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Joker
10-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Also Note: The MO site is one of the last centers still recruiting. However, MO is not listed as a site for the most recent Phase 2 study listed on clinicaltrials.gov. Is this just a mistake? Or are they recruiting for another study?

The speculation regarding this company is endless...

I just hope - one day - we get some good news...

:/

Desmond84
10-31-2012, 02:51 AM
Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to this game. Just out of curiosity, has there been any recent news conferences/ releases regarding Phase II?

The only presentation I can find is Dr. Washnik's news conference back in July 2010 and he only touches on preclinical trials and some minor info about results in Phase I.

I'm dying to find out what they've been seeing in their recent trials :)

534623
10-31-2012, 08:56 AM
I'm dying to find out what they've been seeing in their recent trials :)

I'm pretty sure that they themselves still try the same ... :D

BoSox
11-01-2012, 03:56 AM
When is Aderans going to phase 3?

Desmond84
11-01-2012, 03:59 AM
Guessing from their timeline it should be March 2013. But some ppl reckon they've already started!

JJacobs152
11-01-2012, 06:15 AM
Guessing from their timeline it should be March 2013. But some ppl reckon they've already started!

Could you give me the highlights about Aderans, please? I put all my eggs into the basket with Histogen, and haven't been following Aderans. Their press releases on the site are basically nil of information.

Desmond84
11-01-2012, 06:22 AM
Could you give me the highlights about Aderans, please? I put all my eggs into the basket with Histogen, and haven't been following Aderans. Their press releases on the site are basically nil of information.

The news has been very promising indeed.

Aderans cell-based hair regeneration (if it works) will be making your hairs resistant to DHT and on top of that produce some regrowth (approx. 13 hairs/cm2).

The last real update we had was at the end of Phase 1 trial back in July 2010. Here's their presentation:

http://www.aderansresearch.com/presentation/

Enjoy ;)

JJacobs152
11-01-2012, 06:28 AM
Wow, small small world. This is not more than 10 minutes from where I live. According to GoogleMaps they're only 9.1miles away from where I live.

JJacobs152
11-01-2012, 06:30 AM
Interesting as well that Daisy Fuentes has also doing work with Aderans to supply wigs.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/daisy-fuentes-announces-partnership-with-aderans-hair-goods-for-the-launch-of-new-wig-collection-174183721.html

Desmond84
11-01-2012, 06:39 AM
Wow, small small world. This is not more than 10 minutes from where I live. According to GoogleMaps they're only 9.1miles away from where I live.

Dude if I was you, I'd gather a small army. Get in there and take everyone hostage until they let you all out with a full head of hair! :)

JJacobs152
11-01-2012, 06:43 AM
Dude if I was you, I'd gather a small army. Get in there and take everyone hostage until they let you all out with a full head of hair! :)

Tell me about it. Wonder if I could stop by there and get some info and report back. :cool:

Artista
11-01-2012, 07:11 AM
I had never watched the full 2010 A.R.I. presentation until now, thanks Desmond.
The video 'regenerates' my optimism for the NEAR future of us, the hair loss SUFFERERS.
I believe it very well just may be the "Next big GAME CHANGING platform" as it has been defined. I would not expect it to produce a juvenile head of hair but that it would do far greater ,percentage wise, than what is available today.
Personally and realistically , all i want to achieve is an IMPROVEMENT to my scalp. I would never expect to once again have the head of hair that i did at the age of 19. Although,, that would be an amazing experience.

JJacobs152
11-01-2012, 07:34 AM
Being able to modify and fabricate DHT resistant follicles would surely cause a hump in the HT business. Majority of patients suffering from androgenetic alopecia wouldn't need to resort to HT, and could solely be used for those individuals who were involved in a traumatic accident of some sort.

Also, secondly, if they could engineer it to make the receptors resistant at the level of the prostate - would completely solve this issue. Prostate cancer is the #1 cancer in males, but the 2nd leading cause of death in males, followed by lung cancer.

Desmond84
11-01-2012, 03:26 PM
It's 1st of November and Histogen has provided us with a third round of updates with some amazing results. Aderans really needs to give us an update soon! I mean whats with all the secrecy!!!

JJacobs152
11-01-2012, 03:53 PM
It's 1st of November and Histogen has provided us with a third round of updates with some amazing results. Aderans really needs to give us an update soon! I mean whats with all the secrecy!!!

Btw, I spoke to them this morning after noticing they're practically located on the same exit as to where I live. They're conducting studies all across the US. They plan on releasing a new study group in downtown Atlanta, GA. Person said to check this site for other studies, as they're always looking for candidates.


www.clinicaltrials.gov

Joker
11-01-2012, 08:59 PM
JJ, during your conversation did they mention what Phase they were recruiting for? That would really be helpful if you could find out somehow. Thanks for taking the iniative to help look into this!

Artista
11-02-2012, 06:57 AM
Joker, it shows to be Phase 2
I just called the Florida locale ,they have filled their enrollment quota . She also said that all the other Radiant Research, Inc locales have too .

Joker
11-02-2012, 10:47 AM
Hi Artista, I know that the clinical trials page says Phase 2. Not sure if you've been following the thread (don't blame you if you haven't), but some sites have stated over the phone that they were actually recruiting for Phase 3. I'm just trying to reconcile these differing pieces of information. For example, when I called in Florida they told me it was a Phase 3 trial.

JJacobs152
11-02-2012, 04:56 PM
JJ, during your conversation did they mention what Phase they were recruiting for? That would really be helpful if you could find out somehow. Thanks for taking the iniative to help look into this!

I unfortunately didn't ask that, as it slipped my mind. I'd like to join but I'm sure many probably wouldn't qualify as it would require John Doe to not have taken Rogaine in the past 6 months or fin in the past year. In addition, you can't use these treatments while getting the treatment. To add to the insult, if this were a double blind study, and you became part of the control group that's additional time without the supportive treatments, and would result in further hair loss.

JJacobs152
11-02-2012, 05:03 PM
PS: Winston, can Aderans have its own sub forum like Histogen? :D

Desmond84
11-03-2012, 07:24 AM
Hey guys, I've been thinking a lot about how Adernas works and had a few questions that some of you guys might know the answer to:

So far, what I've understood is Aderans takes samples of Dermal & Epidemal cells from the back of your scalp, replicates them (by millions) and injects them in the frontal scalp. Now, here's my questions:

"How do they know that DHT receptors that get expressed on hair follicles in ppl with AGA are only present on these specific cells and not on other parts of the follicular unit? In other words, will the new follicles become DHT-Resistant in true sense of the word?"

"Also, another question is when they inject these cells into your scalp, you already have dermal and epidermal cells surrounding that follicle, so what makes the old ones disappear and the ones Aderans produced replace them?"

It just doesnt make sense to me, so I thought I would share...

Joker
11-03-2012, 06:29 PM
Alright everyone, so since no one in the media seems to be helping us out in getting info from Aderans, I did a little bit more research tonight.

I compared the clinical trial arms listed on clinicaltrials.gov with the ones listed in their June 2010 powerpoint. As a result, I learned some interesting things.

First Phase 2 Test

CA-2011 Ji Gami (enrollment 21, both male and female)

PP date: The beginning of 2010 thru the beginning of 2012.
CT.gov date: October 2008 thru June 2010.

This trial had two variables: single injections vs. repeat injections; and epidermal + dermal cells vs. dermal cells. It injected cells the day after they were harvested from culture.

Although it is hard to determine how these variables contribute to the aggregated data on the powerpoint, overall this trial had about a 50% response rate.

Second Phase 2 Test

CA-2062 Ji Gami DO (enrollment 21, both male and female)

PP date: unknown
CT.gov date: June 2009 thru September 2010.

This trial tested only Dermal cells, similar to the old Intercytex method.

Interestingly, this trial peaked at a 65% response rate, which perhaps signifies that Dermal cells alone are more potent than the Epidermal + Dermal cells used in the first trial. This is difficult to determine, however, because the first trial tested two variables (including strictly Dermal cells) and we can't be certain which independent variables led to higher/lower response rates.

Third Phase 2 Test

CA-2013 Ji Gami (enrollment 33, both male and female)

PP date: unkown
CT.gov date: January 2009 thru August 2010

This trial was very similar to the first trial but did not include injections of Ji Gami DO (purely Dermal cells) and it re-injected the cells on the day the cells harvested from culture, not the day after they were harvested. This appears to have improved the potency of the cells, because efficacy maxed out at 70%.

Joker
11-03-2012, 06:37 PM
The (potentially) good news:

All of these tests apparently fall into the first arm of Ji Gami tests listed on the PowerPoint, so Ji Gami C, Ji Gami N, Ji Gami NDO, and Ji Gami CN all have the ability to improve on the results.

The later trials have VASTLY increased their sample sizes as well. Enrollments have gone from 20s to 40s to 100 in Ji Gami CN. Maybe this indicates confidence?

The (potentially) bad news:

The differences between each one of the portfolio products isn't that much different. Some they use two cells, others just one cell. Some they wait a day, others they don't. It's basically one technology with different best practices. Therefore results might not be able to improve THAT much from the initial phases.

Other variables currently being tested include:

Whether or not plucking hairs from the excised scalp will improve the potency of the cells in culture.

Artista
11-03-2012, 08:24 PM
Joker, the time and attention that you have taken is very much appreciated. Thank you so much. It is all so very interesting to read.
I feel very positive about ARI ..the concept is amazing to begin with.

Desmond84
11-04-2012, 03:03 AM
Joker, you're amazing brother! That's one hell of investigative research put together. Thanks for sharing.

Btw guys, do you know how large was the treatment areas? (crown, temples, vertex, or all of the above?)

I've read some comments by some guy that claims he was part of the 2010 trials , he goes by the name "Bald Half-truth" and he reckons the treatment was only on a small part of his crown. It thickened up a little bit, but it mostly halted his hairloss!

Desmond84
11-04-2012, 04:05 AM
Feb 2013 update will be very interesting indeed!

If its positive, I will stop spending money on everything and start saving until this treatment comes out. I'll be one of the first to run through their door asking for some shots :)

UK_
11-04-2012, 04:42 AM
Yeah Joker - you're a credit to this forum with all the asking around and researching you do.

Alf
11-04-2012, 06:50 AM
I've read some comments by some guy that claims he was part of the 2010 trials , he goes by the name "Bald Half-truth" and he reckons the treatment was only on a small part of his crown. It thickened up a little bit, but it mostly halted his hairloss!

Spanish Dude.
I never had any TOTALLY bald areas... just thinning.
There are two test areas on my scalp.
Both are showing the same results.
The researchers don't tell me the results. I'm just going by my own observations with a mirror and a magnifying glass.
One small area originally had 20 hairs. Now it has 25.
That's actually a 25% increase.
I also notice these very small colorless hairs created (like peach fuzz) that I'm not counting yet. Hopefully they'll develop too.
My name was revealed on ANOTHER website. So I won't be talking about techniques at all... just results. And pix are strictly forbidden.
http://www.*************/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-62706-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html

If he is telling the truth, that is in my opinion great news. 5 new hairs are obvious not enough, but I hope you get more hairs if you take the treatment multiple times, that is not unreasonable? I'm asking you because I have no medical background I just can't see why there should be a limit for how much hair you can grow when you are injecting new cells. And even if there is a low maximum number of new hairs it would probably be higher than the 2010 results from one guy(halfbadtruth)?

