really slow things down for you ;)

Hope that's helpful

youngsufferer
01-16-2013, 03:51 PM
Desmond that article is from 2008, whatever difference it made is long gone now.

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 03:52 PM
Oh no! I just realised that article is dated in 2008!!!

LOL sorry guys

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 03:53 PM
Desmond that article is from 2008, whatever difference it made is long gone now.

LOL I just realised....

GOD DAMMIT :)

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:02 PM
I saw jarjarbinx post this on another forum yesterday. I agree with him quite a fair bit! Imagine if Phase 3 ended up being 6 months, we'd definitely have ji gami availablle by Dec 2014!

"Aderans - could also be a major breakthrough. At minimum Aderans has a solid treatment better than anything on the market. I think they have a shot at being comparable to Histogen. They were producing good results and they were hoping to tweak their results in phase 2 studies. They are still working out the details and they have multiple phase 2 trials ongoing. They are almost done with phase 2 trials. We will be hearing news from them this February, and then it's onto phase 3 and then to market. I think that the results that they have already shown the world from the previous study ascertain that they will be bringing their treatment to market because their already publicized treatment results are already better than anything on the market and their treatment could be improved upon. In other words I have a hunch that their next round of results will be better than the last round of resuls. I also think that that one could use their treatment to get back a lot of hair and then add minoxidil or bimatoprost and improve on those results. Also, unless Follica shows back up in the picture Aderans will probably be the first of the new revolutionary treatments to hit the market - sometime in 2014. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Aderans could turn it's last study (Phase 3) that should start early 2013 into a 6-month study. If they do that then they could release their treatment in late 2013 somewhere in the world. Most likely their last study will be 12 months but it could be just 6 months since their early scientific work involved lengthy studies. Their phase 1 studies were almost 3 years long. The FDA can fast track Aderans treatment since Aderans has gathered a lot of data, they have a revolutionary treatment, their treatment will work on people who presently can't be treated, and people are clamoring for a treatment."

yeahyeahyeah
01-16-2013, 04:06 PM
Thinning just read it brother...

if its early stages I reckon just take 0.25mg of Finasteride ONCE A WEEK and see how you tolerate it. If you feel OK after 3 months then it's all good :) Keep taking it ONCE A WEEK until we get our hands on one of these cutting edge treatments.

Since its early days for you... taking it ONCE A WEEK will really slow things down for you ;)

Hope that's helpful

Do you know anyone aside from you that is doing this with good results?

StinkySmurf
01-16-2013, 04:09 PM
Could this be good news for us???

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/lichtensteins-steel-partners-ousts-board-of-japans-aderans/

Under NEW management, they might be forced to release their product after so many years!!!!

Nice find Desmond! No matter if it was from 2008, it was good info.

Here is the same story playing out exactly one year later in 2009, and this time they were successful in putting Joshua Schechter on the board. Joshua is now chairman of Aderans America. I guess he will be overall the person in charge of the new merged Bosley and Hair Club for Men businesses after Aderans closes the Hair Club deal next month.

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:15 PM
Do you know anyone aside from you that is doing this with good results?

YEAHYEAHYEAH I'll be honest with you...there are 2 groups of fin users:

1) Can take and tolerate any dose of fin

2) Very sensitive to fin

Taking 1mg daily would give you 20% regrowth and halt all hairloss

Taking 0.25mg EVERY 4-7 days would probably give you 5-10% regrowth and halt/slow down your hairloss.

No one here is planning on taking fin forever! We just want to slow it down till one of these treatments come out in the next 2-3 years.

So, taking low doses would most definitely be a far better option than taking nothing at all.

That's the only reason why I'm taking it anyways. Otherwise changing your hormone profile is just ridiculous.

AND I'm the walking proof that it works! All I can do is share my experiences brother so someone else might benefit...

CHeers

yeahyeahyeah
01-16-2013, 04:20 PM
YEAHYEAHYEAH I'll be honest with you...there are 2 groups of fin users:

1) Can take and tolerate any dose of fin

2) Very sensitive to fin

Taking 1mg daily would give you 20% regrowth and halt all hairloss

Taking 0.25mg EVERY 4-7 days would probably give you 5-10% regrowth and halt/slow down your hairloss.

No one here is planning on taking fin forever! We just want to slow it down till one of these treatments come out in the next 2-3 years.

So, taking low doses would most definitely be a far better option than taking nothing at all.

That's the only reason why I'm taking it anyways. Otherwise changing your hormone profile is just ridiculous.

AND I'm the walking proof that it works! All I can do is share my experiences brother so someone else might benefit...

CHeers

But doesn't fin have a short half life?

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:25 PM
No! we discussed this on another thread...Here's a snapshot of what's important:

"Finasteride has a flat dose response curve meaning taking 0.05mg, 0.2mg and 1mg daily would have exactly the same impact on your scalp DHT profile (which you guys have already realised)

Now, what that means is if you're going to experience sides on 1 mg, you're most likely going to experience sides on 0.05mg. Now, that being said, it may take a bit longer to surface, since its taking a longer period of time to reach a steady state (stabilise in your body). But if its going to happen, it will eventually happen!

So if you're just scared of getting sides and think that taking such a miniscule dose is going to stop that I can promise you that is not the case.

So, my honest opinion is that if you're desperate to try it but scared of sides, break a 1mg tablet into 4 pieces using a tablet cutter and take it 3 times a week (Mon, Wed, Fri). This should give you a good picture of how your body is going to react to this drug. AND BELIEVE ME IT"S STILL VERY EFFECTIVE

Dissolving it in ethanol and all that is fine, but why do it when there's no difference in your body's response. On top of that you're ingesting industrial grade alcohol for no reason at all!

With regards to taking it every other day or 3 times per week, it's safe to do so because of Finasteride's "pharmacological half-life". Now, please note that is different to the plasma half-life which is a measure of a drug's elimination from the body. (50% of finasteride is generally eliminated from your body within 2 hours)

The biological half-life on the other hand, is the point where its pharmacological effect (DHT reduction) is reduced by half. Now, for finasteride that is about 3-7 days, which allows you to take it 2-3 times a week rather than daily.

The reason why it has such a long biological half-life is because it is an IRREVERSIBLE inhibitor of 5-alpha-reductase, meaning that any alpha-reductase it binds to is pretty much deactivated and will no longer serve any purpose. Generally your body takes approximately 3-7 days to reproduce the same amount of 5-alpha-reductase and bring your DHT levels back up to normal. So, you can definitely take advantage of that and take it less often!"

If you want to read the whole discussion, read from Page 7-9. It covers everything ;)

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10013&page=7

rdawg
01-16-2013, 04:30 PM
I saw jarjarbinx post this on another forum yesterday. I agree with him quite a fair bit! Imagine if Phase 3 ended up being 6 months, we'd definitely have ji gami availablle by Dec 2014!

"Aderans - could also be a major breakthrough. At minimum Aderans has a solid treatment better than anything on the market. I think they have a shot at being comparable to Histogen. They were producing good results and they were hoping to tweak their results in phase 2 studies. They are still working out the details and they have multiple phase 2 trials ongoing. They are almost done with phase 2 trials. We will be hearing news from them this February, and then it's onto phase 3 and then to market. I think that the results that they have already shown the world from the previous study ascertain that they will be bringing their treatment to market because their already publicized treatment results are already better than anything on the market and their treatment could be improved upon. In other words I have a hunch that their next round of results will be better than the last round of resuls. I also think that that one could use their treatment to get back a lot of hair and then add minoxidil or bimatoprost and improve on those results. Also, unless Follica shows back up in the picture Aderans will probably be the first of the new revolutionary treatments to hit the market - sometime in 2014. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Aderans could turn it's last study (Phase 3) that should start early 2013 into a 6-month study. If they do that then they could release their treatment in late 2013 somewhere in the world. Most likely their last study will be 12 months but it could be just 6 months since their early scientific work involved lengthy studies. Their phase 1 studies were almost 3 years long. The FDA can fast track Aderans treatment since Aderans has gathered a lot of data, they have a revolutionary treatment, their treatment will work on people who presently can't be treated, and people are clamoring for a treatment."

Wow so you're essentially telling me this could be released THIS YEAR if they fast track it?

obviously that would be europe I suppose, then by summer 2014 in NA.

wow we are close if this is true, Can't wait til we get another product to use! Just on Fin to transition me over.

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:33 PM
Wow so you're essentially telling me this could be released THIS YEAR if they fast track it?

obviously that would be europe I suppose, then by summer 2014 in NA.

wow we are close if this is true, Can't wait til we get another product to use! Just on Fin to transition me over.

2013 is probably not realistic!

But I'd definitely think if Phase 3 is:

- 6 months --> we should have it by Dec 2014

- 12 months --> by June 2015

All Phase 2 studies will be completed in April 2013!

Uh man... the day I find out they're initiating Phase 3 I will cry :)

rdawg
01-16-2013, 04:36 PM
2013 is probably not realistic!

But I'd definitely think if Phase 3 is:

- 6 months --> we should have it by Dec 2014

- 12 months --> by June 2015

All Phase 2 studies will be completed in April 2013!

Uh man... the day I find out they're initiating Phase 3 I will cry :)

haha for sure, as in this case, it essentially guarentees a new product on the market within 2 years!

Any info you have on Bim's results? I swear they are very close to phase III as well.

I'd expect 2-3 companies to give us updates around Feb/march.

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:36 PM
Also, like Jarjarbinx says, Histogen's showing very strong results and is due to be released in 2015 so Aderans is feeling the heat!

They'll be pushing to get their product on the market first big time!

Here's Jarjarbinx's comments:

"Aderans is in phase 2 right now and their phase 2 will be finished in February this year. We're talking about one month here. In their first study they got a 60% success rate and I'm sure they tweaked their treatment and so they will have a better success rate. I thought their pics looked good given the difficulty of reversing hair loss. At any rate, given that they have at least a 60% success rate that means they have a better mouse trap than what is already available. They don't want to sit on it forever. They know Histogen is coming up right behind them. I'm very confident that Aderans will go straight from phase 2 to phase 3 and their phase 3 will likely be one year long, but could be just 6 months long. We will find out in a month or two how long their phase 3 will be. I read that they are already screening for phase 3 patients/subjects. They are almost in phase 3 man. I don't care what people say about 10 years. Their phase 3 will start in a few months and it's not possible to drag phase 3 out for 10 years. Phase 3 will be 6 months to 1 year and that is all. Phase 3 is the last study unless they find a problem with their treatment. People likely say 10 years because they don't want to be accused of over-hyping their treatment."

I love this guy...so positive :)

Kiwi
01-16-2013, 04:38 PM
Wow so you're essentially telling me this could be released THIS YEAR if they fast track it?

obviously that would be europe I suppose, then by summer 2014 in NA.

wow we are close if this is true, Can't wait til we get another product to use! Just on Fin to transition me over.

Desmond84 -- I'm tempted to try .25mg once per week.

HOWEVER as somebody that did experience side effects I'm really ****ing scared. Are you saying that once you got your mojo back you tried 0.25mg per week and havent experienced sides?

I want to keep my mojo forever!!!

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:44 PM
haha for sure, as in this case, it essentially guarentees a new product on the market within 2 years!

Any info you have on Bim's results? I swear they are very close to phase III as well.

I'd expect 2-3 companies to give us updates around Feb/march.

I know dude :) 2013 is the year we find out if there's a light at the end of this dark tunnel!

There are so many companies releasing major updates. We're talking:

- Histogen (Feb update re: final 12 month results)

- Aderans (April update re: Final Phase 2 results and Initiation of Phase 3)

- Replicel (November update re: Final 24 month results on Phase 1/2)

- Bimatoprost (Might be launched end of this year!)

- OC (June-July: Phase 2 trials start for baldness)

It's gonna be an epic year! I think the cutting edge section of BTT is gonna be going nuts ;)

StinkySmurf
01-16-2013, 04:44 PM
Also, like Jarjarbinx says, Histogen's showing very strong results and is due to be released in 2015 so Aderans is feeling the heat!

They'll be pushing to get their product on the market first big time!

Here's Jarjarbinx's comments:

"Aderans is in phase 2 right now and their phase 2 will be finished in February this year."

I love this guy...so positive :)

Me Too!

Hey Desmond, I hate to hold you to the fire, but wasn't it your comment or clinical trial link that previously put the completion time at April. Do you really think it will be February?

rdawg
01-16-2013, 04:47 PM
Agreed this is probably the biggest year ever in hairloss! The potential to know that 2 or even 3 new products will launch by the end of 2015(2016 at the latest)!

Histogen, Aderans and even Bim excite me alot! And we may find out if all them fully work this year(although Histogen/Aderans have both already shown that IMO!)

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:48 PM
Desmond84 -- I'm tempted to try .25mg once per week.

HOWEVER as somebody that did experience side effects I'm really ****ing scared. Are you saying that once you got your mojo back you tried 0.25mg per week and havent experienced sides?

I want to keep my mojo forever!!!

Kiwi if you really wanna give it a shot and have had issues b4 try:

0.25mg EVERY 10 days for the first month, then

0.25mg EVERY 9 days for the second month, then

0.25mg EVERY 8 days for the third month, then

0.25mg EVERY 7 days for the fourth month, then

0.25mg EVERY 6 days for the fifth month.

Then just continue taking it every 6 days. This allows your body to produce some DHT between days 4-6 which should hopefully keep you mojo intact.

ATM, instead of every 4 days I'm trying every 6 days for the past 2 weeks see what happens. I'll keep you posted ;)

Desmond84
01-16-2013, 04:50 PM
Me Too!

Hey Desmond, I hate to hold you to the fire, but wasn't it your comment or clinical trial link that previously put the completion time at April. Do you really think it will be February?

Uh dude its definitely April. The comments in italic that I posted are not mine. They're jarjarbinx :) I just thought they were so positive that it deserves to be posted on BTT ;)

baldnotbeautiful
01-16-2013, 09:08 PM
not to sidetrack this tread, but I spoke to a Dr. Cooley rep and she asked me if I took fin and I told her that I took 1mg everyday. She immediately stated that was way too much and that it only needs to be taken at max 3 days a week. She stated it stays in your system for 72hrs. She recommended M/W/F for an easy schedule to keep. Dr. Cooley has an exceptional reputation so I'm sure that this is what he has found in his research and passed along to his rep. But since a low amount of fin(.25mg) suppresses almost as much as a normal dose(1mg), it seems safe to assume that taking .25mg 2-3 times a week would be the best balance to keep your hair and avoid sides. Thoughts?

BaldinLikeBaldwin
01-16-2013, 09:22 PM
Kiwi if you really wanna give it a shot and have had issues b4 try:

0.25mg EVERY 10 days for the first month, then

0.25mg EVERY 9 days for the second month, then

0.25mg EVERY 8 days for the third month, then

0.25mg EVERY 7 days for the fourth month, then

0.25mg EVERY 6 days for the fifth month.

Then just continue taking it every 6 days. This allows your body to produce some DHT between days 4-6 which should hopefully keep you mojo intact.

ATM, instead of every 4 days I'm trying every 6 days for the past 2 weeks see what happens. I'll keep you posted ;)

I dont think it's a good idea to let your hormone levels fluctuate in this way

BaldinLikeBaldwin
01-16-2013, 09:26 PM
that taking .25mg 2-3 times a week would be the best balance to keep your hair and avoid sides. Thoughts?

yes although there are no studies on lower doses and less frequent intake

I think it's a good idea to go by what your body tells you and if you feel "better" on 0.25 mg 2-3 per week I think that should get the same results hairwise

534623
01-17-2013, 03:08 AM
The comments in italic that I posted are not mine. They're jarjarbinx :) I just thought they were so positive that it deserves to be posted on BTT ;)
How about a good dosage/mix between being optimistic and also being realistic?
Just being too optimistic - the disappointment is mostly too big and can sometimes even have a destructive effect, if an individual is not prepared for any worst-case scenario.
Anyway - here is a dialoge between being rather irrational (jarjarbinx) and a good dosage/of being optimistic but also being REALISTIC (another user - not me):
************************
» I said new and better treatments will start hitting the market in months
» (bimatoprost) to 2 years. Experts said "less than 10 years" and I do
» believe that months to 2 years is "less than 10 years." So the
» experts are not contradicting what I'm saying. I'm saying within 2 years
» and they are saying within 10 years and 2 years is within 10 years.