Desmond84
11-04-2012, 03:00 PM
Spanish Dude.
I never had any TOTALLY bald areas... just thinning.
There are two test areas on my scalp.
Both are showing the same results.
The researchers don't tell me the results. I'm just going by my own observations with a mirror and a magnifying glass.
One small area originally had 20 hairs. Now it has 25.
That's actually a 25% increase.
I also notice these very small colorless hairs created (like peach fuzz) that I'm not counting yet. Hopefully they'll develop too.
My name was revealed on ANOTHER website. So I won't be talking about techniques at all... just results. And pix are strictly forbidden.
http://www.*************/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-62706-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html

If he is telling the truth, that is in my opinion great news. 5 new hairs are obvious not enough, but I hope you get more hairs if you take the treatment multiple times, that is not unreasonable? I'm asking you because I have no medical background I just can't see why there should be a limit for how much hair you can grow when you are injecting new cells. And even if there is a low maximum number of new hairs it would probably be higher than the 2010 results from one guy(halfbadtruth)?

Oh wow! another trial subject!!!

I just wish Aderans kept us in the loop a little bit more. We'd be so much happier knowing something is so close to coming out :(

Joker
11-04-2012, 03:18 PM
Real quick, that's the same trial subject. Spanish Dude is the user he was talking to, not the name of the trialist. BaldHalf-Truth is still the only person in the trial we have heard from.

Desmond84
11-04-2012, 03:24 PM
Real quick, that's the same trial subject. Spanish Dude is the user he was talking to, not the name of the trialist. BaldHalf-Truth is still the only person in the trial we have heard from.

Oh really! dammit

Guys does anyone know how to contact Aderans to ask when's their next update?

We should ask Spencer to try and suss things out... they would probably give him a bit more info

JJacobs152
11-04-2012, 03:38 PM
Oh really! dammit

Guys does anyone know how to contact Aderans to ask when's their next update?

We should ask Spencer to try and suss things out... they would probably give him a bit more info

Their contact # is 678.213.1919

Buy The Ticket
11-04-2012, 03:57 PM
Hi guys, what's a realistic ETA on Aderans?

Or is that completely up in the air/anyone's guess at this point?
Thanks.

Breaking Bald
11-04-2012, 04:24 PM
Think it's anyone's guess really. I wish these companies would keep us informed. It is incredibly frustrating!

Joker
11-04-2012, 04:31 PM
Unfortunately, Aderans doesn't seem very forthcoming with information. Their last update was more than 7 months ago. At the beginning of this year someone on the forums said Spencer planned to interview a representative from Aderans, but it looks like that never materialized. Hopefully Spencer can try again or address this on his show...

Joker
11-04-2012, 04:41 PM
Also, in terms of an ETA - it really is up in the air. There are way too many unknown variables to hazard a respectable guess. At this point, it's still possible that the treatment never makes it to market at all.

The absolute best case scenario is the one laid out in the June 2010 powerpoint of Q2 2014. That, sadly, will almost definitely not happen.

However, if Aderans IS recruiting for Phase 3 and plans to start testing in 2013, then late 2014 MIGHT be a possibility.

Then again, if Aderans has only recruited for more Phase 2 trials, we are again left with no indication of how long we have to wait.

Remember, there was a time when Aderans said Phase 2 would be completed by the end of 2009. Then there was a time they said it would be completed by the beginning 2012. Etc. Timelines are really malleable in this industry.

JJacobs152
11-04-2012, 05:27 PM
Well maybe with the news Histogen released Aderans is restructuring their R/D. Nothing wrong with getting a larger sample size for their study. The larger the sample size, the better idea we get of how effective this treatment is. Having a study of n=10 with 80% showing improvement looks lol compared to a study of n=1,000 with 50% showing improvements.

I think it will also help them getting investors with larger sample size, see how their product reacts with people of different backgrounds, etc etc. What do you guys think?

Joker
11-04-2012, 06:07 PM
Hi, JJ. I definitely agree that larger sample sizes are more accurate and can potentially improve capital procurement.

But with regard to Aderans, I'm confused about their sources of funding...

Aderans Research Institute is backed by Aderans, a large, multi-national corporation. Thus far, it appears as though they have been funded ONLY by Aderans - this makes sense because why would a hair company want to dilute their ownership of a potentially game-changing technology?

Having said that, Vern Liebmann was in an article recently that stated he attended various conferences for investment purposes. Also, Ken Washenik recently presented at "Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa," which is one of the leading investment and partnering events in the regenerative medicine space.

Like everything else about this company, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information about their financial backing.

JJacobs152
11-04-2012, 06:29 PM
Hi, JJ. I definitely agree that larger sample sizes are more accurate and can potentially improve capital procurement.

But with regard to Aderans, I'm confused about their sources of funding...

Aderans Research Institute is backed by Aderans, a large, multi-national corporation. Thus far, it appears as though they have been funded ONLY by Aderans - this makes sense because why would a hair company want to dilute their ownership of a potentially game-changing technology?

Having said that, Vern Liebmann was in an article recently that stated he attended various conferences for investment purposes. Also, Ken Washenik recently presented at "Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa," which is one of the leading investment and partnering events in the regenerative medicine space.

Like everything else about this company, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information about their financial backing.

Yeah, that's understandable. I guess being this premature in the game, financial spread sheets probably don't mean much to potential investors, compared to the potential growth and demand for the product.

I mean, if I came to you to invest in my company, would you be more interested in my current bank roll of what I have to offer to society, how I'll be able to achieve those goals, etc etc. I guess if Aderans publicly posted these things, would be nice.

Lol, I guess we really shouldn't have to worry about their finances especially since they can go to the corner ATM and purchase Bosley for $163 million.

http://eon.businesswire.com/news/eon/20120716005438/en/hair-replacement/bosley/aderans

Joker
11-04-2012, 08:50 PM
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/nov/03/making-case-for-stem-cell-treatment/?print&page=all

A VERY short (and poorly researched) article that talks about the Aderans presentation at Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa.

The only interesting part is that apparently they are seeing the regeneration of dormant follicles, not necessarily the creation of entirely new follicles.

Pro:

Direction will not be an issue. The results will be very natural.

Con:

Creating new follicles has "unlimited" potential. Regenerating existing follicles is dependent on how many existing follicles can be brought back to life. We don't know if all follicles are able to be resurrected by this process or if some can never be turned back on. The answer to this question speaks to compoundability (or lack thereof).

Man, this company has me going crazy right now with all these tiny tidbits of contradictory information. De Novo growth or rejuvenation? Backed by Aderans or seeking outside investment? Phase 2 or Phase 3? Is the Phase 2 expansion a reflection of good results seeking optimization or poor results seeking massive improvements? Does it prevent further hair loss or only grow new hair? Is the 2014 timeline still valid? Will it be released only in the US or earlier in foreign jurisdictions? Etc, etc, etc, etc.

Alf
11-05-2012, 01:41 AM
Pro:

Direction will not be an issue. The results will be very natural.
.

Thanks, but didn't Aderans struggle with direction in phase 1 or am i remembering wrong?

Desmond84
11-05-2012, 01:56 AM
To be honest I will cry if aderans doesn't make it. Not because of being bald sucks, but i have gotten my hopes so much up.

Touche :(

10char

Pate
11-05-2012, 02:54 AM
Hi, JJ. I definitely agree that larger sample sizes are more accurate and can potentially improve capital procurement.

But with regard to Aderans, I'm confused about their sources of funding...

Aderans Research Institute is backed by Aderans, a large, multi-national corporation. Thus far, it appears as though they have been funded ONLY by Aderans - this makes sense because why would a hair company want to dilute their ownership of a potentially game-changing technology?

Having said that, Vern Liebmann was in an article recently that stated he attended various conferences for investment purposes. Also, Ken Washenik recently presented at "Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa," which is one of the leading investment and partnering events in the regenerative medicine space.

Like everything else about this company, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information about their financial backing.

Even multi-nationals seek investors for big projects, to try and spread the risk. Given that Aderans will have to spend anywhere from $200M to maybe $500M by the time they're done to commercialise this technology, I'm not at all surprised they are seeking investors.

And let's face it, if it works, ARI won't care if they've only got a 50% stake. 50% of the cash an effective baldness treatment is going to make will still be enough to set the entire lot of them up for life.

The directional thing is interesting, because rumours and photographic evidence have definitely suggested ARI are having problems with directional growth. This in turn definitely suggests de novo growth and not rejuventation (or at least not exclusively rejuvenation).

This may have something to do with what Replicel saw in their mouse models - when there were no existing follicles around they grew de novo follicles, but when there were existing follicles, the cells migrated into the follicles and rejuvenated them. Unfortunately, of course, Replicel's results when they transferred from mice to humans were less than impressive to say the least...

gmonasco
11-05-2012, 01:06 PM
Aderans Research Institute is backed by Aderans, a large, multi-national corporation. Thus far, it appears as though they have been funded ONLY by Aderans - this makes sense because why would a hair company want to dilute their ownership of a potentially game-changing technology?

Not all investments involve taking an ownership share in the company you're investing in. There are other forms of investment.

Joker
11-05-2012, 02:17 PM
That's a good point, gmonasco. I didn't think of it that way, but it's certainly possible.

Also, Pate: You're definitely right about the direction thing, which is what makes this so confusing. Some indications point to no direction problems, while others point to direction problems. I wonder if whether or not follicles are created de novo depends on the degree of hair loss?

Hopefully Aderans has been keeping close tabs on the answers to these questions and feels like sharing soon.... ugh, the wait is so frustrating! Mostly because we're never surprised with truly good news... :(

JJacobs152
11-05-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm actually contemplating on sending this link to them via email. Would be nice if somebody from the company registered on the forum, and gave us updates. :D

UK Boy
11-05-2012, 04:39 PM
I don't get this...Aderans were due to present at the ISHRS event which has now been and gone right? So did they cancel and not present? Cos why else hasn't their presentation been released?

This is where I get a bit frustrated with Spencer, I mean this is his job, why wasn't he at the ISHRS? Surely he has enough contacts to get an invite? It seems from the live shows as if he just gave up instead and decided to promote FUE and f***ing head razors! If he has that guy selling those things on the show again I'll stop listening!

Dan26
11-05-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't get this...Aderans were due to present at the ISHRS event which has now been and gone right? So did they cancel and not present? Cos why else hasn't their presentation been released?

This is where I get a bit frustrated with Spencer, I mean this is his job, why wasn't he at the ISHRS? Surely he has enough contacts to get an invite? It seems from the live shows as if he just gave up instead and decided to promote FUE and f***ing head razors! If he has that guy selling those things on the show again I'll stop listening!

Next ISHRS myself and a small army of balding man are breaking in bank-robber style, holding everyone hostage and shaving their heads. Let me know if you want in.

JJacobs152
11-05-2012, 05:52 PM
Dan & Desmond...any suggestions? Re-measuring and making my own capsules isn't an option. While studying for the boards, don't have a few hours to devout to do this. Should I just suck it up and take 1mg. Would it be bad, if jumped down to 0.5mg next month?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10201

hellouser
11-05-2012, 09:55 PM
This is where I get a bit frustrated with Spencer, I mean this is his job, why wasn't he at the ISHRS? Surely he has enough contacts to get an invite? It seems from the live shows as if he just gave up instead and decided to promote FUE and f***ing head razors! If he has that guy selling those things on the show again I'll stop listening!

I'm going to agree PARTIALLY. Spencer should get some kind of VIP pass for these kinds of events, he's basically an ambassador to the male balding community with a fairly active community in the forum. However, it would cost him some cash in airfare and accommodations so I wonder if its worthwhile for him to do so. However, I would like to see some kind of forum presence from Spencer and answer some simple questions like this; why couldnt he make it to the ISHRS? He'd definitely create some buzz and generate a little bit of traffic if he kept the public up to date on the event.

The Alchemist
11-05-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm going to agree PARTIALLY. Spencer should get some kind of VIP pass for these kinds of events, he's basically an ambassador to the male balding community with a fairly active community in the forum. However, it would cost him some cash in airfare and accommodations so I wonder if its worthwhile for him to do so. However, I would like to see some kind of forum presence from Spencer and answer some simple questions like this; why couldnt he make it to the ISHRS? He'd definitely create some buzz and generate a little bit of traffic if he kept the public up to date on the event.

I absolutely agree with you. I think that with the amount of business that Spencer drives for these hair transplant docs, he should be comp'd the airfare and hotel. The guys is a major media outlet for these docs. Get him in there!

Desmond84
11-06-2012, 01:45 AM
Dan & Desmond...any suggestions? Re-measuring and making my own capsules isn't an option. While studying for the boards, don't have a few hours to devout to do this. Should I just suck it up and take 1mg. Would it be bad, if jumped down to 0.5mg next month?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10201

Hey JJ,

If you really want to do it the easy way, take 0.25mg (a QUARTER) every other day just to see how you feel on it. The trouble is if go on 1 mg daily and you get sides, it will take around 2 weeks for them to subside, making it very difficult to focus on your exams. Don;t worry about dissolving it and stuff, just cut it in quarters and take it every other day. That should take your mind off your hair and hopefully slow down the onset of sides if its going to happen.

Hope thats helpful.

Goodluck with your exams brother! :)

Desmond84
11-06-2012, 01:48 AM
I absolutely agree with you. I think that with the amount of business that Spencer drives for these hair transplant docs, he should be comp'd the airfare and hotel. The guys is a major media outlet for these docs. Get him in there!

So true and so disappointing :(

To be honest though, if they were presenting anything exciting, they would have released it to the media within hours of presenting it @ ISHRS just like Histogen did.

UK Boy
11-06-2012, 03:53 PM
I can't help thinking about the reports from a couple of people who contacted the Aderans clinical trial sites and were told that they were recruiting for phase III. I know that there was a lot of speculation over this but the more I think about it I can't get over the fact that there is no reason for those clinical test sites to lie.

They are independant clinical testing sites, they aren't owned by Aderans, they get nothing for lying about the progress of trials, plus even if Aderans did own them what would be the point in lying to potential test subjects?

So then there's the idea that the people just got the facts wrong or were confused. I don't think this is likely, their business is carrying out clinical trials, it would come across as unprofessional and deter clients if they had uninformed staff giving out incorrect information. Also I remember reading that one woman was very specific - she actually said something like "Yes, it's for phase III, the last phase before the product goes to market".

So the final consideration is whether or not the person posting the information was lying - I can't believe that a user of this forum would want to do that to the other forum users, it would just be mean! Also I believe one of the people was you wasn't it Desmond? and from what I've read of your posts you seem very sensible and informed.

They aren't expected to finished phase II til end of Q1 2013 but this was a pre-screening wasn't it? They could just be getting people ready and not actually starting the trial yet and therefore they haven't made an announcement. Also I presume that Aderans timeframe for the treatment process is much like Replicel - they take the sample of follicals from the patient and then have to culture it for 3 months before injecting the cells. So they could've recruited subjects and be getting them ready to take the sample at the end of the year, culture it over the first 3 months of 2013 and then they'll be ready to start the new trial properly as the phase II ends. I know I'm majorly speculating now but I'm just trying to think about how they might have indeed recruited for phase III but not felt the need to announce it yet.

So anywayz I just wanted to say all this cos it's been going round and round in my head, really wish we hada got some confirmation from Aderans following their presentation at ISHRS. Like Desmond said though, I'm sure if there was anything really good to say they woulda said it to everyone by now. So I just don't know! It's doing my head in!

Joker
11-07-2012, 02:37 PM
Hey UK, I totally sympathize. I know I get really worked up over every small shred of hope that we're able to dig up. I know that I wasn't lying, and I'm confident that hellouser wasn't lying either. Still, I'd say the chance that the people on the phone made a mistake is pretty high. I say that because usually when it looks like we're about to get good news, we get the exact opposite.... and I can't bring myself to believe that Aderans is actually starting Phase 3. We unfortunately never get news like that in the hair loss industry...

Hopefully more people call and more people ask Spencer to help us get a concrete answer to stop all the speculation.

gmonasco
11-07-2012, 02:43 PM
I can't help thinking about the reports from a couple of people who contacted the Aderans clinical trial sites and were told that they were recruiting for phase III. I know that there was a lot of speculation over this but the more I think about it I can't get over the fact that there is no reason for those clinical test sites to lie.

It can take quite a while to set up a proper Phase III trial (which typically requires screening thousands of prospective participants), so you don't necessarily wait until Phase II is complete before you start the preparations for Phase III. In some cases, companies start the preparatory work for Phase III before they even know for sure that there is going to be a Phase III.

hellouser
11-07-2012, 03:17 PM
Hey UK, I totally sympathize. I know I get really worked up over every small shred of hope that we're able to dig up. I know that I wasn't lying, and I'm confident that hellouser wasn't lying either. Still, I'd say the chance that the people on the phone made a mistake is pretty high. I say that because usually when it looks like we're about to get good news, we get the exact opposite.... and I can't bring myself to believe that Aderans is actually starting Phase 3. We unfortunately never get news like that in the hair loss industry...

Hopefully more people call and more people ask Spencer to help us get a concrete answer to stop all the speculation.

LOL, I really gotta laugh at the assumption that I was lying. As someone who's going through MPB, what would I have to gain if I lied about spreading optimism or repeating what I was told when I called Aderans directly?

This forum is full of paranoia.

Joker
11-07-2012, 05:25 PM
Lol, hellouser. You know us balding guys are all paranoid!! We can't help it!!

Let's all just hope for some good news soon.

hellouser
11-07-2012, 09:30 PM
Lol, hellouser. You know us balding guys are all paranoid!! We can't help it!!

Let's all just hope for some good news soon.

Well, noones stopping you guys from making the call to Aderans and talking to them yourselves. I called from Canada and spoke for about 10-15 minutes with a rep of some sort (don't remember now, but she sounded cute...).

Doesn't matter, from the info I was given and the info thats available online and them going into Phase III by around February, they seem to be right on track with their 2014 Q1 commercial product release date... this is of course if they don't hit any roadblocks over the next 1 - 1.5 years. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping they DO hit that timeline. In the meantime, I'm sticking to RU/Minox/Nizoral and gonna add Cetirizine to my regimen... hopefully I'm lucky and regrow my hairline and omit the need for a treatment with Gho.

Joker
11-08-2012, 10:07 AM
Hellouser - I understand your opinion, just pointing out that I called TWICE!

yeahyeahyeah
11-08-2012, 10:18 AM
Well, noones stopping you guys from making the call to Aderans and talking to them yourselves. I called from Canada and spoke for about 10-15 minutes with a rep of some sort (don't remember now, but she sounded cute...).

Doesn't matter, from the info I was given and the info thats available online and them going into Phase III by around February, they seem to be right on track with their 2014 Q1 commercial product release date... this is of course if they don't hit any roadblocks over the next 1 - 1.5 years. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping they DO hit that timeline. In the meantime, I'm sticking to RU/Minox/Nizoral and gonna add Cetirizine to my regimen... hopefully I'm lucky and regrow my hairline and omit the need for a treatment with Gho.

So phase 3 takes 12 months, whereas phase 2 takes 4+ years?

Does anyone else find this odd?

The Alchemist
11-08-2012, 01:14 PM
So phase 3 takes 12 months, whereas phase 2 takes 4+ years?

Does anyone else find this odd?

Not really odd at all. Phase II can last for long periods of time because it's when they try to optimize their protocol. The may end up phase II testing many variations of one protocol, which can take a long time to finish. Phase III is when they give the final trial of the protocol they intend to release commercially.

krewel
11-08-2012, 05:10 PM
So phase 3 takes 12 months, whereas phase 2 takes 4+ years?

Does anyone else find this odd?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?p=78316#post78316

Alf
11-09-2012, 07:24 AM
When you are callig and hearing about the screening are they saying anything about whan you can sign up?

Breaking Bald
11-10-2012, 06:26 PM
Do you think there is a chance that they have something good but are keeping it back for the time being? :confused:

Desmond84
11-11-2012, 01:35 AM
Do you think there is a chance that they have something good but are keeping it back for the time being? :confused:

Aderans definitely has something going on for sure. These guys wouldn't be still in the game if all their studies since 2007 didn't show POSITIVE results.

Their minimum expectations is to be able to do what Propecia can do which is pretty ground breaking on its own.

That would mean halting hair loss for all men with a single treatment! Histogen & Hair transplant docs will then fix up the damage caused by MPB (frontal loss) pre-Aderans.

Desmond84
11-11-2012, 01:37 AM
Not only that sounds very heart warming, but they are also ahead of everyone else in the trials. They're 4 months off from completing Phase II for good, making their product launch feasible by early 2015.

We just need Dr. Washenik back on TBT to give us more info. I'm so glad Spencer brought it up this week and said he will try and record an interview with him and put it on the show like he did Dr Gho this week.

I mean as long as Dr. Washenik confirms that what they were hoping for back in 2010 (achieve results similar to Propecia) is happening at these trials, I will be extremely happy :)

Fingers crossed

Joker
11-11-2012, 08:54 AM
Alf: When I call for screening, I generally don't get asked to sign up because I'm on Propecia and my balding pattern isn't what they are looking for. You need to be balding in the crown and have hair in the front. I'm diffuse from front to back. Usually when I call they still let me ask questions about the procedure and the company and stuff. I really, really wish more people would start calling - if not to sign up, at least to get more information.

BreakingBald: I really don't know, man. The optimist in me hopes "Maybe they've been silent because they know their next announcement is going to be big and they want to have all of their ducks in a row." But then the pessimist in me says "Realistically, they probably aren't saying anything because they have nothing to say. Phase 2 keeps being extended, and the company has never concretely said they are doing any further phases. Maybe they just aren't making real progress." Obviously I hope for the former but this industry has definitely taken it's toll on me over the years.

Desmond: Did Spencer really say he was going to get an interview with Washenik? (I didn't listen to the show.) Did he give a timeframe for when it might be? Did Washenik already agree? I have a feeling that the Aderans group that funds ARI will tell Washenik not to reveal too much information even if he does grant an interview...