Let's not start with self-obvious statements like "2 years are less than 10 years". The question is what usually happens around us with well-defined deadlines. You are probably aware that they are often missed or at best the products are delivered in the very end of the period. Why a vague deadline (10 years or so) for such a complex task, like safely multiplying hair and make it grow on a bare head, would not be missed?

» Experts don't want to sound overly optimistic. They're being needlessly
» over cautious.

Do not we hear the same thing for 10-15 years now, that the cure is 5 years away? And each new year the same thing all over again and still nothing? The experts are not needlessly cautious, they are realists.

» Why do you say this? The experts did NOT say that a cure will come in 10
» years; they said a cure will come WITHIN 10 years. That could mean
» tomorrow. Within 10 years means any amount of time inside of 10 years. The
» could mean months. It could mean a couple years. You don't have to take it
» all the way to the furthest possibility.

See my previous comments.

» Some of these new breakthrough treatments are going to be
» very good treatments. I can tell by their results so far.

And what is the evidence to support this opinion?

» I disagree. I think they have said that they are growing hair in all
» regions of the scalp.

If they succeeded growing new hair in completely bald skin, then the increase rate would be nearly infinite per cent. But it is not. It is a finite difference, meaning that there was already hair.

Look, I much want to believe but I don't see enough evidence.
************************

Exactly - where is the evidence?
... besides big numbers and lots of bold claims?

For example ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDPxa6dzzu8&feature=share&list=UUb6_EwKnsjEAHmX-3t920AA

Why bought this guy a hair transplant robot for his patients, when another individual of this team of a "hair stimulating complex" breakthrough claimed during a scientific meeting that their stuff is even able to grow hair in scar tissue?? :rolleyes:

So, am I pessimistic or realistic? Or am I simply just an idiot?

Desmond84
01-17-2013, 05:27 AM
Look the reality is if you're above NW3 Histogen alone will not bring back your juvenile hairline...

Neither Histogen, Aderans nor Replicel will be able to do that...

Ppl will still undergo hair transplants...

These treatments will simply save the hair you have and cause a bit of regrowth...if you want a juvenile hairline, you will end up combining these cutting edge treatments with a transplant depending on how far your hair loss has progressed.

FUE, FUT, Gho, etc will continue to exist until Dr Lauster releases his hair multiplication which will be somewhere around 2020 if we're lucky

StinkySmurf
01-17-2013, 08:24 AM
For example ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDPxa6dzzu8&feature=share&list=UUb6_EwKnsjEAHmX-3t920AA

Why bought this guy a hair transplant robot for his patients, when another individual of this team of a "hair stimulating complex" breakthrough claimed during a scientific meeting that their stuff is even able to grow hair in scar tissue?? :rolleyes:

So, am I pessimistic or realistic? Or am I simply just an idiot?

You bring up a good point, but you could be making the assumption Histogen fails and then letting your conclusion about ARTAS flow from it, but look at it the other way.

Lets assume Histogen works. What then? Well, I can already point to several ARTAS users that are making money like gang busters now so we know it makes sense for the HT doc as a business decision on it's own, but then lets say you have one of the next gen cures like Histogen or Aderans in hand and it can grow hair. Thats opens up whole new markets of hair transplant customers that are different from today's customers. They might not need as many grafts, but in any case, I wouldn't be surprised at all in the 2016 to 2021 timeframe if we see the companies with the cures moving most aggressively towards automation because these will already be the companies taking advantage of economies of scale.

And consider that this particular operation just hired a 3rd surgeon away form Bosley who sued them over it. They're not huge, but they're growing.

StinkySmurf
01-17-2013, 08:30 AM
Hey Desmond,

Do you know what Aderans has going in Europe or say Australia?

Does FDA approval give you EU / UK / Australia / Japan approval or will Aderans be starting over with a multi year trials in EMEA?

Thanks!

FearTheLoss
01-17-2013, 11:46 AM
Look the reality is if you're above NW3 Histogen alone will not bring back your juvenile hairline...

Neither Histogen, Aderans nor Replicel will be able to do that...

Ppl will still undergo hair transplants...

These treatments will simply save the hair you have and cause a bit of regrowth...if you want a juvenile hairline, you will end up combining these cutting edge treatments with a transplant depending on how far your hair loss has progressed.

FUE, FUT, Gho, etc will continue to exist until Dr Lauster releases his hair multiplication which will be somewhere around 2020 if we're lucky

not to change the subject of this thread..but what do you know about the hair multiplication? if that came out everything else would pretty much be useless right? that would be as good as a cure?

Desmond84
01-17-2013, 03:21 PM
Hey Desmond,

Do you know what Aderans has going in Europe or say Australia?

Does FDA approval give you EU / UK / Australia / Japan approval or will Aderans be starting over with a multi year trials in EMEA?

Thanks!

Well I'm pretty sure they are planning on rolling out ji gami all over the world around the same time ie EU / UK / Japan / US / Australia.

I base this on the fact that they have been filing for patents in all these regions since 2002. Here's the link for their patent protection in Australia for example:

http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applicant/aderans-research-institute-inc/patents/

With regards to the Approval process, every region has their own INDEPENDENT regulatory approval body and they're all pretty strict!

TGA (Australia)
EMEA (Europe)
PMDA (Japan)
FDA (Europe)

On average most of these organisations take 10-15 months to process an application once Phase 3 is completed!

Some regulatory bodies prefer specific types of trials,, e.g.
EMEA (Europe) prefers comparing new drug against the current gold standard (i.e. Propecia), whereas
FDA (US) prefers comparing new drug against placebo in Phase 3!

while others such as TGA tend to follow EMEA!

So what a lot of companies do is they have 3 treatment arms in their trials: one using placebo, one using Propecia and one using Ji gami for example. This will keep all regulatory bodies happy.

Some companies though opt out for FDA approval first (placebo-controlled) and hope for the best with other regulatory bodies!

So in short, just because you got your product approved by FDA doesn't mean you can role out your treatment in Europe, Japan or Australia.

South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan are a different story though. Their regulatory bodies have just recently formed and they seem to be quite laxed regarding drug approvals!

Desmond84
01-17-2013, 03:26 PM
not to change the subject of this thread..but what do you know about the hair multiplication? if that came out everything else would pretty much be useless right? that would be as good as a cure?

Yeah dude :) if Lauster brings out Hair multiplication baldness is no longer a curse but a fashion statement LOL

But that's at least 7-8 years away (even longer to be honest)...

Lauster is where Aderans was back in 2002! So, in the mean time we really should root for these other treatments to save our hair at least for the next decade :o

Breaking Bald
01-17-2013, 03:30 PM
Yeah dude :) if Lauster brings out Hair multiplication baldness is no longer a curse but a fashion statement LOL

But that's at least 7-8 years away (even longer to be honest)...

Lauster is where Aderans was back in 2002! So, in the mean time we really should root for these other treatments to save our hair at least for the next decade :o

What's your view on Dr Nigams clalims on HM?

StinkySmurf
01-17-2013, 03:45 PM
So in short, just because you got your product approved by FDA doesn't mean you can role out your treatment in Europe, Japan or Australia.

So, if I heard you right, the approval process is separate in each country, but a company may have conducted trials in such a way to apply for approval simultaneously at all of them?

Desmond, I was thinking FDA likes to sit on the data about six months after completion, not 10 to 15, but that was just my second hand opinion. I know you've written some of this before, but what exactly is the cadence in your mind for the next 2 years besides the 12 month trial part?

Does it take time to design/submit a phase 3 trial before you start?

Is it normal to spend time before getting approval on commercialization?

Thanks!

Desmond84
01-17-2013, 03:47 PM
What's your view on Dr Nigams clalims on HM?

I'll be honest with you BB, there's no way in hell I'd fly to India to undergo any operation!

He claims he has TWO things going:
1) Dr Gho's HST
2) Stem cell therapy

If I'm going to do get HST, I'd rather get it done in Amsterdam than Mumbai!

Regarding his Stem cell therapy, a lot of companies are/did conduct trials on it and failed to produce any hairs so I don't know how he does it! This is where the concept of published peer-reviewed journals comes from. Until he does that, no one should fly over there to get it done! Period.

You know, you hear time and time again how much the outcome of a hair transplant is dependent on the skills of the surgeon. So you should really be extremely cautious when it come to these clinics in third world countries!

Desmond84
01-17-2013, 04:01 PM
So, if I heard you right, the approval process is separate in each country, but a company may have conducted trials in such a way to apply for approval simultaneously at all of them?

Yep, pretty much :)


Desmond, I was thinking FDA likes to sit on the data about six months after completion, not 10 to 15, but that was just my second hand opinion. I know you've written some of this before, but what exactly is the cadence in your mind for the next 2 years besides the 12 month trial part?

Does it take time to design/submit a phase 3 trial before you start?

Is it normal to spend time before getting approval on commercialization?

Thanks!

OK, so first thing that needs to happen is Phase 3 needs to end! Then it takes approx. 2 months to gather all data and analyse everything.

Next step is submitting a New Drug Application (NDA) to the FDA. This involves filling out a lot of submission forms followed by (literally) a truck load of data in sealed boxes.

Once you submit your NDA, the FDA on average takes around 10-15 months to process your application.

The 6 month thing that you mentioned is granted to life-saving medications only (i.e. cancer) through a Priority Approval System! Unfortunately Aderans wont qualify for that :(

FDA has actually published a graph of how long it took them to process application between 1988-2008. Check it out:

(Its the second graph on the page with the heading: Median Approval Times)

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/ReportsManualsForms/Reports/UserFeeReports/PerformanceReports/PDUFA/ucm209349.htm

So in short, from the time you complete your Phase 3, it will take another 12 months to get your product on the market!

CAlex
01-18-2013, 03:41 AM
Look the reality is if you're above NW3 Histogen alone will not bring back your juvenile hairline...

Neither Histogen, Aderans nor Replicel will be able to do that...

These treatments will simply save the hair you have and cause a bit of regrowth...if you want a juvenile hairline, you will end up combining these cutting edge treatments with a transplant depending on how far your hair loss has progressed.




If this ends up being the case there will still be hl forums and depressed guys everywhere because modern ht density still looks very bad. if all we are hoping is that histogen and the others do is halt your hair loss at say nw 4 so you feel safe to use all your donor on an ht you will still look very very thin.

I thought we were being told that histogen was regrowing quite a bit of hair not just halting progression. so we've given up on them being able to cause regrowth of 40 hairs/cm2 ?

IMo the only way these treatments really become game changers is for people to be able to have ht and then histogen injections and add 40plus hairs per cm/2 on top of ht density. just my opinion.

yeahyeahyeah
01-18-2013, 06:37 AM
If this ends up being the case there will still be hl forums and depressed guys everywhere because modern ht density still looks very bad. if all we are hoping is that histogen and the others do is halt your hair loss at say nw 4 so you feel safe to use all your donor on an ht you will still look very very thin.

I thought we were being told that histogen was regrowing quite a bit of hair not just halting progression. so we've given up on them being able to cause regrowth of 40 hairs/cm2 ?

IMo the only way these treatments really become game changers is for people to be able to have ht and then histogen injections and add 40plus hairs per cm/2 on top of ht density. just my opinion.

It is regrowing hair; vellius hair.

Thinning87
01-18-2013, 09:34 AM
Thinning just read it brother...

if its early stages I reckon just take 0.25mg of Finasteride ONCE A WEEK and see how you tolerate it. If you feel OK after 3 months then it's all good :) Keep taking it ONCE A WEEK until we get our hands on one of these cutting edge treatments.

Since its early days for you... taking it ONCE A WEEK will really slow things down for you ;)

Hope that's helpful

Thanks for the advice Desmond, really appreciate different point of views.

I might even be willing to go with 1 Mg per week... I mean I was taking the Propecia on a daily basis before... I will be fine with one whole pill once a week. I'd be willing to even go up to 1 pill every other day, sides were not so bad.

Thanks again

FearTheLoss
01-18-2013, 12:04 PM
It is regrowing hair; vellius hair.

Yeah but those results were at 12 and 24 weeks after one set of injections...then they did two sets and got better results..I'm guessing now in phase III they will do more and see where that goes..the vellius hairs will turn to terminal and with the addition of propecia one could hope for even much better results!

Boldy
01-18-2013, 12:09 PM
Yeah but those results were at 12 and 24 weeks after one set of injections...then they did two sets and got better results..I'm guessing now in phase III they will do more and see where that goes..the vellius hairs will turn to terminal and with the addition of propecia one could hope for even much better results!

I don't think propicia is needed with injected Dermal papillae cells, since these cells are not prone to DHT/ androgens.

I hope they speed up the trials :)!

FearTheLoss
01-18-2013, 01:31 PM
I don't think propicia is needed with injected Dermal papillae cells, since these cells are not prone to DHT/ androgens.

I hope they speed up the trials :)!

Where did you read that at? That would be amazing!!

Boldy
01-18-2013, 01:34 PM
Where did you read that at? That would be amazing!!

Read this post. this information is from cotseralis study.
this posts contains also the full study for reference.

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=99370&postcount=527


The future looks indeed very hopefull :)!

check also this topic:
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=103913&enterthread=y

Jasari
01-18-2013, 02:17 PM
If this ends up being the case there will still be hl forums and depressed guys everywhere because modern ht density still looks very bad. if all we are hoping is that histogen and the others do is halt your hair loss at say nw 4 so you feel safe to use all your donor on an ht you will still look very very thin.

I thought we were being told that histogen was regrowing quite a bit of hair not just halting progression. so we've given up on them being able to cause regrowth of 40 hairs/cm2 ?

IMo the only way these treatments really become game changers is for people to be able to have ht and then histogen injections and add 40plus hairs per cm/2 on top of ht density. just my opinion.

Virtually any norwood 4 or 5 would have a seemingly thick head of hair if they used their donor without having to worry about further loss.

Desmond84
01-18-2013, 02:33 PM
Wow, Boldy thx for all this great info! It's definitely good to see you share my opinions on DP!

I was starting to give up with ppl being so negative :)

I'm gonna be reading all these studies you linked today! We'll have a thorough discussion in the next few days ;)

Welcome to BTT brother! We need ppl like you desperately

yeahyeahyeah
01-18-2013, 02:44 PM
Yeah but those results were at 12 and 24 weeks after one set of injections...then they did two sets and got better results..I'm guessing now in phase III they will do more and see where that goes..the vellius hairs will turn to terminal and with the addition of propecia one could hope for even much better results!

phase 3?

Since when?

534623
01-18-2013, 03:28 PM
Wow, Boldy thx for all this great info!
It's definitely good to see you share my opinions on DP!

What is your opinion on DP?

FearTheLoss
01-18-2013, 04:13 PM
phase 3?

Since when?

Histogen isn't phase III yet, I'm saying when they move to phase III...

Desmond84
01-19-2013, 12:51 AM
What is your opinion on DP?

Here's a little summary ;)

DHT is by far the main culprit, hence why Finasteride is so powerful at halting hairloss. Now:

1) To date, we have only found Androgen receptors on the dermal papillae & sebaceous glands of hair follicles.


DP cells are the most important contributor to follicle growth and cycling.

Sebaceous glands don't serve any roles in terms of growth, they are more of a supportive structure.

Hence, the reason why Aderans decided to use DP cells! Here's the link:

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v9.../5612065a.html

2) Here's the most AMAZING finding: back in late 90's it was found that "Dermal papillae extracted from occipital scalp hair follicles (donor area) lack Androgen receptors!

Here's the link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...706.x/abstract

That's why I think at least in theory, DHT-resistance may be possible!

In another word, after DP transplantation, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle (this is known as a "chimeric" follicle btw):

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!

Here's a little excerpt from one of the publications I found:

"The treatment area would be miniaturized follicles that are cosmetically insignificant, and the strategy would be to rejuvenate miniaturized follicles by the insertion of hair-inductive DP cells. Because the cellular target in androgenetic alopecia is the dermal papilla, providing the follicle with new, androgen-insensitive DP cells might reactivate the follicle to form a normal (terminal) hair. "


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884703/

Furthermore:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate." They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

This is the best news we could have had. Basically this means that the effects of Aderans would be PERMANENT!