Alf
11-11-2012, 09:54 AM
Alf: When I call for screening, I generally don't get asked to sign up because I'm on Propecia and my balding pattern isn't what they are looking for. You need to be balding in the crown and have hair in the front. I'm diffuse from front to back. Usually when I call they still let me ask questions about the procedure and the company and stuff. I really, really wish more people would start calling - if not to sign up, at least to get more information.


Thanks, I would call, but I live in europe so it is expencive and my oral english is no good(and I'm too shy to speak). But something that I don't get is how only a few(one?) lab have started phase 3 screening, why wouldn't they start the screening in all the labs if they have to start screening now to get time to start the phase three i Q2 2013? I'm not on propecia and have diffuse from front to back too and if possible and I get the full package(not just 1 cm^2 I'm travelling to USA and sign up for phase 3. LOL

Joker
11-13-2012, 11:26 PM
Hi Artista, I forgot to ask this before. You said you called the trial site and said it showed phase 2. Does that mean they told you it was a phase 2 study over the phone or you went by the listing on clinicaltrials.gov?

Artista
11-14-2012, 06:06 AM
Hi Joker, thanks for asking...To clarify..The representative I spoke to did not speak of which phase testing that it was. She just told me that they and the rest of the clinics had completed enrollment.
What I mentioned was that online it it showed to be a Phase 2 enrollment.
AS you have said,,I have not been following the thread too closely so, maybe it is a Phase 3 ..(frustrating for us)

Joker
11-14-2012, 05:29 PM
No problem, Artista. Thanks for the answer! Just trying to keep the conversation going until we hear some more information... :)

Desmond84
11-15-2012, 07:51 PM
Hey guys,

I might have some great news!

It seems like ALL of Ji Gami 12 months trials have now completed. FINALLY over 10 Phase 2 trials have ended!!!

They added one last 6 month trial in June 2012 which is set to complete in April 2012! This is the CN combination which according to the Aderans Timeline graph is the one they will use in Phase 3.

Now, we have to speculate why they're doing it only for 6 months and not 1 year? (expert opinions are welcome)

My guess is while this mini-study is ongoing they're gearing up to write up their Phase III study protocols and submit it to FDA and ethics committees. At the same time in the next month or two they will begin recruiting over 500 patients for the Phase III trial.

Hopefully, Phase III should start in June 2013 and end sometimes in September 2014.

FDA approvals generally take around 6 months, which means that by March-April 2015 we can start lining up and get our hairs in order once and for all! :D

rdawg
11-15-2012, 08:51 PM
Hey guys,

I might have some great news!

It seems like ALL of Ji Gami 12 months trials have now completed. FINALLY over 10 Phase 2 trials have ended!!!

They added one last 6 month trial in June 2012 which is set to complete in April 2012! This is the CN combination which according to the Aderans Timeline graph is the one they will use in Phase 3.

Now, we have to speculate why they're doing it only for 6 months and not 1 year? (expert opinions are welcome)

My guess is while this mini-study is ongoing they're gearing up to write up their Phase III study protocols and submit it to FDA and ethics committees. At the same time in the next month or two they will begin recruiting over 500 patients for the Phase III trial.

Hopefully, Phase III should start in June 2013 and end sometimes in September 2014.

FDA approvals generally take around 6 months, which means that by March-April 2015 we can start lining up and get our hairs in order once and for all! :D

wouldnt mind an official update though, this silence isn't comforting. Hoping for something by the end of the year.

hellouser
11-15-2012, 09:36 PM
Hey guys,

I might have some great news!

It seems like ALL of Ji Gami 12 months trials have now completed. FINALLY over 10 Phase 2 trials have ended!!!

They added one last 6 month trial in June 2012 which is set to complete in April 2012! This is the CN combination which according to the Aderans Timeline graph is the one they will use in Phase 3.

Now, we have to speculate why they're doing it only for 6 months and not 1 year? (expert opinions are welcome)

My guess is while this mini-study is ongoing they're gearing up to write up their Phase III study protocols and submit it to FDA and ethics committees. At the same time in the next month or two they will begin recruiting over 500 patients for the Phase III trial.

Hopefully, Phase III should start in June 2013 and end sometimes in September 2014.

FDA approvals generally take around 6 months, which means that by March-April 2015 we can start lining up and get our hairs in order once and for all! :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt a member on this forum who is a pharmacist mentioned that an application for approval from the FDA can be filed some time during the Phase III trials which would bring back the target to their projected date of 2014?

Joker
11-15-2012, 10:14 PM
Desmond: That new trial has actually been up for awhile (I thought everyone was aware of it). I'm not really sure what it means. The shorter duration is curious, as is the fact that it has less participants than the first CN trial (the one that has 100 participants). I just don't think we should get our hopes up that Phase 3 is starting soon without official word from the company. We don't know that this Phase 2 is the last Phase 2. We also don't know if the Phase 2 results have been good enough to move to Phase 3. There's just too many inconsistencies between the clinical trial sites, clinicaltrials.gov, the June 2010 presentation, the press releases, etc.

The frustrating thing is our only indication of efficacy came from the first 3 trials with 20-30 participants. 2.5 years have elapsed since then, and we've been given no new information whatsoever. I have no idea why Aderans has chosen to be so silent. Is it a reflection of their results? The fact that 8 months have gone by since their last update is really concerning to me.

I want to be positive, but once again... this industry just never seems to reward people for being optimistic.

Hellouser: I remember he said that Phase 4 was instituted after products were put on the market, but I don't remember anything about filing for Phase 3 early. Hopefully. That would be great news. But once again, until we know if Aderans has the funding/success rates to move forward with Phase 3 it's all pure speculation.

534623
11-16-2012, 01:26 AM
We don't know that this Phase 2 is the last Phase 2. We also don't know if the Phase 2 results have been good enough to move to Phase 3. There's just too many inconsistencies between the clinical trial sites, clinicaltrials.gov, the June 2010 presentation, the press releases, etc.

The frustrating thing is ...

Come on – why are you waiting for Aderans, when a far better hair follicle stem cells cure already existis?

Google “Dr. Nigam world's first stem cell hair clinic, Mumbai, India“ and you will find brand new insights by Dr. Nigam himself. For example:


Posted today by Dr. Nigam:

Since you might be new to Stem Cell Hair Multiplication, let me clear you that Stem Cell Hair Multiplication are not 100%. Its an evolving research. We use a combination of Stem Cell Hair Multiplication plus traditional FUE(specially for the hair line). Regarding the weight-loss clinic under Dr.Nigam Brand is run by my wife. Since last 5 years, my research is totally focused on Stem Cell Hair Multiplication. I would appreciate if you confirm your perception before speculating on anyone and passing a judgement. You are cordially invited to my clinic or talk to my patients and see for yourself before-after results of Stem Cell Hair Multiplication. I will be shortly posting my results on xxxx forum. I am also inviting patients for third stage of Stem Cell Hair Multiplication WITH differentiation of Stem Cell into Hair Follicles for clinical trials...you are welcome. (This will be the FIRST AUTOLOGOUS ADULT STEM CELL Clinical Trial on Humans for differentiation of Stem Cell into Hair Follicle on Humans from February 2013) Adreans Research Clinical Trials are on Stem Cell Hair Multiplication and not on Differention into Hair Follicles.

Thank You,
Dr.Vivek Nigam.

Where is the difference between "Stem Cell Hair Multiplication" and "Stem Cell Differentiation into Hair Follicles" ?

UK_
11-16-2012, 04:17 AM
Posted today by Dr. Nigam:

Since you might be new to Stem Cell Hair Multiplication, let me clear you that Stem Cell Hair Multiplication are not 100%. Its an evolving research. We use a combination of Stem Cell Hair Multiplication plus traditional FUE(specially for the hair line). Regarding the weight-loss clinic under Dr.Nigam Brand is run by my wife. Since last 5 years, my research is totally focused on Stem Cell Hair Multiplication. I would appreciate if you confirm your perception before speculating on anyone and passing a judgement. You are cordially invited to my clinic or talk to my patients and see for yourself before-after results of Stem Cell Hair Multiplication. I will be shortly posting my results on xxxx forum. I am also inviting patients for third stage of Stem Cell Hair Multiplication WITH differentiation of Stem Cell into Hair Follicles for clinical trials...you are welcome. (This will be the FIRST AUTOLOGOUS ADULT STEM CELL Clinical Trial on Humans for differentiation of Stem Cell into Hair Follicle on Humans from February 2013) Adreans Research Clinical Trials are on Stem Cell Hair Multiplication and not on Differention into Hair Follicles.

Thank You,
Dr.Vivek Nigam.

^^^^why dont you start a new thread about that? It will give the whole website something to laugh about.

And they'll also learn never to take advice off 534623.

He is a doctor who has apparently cured hair loss, yet can't even manage to spell the word differentiation correctly.

534623
11-16-2012, 04:38 AM
And they'll also learn never to take advice off 534623.

He is a doctor ...

That's right. That's the reason why I wrote it right ...



Where is the difference between "Stem Cell Hair Multiplication" and "Stem Cell Differentiation into Hair Follicles" ?

UK_
11-16-2012, 04:50 AM
That's right. That's the reason why I wrote it right ...

Your English is just as shit, read this back to yourself:


"Come on – why are you waiting for Aderans, when a far better hair follicle stem cells cure already existis?"

534623
11-16-2012, 04:50 AM
He is a doctor who has apparently cured hair loss, yet can't even manage to spell the word differentiation correctly.

Here you'll find another such example ...

http://www.woodstechnique.com.au/

The guy says he is the inventor of "BOBY Hair to Scalp Transplantation (BHT)". :rolleyes:

What is "Boby Hair" ??

UK_
11-16-2012, 04:54 AM
Hey guys,

I might have some great news!

It seems like ALL of Ji Gami 12 months trials have now completed. FINALLY over 10 Phase 2 trials have ended!!!

They added one last 6 month trial in June 2012 which is set to complete in April 2012! This is the CN combination which according to the Aderans Timeline graph is the one they will use in Phase 3.

Now, we have to speculate why they're doing it only for 6 months and not 1 year? (expert opinions are welcome)

My guess is while this mini-study is ongoing they're gearing up to write up their Phase III study protocols and submit it to FDA and ethics committees. At the same time in the next month or two they will begin recruiting over 500 patients for the Phase III trial.

Hopefully, Phase III should start in June 2013 and end sometimes in September 2014.

FDA approvals generally take around 6 months, which means that by March-April 2015 we can start lining up and get our hairs in order once and for all! :D

Desmond, I appreciate your help and your information, but did you mean to say their final clinical trial which commenced in June 2012 is targeted for completion at April 2013?

Also, what is your source for this information? Did you email the company?

The only issue on my mind is the efficacy and safety of the combination treatment (their chosen protocol), obviously from a safety perspective it should be fine as it wouldnt have made it this far. And as for efficacy, well it has to be higher than the 70% which they quoted way back in 2012, perhaps we're looking at around 80% - 90% this time. Time will tell, but we can positively speculate that Aderans have performed what they wanted, which is the development of a superior protocol to take into phase 3.

534623
11-16-2012, 05:00 AM
He is a doctor who has apparently cured hair loss, yet can't even manage to spell the word differentiation correctly.

And here is another such example …

Yep... and what did Follica do?...

Follica 2008: "cure will be available in 5 years time thanks to our research into mice wound healing".

Then we had retards laughing at Histogen saying "wnt ligands wont have ANY impact as the body will block them using wnt agonists".... *cough* *cough* Iron_Man rolf, too many shit-talking morons on these forums - the only company that has given results is the one people bash the most.

These morons can’t even manage to cite correctly. Just doctors can do this … :D



http://www.regenerativemedicine.net/images/PDF/hairfollicle.pdf

But Dr. Cotsarelis wrote in this paper (more or less between the lines on page 4, left column) the well-known (especially in UK) and famous sentence "... to date there has been no evidence that extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin" - what still remains correct (http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/15/3278666/Histogen-SID-2). That's the reason why after 3 - 4 years (and beyond) after publication no working product is on the market.

Alf
11-16-2012, 05:02 AM
All I want for Christmas is my two temples

UK_
11-16-2012, 05:15 AM
Read the following back to yourself:


"Just doctors can do this …"

Your English is defunct.

534623 - I was paraphrasing an informal comment made on a separate website by someone who is actually probably you (Iron_Man).

The same person who 2 years ago said Histogen would have closed down by now because WNT proteins would have no impact on scalp hair growth.

Instead of going around picking faults in paraphrased comments, try learning how to rearrange a proper sentence in English in place of looking like a complete retard.

Have a nice day.

534623
11-16-2012, 08:15 AM
The same person who 2 years ago said Histogen would have closed down by now because WNT proteins would have no impact on scalp hair growth.

Is this another paraphrased and not proper rearranged sentence in English, picked up from - nowhere?

Desmond84
11-16-2012, 02:29 PM
Desmond, I appreciate your help and your information, but did you mean to say their final clinical trial which commenced in June 2012 is targeted for completion at April 2013?

Oh yeah! Sorry dude! I meant from June 2012 - April 2013 :)
Also, even though it is a 6 month trial it finishes in April for 2 reasons:
1) They need 2 extra months to multiply enough dermal cells in the lab
2) They were actually scheduled to finish in Feb 2013 but they didn't get enough participants which delayed the completion date.



Also, what is your source for this information? Did you email the company?

I've been analysing what they've been releasing on clinicaltrials.gov over the last 6 months. Here's the link if you wanna check it out:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=ji+gami&Search=Search



The only issue on my mind is the efficacy and safety of the combination treatment (their chosen protocol), obviously from a safety perspective it should be fine as it wouldnt have made it this far. And as for efficacy, well it has to be higher than the 70% which they quoted way back in 2012, perhaps we're looking at around 80% - 90% this time. Time will tell, but we can positively speculate that Aderans have performed what they wanted, which is the development of a superior protocol to take into phase 3.

I totally agree. You wouldn't be getting funding for over 7 years and asking for more and more trials if you couldn't show some groundbreaking results :)

I personally think, their silence is partly due to their competition (Replicel, Histogen) trying to keep all their cards close to their chest. But they will definitely be releasing their final Phase 2 results sometime in April-May 2013.

garethbale
11-16-2012, 02:31 PM
534

Where are you from? Presumably English is not your first language?

534623
11-16-2012, 02:59 PM
Where are you from?

From MalibuKaerntenBeach (http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/15/3278666/MalibuKaerntenBeach.jpg).

JJacobs152
11-17-2012, 09:46 AM
Desmond, scrolled up to read your post. So things are looking good so far with Aderans? Thanks for keeping us updated with all the information! :D

Desmond84
11-17-2012, 05:10 PM
Desmond, scrolled up to read your post. So things are looking good so far with Aderans? Thanks for keeping us updated with all the information! :D

Yeah dude,

They will FINALLY release their results for the FIRST-TIME EVER whether good or bad in April-May 2013.

We have not been told anything about what they've been seeing in a published study / news release ever since they started up their company back in 2002!

Dr. Washenik's presentation in June 2010 only focused on what they're aiming to achieve (response rates, hair counts, etc) NOT what they were seeing at that point in time <sigh>

I think after 11 years we deserve a truthful answer :)

Joker
11-17-2012, 06:02 PM
Just another slight correction.

Washenik's presentation, and an Aderans press release from December 2010, did touch on the results of early iterations of Ji Gami. 50% of participants experienced improvements of 13 hairs/cm2 or better at 12 months.

We deserve a truthful answer, but I would refrain from getting your hopes up until we have something a little more concrete. Aderans stated that they would start releasing results "throughout 2011" and that obviously never happened. For that matter, they also said their method would be on the market in "late 2009/early 2010" in 2007. We can't reasonably expect anything more in 2013.

Let's just keep our fingers crossed and hope that this time things are different.

Alf
11-17-2012, 06:08 PM
Yeah dude,

They will FINALLY release their results for the FIRST-TIME EVER whether good or bad in April-May 2013.


Where did you get the date?

Desmond84
11-17-2012, 06:12 PM
Where did you get the date?

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=ji+gami&Search=Search

They only have one final 6 month trial to complete!

Desmond84
11-17-2012, 06:13 PM
Just another slight correction.

Washenik's presentation, and an Aderans press release from December 2010, did touch on the results of early iterations of Ji Gami. 50% of participants experienced improvements of 13 hairs/cm2 or better at 12 months.

We deserve a truthful answer, but I would refrain from getting your hopes up until we have something a little more concrete. Aderans stated that they would start releasing results "throughout 2011" and that obviously never happened. For that matter, they also said their method would be on the market in "late 2009/early 2010" in 2007. We can't reasonably expect anything more in 2013.

Let's just keep our fingers crossed and hope that this time things are different.

Dude! Did they really say they will announce their results in 2011!!!! :(

Aderans is like the Soviet Union! No body really knows whats going on in there!!!

God let's hope I'm right

Joker
11-17-2012, 06:34 PM
Yeah man, it's really frustrating. I just hope they have something decent and are on track to meet the goals they set in 2010. In January Spencer said that Aderans would put an update on the American Hair Loss Association blog and eventually grant an interview. Both of those things didn't happen. It definitely gets to you after awhile...

Alf
11-17-2012, 06:48 PM
But they must have commercial product i they are screening for phase 3. On the other hand if I was Adeans and had good results from phase 2 I would show them to the world, then people would stand in line outside my research labs to participate in phase 3.

Desmond84
11-17-2012, 06:55 PM
Touche!

10char

hellouser
11-18-2012, 03:40 AM
But they must have commercial product i they are screening for phase 3. On the other hand if I was Adeans and had good results from phase 2 I would show them to the world, then people would stand in line outside my research labs to participate in phase 3.

I'm sure they've got plenty of willing participants from phase II willing to go further with Phase III trials again as well as a slew of new participants. I'm willing to bet all of my hair that at least half the members of the forum members here would take part but I wouldnt be surprised if it were damn near all of us.

Theyre not going to release exact details until the trials are over and theyre ready to work on the commercial product in the sense thats its going to see a specific release date.

I'm betting their investors aren't too keen on releasing any early details while things aren't 100% certain. Phase III is probably going to be perfecting their method so any claims they make now may or may not play well with whatever claims they make after phase III. I know I'd stay pretty quiet until I were 100% confident and 100% sure everything was going to run exactly as planned and no different.

534623
11-18-2012, 03:59 AM
I'm betting their investors aren't too keen on releasing any early details while things aren't 100% certain. Phase III is probably going to be perfecting their method so any claims they make now may or may not play well with whatever claims they make after phase III. I know I'd stay pretty quiet until I were 100% confident and 100% sure everything was going to run exactly as planned and no different.

Does that mean that you would invest all your money in Aderans?
Or just 1 Cent ... ?

hellouser
11-18-2012, 04:01 AM
Does that mean that you would invest all your money in Aderans?
Or just 1 Cent ... ?

LOL, those are two extremes that add nothing to the conversation nor show any kind of logic anyway. I won't bother answering this question.

Alf
11-18-2012, 05:35 AM
I'm sure they've got plenty of willing participants from phase II willing to go further with Phase III trials again as well as a slew of new participants. I'm willing to bet all of my hair that at least half the members of the forum members here would take part but I wouldnt be surprised if it were damn near all of us.


Lets say it works. They need more participants to phase 3 than to phase 2. Not everyone(those who got no results) who partiipated in phase 2 will participate in phase 3, we are not that many who follow adeans and not everyone would quit using finasterid to participate in something you know very little about.

hellouser
11-18-2012, 04:48 PM
Lets say it works. They need more participants to phase 3 than to phase 2. Not everyone(those who got no results) who partiipated in phase 2 will participate in phase 3, we are not that many who follow adeans and not everyone would quit using finasterid to participate in something you know very little about.

They'll be fine with participants, that is not going to cause a setback. I'd be more worried about how easily they get the product on 'store shelves' as in, FDA approval process. That's the one that scares me the most.

I also hope that for whatever reason they don't extend Phase III trials at least not by much if only to get their solution perfected, I'm not keen on waiting, I'm sure you or any of the other board members here are either.

Alf
11-18-2012, 06:31 PM
They'll be fine with participants, that is not going to cause a setback. I'd be more worried about how easily they get the product on 'store shelves' as in, FDA approval process. That's the one that scares me the most.

I also hope that for whatever reason they don't extend Phase III trials at least not by much if only to get their solution perfected, I'm not keen on waiting, I'm sure you or any of the other board members here are either.

No I'm not keen on waiting. I wish I was a management consultant. Then I would tell them to get the product to the market as soon as possible is the key and then you can allways improve the product later and make the customers come back for another treatment. No reason for only charging once.

What I am afraid of is someonte telling Aderans that they will get the same customers even if they delay another year for noone will come up with something better in the mean time.

hellouser
11-18-2012, 07:07 PM
No I'm not keen on waiting. I wish I was a management consultant. Then I would tell them to get the product to the market as soon as possible is the key and then you can allways improve the product later and make the customers come back for another treatment. No reason for only charging once.

What I am afraid of is someonte telling Aderans that they will get the same customers even if they delay another year for noone will come up with something better in the mean time.

Thats a risk though, Histogen has been making good progress and any further delays to Aderans will push closer to a release date thats nearer Histogen's. Aderans needs to come out with a consumer product as fast as possible if they intend to make the kind of money that would please their investors. The sooner they do this, the better as it will give them that much more time to make profits before Histogen or any other solutions comes out to market. Basically they'd have 100% of the market if they came out with a product today and there would be nothing that affect their sales other than traditional FUT/FUE/HST solutions which would basically be stone age treatments compared to Aderans.

I'm optimistic in the sense that theyre working on releasing it as soon as possible, but I as well as everyone else has to realize there is a long process until that happens.