Once you have Dermal Papillae from occipital region (donor area) transplanted onto the top of your scalp, there are sufficient DP present that function regardless of scalp levels of DHT leading to continued healthy hair growth cycles; i.e. your hair will remain DHT-resistant for a substantial period of your life!

So, I believe in the future, hair transplant surgeons would simply refuse to perform fue/HST/etc until you have managed to immunise your remaining hair against DHT. Once immunised, they will then perform a high density transplant.

One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:

DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.


So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them.

Desmond84
01-19-2013, 03:51 AM
Hey Boldy,

I just finished reading this journal you posted:


Hair follicle neogenesis induced by cultured human scalp dermal papilla cells


https://www.dropbox.com/s/9doxfq9hqny8olc/8%20hair%20folucle%20newogenesis%20induced%20by%20 cultured%20human%20scalp%20dermal%20papilla%20cell s.pdf

How the hell did Intercytex go bust! They managed to grow brand new follicles on HUMAN skin grafts!!!!! They did it! They really did it and they went under!!! :eek:

I really don't understand the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!!!!! :(

I mean look at these photos!!!!

Boldy
01-19-2013, 04:09 AM
hey man,

Im glad there are some objective persons on this forum, that actually do read studies! :)

I agree with your post, since it contains only facts, but I have some add regarding the following quote:



In another word, after DP transplantation, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle (this is known as a "chimeric" follicle btw):

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!



That is true, But "injected"DP cells are also known to produce whole new hairfolicle by themselves. this means you would even be posible to create a lower hairline than you ever had, for example a negative hairline. The following picture demonstrates that:

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag72/Boldy/morphogensisdpinject_zps010c18ec.png


This approach is very hopefull guys :)

Boldy
01-19-2013, 04:21 AM
It should be a money issue man, I can not think of other reason. probably some company that had financial interest in selling snake oil, had bought them off... Dp culture is the cure, if you can do this process efficiently, than.....


Hey Boldy,

I just finished reading this journal you posted:


Hair follicle neogenesis induced by cultured human scalp dermal papilla cells


https://www.dropbox.com/s/9doxfq9hqny8olc/8%20hair%20folucle%20newogenesis%20induced%20by%20 cultured%20human%20scalp%20dermal%20papilla%20cell s.pdf

How the hell did Intercytex go bust! They managed to grow brand new follicles on HUMAN skin grafts!!!!! They did it! They really did it and they went under!!! :eek:

I really don't understand the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!!!!! :(

I mean look at these photos!!!!

Boldy
01-19-2013, 04:23 AM
double post.

Thinning87
01-19-2013, 05:09 AM
wow that is crazy I can't believe a company that close would have problems

Desmond84
01-19-2013, 05:59 AM
It should be a money issue man, I can not think of other reason. probably some company that had financial interest in selling snake oil, had bought them off... Dp culture is the cure, if you can do this process efficiently, than.....

Well thank God, Aderans bought Intercytex.

I'm dying to read their Phase 2 trial results...there's so many questions:

- Did the hairs last for the last 5 years?

- Did patients remain above baseline for at least 24 months?

- Was any adverse events reported?

.....

yeahyeahyeah
01-19-2013, 08:42 AM
Hey Boldy,

I just finished reading this journal you posted:


Hair follicle neogenesis induced by cultured human scalp dermal papilla cells


https://www.dropbox.com/s/9doxfq9hqny8olc/8%20hair%20folucle%20newogenesis%20induced%20by%20 cultured%20human%20scalp%20dermal%20papilla%20cell s.pdf

How the hell did Intercytex go bust! They managed to grow brand new follicles on HUMAN skin grafts!!!!! They did it! They really did it and they went under!!! :eek:

I really don't understand the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!!!!! :(

I mean look at these photos!!!!

I think its because they wern't consistent enough.

neversaynever
01-19-2013, 10:05 AM
I think everyones getting carried away. Intercytex was bought by Aderans, but aderans are saying they are not creating new follicles. Improvements so far has been in turning vellus hairs into terminal and we wont know more until phase 3. They are still, in my opinion, the best prospect of the 'future treatments'.

Im sure aderans are working hard on this, to investigate.

Can DP cells form the actual DP structure in vitro? Perhaps inserting the actual structure into the scalp might be the answer. We know that a partial follicle containing a DP can regenerate into a new follicle.

neversaynever
01-19-2013, 10:06 AM
Well thank God, Aderans bought Intercytex.

I'm dying to read their Phase 2 trial results...there's so many questions:

- Did the hairs last for the last 5 years?

- Did patients remain above baseline for at least 24 months?

- Was any adverse events reported?

.....

Are they planning to reveal their phase 2 results to the public? When?

neversaynever
01-19-2013, 10:10 AM
What is exciting is that the results so far are from just one injection. Looking forward to any updates.

Desmond84
01-19-2013, 04:25 PM
Very interesting theory from Roger_that @ hairsite. What are your opinions guys? It may very well be true!

Here's what Roger_that reckons:

"So far Aderans has disappointed big time. This process is taking a RIDICULOUS amount of time (over 10 years -- far longer than I expected) and now they keep lowering expectations. At first it was supposed to be "designer hair", now we're talking about bald spots being improved ever-so-slightly with a few extra hairs around the outer edges. Nothing that clearly takes a balding person and makes him look like he isn't balding. Which was exactly what they were shouting to high heaven about when they started. So it's really disappointing.

The one factor which might change this bad news, however is COMPOUNDABIILITY.

The reason for this is the following: Let's say a "bad" treatment is something that only gives 1/10 of the results you'd like.

Well, even a bad treatment can be repeated 10 times. If results are compoundable, then repeating that bad treatment 10 times might result in a "good treatment" with truly cosmetically useful results.

Remember, Aderans is NOT a drug. It's something completely different from Propecia or Rogaine. Drugs aren't really "compoundable" in the same sense. You start using them and either they work or they don't. If they work, you'll see a gradual improvement, and then you'll reach a plateau, where no further improvement is possible.

Of course, you MIGHT be able to improve the results of Propecia dramatically if you, say, took 20 pills a day. But then you'd also die. Or you could improve the results of Rogaine dramatically if you rubbed it into your scalp all day, every day. But again, if you did that, you'd die.

All drugs have a TOXICITY related to dosage. Their efficacy be compoundable in theory, but not in practice, because if you go beyond a certain point in dosing, you get extremely sick, or you die. Sure, you can go into "maintenance" mode and keep using the drug every day for the rest of your life. But that's not the same as increasing the daily dosage. If you increase the daily dosage beyond a certain point, it may actually be GREAT for your hair, but you will get very sick and you may die.

That's why nobody takes 20 Propecia tablets a day.

HT is definitely not compoundable except in the most limited sense. The doctors will tell you the more grafts you get, the more coverage you'll get, but very soon you'll hit a concrete wall. You run out of donor hair. And all the while they're doing irreparable damage to your scalp.

Aderans' treatment different in that there is no perceived toxicity to it, and there's no brick wall hit from depleting donor hair or savaging the scalp. They're injecting a culture of your own cells. So it is literally something you could have done safely, an unlimited number of times, depending of course on your funds.

I have my own theories about what contributes to Aderans' efficacy or lack thereof, in any given situation.

Injecting cells into the scalp is like a crap shoot. Unlike in the embryo where proto-follicles are held together by naturally occurring embryonic chemicals and growth factors (which are very specific to the embryo and fetus and no longer exist in the adult), the cells injected by companies like Aderans and Replicel, once they get into your scalp, are NOT naturally held together in a ball to form a proto-follicle. So as soon as they're injected, they tend to want to flow apart. Some of them may be absorbed by nearby hair follicles, which incorporate them into their structures and in this way become larger. But I believe this is rare. That's why I say it's like a crap shoot. Most of the cells injected float away and are wasted. Maybe 90% of the cells are wasted. They never contribute to any new hair growth at all. Maybe 10% are lucky enough to get incorporated into existing follicles, which might enlarge vellus follicles and in some cases turn them into terminal follicles. That is what probably accounts for the slight "new" hair growth seen in the Aderans patients. The remainder of the injected cells simply drift apart, never to be heard from again. They may be taken up by the bloodstream, eaten by macrophages, or just float away and die.

There is almost no way to address "crap shoot" problem in a single application. Aderans has tried using various tiny matrixes (matrices) or biodegradable scaffolds to hold the injected cells together long enough to form a follicle. I don't know what the specific results of that idea are, because to my knowledge they haven't been reported anywhere. The fact that such results haven't been reported, even just in passing, to me is not promising. Maybe these scaffolds aren't working nearly as well as they had conceived. This scaffold/matrix idea might be great in theory, but maybe it's too complicated and fraught with problems to work in practice. That might be why we're not hearing much about it. Sure there are various patents for it, but has the idea actually panned out?

However, forgetting about the scaffold idea, even a really disappointing treatment in which 10% of the injected cells cause some improvement, and 90% of the injected cells are wasted, should be, by its very nature, compoundable. If 10% of the injected cells are lucky enough to get incorporated into nearby follicles in each injection, causing those follicles to grow and become cosmetically visible, then of course that is a very low yield. But repeating that poor-yield procedure 10 times, would perhaps give you an impressive end result.

Unlike with drugs or HT, where you increase risk the "more" of the procedure you use, with Aderans procedure you do not increase risk on successive treatments. And each time, you have the same odds of growing hair. With the same odds each time and zero increased risk, results should be compoundable.

I'm not sure about this theory... Only time will tell. But that's what I'm relying on now for Aderans. I think I'm right on this. But if this theory doesn't pan out, Aderans may become yet another colossal failure"

pocketmerlin
01-19-2013, 10:53 PM
I know dude :) 2013 is the year we find out if there's a light at the end of this dark tunnel!

There are so many companies releasing major updates. We're talking:

- Histogen (Feb update re: final 12 month results)

- Aderans (April update re: Final Phase 2 results and Initiation of Phase 3)

- Replicel (November update re: Final 24 month results on Phase 1/2)

- Bimatoprost (Might be launched end of this year!)

- OC (June-July: Phase 2 trials start for baldness)

It's gonna be an epic year! I think the cutting edge section of BTT is gonna be going nuts ;)

Hey, I'm new here.

I was looking around the web for news about an update from Aderans and came across this thread.

I couldn't figure it out looking through the posts...on what basis is it believed that Aderans will release their Phase 2 results in April?

534623
01-19-2013, 11:20 PM
Hey, I'm new here.

I was looking around the web for news about an update from Aderans and came across this thread.

I couldn't figure it out looking through the posts...

After around 900 replies in this thread?

That's because lots of guys on meds on such forums rather prefer to talk about things like a "massive twat" and/or a "massive bell end" - or whether or not "is it okay to masterbate 6 times a day". But these are just a few reasons why you couldn't figure out the answer you are looking for.

Anyway - here is what you're looking for ...

Dr. Ken Washenik’s recent presentation at the Stem Cells Meeting on the Mesa in California (October 29-31, 2012):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

And here is a brief summary of his presentation:

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/nov/03/making-case-for-stem-cell-treatment/

Desmond84
01-20-2013, 12:09 AM
Hey, I'm new here.

I was looking around the web for news about an update from Aderans and came across this thread.

I couldn't figure it out looking through the posts...on what basis is it believed that Aderans will release their Phase 2 results in April?

Hey Merlin

Aderans has performed 11 Phase 2 trials. 9 of these have completed. 1 will finish in Feb 2013 and the last one will conclude in April 2013.

Here's the link to the last study:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01669746?term=ji+gami&rank=2

Estimated Enrollment: 40
Study Start Date: June 2012
Estimated Primary Completion Date: April 2013 (Final data collection date for primary outcome measure)

They will be presenting their final Phase 2 results at an investor's conference sometimes then. (Just like their 2010 presentation)

neversaynever
01-20-2013, 03:51 AM
So rogers theory is that injected cells are not grouping together, most of them are going to waste, it can work if its compoundable.

I wouldnt call that rogers theory, people have been saying that kinda stuff for a while now.

534623
01-20-2013, 06:40 AM
Here's the link to the last study:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01669746?term=ji+gami&rank=2
According to this (Ji Gami CN trail) ...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18805&stc=1&d=1358688915
... commercialization start would be anywhere in June-December 2015.

oh, and they WILL start to commercialize Gi Gami CN anywhere in 2015/2016.
To get FDA approval for GI Gami, THIS is definitely not the problem ...

yeahyeahyeah
01-20-2013, 06:42 AM
According to this (Ji Gami CN trail) ...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18805&stc=1&d=1358688915
... commercialization start would be anywhere in June-December 2015.

oh, and they WILL start to commercialize Gi Gami CN anywhere in 2015/2016.
To get FDA approval for GI Gami, THIS is defenitely not the problem ...

Where did you get the source for this?

Thinning87
01-20-2013, 06:47 AM
It took them years to do phase 2, how do you know they will be done with phase 3 so quickly?

yeahyeahyeah
01-20-2013, 06:57 AM
It took them years to do phase 2, how do you know they will be done with phase 3 so quickly?

You best bet is histogen.

534623
01-20-2013, 06:59 AM
It took them years to do phase 2, how do you know they will be done with phase 3 so quickly?
The pic I posted, is based on Dr. Washenik's original timeline pic he presented in June 2010 in Tokyo - I have just prolonged accordingly his timeline pic.

Anyway, in Washenik's timeline pic, he calculated for every phase 2 and phase 3 trail (see the BLACK arrows Washenik made in the pic!) around 15-18 month.

here is Washenik's original timeline pic:

http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/

He is actually very similar to Nigam:
Washenik changes every 2 years his protocol, Nigam every 2 days.

StinkySmurf
01-20-2013, 09:36 AM
Unlike with drugs or HT, where you increase risk the "more" of the procedure you use, with Aderans procedure you do not increase risk on successive treatments. And each time, you have the same odds of growing hair. With the same odds each time and zero increased risk, results should be compoundable.

I'm not sure about this theory... Only time will tell. But that's what I'm relying on now for Aderans. I think I'm right on this. But if this theory doesn't pan out, Aderans may become yet another colossal failure[/I]"

Desmond, you've mentioned several times you think cultured DP cells don't increase or decrease in number so doesn't there have to be some type of upper limit on the number of cells you can have placed in your scalp like this and if we're worried about a remote chance of skin cancer does this increase it or is the cancer risk really unrelated to the dosage?

Desmond84
01-20-2013, 02:58 PM
Desmond, you've mentioned several times you think cultured DP cells don't increase or decrease in number so doesn't there have to be some type of upper limit on the number of cells you can have placed in your scalp like this and if we're worried about a remote chance of skin cancer does this increase it or is the cancer risk really unrelated to the dosage?

That's a really good question and unfortunately only can be answered by the Aderans team. Their preclinical studies showed that extra DP cells do find their way into the hair follicle and aggregate with the original DP cells. So although there might be an upper limit, if the hair follicle has shrunk then more DP cells may be able to bind!

With regards to cancer, that's something they've been monitoring for FDA approval since day 1. I am also a bit worried about that but can't really comment until I read their clinical data.

In theory though, it should be OK. I mean even though we don't have anybody offering DP transplantation at this point, we know of many hospitals using stem cell transplantations and that has proven safe with no risk of cancer!

StinkySmurf
01-20-2013, 03:14 PM
That's a really good question and unfortunately only can be answered by the Aderans team. Their preclinical studies showed that extra DP cells do find their way into the hair follicle and aggregate with the original DP cells. So although there might be an upper limit, if the hair follicle has shrunk then more DP cells may be able to bind!

Haha! yes, I guess I wonder more about the cells that didn't bind to a follicle. Where do they end up and is that bad if you get too many floating around with nothing to do?

Hey I sent an email to your hotmail

Desmond84
01-20-2013, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the ones that didn't make it!

Your body has immune cells that Police the intracellular environment. These include T cells, B cells, Macrophages, etc...

If they detect a cell that shouldn't be there, they either engulf it and cause phagocytosis (implode) or rupture the cell and cause apoptosis (explode).

Btw I just replied to ur email ;)

neversaynever
01-20-2013, 03:50 PM
"The cells of the DP are not only essential for hair follicle development and function, but are also a reservoir of cells with the potential to differentiate into a range of cell types that are of potential therapeutic importance"

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/124/8/1179.full

Maybe those cells unused by the follicles are destroyed by the immune system, but I guess theres a chance that they become different cell types.