I don't really like speculating either since none of us really knows what fine details of efficacy, trial success, FDA hurdles, marketing hurdles, commercialization process, etc. This does take a lot of time. To put it into perspective, I worked at a marketing agency a couple years ago and we were doing a massive fund raiser for cancer research for a local hospital. We were going to run a weekend long hockey tournament that would involve sponsors, commercials, ads, banners, website, team and player signups, an info hotline, promotional videos, logos, etc. Before the event we spent over a years time from conceptualization to a final launch day of the event and that was with three or more teams working on all of this; the hospital, our agency, third party agencies and many others involved with sponsorship. Its a very tedious process and I can tell you that communication between all people takes a long time, many people are slow to respond or slow to complete their tasks. Aderans is going to have similar challenges and I hope theyre already working on them to get their treatment out the door and ready for the public, from making websites, training doctors, refitting their purchased clinics, marketing, approvals from FDA, etc. Not exactly a 5 minute job.

534623
11-18-2012, 07:16 PM
I don't really like speculating either ...

For not liking it - you really speculate a lot.

hellouser
11-18-2012, 07:30 PM
For not liking it - you really speculate a lot.

Your opinions don't matter on this forum, I've seen your contributions in discussions and they've often times been insults against members. You shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone, and certainly are not by me.

534623
11-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Your opinions don't matter on this forum

Who says it was an "opinion"? It was just an allegation.

Or do you mean my allegation is untrue?

Alf
11-18-2012, 08:02 PM
, from making websites, training doctors, refitting their purchased clinics, marketing, approvals from FDA, etc. Not exactly a 5 minute job.

Marketing and making websites should be easy to make in time.
The others I'm not sure about.

534623
11-18-2012, 08:08 PM
Okay, now let me speculate a little bit ...

This is a PR article by Aderans, published around 1 year ago:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8838237.htm

Snippet:

"We’re getting closer and closer to solving the puzzle of cellular hair regeneration"

What does that mean?
They already solved the puzzle - or couldn't solve the puzzle so far?

Furthermore ...


“These conferences are important for us because they bring together hair restoration surgeons, clinicians and scientific researchers to exchange insights and expand our collective knowledge of the follicular regeneration and restoration processes.”

What does that mean?
Does that mean that about 55 people in a 27,000-square-foot building and after 10 years of hair research still need knowledge from others to solve the puzzle (= still unsolved)?

Ah, I know - it's just a PR article and nobody should read too much into it ...

hellouser
11-18-2012, 08:42 PM
Marketing and making websites should be easy to make in time.
The others I'm not sure about.

Websites are a pain in the ass actually, typically it takes 2-3 months to get anything professional done. Unless you hire a freelancer that knows basic PHP and makes a simple static website or a a basic Wordpress site. Web design process is tedious too; initial meetings, wireframe development, then aesthetic design concepts, revisions, photography (unless stock photography is chosen), then finally coding and depending what the site needs will determine how much work and how long it takes to do it, especially if its an e-commerce website, though I don't see much being done on that front, Aderans solution obviously isnt an item that can be purchased.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out that launching a product like this nationally is a herculean task.

inspects
11-18-2012, 09:19 PM
Aderans Research recently completed the first of seven protocols of a hair regeneration Phase 2 clinical study.
More than half of study participants showed significant hair growth one year after the cell product treatment
was administered. Ongoing trial protocols are evaluating additional variants from ARI’s Ji Gami™ family of
follicular cell products.

They claim there was significant hair growth in half of the study participants, not sure that they consider significant.

inspects
11-18-2012, 09:23 PM
It says on PRNet the costs for their Ji Gami™ family will be similar to transplant costs.

Alf
11-19-2012, 03:34 AM
Websites are a pain in the ass actually.
Don't doubt that, but it should be managable in the timeframe from they know they have the prdocut to it is ready for sale. Phase 3 alone takes a year.

Desmond84
11-19-2012, 06:11 AM
OK guys,

This is a serious question that I've been asking myself lately so plz share your thoughts:

"Do you think, if we don't hear from Aderans by April 2013 and they decide to do another Phase 2 trial that we could safely say our generation of hairloss sufferers missed out on this cutting edge technology?"

I certainly do think so, especially since I'm not planning on taking fin on a long-term basis (i.e. till 2020)

What are your thoughts?

inspects
11-19-2012, 06:26 AM
OK guys,

This is a serious question that I've been asking myself lately so plz share your thoughts:

"Do you think, if we don't hear from Aderans by April 2013 and they decide to do another Phase 2 trial that we could safely say our generation of hairloss sufferers missed out on this cutting edge technology?"

I certainly do think so, especially since I'm not planning on taking fin on a long-term basis (i.e. till 2020)

What are your thoughts?

Desmond,

I sent Dr W. an email last Friday, asking if he had any idea of a time-frame in mind, but just looking at their website and PR releases I don't see anything happening for at least a couple more years.

inspects
11-19-2012, 06:28 AM
They claim there was significant hair growth in half of the study participants, not sure that they consider significant.

I'd like to know what they consider "Significant" in their studies...100 follicles, 1000?

Alf
11-19-2012, 11:33 AM
I'd like to know what they consider "Significant" in their studies...100 follicles, 1000?

Joker said earlier that they got 13 or more hairs per cm^2 for halft the participants, and he says his source is the 2010 presebtation.

But there are no picure evidence, at least not regular pictures.

inspects
11-19-2012, 01:07 PM
Joker said earlier that they got 13 or more hairs per cm^2 for halft the participants, and he says his source is the 2010 presebtation.

But there are no picure evidence, at least not regular pictures.

So much for that product....:eek:

Alf
11-19-2012, 01:25 PM
So much for that product....:eek:
If you think of the information given by aderans to the public, I would say that the program has no chace of success.
The reason I believe in aderans is because of the rumours on the internet. One user who I believe is telling the truth who said that he got 5 real hairs(not vellus)(he didn't say the area size, but he had 20 from before and said he had diffuse hair loss so I would guess he thought about cm^2) The results were from phase 1 and only one treatment.
2. are the labs talking about phase 3 and saying on telephone? that the product works(to some degree).

But we will soon find the truth, either they start phase 3 next year or they don't.

inspects
11-19-2012, 01:34 PM
If you think of the information given by aderans to the public, I would say that the program has no chace of success.
The reason I believe in aderans is because of the rumours on the internet. One user who I believe is telling the truth who said that he got 5 real hairs(not vellus)(he didn't say the area size, but he had 20 from before and said he had diffuse hair loss so I would guess he thought about cm^2) The results were from phase 1 and only one treatment.
2. are the labs talking about phase 3 and saying on telephone? that the product works(to some degree).

But we will soon find the truth, either they start phase 3 next year or they don't.

Alf,

Its one of those gigs they hope could work, but prolly won't....;)

Some company will eventually find something, but in the next five-ten years I doubt anything will transpire regarding regrowth of existing follicles.

I have my doubts about Histrogen too, but that's just me, I'm sure others have their fingers crossed.

Transplant, Hair System, or Bust......!

Dan26
11-19-2012, 02:02 PM
Alf,

Its one of those gigs they hope could work, but prolly won't....;)

Some company will eventually find something, but in the next five-ten years I doubt anything will transpire regarding regrowth of existing follicles.

I have my doubts about Histrogen too, but that's just me, I'm sure others have their fingers crossed.

Transplant, Hair System, or Bust......!

I personally do not even concern myself with any of these companies release dates, because things could always change. I can say though based on my knowledge and the opinions of people I hold in high regard, that if, for example, things like CB (an anti-androgen), Histogen (growth factors), and something to address PDG2 come to market, it SHOULD create regrowth. The science and the safety are the most important things. If you browse forums and see people who are really into fighting hairloss, who go as far to inject growth factors, you know that these things do work, but there long term sustainability is in question.

I feel confident in saying that if you are in the beginning stages of hair loss, you should have some hope. I dream of unlimited donor supply one day, but I have a good feeling I can control my hair loss until then.

Alf
11-19-2012, 02:26 PM
Alf,

Its one of those gigs they hope could work, but prolly won't....;)

Praying to santa that you are wrong:P

Alf
11-19-2012, 03:30 PM
OK guys,

This is a serious question that I've been asking myself lately so plz share your thoughts:

"Do you think, if we don't hear from Aderans by April 2013 and they decide to do another Phase 2 trial that we could safely say our generation of hairloss sufferers missed out on this cutting edge technology?"

I certainly do think so, especially since I'm not planning on taking fin on a long-term basis (i.e. till 2020)

What are your thoughts?
No phase 3 and I'm not so sure there will be another phase 2.

hellouser
11-19-2012, 04:34 PM
Why would they go back to Phase II or extend them when theyre finishing up and claimed they would start Phase III in 2013 as well as the clinical trials site stating that as well?

Joker
11-19-2012, 07:29 PM
When did Aderans claim they would start Phase 3 in 2013? It doesn't say that on the clinical trials site, does it?

inspects
11-19-2012, 07:35 PM
I feel confident in saying that if you are in the beginning stages of hair loss, you should have some hope. I dream of unlimited donor supply one day, but I have a good feeling I can control my hair loss until then.

Dan,

Now that is about the most intelligent response anyone can really say, try to keep what you have until something comes along, its bound to happen some day, but surely not in the near future.

Dan26
11-19-2012, 08:27 PM
Dan,

Now that is about the most intelligent response anyone can really say, try to keep what you have until something comes along, its bound to happen some day, but surely not in the near future.

Lol thanks man, BUT I did leave out an important part, which is, some people may need to search past conventional methods to achieve this. There is a reason people do this, usually due to the traditional approved meds not being effective or result in sides. My advice is educate and empower yourself, read the studies and move forward at your own risk, but there are definitely some good alternatives out there, problem is finding the right place to get them.

Desmond84
11-20-2012, 01:32 AM
Desmond,

I sent Dr W. an email last Friday, asking if he had any idea of a time-frame in mind, but just looking at their website and PR releases I don't see anything happening for at least a couple more years.

You're amazing brother :)

Let's hope he does reply. Spencer also mentioned last week that he's going to try and record an interview with him. Let's hope we get some kind of info before xmas!

Alf
11-21-2012, 09:09 AM
Desmond,

I sent Dr W. an email last Friday, asking if he had any idea of a time-frame in mind, but just looking at their website and PR releases I don't see anything happening for at least a couple more years.

I sent mail t Aderans some time ago with some questions including yours and I never got an answer.



Let's hope he does reply. Spencer also mentioned last week that he's going to try and record an interview with him. Let's hope we get some kind of info before xmas!

At least Spencer should try to get the date when Aderans will release some information.

youngsufferer
11-22-2012, 11:16 AM
when is their supposed announcement?

534623
11-22-2012, 11:24 AM
http://www.nctimes.com/making-case-for-stem-cell-treatment/article_d27ec027-dd4f-5ae7-a691-eca6a34fd26c.html
when is their supposed announcement?

Interesting - thanks.

November 04, 2012 8:00 am • Bradley J. Fikes wrote:

Aderans Research Institute: Your own hair, back again. That’s the allure of Atlanta-based Aderans’ Ji Gami hair growth process. Patients donate hair-containing skin from their neck, and Aderans cultivates the hair follicle-forming cells. These cells are then injected back into the patient.

The cells stimulate new hair production in dormant hair follicles, working on male or female pattern baldness, said Aderans Chief Executive Ken Washenik. They have been tested in animals and are now being tested in people.