534623
01-20-2013, 04:35 PM
Here's a little summary ;)

DHT is by far the main culprit, hence why Finasteride is so powerful at halting hairloss. Now:

1) To date, we have only found Androgen receptors on the dermal papillae & sebaceous glands of hair follicles.


DP cells are the most important contributor to follicle growth and cycling.

Sebaceous glands don't serve any roles in terms of growth, they are more of a supportive structure.

Hence, the reason why Aderans decided to use DP cells! Here's the link:

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v9.../5612065a.html

YOUR LINK DOESN'T WORK!

2) Here's the most AMAZING finding: back in late 90's it was found that "Dermal papillae extracted from occipital scalp hair follicles (donor area) lack Androgen receptors!

Here's the link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...706.x/abstract

That's why I think at least in theory, DHT-resistance may be possible!

In another word, after DP transplantation, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle (this is known as a "chimeric" follicle btw):

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!

Here's a little excerpt from one of the publications I found:

"The treatment area would be miniaturized follicles that are cosmetically insignificant, and the strategy would be to rejuvenate miniaturized follicles by the insertion of hair-inductive DP cells. Because the cellular target in androgenetic alopecia is the dermal papilla, providing the follicle with new, androgen-insensitive DP cells might reactivate the follicle to form a normal (terminal) hair. "


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884703/

Furthermore:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate." They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

Thanks, Desmond - I didn't see your answer.

Anyway, the 1st posted link doesn't work - so I can't see who are the scientists who talk so much BS. The thingy with the sebaceous glands is correct. The "Tokyo-guys" confirmed this recently too.

yeahyeahyeah
01-21-2013, 07:37 AM
The pic I posted, is based on Dr. Washenik's original timeline pic he presented in June 2010 in Tokyo - I have just prolonged accordingly his timeline pic.

Anyway, in Washenik's timeline pic, he calculated for every phase 2 and phase 3 trail (see the BLACK arrows Washenik made in the pic!) around 15-18 month.

here is Washenik's original timeline pic:

http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/

He is actually very similar to Nigam:
Washenik changes every 2 years his protocol, Nigam every 2 days.

Who made the black arrow, you or him?

I am confused.

534623
01-21-2013, 07:48 AM
Who made the black arrow, you or him?

I am confused.

Spencer Kobren made the original black arrows in the original timeline pic - as explained in my previous post.

Desmond84
01-22-2013, 02:15 AM
Guys if Aderans can halt hair loss with a single treatment we are in a much better place than today!

Keep checking this thread for new info! Don't give up my brothers and sisters!

We are most probably really close :cool:

534623
01-22-2013, 03:35 AM
Guys if Aderans can halt hair loss with a single treatment we are in a much better place than today!

Keep checking this thread for new info!
You’re a little bit overoptimistic.

http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18817&stc=1&d=1358850648
In this presentation (June 2010), Dr. Washenik is talking about “Ji Gami CN” – the final product.
CN is THE product, which works best of all (9 all in all) the other protocols (N, C, etc). In his old timeline table (2010), Dr. WASHENIK (not me or someone else, of course!) calculated the duration for every phase 2 or phase 3 trail with around 15-18 month – again, according to Washenik’s BLACK ARROWS in his old timeline table.

But the phase 2 clinical trail for Ji Gami CN …

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01669746?term=ji+gami&rank=2

... started, in fact, in June, 2012 - and NOT in spring, 2011 (according to Washenik’s old timeline) – right?

According to this …
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18805&stc=1&d=1358688915

… THIS would be, in fact (best-case-scenario), the new timeline table.

And there is a question:
How long does it take 1) to get around 1000 trail subjects or so (?) for phase 3 trails – including 2) collecting and evaluating of all the outcome-data after around 18 month or so? And finally 3) how long does it take to get FDA approval thereafter?

And there is still THE big problem concerning "effectiveness" …

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html

If the ARI guys are still using the existing hair follicle structure, and that’s what they say, the mentioned “leakage-problem” in AGA affected skin is definitely NOT solved with this kind of approach.

Desmond84
01-22-2013, 05:35 AM
You’re a little bit overoptimistic.

http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18817&stc=1&d=1358850648
In this presentation (June 2010), Dr. Washenik is talking about “Ji Gami CN” – the final product.
CN is THE product, which works best of all (9 all in all) the other protocols (N, C, etc). In his old timeline table (2010), Dr. WASHENIK (not me or someone else, of course!) calculated the duration for every phase 2 or phase 3 trail with around 15-18 month – again, according to Washenik’s BLACK ARROWS in his old timeline table.

But the phase 2 clinical trail for Ji Gami CN …

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01669746?term=ji+gami&rank=2

... started, in fact, in June, 2012 - and NOT in spring, 2011 (according to Washenik’s old timeline) – right?

According to this …
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18805&stc=1&d=1358688915

… THIS would be, in fact (best-case-scenario), the new timeline table.

And there is a question:
How long does it take 1) to get around 1000 trail subjects or so (?) for phase 3 trails – including 2) collecting and evaluating of all the outcome-data after around 18 month or so? And finally 3) how long does it take to get FDA approval thereafter?

And there is still THE big problem concerning "effectiveness" …

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html

If the ARI guys are still using the existing hair follicle structure, and that’s what they say, the mentioned “leakage-problem” in AGA affected skin is definitely NOT solved with this kind of approach.

Dude I had exactly the same thoughts on the release date! Late 2015 sounds reasonable and realistic!

With regards to efficacy, they showed that with a single therapy session they achieved what Propecia could do in 60% of patients! Now I might be optimistic but that's one hell of an achievement!

Don't forget that histogen is also on the horizon and will boost the regrowth numbers even further!

Sorry about the post b4. I just saw that thread about IARHS conference and was raging when I saw the 8-10 years thing!

To a HAIRY FUTURE :cool:

Desmond84
01-22-2013, 05:38 AM
If the leakage thing is true we probably wouldn't be getting results close to Propecia (15-20% regrowth + maintenance).

P.S. That study is in 2003 way before Aderans got to tweak their formula!

534623
01-22-2013, 06:02 AM
Don't forget that histogen is also on the horizon and will boost the regrowth numbers even further!
I have no doubts ... :o

534623
01-22-2013, 06:30 AM
If the leakage thing is true we probably wouldn't be getting results close to Propecia (15-20% regrowth + maintenance).

P.S. That study is in 2003 way before Aderans got to tweak their formula!

Even so ...
**************************
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=99898

"....ideas are summarized in Figure 1. This is a highly simplified model diagram because the exchange of cells between the papilla and sheath occurs at specific and different times of the hair cycle, as may the loss of cells from the follicle dermal sheath into the dermis. However, what it attempts to illustrate is the idea that movement of dermal cells may occur not only within the follicle but to the skin dermis as well, and that this may occur both in trauma situations and during the dynamic migratory phases of the hair cycle."
**************************

What does it mean?
First of all, this is still a scientific fact; namely, that hair follicles per se are NOT prone to "soak-up" any additional or injected cells in every hair cycle stage/phase (anagen-catagen-telogen-anagen again etc etc).
Second, each and every HUMAN hair follicle on your head cycles independent from other hair follicles - even within a so-called follicular unit (FU). In simple words, they do not cycle synchronously (as in rabbits or mice etc), especially in skin undergoing AGA.

So, what does it mean?
If you inject additional cells (even with a "tweaked formula"), not all hair follicles in the skin will "soak them up", simply because not every hair follicle is prone to soak them up. So this will cause "patchy hair growth" within your balding areas. You simply do not know when it's the proper moment for a distinct (already somewhat miniaturized) hair follicle in the skin. So this would, in fact, require multiple procedure during an unkown timeframe (for 2-3 years or more or so, until every follicle has finally been "caught" in its proper moment).

Actually, Dr. Washenik himself addressed exactly this problem in his presentation recently ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

So WHAT EXACTLY is he saying concerning this issue?
Tell me ... :rolleyes:

sausage
01-26-2013, 01:22 PM
Does this only potentially stop hairloss.......not regrow it?

BoSox
01-26-2013, 02:47 PM
Does this only potentially stop hairloss.......not regrow it?

Their goal is to produce unlimited amount of donor hair.. Stopping hair loss is not enough.

534623
01-26-2013, 03:23 PM
Their goal is to produce unlimited amount of donor hair..
Stopping hair loss is not enough.
That's the point and question where my previous post ended up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

Is Dr. Washink saying in the video what you say?
So what exactly is he saying concerning "producing unlimited amount of donor hair"?
Is this still their goal?

Desmond84
01-27-2013, 02:18 AM
Hey guys,

Here's a recent news regarding "Stem cell transplantation" that could be very relevant to hair loss sufferers awaiting treatments such as Aderans / Stem cell studies:

"The report in the December 2012 edition of Scientific American illustrates clearly that just because a stem cell therapy utilizes a patient's own cells, it does NOT mean the treatment is without serious risk.

Most stem cell treatments are experimental, and they should be fully evaluated for safety and efficacy before human use.

In this case, the patient's transplanted cells turned into bone in the tissue surrounding the eye, causing pain and loss of mobility, and necessitating surgery to remove the graft."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=stem-cell-cosmetics

Just a thought but let's say if Aderans was proven safe, would injecting Histogen into these treated areas after an Aderans session have an unknown effect on newly injected DP cells!

It seems there's a lot we still don't know!

hellouser
01-27-2013, 11:41 AM
How do you guys feel about Aderans affecting diffuse thinners?

I'm hoping it will do wonders and have a feeling it will work best for guys like me with diffuse thinning. I've thinned out about 4+ years ago but have basically stayed the same thickness since (possibly thinned out a little more but not much, not noticeably anyway). I'm currently on Minox and RU and hoping it will regrow some until Aderans is out... shouldnt be too long but the wait is killing me. I have a feeling I should be ok until Aderans is available considering I've had more or less the same hairline for the past 7+ years and more or less the same thickness for 4+ years. Aderans made claims they'd be available by 2014 Q1... I think with RU I should maintain what I got until then or even longer should Aderans take an extra year for an actual product.

*fingers crossed*

Desmond84
01-28-2013, 04:12 AM
"The cells of the DP are not only essential for hair follicle development and function, but are also a reservoir of cells with the potential to differentiate into a range of cell types that are of potential therapeutic importance"

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/124/8/1179.full

Maybe those cells unused by the follicles are destroyed by the immune system, but I guess theres a chance that they become different cell types.

Neversaynever that's a great point and made me look into so much information to find an answer! LOL

What I found is intriguing but NOT so bad! You are right about unused DP cells! What happens to them is anyone's guess and most probably will be dependent on the medium they end up in!

That study I posted in the previous post clearly highlights that the stem cells transformed into bones because of co-administeration of Calcium Hydroxyapatite!

But then again, any major problems with Ji Gami should get picked up in Phase 3 trials or a few years after its completion!

One thing is for sure though! Aderans is a permanent therapy, once they inject you with it, there's no way to undo it. So, it is more than likely that after using Aderans, you will have to be very careful with future therapies you decide to undergo. FOr example. Histogen may have an unpredictable effect on these transplanted DP cells and might turn them into something else!

Again guys, we are NOT trying to make anyone lose hope or put down upcoming therapies! We're simply discussing the potential risks of these therapies. This way we can demand more information from these companies to ensure their products are truly safe!


Cheers...

Jairus
01-28-2013, 02:45 PM
Neversaynever that's a great point and made me look into so much information to find an answer! LOL

What I found is intriguing but NOT so bad! You are right about unused DP cells! What happens to them is anyone's guess and most probably will be dependent on the medium they end up in!

That study I posted in the previous post clearly highlights that the stem cells transformed into bones because of co-administeration of Calcium Hydroxyapatite!

But then again, any major problems with Ji Gami should get picked up in Phase 3 trials or a few years after its completion!

One thing is for sure though! Aderans is a permanent therapy, once they inject you with it, there's no way to undo it. So, it is more than likely that after using Aderans, you will have to be very careful with future therapies you decide to undergo. FOr example. Histogen may have an unpredictable effect on these transplanted DP cells and might turn them into something else!

Again guys, we are NOT trying to make anyone lose hope or put down upcoming therapies! We're simply discussing the potential risks of these therapies. This way we can demand more information from these companies to ensure their products are truly safe!


Cheers...

Des

When you say Aderans is permanent do u mean a one time injection or will we need to get it topped up every few years?

Thanks

Desmond84
01-29-2013, 03:13 AM
Des

When you say Aderans is permanent do u mean a one time injection or will we need to get it topped up every few years?

Thanks

Their trials are a ONCE-OFF treatment, there are no follow up injections!

From what I understand, DP cells remain the same throughout your whole life, so in theory there will not be any need for a top up! Then again we may be proven wrong once ppl start using it on a mass scale and we realise that we do need a top up every 10-15 years!

More importantly, my main point was that if there are adverse events associated with it, these may persist for a long time as we don't have a way to remove these cells once they are transplanted!

Vox
01-29-2013, 04:06 AM
More importantly, my main point was that if there are adverse events associated with it, these may persist for a long time as we don't have a way to remove these cells once they are transplanted!
This is my main preoccupation with this kind of treatment. I am afraid it will take decades in order to have life-long lasting and risk-free hair regeneration/multiplication inside the human body.

I have more faith in in-vitro hair multiplication and then transplantation.

Kiwi
01-29-2013, 11:43 AM
Their trials are a ONCE-OFF treatment, there are no follow up injections!

From what I understand, DP cells remain the same throughout your whole life, so in theory there will not be any need for a top up! Then again we may be proven wrong once ppl start using it on a mass scale and we realise that we do need a top up every 10-15 years!

More importantly, my main point was that if there are adverse events associated with it, these may persist for a long time as we don't have a way to remove these cells once they are transplanted!

Now you're freaking me out - somebody with BAD Fin sides needs to guiney pig this one!!

534623
01-30-2013, 04:38 AM
That's the point and question where my previous post ended up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

Is Dr. Washink saying in the video what you say?
So what exactly is he saying concerning "producing unlimited amount of donor hair"?
Is this still their goal?
Okay - this is the third time I'm asking the same question ...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19010&stc=1&d=1359545663
(04:30>>>) "The problem with that assay was …"

So what exactly is he saying concerning this problem, or in other words:
why did they cast away their initial idea of creating thousands of brand new follicles from scratch?

Boldy
01-30-2013, 05:18 AM
Not easy to roll out into the clinics (money) it does not fit in their profit plan.

For example it costs them 4 K to culture the DP cells. that would mean they have to sell the procedure for 6-8 K. end result less people interested(less end profit).


their second not so promising method is probably easier, does not require special trained professionals and is easily done for 500 usd (just an example). this way they can sell the procedure for 2-4 K per person. end result much interested people that can afford it. more profit, and repeated procedure per person until the head gets full of hair....


Conclusion: its all about the money they don't give a **** about our hairs..



what can we do about it?
1. Accept the fact that DP culture could take yet again another 5-10 before it hits the market.
2. Find our own solution that consists of DP culture and do it somewhere probably in Asia.

Boldy
01-30-2013, 05:46 AM
another thing also these dp cells should be cultured under 5% co2, 37C, super controlled environment. the process itself is pretty labor intensive. Costs to much + the profit they want of it.

it would be a rich peoples cure only..

Knowing this, disappoints me, and have to make my own plan.


Not easy to roll out into the clinics (money) it does not fit in their profit plan.

For example it costs them 4 K to culture the DP cells. that would mean they have to sell the procedure for 6-8 K. end result less people interested(less end profit).


their second not so promising method is probably easier, does not require special trained professionals and is easily done for 500 usd (just an example). this way they can sell the procedure for 2-4 K per person. end result much interested people that can afford it. more profit, and repeated procedure per person until the head gets full of hair....


Conclusion: its all about the money they don't give a **** about our hairs..



what can we do about it?
1. Accept the fact that DP culture could take yet again another 5-10 before it hits the market.
2. Find our own solution that consists of DP culture and do it somewhere probably in Asia.

534623
01-30-2013, 05:53 AM
Not easy to roll out into the clinics (money) it does not fit in their profit plan.
Is it that what he is saying at the meeting/in the video?

Seriously, NOBODY is talking here about your dp crap paranoia.

Boldy
01-30-2013, 06:54 AM
Is it that what he is saying at the meeting/in the video?




it comes down to that.