“When we inject this mixture of dermal and epidermal cells … we find that the cells intercalate (integrate) into existing hair follicle structures and reprogram them or turn them back on,” Washenik said at his company’s presentation.

Aderans has performed Phase 1 safety studies on Ji Gami, and has now started Phase 2 studies, looking for effectiveness.
I guess they are still looking where they can find any effectiveness in any trail subject.

UK_
11-22-2012, 02:44 PM
Yes and the cells also come together to form new hair follicles just like Replicel found.

So no reason why this couldnt be combined with a HT to give natural density that cant be typically achieved by a conventional hair transplant.

That's what we want, a cell based hair transplant that can offer an unlimited supply of growth.

baldybald
11-22-2012, 03:07 PM
yes, and the waiting game still on!!!

Joker
11-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Hey guys, not sure exactly when this is from, but ARI hired this company in December of 2011, so the testimonial had to come from sometime in 2012:

http://www.strafford.com/Portals/474/docs/ari%20-%20case%20study.pdf

"We're a 10 year old biotech that's still a couple years away from having a commercial product."

That sounds pretty consistent with the 2014 timeline, although it's unclear if that means having a product on shelves or just having a final product to continue testing. I would *guess* that it means having a product on shelves since they are testing different formulations of products already, but it could mean that there are a couple more years of Phase 2 before a commercial product will go to Phase 3.

Anyways, it's a new piece of substantive info that I thought I would share to get your thoughts.

Joker
11-22-2012, 03:28 PM
http://www.exlpharma.com/event-agenda/3642

Also the director of clinical and regulatory affairs for Aderans is participating in a summit about clinical trial documentation. Not particularly helpful to us, but I guess it shows that Aderans is active in the community.

Just wish they would hurry up.... :/

Joker
11-22-2012, 03:46 PM
http://www.careerbliss.com/company-reviews/ari-reviews-129529/contractor-review-910891/

Also found this, lol. Per the "suggestions for management" section, apparently they don't tell their employees very much information either. At least we aren't the only ones being kept in the dark!

Alf
11-22-2012, 08:34 PM
http://www.careerbliss.com/company-reviews/ari-reviews-129529/contractor-review-910891/

Also found this, lol. Per the "suggestions for management" section, apparently they don't tell their employees very much information either. At least we aren't the only ones being kept in the dark!
LOL, indeed.

Desmond84
11-23-2012, 05:56 AM
http://www.careerbliss.com/company-reviews/ari-reviews-129529/contractor-review-910891/

Also found this, lol. Per the "suggestions for management" section, apparently they don't tell their employees very much information either. At least we aren't the only ones being kept in the dark!

Wow Joker, you give Sherlock Holmes a run for his money!
LMAO

Well done! Keep up this great investigative work

Joker
11-23-2012, 05:50 PM
Thanks, Desmond. I do my best! Frankly, I wish I didn't have to... but at this point, all we can go on is bits and pieces of random information. Any word from Spencer on his potential interview w/ Ken Washenik?

Joker
11-26-2012, 01:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

Aderans presentation from Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa.

Like always, very disappointing results. Sorry, guys.

Let's just hope that Dr. Cole is actually able to regenerate donor using ACell... looks like that's our only hope at this point.

Joker
11-26-2012, 01:32 PM
But before I get too negative, I should mention that if this treatment is compoundable (and Doc Washenik says it should be) it could actually lead to some pretty good outcomes, especially when combined with transplants.

Also, if the new hairs which are created are androgen resistant forever, that could be really helpful.

So it's not all bad news. It's not shocking regrowth, but with compoundability and androgen resistance it could actually be a great treatment potentially.

PS, did anyone notice that the little gun thing said Phase 3 underneath? I guess that's a good sign.

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 02:03 PM
Looks like a visible improvement. Technology takes time, and a weak proof of concept is a heck of a lot better than nothing at all. The takeaway here is that these regenerative techniques work for growing hair. Now it's just a question of seeing how far it can be taken.

That said, I'm still hoping for Histogen. Aderans still requires a biopsy to collect your cells, and I don't think I'd be comfortable with a procedure that's going to leave permanent scaring.

Desmond84
11-26-2012, 03:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

Aderans presentation from Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa.

Like always, very disappointing results. Sorry, guys.

Let's just hope that Dr. Cole is actually able to regenerate donor using ACell... looks like that's our only hope at this point.

First of all, thanks Joker for being such a great journalist! No new info will ever get past you brother ;)

TBH, this 15 minute presentation was groundbreaking in my opinion! We have finally found a way to make follicles resistant to DHT without having systemic side effects the way Propecia does. Welcome to 21st century ladies and gentlemen :)

On a side note, the key to getting a great response was to still have semi-miniaturised follicles rather than bald spots! So, it is vital to remain on DHT blockers for as long as possible to prevent any further miniaturisation until we get to Aderans!

Also, sadly, Washenik had no intention to announce that Phase 2 trials are almost over meaning there may be more Phase 2 trials to come! Oh well, it's out of our hands I suppose! Now, we just have to be patient

ihavebeenchosenithasbegun
11-26-2012, 03:17 PM
First of all, thanks Joker for being such a great journalist! No new info will ever get past you brother ;)

TBH, this 15 minute presentation was groundbreaking in my opinion! We have finally found a way to make follicles resistant to DHT without having systemic side effects the way Propecia does. Welcome to 21st century ladies and gentlemen :)

On a side note, the key to getting a great response was to still have semi-miniaturised follicles rather than bald spots! So, it is vital to remain on DHT blockers for as long as possible to prevent any further miniaturisation until we get to Aderans!

Also, sadly, Washenik had no intention to announce that Phase 2 trials are almost over meaning there may be more Phase 2 trials to come! Oh well, it's out of our hands I suppose! Now, we just have to be patient



If it can do that, it's an absolute win for me.:D

Joker
11-26-2012, 03:17 PM
Great attitude Desmond and very true!

2020
11-26-2012, 03:30 PM
what's the point in making follicles resistant to DHT if you have no hair? Do you really think anyone besides of a couple desperate people from this forum have any interest in that? As I said before, cell based treatments will have a ZERO SUCCESS RATE. Just forget about it. Your only real hope in the next 5 years is Histogen. That's it.

534623
11-26-2012, 03:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8


http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/15/3278666/Aderans-Mesa.jpg
So what exactly is he saying in this scene (10:20 >>>)?

Seems the stuff just works (if at all) for “still not that much AGA-affected hair follicles”.
But in almost slick bald areas = game over (= point of no return) = no rejuvenation of "too dead hair follicles". Sounds logical – is logical.

ihavebeenchosenithasbegun
11-26-2012, 03:37 PM
what's the point in making follicles resistant to DHT if you have no hair? Do you really think anyone besides of a couple desperate people from this forum have any interest in that? As I said before, cell based treatments will have a ZERO SUCCESS RATE. Just forget about it. Your only real hope in the next 5 years is Histogen. That's it.

Very interested.

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 03:40 PM
what's the point in making follicles resistant to DHT if you have no hair? Do you really think anyone besides of a couple desperate people from this forum have any interest in that? As I said before, cell based treatments will have a ZERO SUCCESS RATE. Just forget about it. Your only real hope in the next 5 years is Histogen. That's it.

1) not everyone is already a NW7
2) not everyone needs to get back to a NW0 to be happy
3) cool science is still cool, regardless of whether it benefits you personally
4) this could be used in conjunction with other treatments
5) it doesn't have a zero success rate because they have pictures of it working. just not quite as well as you'd like.

Desmond84
11-26-2012, 03:44 PM
what's the point in making follicles resistant to DHT if you have no hair? Do you really think anyone besides of a couple desperate people from this forum have any interest in that? As I said before, cell based treatments will have a ZERO SUCCESS RATE. Just forget about it. Your only real hope in the next 5 years is Histogen. That's it.

Success rate will be dependent on stage of hairloss and your genetics!

Don't forget the possibility of using Histogen to kick start the follicles and then Aderans to maintain these follicles in the near future!

I just hope Aderans will be available soon! I hate the waiting game :o

P.S. The 60&#37; response rate was regarding hair regrowth! I wonder how many % maintained their hair?

Desmond84
11-26-2012, 03:46 PM
http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/3/15/3278666/Aderans-Mesa.jpg
So what exactly is he saying in this scene (10:20 >>>)?

Seems the stuff just works (if at all) for “still not that much AGA-affected hair follicles”.
But in almost slick bald areas = game over (= point of no return) = no rejuvenation of "too dead hair follicles". Sounds logical – is logical.

Yeah I think if you have a small bald spot, you can kind of fix it with hair transplants and Aderans will permanently maintain the hair you have (kind of like Propecia)

yeahyeahyeah
11-26-2012, 04:08 PM
1) not everyone is already a NW7
2) not everyone needs to get back to a NW0 to be happy
3) cool science is still cool, regardless of whether it benefits you personally
4) this could be used in conjunction with other treatments
5) it doesn't have a zero success rate because they have pictures of it working. just not quite as well as you'd like.

6) Low norwoods - NW3s can get back down a norwood level or 2 with this.

HT surgeons in turn will be less 'conservative' with their approach - only reason why they currently are, is in case the hairloss progresses.

JJJJrS
11-26-2012, 04:24 PM
Call me cynical but this process always seems to repeat itself with these new technologies.

First, the treatment is said to create totally new follicles. When that doesn't prove to be the case, the claim then becomes that it rejuvenates weakened/miniaturized follicles. Finally, they say it prevents the existing follicles from miniaturization. With each claim it becomes more and more difficult to prove.

Don't get me wrong, a side-effect free treatment that prevents the balding process or even slows it down would be a huge deal. All the younger patients in the early stages of baldness would effectively be cured, while those at a more advanced stage would be much more viable candidates for existing surgical treatments. Unfortunately, I'm very skeptical until I see more tangible evidence.

534623
11-26-2012, 04:45 PM
Call me cynical but this process always seems to repeat itself with these new technologies.

First, the treatment is said to create totally new follicles. When that doesn't prove to be the case, the claim then becomes that it rejuvenates weakened/miniaturized follicles. Finally, they say it prevents the existing follicles from miniaturization. With each claim it becomes more and more difficult to prove.

Interview with Dr. Washenik in June, 2003:

HS: Can you tell us more about this technique that ARI is currently researching? Does it create a brand new follicle or does it rejuvenate existing dormant or inactive follicles?

Dr. Washenik: Our plan is to create new follicles. We don’t expect to rejuvenate dormant hair follicles, but if that happens, we would be thrilled and that would certainly be a very pleasant surprise.
This may sound like a marketing slogan, but Dr. Lee Bosley often says "hair transplantation is minor surgery but major artistry" because the doctor is deciding where to place the grafts in order to achieve the desired artistic effects.
With tissue engineered hair growth or follicle neogenesis, we are creating a brand new follicle and the onus is on the person implanting the hair seeds to create an artistically acceptable result.
On the contrary,
if old follicles can be rejuvenated, that would be wonderful because we do not have to worry about the hair direction and angle. Everything is already predetermined by nature and we simply have to restart the process. Right now [2003] our focus is creation of new follicles, but I would be thrilled if we can rejuvenate dormant hair follicles too.