Seriously, NOBODY is talking here about your dp crap paranoia.


Oh man you can't be serious right?.. You seem more stupid than I ever expected someone to be ... sometimes I really feel sorry for you. I guess people are right on this forum, that you are not good in your head...

if you read at least their first study it is DP culture that they show on the youtube video. so the video is for sure taking about DP.. and they stepped away from that due to a limiting factor which can be 1 only one thing, therefor reread my post 1 page back.

534623
01-30-2013, 07:08 AM
it comes down to that.

REALLY?
He is saying at the meeting something like "Producing of thousands brand new follicles from scratch works fantastic" ... "but it's not easy to roll out this into the clinics because it does not fit in our profit plan".... :rolleyes:

I give a sh't what you BELIEVE what's the real reason - everything I want to know from another user here is WHAT EXACTLY IS HE SAYING IN THE VIDEO concerning this issue - and not any paranoia out of your ass.

Boldy
01-30-2013, 07:41 AM
omg, I guess its better to ignore you posts from now on.

hellouser
01-30-2013, 08:54 AM
Conclusion: its all about the money they don't give a **** about our hairs..


Good. Because the sooner they release, they sooner theyre going to GET MY MONEY. And I'm willing to throw down thousands of dollars.

I do think many of the guys behind Aderans do care about us and our hair, but their investors are more interested in money. And that should say a lot too, because anytime theres cash involved, you know for sure theyre going to want to bank on it FAST. Money actually is far more of a push than anything else, lol, this should give you a lot of confidence. And I don't say this to sound cynical of the situation, because I usually am especially since George Carlin is one of my idols. I say this because humanity is greedy and if stopping/reversing hair loss is done in the name of money, I guarantee yo there will be a mandate for it.

You made the point that if we dont get a solution we make our own... well, since countries are ultimately run by the people, why dont you make an effort to FORCE the solution to be made available? Start up a rally, organization, community, join others, make a strong case for it (and that includes the tax benefits too) and you'll win some people over.

534623
01-30-2013, 09:12 AM
I do think many of the guys behind Aderans do care about us and our hair, but their investors are more interested in money.

That's right. Their care about baldies and their hair as well as their breakthrough (marketing)techniques is well-known everywhere:

http://youtu.be/iCTxLBOMOSU

http://youtu.be/BwqvpDCoeLg

http://youtu.be/C7SwA1ENqxI

UK_
01-30-2013, 01:05 PM
And.... they're only going to make real money....

.... if the product fcking works!!!!!!

garethbale
01-30-2013, 01:08 PM
That's right. Their care about baldies and their hair as well as their breakthrough (marketing)techniques is well-known everywhere:

http://youtu.be/iCTxLBOMOSU

http://youtu.be/BwqvpDCoeLg

http://youtu.be/C7SwA1ENqxI


you are a ****ing weirdo! seriously, seek help!

UK_
01-30-2013, 01:13 PM
There is still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8DtIVIA_3g

534623
01-30-2013, 01:34 PM
There is still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8DtIVIA_3g

ah, yeah, right. In the past, Dr. Hoffmann has always very impressed about the Intercytex guys. Here is the reason in chronological order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2nd March 2001
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/pr2001/2001-03-02/
Hair loss affects approximately forty percent of men and twenty percent of women aged fifty and over. In the US alone, an estimated 40 million men and 20 million women suffer from baldness and spend $1.5 billion annually on hair loss therapies. Addressing this market, Intercytex is pioneering novel methods for the transplant of dermal hair follicle cells. This technology could be used as a means of regenerating hair, overcoming the need to remove whole hairs from one part of the body and subsequent transplant to another. It also opens the potential for large numbers of hair-generating cells to be expanded in tissue culture and packaged as a one-step solution to hair-loss.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th May 2004
Based on emerging positive results from its Phase I study, Intercytex also announced it is planning to initiate Phase II US and UK multi-centre clinical trials of TrichoCyte later this year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th October 2006
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2006/2006-10-06/
Intercytex awarded £1.85m grant from the DTI to automate production of innovative hair regeneration therapy
The grant will be used primarily to develop a dedicated robotic system to support the commercial-scale production of dermal papilla (DP) cells, the main cells involved in hair regeneration and the key component of ICX-TRC. ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product which has recently entered Phase II clinical trials.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
25th September 2007
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-09-25/
Hair regeneration – first 12 patients treated in Phase II trial of ICX-TRC
Post period-end highlights
Preliminary data from Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration shows increased hair counts and good safety profile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th December 2007
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-12-18/
In September this year we announced the first results from the current Phase II trial. In the sub-group of subjects (5 in total) whose scalp was pre-stimulated at the time of injection all subjects showed substantial and visible increased hair counts at 6 and/or 12 weeks (13-105%). We believe this increased hair production is attributable to the interaction between the injected DP cells and the stimulated resident hair producing cells.
A further 5 subjects have now been treated with ICX-TRC using the pre-stimulation technique with 2 more expected in January. By the end of March 2008 we expect to announce preliminary 12 week data on up to 16 subjects in total and preliminary 24 week data on up to 10 subjects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th September 2008
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2008/2008-09-18/
Intercytex Group plc – Interim results for the six months ended 30 June 2008
ICX-TRC - hair regeneration
Data from the Phase II trial shows increase in hair count in 11 out of 14 (79%) evaluable subjects at 24 weeks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th January 2009
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-01-26a/
Intercytex implements restructuring actions to reduce cash burn
Completion of the Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration continues to be expected at the end of this quarter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th March 2009
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-03-26/
ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product. Phase II trial completed
· Positive data from Phase II trial announced today - increase in hair count in the majority of evaluable subjects observed at 48 weeks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The big OOOPS...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
October 16 2009
http://www.baldingblog.com/2009/10/16/did-intercytex-fail/
Did Intercytex Fail?
"What happened was that the positive results of clinical trials were not as efficient as the lab ones. In other words although promising and exciting, not quite good enough to justify applying for a therapeutic product for the public."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyway, so what can we learn from these "confident and exciting trial results" reports?

Anyway, Aderans bought "OOOPS" a few years ago - and they are still in the "OOOPS phase" ... :rolleyes: ... even with the usage of BOTH cell types, epithelial and mesenchymal ("inducer and responder cells") - from the DHT resistent donor area.

The Alchemist
01-30-2013, 05:11 PM
The Intercytex case is, depressingly, very instructive. All the posters on here making claims about Histogen and Aderans, as if commercialization is a foregone conclusion, need to understand that even a successful phase II is no guarantee of approval. Phase III is a big undertaking for a company and is extremely expensive - they'll enter it only when they are highly confident in the their protocol

I'm not convinced that what Aderans has shown to date will be convincing enough to justify the company sinking millions into a phase III trial. Hopefully their final results from the phase II are significantly better than what they've shown to date. The presentation they made (posted recently) was not exactly inspiring. I guess we'll have to keep an eye on them and see if they make any announcements for initiation of phase III. If we don't hear any phase III talk by the mid point of this year, i'd begin to worry.

Kirby_
01-30-2013, 05:58 PM
The Intercytex case is, depressingly, very instructive. All the posters on here making claims about Histogen and Aderans, as if commercialization is a foregone conclusion, need to understand that even a successful phase II is no guarantee of approval.
Wise words. :( I know we've all got to stay in a positive state of mind and avoid an Iron Man type downward spiral, but it's far from certain that any of these procedures will be ever be more than vapourware. I can see full well why on certain other hair loss forums, Aderans, Histogen etc are literally never discussed or even mentioned. The risk of investing too much mental energy into what may only be a false hope is great.

Still, this year may yet offer us hopeful signs... Just would like to be positively surprised by all this for once.

Kirby_
01-30-2013, 06:35 PM
And.... they're only going to make real money....

.... if the product fcking works!!!!!!
The profit motive is what will bring us (working) new treatments in the end, let's be honest.

The best thing for ALL of us is if there was a real 'arms war' amongst companies developing hairloss treatments. The first big new hairloss treatment to hit the mass-market would hopefully trigger a Cambrian explosion...

hellouser
01-30-2013, 06:55 PM
The profit motive is what will bring us (working) new treatments in the end, let's be honest.

The best thing for ALL of us is if there was a real 'arms war' amongst companies developing hairloss treatments. The first big new hairloss treatment to hit the mass-market would hopefully trigger a Cambrian explosion...

Well there are at least THREE that are close and two of those are neck and neck; Aderans and Histogen both know first come first serve in regards to seeing a f*ckload of money come rolling in... and then of course theres Replicel which are a bit behind. There are some others too and lets not forget the dude who's already got the cure; Dr. Roland Lauster. This guy has cracked the whole problem more than 2 years ago!

*frustrated*

The Alchemist
01-30-2013, 07:10 PM
Well there are at least THREE that are close and two of those are neck and neck; Aderans and Histogen both know first come first serve in regards to seeing a f*ckload of money come rolling in... and then of course theres Replicel which are a bit behind. There are some others too and lets not forget the dude who's already got the cure; Dr. Roland Lauster. This guy has cracked the whole problem more than 2 years ago!

*frustrated*


Replicel has on their website FAQ page a statement that says they hope to release in non-western jurisdictions in 2015.

"Nevertheless, if the technology proves safe and effective, RepliCel anticipates that a commercial product may be available in 2015 in non-Western jurisdictions."

"IF" haha! Hopefully they can do better than the phase I results.

http://www.replicel.com/hair-loss/faqs/

Not putting any hope into this company, but i'll watch them out of morbid curiosity.;)

Desmond84
01-31-2013, 04:19 AM
ah, yeah, right. In the past, Dr. Hoffmann has always very impressed about the Intercytex guys. Here is the reason in chronological order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2nd March 2001
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/pr2001/2001-03-02/
Hair loss affects approximately forty percent of men and twenty percent of women aged fifty and over. In the US alone, an estimated 40 million men and 20 million women suffer from baldness and spend $1.5 billion annually on hair loss therapies. Addressing this market, Intercytex is pioneering novel methods for the transplant of dermal hair follicle cells. This technology could be used as a means of regenerating hair, overcoming the need to remove whole hairs from one part of the body and subsequent transplant to another. It also opens the potential for large numbers of hair-generating cells to be expanded in tissue culture and packaged as a one-step solution to hair-loss.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th May 2004
Based on emerging positive results from its Phase I study, Intercytex also announced it is planning to initiate Phase II US and UK multi-centre clinical trials of TrichoCyte later this year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th October 2006
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2006/2006-10-06/
Intercytex awarded £1.85m grant from the DTI to automate production of innovative hair regeneration therapy
The grant will be used primarily to develop a dedicated robotic system to support the commercial-scale production of dermal papilla (DP) cells, the main cells involved in hair regeneration and the key component of ICX-TRC. ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product which has recently entered Phase II clinical trials.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
25th September 2007
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-09-25/
Hair regeneration – first 12 patients treated in Phase II trial of ICX-TRC
Post period-end highlights
Preliminary data from Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration shows increased hair counts and good safety profile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th December 2007
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-12-18/
In September this year we announced the first results from the current Phase II trial. In the sub-group of subjects (5 in total) whose scalp was pre-stimulated at the time of injection all subjects showed substantial and visible increased hair counts at 6 and/or 12 weeks (13-105%). We believe this increased hair production is attributable to the interaction between the injected DP cells and the stimulated resident hair producing cells.
A further 5 subjects have now been treated with ICX-TRC using the pre-stimulation technique with 2 more expected in January. By the end of March 2008 we expect to announce preliminary 12 week data on up to 16 subjects in total and preliminary 24 week data on up to 10 subjects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th September 2008
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2008/2008-09-18/
Intercytex Group plc – Interim results for the six months ended 30 June 2008
ICX-TRC - hair regeneration
Data from the Phase II trial shows increase in hair count in 11 out of 14 (79%) evaluable subjects at 24 weeks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th January 2009
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-01-26a/
Intercytex implements restructuring actions to reduce cash burn
Completion of the Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration continues to be expected at the end of this quarter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th March 2009
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-03-26/
ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product. Phase II trial completed
· Positive data from Phase II trial announced today - increase in hair count in the majority of evaluable subjects observed at 48 weeks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The big OOOPS...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
October 16 2009
http://www.baldingblog.com/2009/10/16/did-intercytex-fail/
Did Intercytex Fail?
"What happened was that the positive results of clinical trials were not as efficient as the lab ones. In other words although promising and exciting, not quite good enough to justify applying for a therapeutic product for the public."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyway, so what can we learn from these "confident and exciting trial results" reports?

Anyway, Aderans bought "OOOPS" a few years ago - and they are still in the "OOOPS phase" ... :rolleyes: ... even with the usage of BOTH cell types, epithelial and mesenchymal ("inducer and responder cells") - from the DHT resistent donor area.

Wow! Reading this really made me depressed! Is ADERANS really going down the drain like Intercytex!? :confused:

Why is MPB so complicated!

Desmond84
01-31-2013, 04:26 AM
Boldy are you serious!!!!

Aderans gave up on the DP idea! when did they announce that? What's going on all of a sudden!!!!!!!

I just read Dr Nigam claiming the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!

Boldy
01-31-2013, 05:39 AM
Boldy are you serious!!!!

Aderans gave up on the DP idea! when did they announce that? What's going on all of a sudden!!!!!!!

I just read Dr Nigam claiming the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!

yes I just found out after science @ hairloss help posted the youtube video...

Its not that bad, I mean if you have allot of money and patience, Aderans could give you a head with hair with their current strategy, but Im not supprised if it took xx amount sessions + years to get there. and then is still the question will these hairs last for ever? I must read or find literature of what they are currently doing.


they seem to isolate the cells around the dermal sheeth, culture them for 2 weeks (what I understand from the video), and then inject them back into the client. this process is less complicated then DP culture, but less efficient..


I guess we have to find our own lab:( if we want DP culture within 1-2 years.

anything is possible that is fore sure, but it would take knowledge and efforts.


I

StinkySmurf
01-31-2013, 08:42 AM
yes I just found out after science @ hairloss help posted the youtube video...

Its not that bad, I mean if you have allot of money and patience, Aderans could give you a head with hair with their current strategy, but Im not supprised if it took xx amount sessions + years to get there. and then is still the question will these hairs last for ever? I must read or find literature of what they are currently doing.


they seem to isolate the cells around the dermal sheeth, culture them for 2 weeks (what I understand from the video), and then inject them back into the client. this process is less complicated then DP culture, but less efficient..


I guess we have to find our own lab:( if we want DP culture within 1-2 years.

anything is possible that is fore sure, but it would take knowledge and efforts.


I

I can't seem to find that post by Science. Do you mind sharing that link?

Thanks!

534623
01-31-2013, 09:05 AM
they seem to isolate the cells around the dermal sheeth, culture them for 2 weeks (what I understand from the video), and then inject them back into the client. this process is less complicated then DP culture, but less efficient..

hi DP paranoia,
can you tell me please, in which literature did you find out, that culturing of hair follicle (stem)cells (=MULTIPLYING them) is "less complicated" then DP culture?

I mean, I know lots of papers which tell the contrary and these papers even explain about the problems involved - contrary to your beloved (but useless) DP culturing.

Oh, and what part of the Intercytex results don't you understand? Guess what they did, and which cells they multiplied and injected thereafter - and how "efficient" doing this has been.

StinkySmurf
01-31-2013, 09:26 AM
hi DP paranoia,
can you tell me please, in which literature did you find out, that culturing of hair follicle (stem)cells (=MULTIPLYING them) is "less complicated" then DP culture?

I mean, I know lots of papers which tell the contrary and these papers even explain about the problems involved - contrary to your beloved (but useless) DP culturing.

Oh, and what part of the Intercytex results don't you understand? Guess what they did, and which cells they multiplied and injected thereafter - and how "efficient" doing this has been.

I know you've said this before, but I'm not a science guy so maybe I just don't get it. Can you explain in some very simple way why you think Ji Gami doesn't work? Is it because you don't think they solved the shedding problem or is there more to it?

Thanks!

Boldy
01-31-2013, 10:20 AM
I know you've said this before, but I'm not a science guy so maybe I just don't get it. Can you explain in some very simple way why you think Ji Gami doesn't work? Is it because you don't think they solved the shedding problem or is there more to it?

Thanks!

hey man, read my post on past page, I have not said that it would not work:


Its not that bad, I mean if you have allot of money and patience, Aderans could give you a head with hair with their current strategy, but I'm not surprised if it took xx amount sessions + years to get there. and then is still the question will these hairs last for ever? I must read or find literature of what they are currently doing.



because the old good aga DP cells will be reactivated again with this new aderans approach. questions will rise will the miniaturize again by dht?

secondly you saw on the video some results are good, but not a full head of hare not a cure after 1 session, like the quote says, it will probably require multiple sessions to (maybe ) reach the desired results (full thicks NW0 for example). and than still it will leave us with the first question howling will these hairs no one knows that yet.


Its a good start, but not what I hoped for. healthy dermal papilla's that are not affected by DHT thats the perfect cure.

thats my opinion.

StinkySmurf
01-31-2013, 10:25 AM
hey man, read my post on past page, I have not said that it would not work:

Hey Boldy,

No, I'm actually asking 534623 why he thinks it won't work. He has obviously read this stuff so I kinda just want to hear what his reason is for thinking it doesn't work.

Thanks!

534623
01-31-2013, 02:45 PM
No, I'm actually asking 534623 why he thinks it won't work.
I thought I've already explained this issue in this thread here?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=99905&postcount=887

The scientific quote in my post (I couldn't edit the post anymore) is from this paper (last paragraph):
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html

By the way - why don't you guys give me a simple ANSWER?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=101226&postcount=898

Now I'm asking the 4th time: what exactly is Dr. Washenik saying in this video concerning this problem, or in other words:
why did they cast away their initial idea of creating thousands of brand new follicles from scratch?
Is it really so difficult to watch the video and to report here what exactly he is saying concerning this issue? I even described with a pic where in the video you can easily find this point. I mean, WHAT FOR is this thread? Discussing WHEN they will sell you "the cure"?

StinkySmurf
01-31-2013, 03:25 PM
Now I'm asking the 4th time: what exactly is Dr. Washenik saying in this video concerning this problem, or in other words:
why did they cast away their initial idea of creating thousands of brand new follicles from scratch?
Is it really so difficult to watch the video and to report here what exactly he is saying concerning this issue? I even described with a pic where in the video you can easily find this point. I mean, WHAT FOR is this thread? Discussing WHEN they will sell you "the cure"?

Yes, I could see that you have a point. I just wasn't sure where in the video you were talking about, and I got really busy, but I know exactly the part you're talking about now. I thought those pictures looked familiar :)

Yes, I thought this part was crucial. My interpretation is that they put neogenesis aside because they felt like it was much more difficult due to the aesthetic issues, and so instead they went for rejuvenating follicles. Thats why he says this will only work on people with miniaturized follicles like with male and female pattern baldness right after that, but I guess my question for you is why do you think it doesn't work just because it's not neogenesis?

534623
01-31-2013, 04:03 PM
My interpretation is that they put neogenesis aside because they felt like it was much more difficult due to the aesthetic issues, and so instead they went for rejuvenating follicles.
Right - he is basically talking about TWO different approaches:

- follicles neogenesis (implants of "hair seeds" to produce brand new hair follicles from scratch);

- injections of different cell types (similar approach) to "rejuvenate" existing hair structures in the (balding) scalp.

Before I explain the "rejuvenation thingy" problems again, could you please explain more specific the neogenesis thingy, and WHAT EXACTLY is he saying (simply say what he is saying - he doesn't say that much about it!) concerning the "difficult due to the aesthetic issues" thingy. This would be really great. :)

StinkySmurf
01-31-2013, 04:41 PM
Before I explain the "rejuvenation thingy" problems again, could you please explain more specific the neogenesis thingy, and WHAT EXACTLY is he saying (simply say what he is saying - he doesn't say that much about it!) concerning the "difficult due to the aesthetic issues" thingy. This would be really great. :)

"The problem with the hair patch assay was it was not very translatable to the human condition, and early on we spent a lot of time looking at developing architecture that... err scaffolding... that we can put our cells in to try to orient the growth of hair follicles because despite all of the success that we are so proud of this is of limited utility in an aesthetic environment."

So there you go. They went with an approach they could make it through Phase 3 with on a $150 million dollar budget instead of going for something so complex as creating a follicle with a scaffolding because that involves aesthetic issues like the angle of hair growth that are an order of magnitude more difficult and these are not folks that want to go outside the company for money. This is a slightly down on it's luck $500 million dollar company where the majority of shares are held by just three parties, and lets face it, they don't want to go after the market of people that are willing to have surgery... thats the whole point of the opening chart where they say they want to be the botox of hair. In other words, they want to reach economies of scale. They are not looking for a solution that involves needing a bunch of artist grade plastic surgeons. They're looking for something thats mass market at least initially.

hellouser
01-31-2013, 04:47 PM
"The problem with the hair patch assay was it was not very translatable to the human condition, and early on we spent a lot of time looking at developing architecture that... err scaffolding... that we can put our cells in to try to orient the growth of hair follicles because despite all of the success that we are so proud of this is of limited utility in an aesthetic environment."

So there you go. They went with an approach they could make it through Phase 3 with on a $150 million dollar budget instead of going for something so complex as creating a follicle with a scaffolding because that involves aesthetic issues like the angle of hair growth that are an order of magnitude more difficult and these are not folks that want to go outside the company for money. This is a slightly down on it's luck $500 million dollar company where the majority of shares are held by just three parties, and lets face it, they don't want to go after the market of people that are willing to have surgery... thats the whole point of the opening chart where they say they want to be the botox of hair. In other words, they want to reach economies of scale. They are not looking for a solution that involves needing a bunch of artist grade plastic surgeons. They're looking for something thats mass market at least initially.

Yup. Its a different approach. The investors looking to cash in on this are probably anxious as hell to get the ball rolling and watch their bank accounts explode. I've already started saving up cash for any procedure necessary. At the moment I'm set to go with Gho in the meantime just for my hairline and thicken up whatever else on the crown, but if Aderans has a commercial product like they said they would by Q1 of 2014, those investors will be happy to know I will easily hand over even a large sum of money just for their procedure. And I don't care what it costs... its my psychological health, that DOESNT have a price. These guys are out to make a killing.

Having said that.. is Aderans a publicly traded company? Cuz holy crap I'd like to buy some stock.

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 04:46 AM
If they're not using DP cells then there will not be DHT resistance! Their current treatment will probably only delay the inevitable!

Replicel, Aderans, Follica & Intercytex have all folded!

Histogen is all that's left to give us a slight regrowth before we lose it all within 5 years!!!

It's all over I think! Baldness will not be cured in this decade :(

We lost out!

Jairus
02-01-2013, 05:44 AM
If they're not using DP cells then there will not be DHT resistance! Their current treatment will probably only delay the inevitable!

Replicel, Aderans, Follica & Intercytex have all folded!

Histogen is all that's left to give us a slight regrowth before we lose it all within 5 years!!!

It's all over I think! Baldness will not be cured in this decade :(

We lost out!

WTF!! - Are you serious or mimicking some of the haters?

Kirby_
02-01-2013, 07:01 AM
Wait, I'm confused - is Aderans just the old Intercytex rebadged, and equally won't work/will never get released?!

amibald
02-01-2013, 07:15 AM
If they're not using DP cells then there will not be DHT resistance! Their current treatment will probably only delay the inevitable!

Replicel, Aderans, Follica & Intercytex have all folded!

Histogen is all that's left to give us a slight regrowth before we lose it all within 5 years!!!

It's all over I think! Baldness will not be cured in this decade :(

We lost out!

Gho? 10char

Artista
02-01-2013, 07:16 AM
"Replicel, Aderans, Follica & Intercytex have all folded!"
Based on WHAT exactly?

Boldy
02-01-2013, 07:39 AM
It's all over I think! Baldness will not be cured in this decade :(

We lost out!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PXOqtxbiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I still have hope. and know everything is possible, with the right resources and knowledge. with that I know there are other ways as an alternative, but it will take much much work, efforts and a place to do it..

BTW, lets await aderans phase 2 results, maybe the regrowth is promising.. and maybe it lasts for xx years, enough until the next sessions. its to early to tell at this point.

Don't loose your hopes yet guys..

534623
02-01-2013, 07:51 AM
WTF!! - Are you serious or mimicking some of the haters?
Who are the haters? Am I a hater of novel approaches?
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18767&stc=1&d=1358425927
The guy on the left side is a normal young hairloss forums user like you. The guy on the right side is an abnormal hairloss forums user, because he always wants to know the FACTS about all these novel approaches – it’s me.
Nevertheless - both guys, as you can see in the pic, have the same problem; no matter how different they think about novel approaches. That means, BOTH would warmly greet such novel approaches; provided, their products work as promised.

You have to understand, that not every person out there in general or on hairloss forums is as “blue-eyed” than the other – bald or not. Sometimes they are not even interested to know WHEN something will hit the market; at first they are more interested about the WHETHER – whether or not something is working at all or whether or not there are any risks involved. Or whether or not something has at least the potential to work at all – before they get (over-)excited.

Anyway, as you can see, my tonsure area, for example, is still not slick bald per se; there are still lots of just miniaturized hairs.
So don’t you think that I too would rather WARMLY greet something like Aderans’ (new) “rejuvenation of existing hair follicles structures” idea, instead of doing (costly) hair transplants, to fill up all the bald areas with permanent und healthy terminal hairs producing follicles again?

So the question remains: do I believe in ARI’s old/new idea/approach?

Should I believe in ARI’s new idea? If YES, why? What are the FACTS?
Should I simply wait, instead of doing any hair transplants?
To avoid any loss of time, I have to find out IN ADVANCE whether or not something like ARI’s approach has at least the potential to work at all – in advance! That’s the point. At least, my standpoint.

Kirby_
02-01-2013, 08:12 AM
BTW, lets await aderans phase 2 results, maybe the regrowth is promising.. and maybe it lasts for xx years, enough until the next sessions. its to early to tell at this point.

Don't loose your hopes yet guys..
I suppose objectively, ANY new super-treatment or procedure, should it reach the market should be warmly welcomed... I think many of us forget how little means we have to treat hairloss effectively.

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 08:42 AM
Before I explain the "rejuvenation thingy" problems again

Ok, I did my part so lets hear the rejuvenation thingy. What makes you think ARI doesn't have a marketable product?

Artista
02-01-2013, 08:48 AM
Desmond, I have to ask again..

"Replicel, Aderans, Follica & Intercytex have all folded!"
"It's all over I think! Baldness will not be cured in this decade"
Based upon WHAT exactly Desmond?

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 08:50 AM
It's not out of the realm of possibility that Aderans could turn it's last study (Phase 3) that should start early 2013 into a 6-month study.[/I]

Hey Desmond, I've been fishing a little, and it seems the final trial will be a different length. I also heard it will be six months instead of 12, but it's not clear if it will be Phase 3 or not. People tend to clam up when you use words like Phase.

I also heard it could be a different baldness pattern, but it's not clear if that was similar to other routine changes between trial criteria or if it was a major difference.

I'm just wondering if you folks think they would do a final 6 month Phase 2 trial that covers everyone before they move into Phase 3?

534623
02-01-2013, 09:04 AM
"The problem with the hair patch assay was it was not very translatable to the human condition, and early on we spent a lot of time looking at developing architecture that... err scaffolding... that we can put our cells in to try to orient the growth of hair follicles because despite all of the success that we are so proud of this is of limited utility in an aesthetic environment."

So there you go. They went with an approach they could make it through Phase 3 with on a $150 million dollar budget instead of going for something so complex as creating a follicle with a scaffolding because that involves aesthetic issues like the angle of hair growth that are an order of magnitude more difficult and these are not folks that want to go outside the company for money. This is a slightly down on it's luck $500 million dollar company where the majority of shares are held by just three parties, and lets face it, they don't want to go after the market of people that are willing to have surgery... thats the whole point of the opening chart where they say they want to be the botox of hair. In other words, they want to reach economies of scale. They are not looking for a solution that involves needing a bunch of artist grade plastic surgeons. They're looking for something thats mass market at least initially.
Thanks Stinky Smurf, really great. THAT’s what I wanted to hear – concerning ARI’s former “brand new hair follicles from scratch” approach.

Okay, now it’s time talk about ARI’s new approach (basically similar to the other approach), and what Dr. Washenik is saying in the video concerning the new “Morphogenic Switch” approach …
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19068&stc=1&d=1359734425
http://youtu.be/l_JHbtXJ0a8
05:55>>>“This system will only work in people …”

So WHAT EXACTLY is he saying about this approach (which they intend to bring on the market)?
Can you please complete my quote/sentence above? What exactly is he saying? Can you help me please to find out whether or not this shit will work for me? :rolleyes:

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 01:55 PM
So WHAT EXACTLY is he saying about this approach (which they intend to bring on the market)?
Can you please complete my quote/sentence above? What exactly is he saying? Can you help me please to find out whether or not this shit will work for me? :rolleyes:

"And so this system will only work in people who have atrophic or miniaturized hair follicles... like in male pattern and female pattern... uhh... alopecia or hair loss or androgenetic allopecia... and the way we were able to pin down that mechanism is by injecting these male cells into that skin model..."

534623
02-01-2013, 02:11 PM
"And so this system will only work in people who have atrophic or miniaturized hair follicles... like in male pattern and female pattern... uhh... alopecia or hair loss or androgenetic allopecia... and the way we were able to pin down that mechanism is by injecting these male cells into that skin model..."
Right, thanks.
And what exactly is he saying in this scene ...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19073&stc=1&d=1359752617
"We injected the whole area (blue circle in the pic) after injecting cells just into the 4 sample injection sites." - or something. Results?
Then he is saying ...
"Those follicles who have been miniaturized for the shortest period of time and which are most receptive (prone to) for such kinds of approaches …" - or something, right?
Then he is saying something about skin samples from the trail subjects BEFORE they get cell-injections, to determine, whether or not a trail subject will be responsive for the treatment at all - right?
Does it mean they are doing this to "manipulate" the final trail results? I mean, does it make sense doing such pre-testing? I mean, of course they will get better results, when they just inject just those trail subjects, which are still "receptive" for such treatments - right? wtf...

534623
02-01-2013, 02:34 PM
Then he is saying something about skin samples from the trail subjects BEFORE they get cell-injections, to determine, whether or not a trail subject will be responsive for the treatment at all - right?
Does it mean they are doing this to "manipulate" the final trail results? I mean, does it make sense doing such pre-testing? I mean, of course they will get better results, when they just inject just those trail subjects, which are still "receptive" for such treatments - right? wtf...
Wow - IF I'm not completely wrong, the following (same) will happen as soon as this thingy is on the market ...

Dr. Cole wrote recently in another hairloss forum (in another context)...
**************************************
Here we go again with the argument about the advantage of adipose (fat) on the FUE grafts. This argument is as old at the one where novices like you tell us that patients need a FOX test first to see if they are candidates for FUE. We dispelled that theory in early 2003, yet you kept reporting that patients needed one. The Fox test was never necessary, but those who did not know how to do FUE needed a way to lure patients into their office for a FUE procedure. Then after the patient came in, the patient would have a FOX test that would show the follicle transection rate was too high so the patient would be told he needed a strip procedure. How do I know this happened? I had plenty of patients come to my office for a FUE procedure that had failed their FOX test, but they did not like the alternative – a strip procedure – so they came to see me. I did an FUE procedure on these patients with no problem.
**************************************

Do you guys understand what I mean/predict with that? :rolleyes:
Perhaps this is just a paranoia - but I doubt I have paranoia...

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 02:37 PM
Those follicles who have been miniaturized for the shortest period of time and which are most receptive (prone to) for such kinds of approaches …

"here later you can see the increase in hair follicles and obviously... countable... if you think of the balding circle... this is the edge of the balding circle so there are more hair follicles here whereas here towards the center fewer hair follicles... and you can see here the ability of these cells to turn on hair follicles that had been miniaturized and had been over time reduced, over and over, the length and duration of their anagen cycle"

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 02:41 PM
We injected the whole area (blue circle in the pic) after injecting cells just into the 4 sample injection sites.

Later we started injecting this whole balding area after we would inject the four square centimeters that we were gonna track with macrophotography.

534623
02-01-2013, 02:43 PM
"here later you can see the increase in hair follicles and obviously... countable... if you think of the balding circle... this is the edge of the balding circle so there are more hair follicles here whereas here towards the center fewer hair follicles... and you can see here the ability of these cells to turn on hair follicles that had been miniaturized and had been over time reduced, over and over, the length and duration of their anagen cycle"
Thanks StinkySmurf.
Could you please make a short transcript of the "skin sample thingy" I mentioned in my previous post? I think this part is pretty interesting ...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19074&stc=1&d=1359755339
I'm talking about this thingy.

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 02:50 PM
Do you guys understand what I mean/predict with that? :rolleyes:
Perhaps this is just a paranoia - but I doubt I have paranoia...

They filed the patent below for the pre-screen, but I don't think the scenario is the same as the fox test. Yes, they will try to sell you a HT if you can't get HM, and honestly, at thats the point where they probably should, but in my mind the pre-screen is what prevented people from moving forward in the past because your need 10 happy customers for every 1 unhappy customer so think of how hard it will be to market something that only works half the time. Your customers are going to get pretty pissed when they give a 1cm biopsy, and it doesn't work. You can give them a refund when it doesn't work, but then that effects your profit model, and it still doesn't fix the problem that your negative responses outweigh the positive ones.


http://www.aderansresearch.com/pdfs/US_Patent_7985537.pdf

534623
02-01-2013, 02:56 PM
Your customers are going to get pretty pissed when they give a 1cm² biopsy, and it doesn't work. You can give them a refund when it doesn't work, but then that effects your profit model, and it still doesn't fix the problem that your negative responses outweigh the positive ones.
Same thoughts here. And guess what:
They will get this on the market - for sure. And now guess how much just this TEST will cost a patient ... they will ALWAYS make a profit. But surely not always each and every patient.

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 03:07 PM
Desmond, I have to ask again..

"Replicel, Aderans, Follica & Intercytex have all folded!"
"It's all over I think! Baldness will not be cured in this decade"
Based upon WHAT exactly Desmond?

Artista, I'm so sorry for being so negative last night! Finding out about Aderans giving up their DP protocol really got me down! It was confirmed both by Boldy & IronMan and Dr. Nigam & Lauster!!!!

If their DP model was coming out, we would get to keep our remaining hair forever! so you can imagine my frustration when you find out they cheaped out just so they can make more money quicker :mad:

So here's what I mean:
- Replicel: Achieved 6% regrowth in most trial subjects. Now although the regrowth rate was low (Minoxidil: 10% & Fin: 15-20%), Replicel has the potential to immunise your follicles against DHT! Now, here's the problems:
a) Replicel has minimal funding and after releasing their recent results, their shares dropped in price by 300%!
b) Assuming they will try and improve their formula, they will try to conduct another Phase 2 results. This will push their product launch date back to at least 2017-2018.

- Aderans: Ji gami will cost at least $10,000-15,000. And that's just being optimistic. Now, I was happy to pay that knowing I will get to keep my hair for a very long time to come since my DP cells will be immune to DHT! But what they're doing now is different. They seem to be rejuvenating your hairs so that they grow again. They will then be like you should jump on Finasteride to keep this hair or it will miniaturise again! In such a case, would you pay them that kind of money? :(

- Intercytex: this company which was really well funded by UK government reached great heights and produced considerable amount of hair! But in 2008, recession hit Europe and their funding got pulled! So they shut down. Then, Aderans bought this company in order to gain their patents and research. But instead of using them, Aderans simply kept it on their shelves to prevent future competition!

- Follica: a company that had probably the most proactive scientist involved in hair loss (Dr Costralis) associated with it. Unfortunately, Follica finished their Phase 2 results in 2010 and never went into Phase 3. Dr Costralis then moved on with his PGD2 adventures and no new information about Follica has been released ever since!

Now, all we're left with are:
- Hair transplants
- Histogen

I wanna be psyched up about Tsuji Lab and Dr. Lauster. But their technique is a mammoth of a task compared to Replicel and Aderans. So, based on what we've gone through with Aderans/Relicel,I really don't know if they'll be successful in bringing out a solution before most of the guys on this forum turn 45-50!

I had so much hope for Aderans.....so much. Unfortunately, when a company releases very limited information over 11 years, you find yourself searching in the dark for a power switch that was never there!

I really want to be optimistic but I don't know how! I've been down this whole weekend!
:(

534623
02-01-2013, 03:25 PM
I had so much hope for Aderans.....so much.
Not just you ...

But hey hey ...


- Aderans: J
They seem to be rejuvenating your hairs so that they grow again. They will then be like you should jump on Finasteride to keep this hair or it will miniaturise again!
Even so, and IF this works what you describe, this would be superb for lots of guys out there. Maybe there will be something similar to Propecia in the meanwhile, but not that "risky" or problematic for patients. So the point is - HOW MUCH of your still existing hair will they indeed be able to "rejuvenate".

If it works, but just for an uncertain time or if you still need additional meds OR consecutive procedures etc, then it will be rather a question about the involved costs all in all over a period of time. In this case, I would rather go for transplants.

Jairus
02-01-2013, 03:26 PM
More great news...

This is a load of absolute bollox - seems they have let the dollar signs compromise the release of a genuine product.

What the f**k is the point in paying 10k for a product that will just rejuvinate and not immunize? The point of this was to do away with Fin.

Im not going near Fin and was really looking forward to Aderans.

Looks likw 4+ HT's for me now.

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 03:32 PM
If it works, but just for an uncertain time or if you still need additional meds etc, then it will be rather a question about the involved costs all in all over a period of time. In this case, I would rather go for transplants.

Exactly right!

What's the point of getting a 1cm2 bald patch just to find out there's 40% chance there's nothing they can do for you! On top of it, they will charge $500-$600 for this genetic test!

Then if you are a responder, you have to pay them $15000 just to rejuvenate hairs that only miniturised over the last 18 months!

Furthermore, you will still have to take Fin untill CB comes out! which wont be at least till 2017-2018

So, all in all is $15000 worth what they can achieve? that's definitely something that we should discuss!

534623
02-01-2013, 03:42 PM
So, all in all is $15000 worth what they can achieve? that's definitely something that we should discuss!
No, we shouldn't discuss this - otherwise the kids in this forum will create threads like "F***Off Desmond84 ..." or something ...:rolleyes:

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 03:46 PM
I was told by a person who I believed the results were very good so I'd like to know what exactly are they doing if they aren't doing DP. Anyone have a guess?

john2399
02-01-2013, 03:55 PM
15 grand? who the f would spend that shitload of money on this crappy treatment? Aderans is done.

UK Boy
02-01-2013, 04:01 PM
No, we shouldn't discuss this - otherwise the kids in this forum will create threads like "F***Off Desmond84 ..." or something ...:rolleyes:

To be honest I don't think they would, people tend to like Desmond on this forum. He has always been a postitive contributor to the forum. You contribute A LOT of stuff Ironman but you do it in a horrible, patronising way and you just have an answer for everything, you may be a very intelligent guy but a little tact and modesty goes a long way rather than just saying "I'm right and you're all idiots, this is why...."

I haven't been following this properly, I tend to just drift over your posts that go on and on, obviously Desmond has bothered to look into what you've said and has found it to be true. I also haven't seen where Dr's Lauster and Nigam back it up but again I'll trust Desmond on that one. Although when did Nigam become an authority on this stuff?! Last I heard everyone was saying he was a big fraud! And is Lauster posting on the forum now or something then? I thought we tend to never here anything from him anywhere.

Anywayz I agree that if all Aderans can do is rejunvinate recently miniturised follicles for an unknown period of time then they are useless. Their tests have all been on the crown as well haven't they? so there's a good chance that they'll do nothing on the frontal area at all, so def not worth the cost of losing a patch of scalp (I was never keen on this anyway and always prefered Histogen for this reason) or the cost in money. I wouldn't pay £1,000 for it let alone £15,000 hopefully the general consencious will be the same and they'll lose out big in the long run. Just so annoying that so much time and money was wasted on this.

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 04:03 PM
Iron_Man I really hope you're right about Aderans is still using DP!

As long as DP cells are used and it actually aggregates around the hair follicle structure, immunity to DHT may be possible!

We just have to wait till June and hear their official media release! God I'm so tired of waiting...

UK Boy
02-01-2013, 04:03 PM
I was told by a person who I believed the results were very good so I'd like to know what exactly are they doing if they aren't doing DP. Anyone have a guess?

Can you say who told you that? How would they know what the results were like? Were they a trial patient? or involved in Aderans? or were they just someone who saw a presentation?

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 04:08 PM
To be honest I don't think they would, people tend to like Desmond on this forum. He has always been a postitive contributor to the forum. You contribute A LOT of stuff Ironman but you do it in a horrible, patronising way and you just have an answer for everything, you may be a very intelligent guy but a little tact and modesty goes a long way rather than just saying "I'm right and you're all idiots, this is why...."

I haven't been following this properly, I tend to just drift over your posts that go on and on, obviously Desmond has bothered to look into what you've said and has found it to be true. I also haven't seen where Dr's Lauster and Nigam back it up but again I'll trust Desmond on that one. Although when did Nigam become an authority on this stuff?! Last I heard everyone was saying he was a big fraud! And is Lauster posting on the forum now or something then? I thought we tend to never here anything from him anywhere.

Anywayz I agree that if all Aderans can do is rejunvinate recently miniturised follicles for an unknown period of time then they are useless. Their tests have all been on the crown as well haven't they? so there's a good chance that they'll do nothing on the frontal area at all, so def not worth the cost of losing a patch of scalp (I was never keen on this anyway and always prefered Histogen for this reason) or the cost in money. I wouldn't pay £1,000 for it let alone £15,000 hopefully the general consencious will be the same and they'll lose out big in the long run. Just so annoying that so much time and money was wasted on this.

Thx Brother :)

I try to be positive! But there seems to be some truth behind what Iron_Man is saying! I don't know how I missed it! When you listen carefully, what they're using is a soup of dermal and epidermal cells without any indication as to what these cells might be!

Washenik also specifically points out that there has been definitely no new hair follicles forming!

With regards to Dr Lauster, that's something Dr. Nigam claimed he told him regarding Aderans! So who knows if he's making it up or not!

I'm not a big fan of Nigam either btw

UK Boy
02-01-2013, 04:11 PM
Iron_Man I really hope you're right about Aderans is still using DP!

As long as DP cells are used and it actually aggregates around the hair follicle structure, immunity to DHT may be possible!

We just have to wait till June and hear their official media release! God I'm so tired of waiting...

!!!????? I've been on here too much today - too many ups and downs it's like a roller coaster! Desmond (Mr.Optimistic) you were on this major downer - I thought you had definite proof of what you were saying and it was all over, now just because of what Ironman has said you've done a full reversal, taken it back and gone back to "We'll have to wait and see what they say the..." WTF!?

UK Boy
02-01-2013, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE=UK Boy;101862]!!!????? I've been on here too much today - too many ups and downs it's like a roller coaster! Desmond (Mr.Optimistic) you were on this major downer - I thought you had definite proof of what you were saying and it was all over, now just because of what Ironman has said you've done a full reversal, taken it back and gone back to "We'll have to wait and see what they say the..." WTF!?[/QUO

Please don't take this as offensive btw, I'm just well confused. I think it's just a case of we're all still a bit unsure. Like you said, just have to wait an see.

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 04:18 PM
Dude, I'm so sorry! (@UK_Boy)

THis stupid presentation by Aderans is like watching an epidose of Lost!

Before you watch it, you have 2 questions in your head. Once you finish watching, you end up with another 10 questions!!!

Aderans is very secretive unfortunately. You have to try and read between the lines and honestly I can't quite make out what's exactly in Ji Gami.

Unfortunately, everything I posted up until today was based on their 2010 presentation which went for over an hour! Since then they really have changed direction! They hardly mention DP cells anymore or follicular neogenesis!

They don't do interviews or answer our emails...so I really don't know how to clarify these burning questions! All I could come up with was to just wait till June :(

Brother, if there's any glimmer of hope, I'd be the first to jump on this forum and letting you all know about it.

This whole news just really messed me up

UK Boy
02-01-2013, 04:24 PM
No worries man, we're all in the same situation so I know exactly how it messes with you. It's a new year and we're all waiting on news from Histogen, Aderans etc. January feels like it's gone on forever and we've still prob got months to wait. :(

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 04:26 PM
Aderans is very secretive unfortunately. You have to try and read between the lines and honestly I can't quite make out what's exactly in Ji Gami.

Aderans has an existing business they need to protect for as long as possible. I would think the arrival of Ji Gami and HM will be good for the HT industry, but the pre-announcement will be the exact opposite so you just have to accept the fact that these guys have absolutely zero interest in helping us pin a date to this.

And forget about $15,000. The number that matters is $500 to $1000 which is the COGS. The list price will change over time.

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 04:36 PM
Seriously, wtf is saying that they don't involve also dermal papilla cells (if you like them so much)??

They simply use every useful mesenchymal cell type (dp included) AND epithelial cell types; and, of course, tested them (what works best etc).

I mean, during every presentation they make or patent they file, they always mention the same - namely, what I just explained.

DP cells, as always pretended by Nigam & dog, are definitely NOT "the commandment center" for hair follicle production. They are not even the "commandment center" for maintanance of hair follicles and circling. In the past, this has been just a theory.

Ok, so this is my question for you then, regardless of how they're doing it. What do you think the results are? What kind of results do you think they're getting and do you think these results are bad or what exactly is it you don't like about these results?

Desmond84
02-01-2013, 04:37 PM
You know I went back and re-read the posts that were written the last few days about Aderans to see how this whole thing about no DP in Aderans started. Here's some of them:



As per what German team said (Dr Lauster), they have met Dr Washniek,and as per boldy has done good research work on aderans ,it is said that Aderans use autologous epithelial stem cells and dermal sheath stem cells ,not dermal papilla culture,i may be wrong,check it yourself.As you know i am in the process to add inducible dp culture into my hm process.And further to this we would add cultured dermal papilla itself into our hm process.As dermal papilla and not just dp cells are the commanders to de novo start hair follicle formation...!



Not easy to roll out into the clinics (money) it does not fit in their profit plan.

For example it costs them 4 K to culture the DP cells. that would mean they have to sell the procedure for 6-8 K. end result less people interested(less end profit).


their second not so promising method is probably easier, does not require special trained professionals and is easily done for 500 usd (just an example). this way they can sell the procedure for 2-4 K per person. end result much interested people that can afford it. more profit, and repeated procedure per person until the head gets full of hair....

Conclusion: its all about the money they don't give a **** about our hairs..

what can we do about it?
1. Accept the fact that DP culture could take yet again another 5-10 before it hits the market.
2. Find our own solution that consists of DP culture and do it somewhere probably in Asia.

I'm getting a feeling this whole thing was orchestrated by Dr. Nigam to make his procedure look more groundbreaking <sigh> seriously, they like toying with us man!

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 05:10 PM
Can you say who told you that? How would they know what the results were like? Were they a trial patient? or involved in Aderans? or were they just someone who saw a presentation?

Someone who saw the result on a lot of different people and who had no reason to lie, but not someone I know personally or anything.

yeahyeahyeah
02-01-2013, 05:17 PM
You know I went back and re-read the posts that were written the last few days about Aderans to see how this whole thing about no DP in Aderans started. Here's some of them:






I'm getting a feeling this whole thing was orchestrated by Dr. Nigam to make his procedure look more groundbreaking <sigh> seriously, they like toying with us man!

Dr Nigam is a shady HT surgeon, why the **** are you guys taking his word so seriously?

Anyway I always had a feeling Aderans was a waste of time.

My money is on histogen, always has been.

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 05:18 PM
Do you really want that every second user in this forum will attack me??

I mean, the same happend during the "I-love-so-much-Replicel" phase. And the more I backed up my claims and my predictions for their trail results, the more they attacked me. I mean, should I suffer the same fate with the "I-love-so much-Aderans" phase?? For what? For "Being again the scientist of the year" or what? :rolleyes:

I could care less how many people attack me so lets hear it...

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 05:40 PM
And I'm sure we're all tired of seeing it, but just for reference, here is the only photo I'm aware of:

http://www.*************/hair-loss/img/uploaded/2879_image1232.jpg

So whats the problem with this photo. Shedding?

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 05:45 PM
Do you really want that every second user in this forum will attack me??

I mean, the same happend during the "I-love-so-much-Replicel" phase. And the more I backed up my claims and my predictions for their trail results, the more they attacked me. I mean, should I suffer the same fate with the "I-love-so much-Aderans" phase?? For what? For "Being again the scientist of the year" or what? :rolleyes:

And by the way, Replicel is broke. That has nothing to do with science nor does it verify or refute any scientific claim. Broke is just broke.

LMS
02-01-2013, 06:02 PM
Hmm... seems like this thread and a lot of the other cutting edge threads have pretty much degenerated into mental masturbation.

We really don't know shit. We will just have to wait until June or whenever Aderans chooses to give us an update or what not.

534623
02-01-2013, 06:02 PM
I could care less how many people attack me so lets hear it...
You're right - they hate me anyhow ... :D

Anyway - the answer is simple:

During Washenik's presentation - could you see a fully restored tonsure area?
Everything I can see are just some marginal effects around the tonsure transition zones. Period.

My point is - THE main problem/cause of AGA is with such approches simply not solved, because THE main problem for AGA sticks still in the existing/affected hair follicle structure and this problem has nothing to do with "cells" per se. AGA has simply absolutely nothing to do with a "disease" - absolutely nothing. For example...
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19077&stc=1&d=1359766034
These very rare WHITE tiger babies were recently born in Austria.
Why they are white? The tiger stripes in general - where do they come from at all? Why is there such a certain pattern of stripes? Why do AGA patients have such a certain hair loss PATTERN?

Anyway, AGA is basically NOT a stem cells problem per se - Dr. Cotsarelis confirmed this recently. Hair follicle stem cells are still there - even in bald AGA skin. When the "time is ripe", these (stem)cells are simply not prone anymore to produce the necessary progenitor cells for hair growth. And that's THE point:
What exactly is it in general, what tells the cells (skin-region specific!) what they should do or should become and WHEN should they do something at all?
What is it? Exactly this "what-is-it" is not involved in ARI's Ji Gami - insofar, because "what-is-it" is very difficult to reproduce (in the lab or so). In simple words "what-is-it" is something what IS involved with hair transplants and why hair transplants basically work at all. Is all this really so difficult to understand?

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 06:07 PM
You're right - they hate me anyhow ... :D

Anyway - the answer is simple:

During Washenik's presentation - could you see a fully restored tonsure area?
Everything I can see are just some marginal effects around the tonsure transition zones. Period.

What difference does it make if the effect is marginal or not? Are you saying the effect isn't permanent or are you denying any improvement in the photo?

So yeah, I don't get it.

amibald
02-01-2013, 06:08 PM
can't we all just get a gho transplant problem solved anyway?

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 06:09 PM
I mean isn't the effect of Rogaine marginal?

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 06:11 PM
I mean it seems like you are looking at this as a replacement for HT instead of as a replacement for Propecia?

534623
02-01-2013, 06:26 PM
Are you saying the effect isn't permanent or are you denying any improvement in the photo?

There are, in fact, 2 problems involved.

Here I explained the 1st problem …
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=99905&postcount=887

And here is THE main problem explained…
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html
*********************************
“…having raised the prospect of being able to augment follicle size by recruitment, is balanced by Tobin's evidence of movement of dermal cells not only within the follicle, but outside to the dermis. In skin undergoing androgenetic alopecia, there is the possibility that the balance of migration is altered and incontinence of dermal sheath cells to the skin dermis leads to reduction in size of the dermal papilla, and in turn to miniaturization of the follicle structure. If this leakage is the result of signals from a dermal environment unique to this region of skin, then addition of cells by recruitment might only be postponing the inevitable.
*********************************

The paper is from 2003, sure; but Dr. Colin Jahoda, THE top scientist concernig "hair" on this planet (at least in my opinion), remains still correct today concerning this issue. With "leakage", he is talking about the whole stem cells MICROENVIRONMENT, which tells the cells, signaling dependent and -skin-region-specific- what to do and WHEN they should do something or not (anymore). That's still the problem. And the microenvironment is very difficult to understand, to analyze, and finally, to reproduce. Really so difficult to understand? :D

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 06:40 PM
There are, in fact, 2 problems involved.

Here I explained the 1st problem …
http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=99905&postcount=887

And here is THE main problem explained…
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html
*********************************
“…having raised the prospect of being able to augment follicle size by recruitment, is balanced by Tobin's evidence of movement of dermal cells not only within the follicle, but outside to the dermis. In skin undergoing androgenetic alopecia, there is the possibility that the balance of migration is altered and incontinence of dermal sheath cells to the skin dermis leads to reduction in size of the dermal papilla, and in turn to miniaturization of the follicle structure. If this leakage is the result of signals from a dermal environment unique to this region of skin, then addition of cells by recruitment might only be postponing the inevitable.
*********************************

The paper is from 2003, sure; but Dr. Colin Jahoda, THE top scientist concernig "hair" on this planet (at least in my opinion), remains still correct today concerning this issue. With "leakage", he is talking about the whole stem cells MICROENVIRONMENT, which tells the cells, signaling dependent and -skin-region-specific- what to do and WHEN they should do something or not (anymore). That's still the problem. And the microenvironment is very difficult to understand, to analyze, and finally, to reproduce. Really so difficult to understand? :D

Yes, I still don't understand because I see the picture of the guy with improved hair, and if it takes multiple rounds and postpones the inevitable, then why is it not a Propecia replacement?

Thinning87
02-01-2013, 06:45 PM
Ya'll need to chill out and understand that if anything positive comes out it will be in the news or on the websites. Stop spending 5 hour a day in this thread.

I remain cautiously optimistic as there are reputable folks out there who have also been affected by MPB. They are doing a lot of work and investors are pouring good money in this research, which means someone's gotta be on to something.

I know this won't make everyone happy in here after the new wave of skepticism I just read. But I recommend everyone just take a step back and hit the bars tonight.

In the meantime, I suggest buzzing the hair really short. I did this for the first time 4 days ago to see approximately what I will look like when bald. Well, girls dig it. Seriously, I would have never imagined it. And I don't even have a fully symmetric, well shaped skull. But yeah, definitely much better than I thought, I had my hair like Ryan Gosling and I wish I could continue to have it that way but, guess what, as long as I look decent I'm good because as it's been repeated a thousand times looks are not all in a man. I got some compliments which makes me feel good and I'm gonna hit the clubs all weekend to see how many phone numbers I can get with the new look. I am optimistic!

So again chill out folks. Stay calm and carry on. If you are really depressed about the new insights on the forum, go out to the bars tonight and have an intense swim tomorrow. Get off the forum for a few days and cool off everyone. And buzz the hair really short, I feel awesome I accepted my self for what I will look like in 2 years and moved on. I don't have the thought in the back of my mind anymore! I'll take propecia twice a week just in case something will come out, and if it doesn't work **** it I already feel good about what I'll look like!

534623
02-01-2013, 06:51 PM
Yes, I still don't understand because I see the picture of the guy with improved hair, and if it takes multiple rounds [of cell injections] and postpones the inevitable, then why is it not a Propecia replacement?

Sure, in theory YES - with multiple rounds of cell injections and such injections FOREVER. But even so (every 3 or 6 or 12 month cells injections into the balding areas), same as with Propecia:
once the time will come, when not even "postponing the inevitable" will work anymore (if Propecia worked at all for you), because mother nature will be simply stronger. It's simply her intention, so to speak, that you SHOULD be bald in these "unique regions" of the skin - same as those tiger babies I mentioned; they SHOULD have stripes and not prickles or something else instead of.

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 07:03 PM
Sure, in theory YES - with multiple rounds of cell injections and such injections FOREVER. But even so (every 3 or 6 or 12 month cells injections into the balding areas), same as with Propecia:
once the time will come, when not even "postponing the inevitable" will work anymore (if Propecia worked at all for you), because mother nature will be simply stronger. It's simply her intention, so to speak, that you SHOULD be bald in these "unique regions" of the skin - same as those tiger babies I mentioned; they SHOULD have stripes and not prickles or something else instead of.

That 2003 paper is a little thin for me. It's not exactly definitive proof of leakage, and it doesn't really explain what Aderans has been up to in the decade since then, but at least I understand you're argument now so thanks.

534623
02-01-2013, 07:05 PM
That 2003 paper is a little thin for me. It's not exactly definitive proof of leakage, and it doesn't really explain what Aderans has been up to in the decade since then, but at least I understand you're argument now so thanks.
How many papers do you want to study, which CONFIRM Jahoda's 2003-theory? Tell me a number ...

534623
02-01-2013, 07:17 PM
How many papers do you want to study, which CONFIRM Jahoda's 2003-theory? Tell me a number ...

How about the following one - it's an easy to understand one (I think)...
************************************
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijbm/2012/926059/

Abstract
Stem cell-based therapies offer tremendous potential for skin regeneration following injury and disease. Functional stem cell units have been described throughout all layers of human skin and the collective physical and chemical microenvironmental cues that enable this regenerative potential are known as the stem cell niche. Stem cells in the hair follicle bulge, interfollicular epidermis, dermal papillae, and perivascular space have been closely investigated as model systems for niche-driven regeneration. These studies suggest that stem cell strategies for skin engineering must consider the intricate molecular and biologic features of these niches. Innovative biomaterial systems that successfully recapitulate these microenvironments will facilitate progenitor cell-mediated skin repair and regeneration.
[...]
These microenvironmental cues dictate stem cell function in both health and disease states. Early progress has been made in elucidating skin compartment-specific niches but a detailed understanding of their molecular and structural biology remains incomplete. Biomaterials will continue to play a central role in regenerative medicine by providing the framework upon which to reconstruct functional niches. Future challenges include the characterization and recapitulation of these dynamic environments using engineered constructs to maximize the therapeutic potential of stem cells.
************************************

"compartment-specific niches" - that's the key point. These are extremely difficult to reproduce. You can them at least "duplicate" (bisectioning of hair follicles etc), but - again, difficult to get 1000s of these necessary "compartment-specific niches". Without them - cells do not really know what they should do (that's the simple version). It's like a snake without a head. With ARI's Ji Gami, the snakes even with a head is still there, but the snake's head are "wrong programmed" - they simply work site-specific (as planned by mother nature). You can feed the worms (miniaturized follicles) with lots of cells, and indeed, the worms will get fatter - but they will always be worms, and not anacondas.

clarence
02-01-2013, 07:17 PM
can't we all just get a gho transplant problem solved anyway?

Solve one problem, get another.

Well, actually I've long toyed with the idea of transplanting some of the hairs from non-permanent zones of the donor area, so that the transplanted hairs would eventually thin out similarly those surrounding them, and I'd always look perfectly au naturelle even if I went balder. No need for ji gami and histogen then, eh?

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 07:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8&feature=player_detailpage#t=570s


yeah, but there is just one giant freaking problem with all those papers. Go back and look at the video. The chart shows hair counts for Ji Gami increasing as the length of time from the procedure increases. In fact it doesn't even hit 60% response until week 54 with the 2011 protocol, and the hair counts are not less at 54 weeks. They are more. The only difference in the 2013 protocol is the response rate starts out much higher which indicates the use of the genetic pre-test but the numbers improve with time in both sets of data.

So when exactly does it stop working because five years sounds like a long time to have more hair to me?

garethbale
02-01-2013, 07:27 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but how does everyone know that Aderans isn't using DP cells and what are the implications of this? Has Aderans admitted as much themselves?

I've been looking at some of the comments and I'm not sure what to make of all this. Fortunately I'm still only around a Norwood 1.5/2 and have been receding quite slowly, but I can't style my hairline how I'd like to and I hate that. Hopefully this (or Histogen or Replicel) will come out and enable me to fill in my hairline.

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 07:29 PM
And then why would the value proposition slide say this...

"Procedural treatment for long term personalized solution rather than ongoing maintenance therapy"

garethbale
02-01-2013, 07:32 PM
And then why would the value proposition slide say this...

"Procedural treatment for long term personalized solution rather than ongoing maintenance therapy"

Are you addressing me?

So are they gonna market this as a personal topical rather than in a clinical environment? That is pathetic if true...

StinkySmurf
02-01-2013, 07:41 PM
Are you addressing me?

So are they gonna market this as a personal topical rather than in a clinical environment? That is pathetic if true...

No, I was addressing someone else. It's not a topical. It's a procedure definitely that you will need to go to a clinic for.

StinkySmurf
02-02-2013, 09:58 AM
Hey IM, thanks again for answering my questions yesterday. It was a long day, but that was the info I needed so thanks.

534623
02-02-2013, 10:16 AM
Hey IM, thanks again for answering my questions yesterday. It was a long day, but that was the info I needed so thanks.
No problem - but actually it was YOU who seriously answered my questions concerning my own (hairloss)problem - here they are:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=101714&postcount=935

YOU helped me with your transcripts. English is NOT my first language. Therefore I had doubts whether I get the bullshit right Washenik is talking about in his presentation. In other words, I couldn't really believe what I hear - after 10 years "Aderans Research Institute"... I mean, ARI's new approach is like a d&#233;j&#224;-vu of events 10 years ago.

StinkySmurf
02-02-2013, 10:20 AM
No problem - but actually it was YOU who seriously answered my questions concerning my own (hairloss)problem - here they are:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=101714&postcount=935

YOU helped me with your transcripts. English is NOT my first language. Therefore I had doubts whether I get the bullshit right Washenik is talking about in his presentation. In other words, I couldn't really believe what I hear ...

Yes, this is what I thought when you kept asking. Cheers mate :)

StinkySmurf
02-02-2013, 10:48 AM
Therefore I had doubts whether I get the bullshit right Washenik is talking about in his presentation. In other words, I couldn't really believe what I hear - after 10 years "Aderans Research Institute"... I mean, ARI's new approach is like a d&#233;j&#224;-vu of events 10 years ago.

Ahh... I didn't realize that was actually your photo. I thought it was just a link until this very moment so yes, I can see how you are right on the fence with ARI. Honestly, if I was a NW6 or NW7 I would not have big hopes, at least not yet, but you might be right on the line if what you're saying is correct about the tonsure area.

I do think when I look at the ARI photos of the bald spot up close I see improvement in the tonsure area even though it's not as much although they themselves are basically saying the improvement gets worse towards the center.

I still think the jury is out on getting multiple rounds of injections and if that improves the tonsure area further for people with a higher Norwood level, and thats how they ended their presentation so...

StinkySmurf
02-02-2013, 10:54 AM
Oh man! I thought you were the blonde guy!!! Thats so funny!

Thinning87
02-02-2013, 06:24 PM
Guys I know you're all waiting for my update so here it is: I went out to the bars for the first time tonight with an almost fully shaved head (I buzzed my hair for the first time very very short 4 days ago, got some positive feedback, but promised I would go out and try the new look at a club for you).

Well here is my update: I got way too drunk from the beginning so I wasn't able to really talk to any girls because I was so wasted. However I remember at the beginning some girls were looking with interest.

Do not fear, I am going out again tonight and I will update you with a new post tomorrow.

Desmond84
02-02-2013, 08:13 PM
Thinning u r awesome brother!

Keep up the alpha male attitude :) I'm thinking about shaving my head to see how I look sometimes this year as well!

I admire ur courage and looking forward to reading ur updates!

clarence
02-04-2013, 08:23 AM
Sure, in theory YES - with multiple rounds of cell injections and such injections FOREVER. But even so (every 3 or 6 or 12 month cells injections into the balding areas), same as with Propecia:
once the time will come, when not even "postponing the inevitable" will work anymore (if Propecia worked at all for you), because mother nature will be simply stronger.

Mother nature may respond unfavorably to taming, but in the end I think it's just boils down to whether you rather like a combover or a castration. Our grandfathers would have been happy to know anything in between.

UK_
02-04-2013, 09:06 PM
Shaving ur head is pointless if you're under 6ft and skinny as phuck.

We need to create A.I super-intelligent sentient beings that can re-programme themselves at the speed of light, only then, with this access to God-like wisdom, can hair loss be cured. However, we may be informed by these Gods that the cure for hair loss lies within.

NotDyingBald
02-05-2013, 05:41 AM
Sometimes i think we should start to find a way to transform uns into mice, cause there´s a lot of hairloss cure for them! :)