Does he sound "thrilled" in the new video? :rolleyes:

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 05:14 PM
Does he sound "thrilled" in the new video? :rolleyes:

As thrilled as anyone does at a medical conference.

The fact is, we can speculate all we like, but that won't actually affect anything. The only reason to check this forum is if you're looking for a bit hope as you come to terms with your condition. So what's the harm in being optimistic?

2020
11-26-2012, 05:48 PM
Very interested.

lol then you are one of those desperate forum people who will hang out by this forum for a long time...



Success rate will be dependent on stage of hairloss and your genetics!

Don't forget the possibility of using Histogen to kick start the follicles and then Aderans to maintain these follicles in the near future!

I just hope Aderans will be available soon! I hate the waiting game :o

P.S. The 60&#37; response rate was regarding hair regrowth! I wonder how many % maintained their hair?


oh god the ignorance here is hurting me...

THINK OF THE AVERAGE HAIR LOSS SUFFERER. Both genders. Don't think of yourself or anyone else from this forum. Most people from this forum(dozens) will take 20 pills in order to grow a couple hair. Billions of people who don't even visit hair loss forums won't. Hair loss is not the end of the world for 95+% people. No one is going to pay thousands of dollars to maintain their bald head. Women(bigger market than men I assure you) don't even need "maintenance" as all of their hormonal disorders that cause hair loss are completely curable but they won't be able to regrow all of their hair. Are you even thinking this through?


This isn't all completely hopeless. Aderans and Replicel are done for sure. They should have never tried treating hair loss using cell based treatments. There is still Histogen which I'm personally giving ~50% chance of it even coming into the market.

Alf
11-26-2012, 06:03 PM
OK, i have diffuse hair loss any increase in hair density is welcome and would in fact give me noticeable results.

This was phase 2, why didn't they test if the stuff was compundable? They knew from phase 1 that the patient needs several treatments, so for safety checks shouldn't they check what happens when the patients do in fact get severalt treatments? Same goes for results?

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 06:06 PM
lol then you are one of those desperate forum people who will hang out by this forum for a long time...

Do tell us - why are you on this forum?



oh god the ignorance here is hurting me...

THINK OF THE AVERAGE HAIR LOSS SUFFERER. Both genders. Don't think of yourself or anyone else from this forum. Most people from this forum(dozens) will take 20 pills in order to grow a couple hair. Billions of people who don't even visit hair loss forums won't. Hair loss is not the end of the world for 95+% people.

And yet it's still a massive industry.



No one is going to pay thousands of dollars to maintain their bald head.

1) We don't know what the cost will be.
2) Most people don't wait until they're completely bald before getting treatment. Scenario: there's a history of baldness in my family, and I've noticed my crown is starting to thin. I could either get Aderans now, or a hair transplant in a few years. Personally, I'd go for the one that's cheaper, less invasive, and preventative.



Women(bigger market than men I assure you) don't even need "maintenance" as all of their hormonal disorders that cause hair loss are completely curable but they won't be able to regrow all of their hair. Are you even thinking this through?

Don't know enough about pattern baldness in women to comment.



This isn't all completely hopeless. Aderans and Replicel are done for sure. They should have never tried treating hair loss using cell based treatments. There is still Histogen which I'm personally giving ~50% chance of it even coming into the market.
From what I can see, Aderans does just as well as propecia, and while probably more expensive in the short term, could very well be cheaper in the long term (propecia ain't cheap). And cell based treatments are the future of medicine in general, not just hair loss.

I'm going to take a guess that you're a bitter NW7, and I'm sorry you don't appreciate the advances being made here. But just because something is useless for you doesn't mean it's useless for everyone.

goingquick
11-26-2012, 06:22 PM
So far all the new treatments seem to be very promising for those in the early stages of diffuse hair loss.

For those of us with slick bald spots, it seems repeating treatments as well as combining different treatments will be necessary. Whether or not that would be any more affordable than a mega-session hair transplant remains to be seen...

goingquick
11-26-2012, 06:26 PM
From what I can see, Aderans does just as well as propecia, and while probably more expensive in the short term, could very well be cheaper in the long term (propecia ain't cheap).


Propecia will go generic in 2013

edit: Don't get me wrong, I'd still rather get Aderan's treatment than take Propecia, but the cost of finasteride isn't a motivating factor.

2020
11-26-2012, 06:35 PM
Neither Aderans nor Replicel will be able to "immunize" follicles from DHT. Just forget about it. This is not how it works.

oh and I'm barely NW2 and improving. I'm not bitter, I'm just disappointed with everyone involved in this industry. So much incompetence...

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 06:46 PM
Neither Aderans nor Replicel will be able to "immunize" follicles from DHT. Just forget about it. This is not how it works.

oh and I'm barely NW2 and improving. I'm not bitter, I'm just disappointed with everyone involved in this industry. So much incompetence...

Hmm, if you don't mind my asking, why are you on this site? NW2 isn't that bad, and a slightly recessed hairline can make a guy look more distinguished. Are you worried about side effects from propecia?

I really don't think it's fair to make charges of incompetence. Hair follicles are complicated little things, and the fact that these companies are even accomplishing anything at all is kind of amazing from a scientific standpoint, even if not from a practical one. Given that's is a purely cosmetic problem, and given the state of things just a few decades ago, I really think you should reconsider your cynicism. Or if nothing else, maybe take a break from the forums for a bit - there's an extent to which the less often I check this site, the less I actually care about the fact that I have a bald spot; constantly reminding yourself isn't good if you're not getting anything positive out of it.

hellouser
11-26-2012, 06:51 PM
Neither Aderans nor Replicel will be able to "immunize" follicles from DHT. Just forget about it. This is not how it works.

oh and I'm barely NW2 and improving. I'm not bitter, I'm just disappointed with everyone involved in this industry. So much incompetence...

You may claim to not be bitter but you're undeniably pessimistic and negative on just about every matter there is on this forum.

clarence
11-26-2012, 07:16 PM
Geez NW2 is not much of a problem for some hairstyles, but it effectively limited me from having a shorter kind of hairstyle throughout my 20s. An attempt to get the crew cut of your dreams will in the worst case reveal a severely thinning NW3, even if you could pull off a full-blown NW1-look with a longer set of locks provided, that the wind is on your side.

Alf
11-26-2012, 07:21 PM
oh and I'm barely NW2 and improving.
???

10char

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 07:28 PM
Geez NW2 is not much of a problem for some hairstyles, but it effectively limited me from having a shorter kind of hairstyle throughout my 20s. An attempt to get the crew cut of your dreams will in the worst case reveal a severely thinning NW3, even if you could pull off a full-blown NW1-look with a longer set of locks provided, that the wind is on your side.

I don't think people should have to hide the fact that they're a NW2. If you're nearing a NW3 and have the start of a bald spot, then sure, it doesn't always look great. But if you're just a NW2, only the most shallow of the shallow are going to care, or even consciously notice the fact that your temples have receded a bit. It's like some (don't want to over generalize) women and shoes - they care about them a lot more than any potential mate is ever going to. I've known women who will completely obsess about it, and yet I don't think I have ever, in my entire life, judged the attractiveness of a woman based on her footwear. Again, if you have a severe bald spot, that can look pretty awkward and unattractive, but I think there's a lot of room before you hit that threshold, or at least more room than a lot of the people on this forum think there is.

edit: also, in case anyone were curious, I'm probably around a 3V, though with the right styling I can pretty much hide the thin patch completely. Don't really care about my temples - those went years ago. But the diffuse thinning snuck up on me (infrequent haircuts, and the fact that most people are too polite to mention that they can see your scalp), and by the time I even became aware of the existence of Propecia (why don't they advertise?) it was too late to really reverse anything in any substantial way.

ihavebeenchosenithasbegun
11-26-2012, 07:36 PM
All I need is something to replace finpecia when it'll stop working.

If Aderans can do that, that's amazing and good enough for me.

mjolnir
11-26-2012, 07:39 PM
All I need is something to replace finpecia when it'll stop working.

If Aderans can do that, that's amazing to me.

You ever consider just making your peace with it at that point? Obviously hair loss bothers me - I'm on this site, and I like knowing that things are in the works - but I also would like to think that in a few more years I won't really care any more. Shaved heads are becoming more acceptable, and there is some truth to the idea of inner beauty being what really counts.

ihavebeenchosenithasbegun
11-26-2012, 07:45 PM
You ever consider just making your peace with it at that point? Obviously hair loss bothers me - I'm on this site, and I like knowing that things are in the works - but I also would like to think that in a few more years I won't really care any more. Shaved heads are becoming more acceptable, and there is some truth to the idea of inner beauty being what really counts.

Idk, we'll see.:)

Still crossing my fingers that something like that will be out when it starts to loss it's effectiveness.

Pate
11-26-2012, 07:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

Aderans presentation from Stem Cell Meeting on the Mesa.

Like always, very disappointing results. Sorry, guys.

Let's just hope that Dr. Cole is actually able to regenerate donor using ACell... looks like that's our only hope at this point.

So basically they appear to be struggling to grow hair on slick bald areas. We know its possible to do because Replicel did it on mouse footpads, but on humans apparently it's trickier.

I suspect the reason may be because on slick bald scalp the fat layers and blood vessels needed to support the hair follicle organs atrophy, so it's like trying to grow plants on bare rock instead of soil.

Which raises an interesting possibility - what if they do it in a transplanted area where the fat and blood vessels have already regenerated? Also, what about diffuse thinning? Ji Gami may work much better in these cases.

But the holy grail of good regrowth on slick bald scalp obviously continues to elude us.

UK_
11-26-2012, 09:00 PM
@Joker,

Gho + Aderans in crown and transplanted areas = hair loss cured.

inspects
11-26-2012, 09:34 PM
Have you folks ever watched this Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUeJTjEKHfQ) from Dateline NBC News regarding hair loss?

Interesting video, especially the results from the man just using Propecia. The product certainly lives up to its claims, it has helped me immensely.

Personally I think Alderans has a long time before anything comes to fruition, just FDA approval usually can take years, and their not finished with trials, nor have they shown any significant results.

I would have to agree with the people who think Histogen will probably be the next product actually on the market in the years ahead.

rdawg
11-26-2012, 09:38 PM
So what was the basic news overall today guys?

good? bad? somewhat good?

approval for phase 3 happening soon or is this going in the trash?

inspects
11-26-2012, 10:49 PM
good? bad? somewhat good?

Depends on what your opinion is...did you read much of what was posted?

Not good in my unscientific mind.

UK_
11-26-2012, 11:10 PM
Its not over - should be compoundable - and they wouldnt be continuing if it wasnt better than current FDA treatments.

Will bring to transplants exactly what they need: thick natural density.

Desmond84
11-27-2012, 02:26 AM
Call me cynical but this process always seems to repeat itself with these new technologies.

First, the treatment is said to create totally new follicles. When that doesn't prove to be the case, the claim then becomes that it rejuvenates weakened/miniaturized follicles. Finally, they say it prevents the existing follicles from miniaturization. With each claim it becomes more and more difficult to prove.


C'mon guys! There has not been any new treatments for hairloss for over 17 years! That's right...almost TWO DECADES!!!!

Now here we are with several treatments in the pipeline that are showing very promising results and all ppl do is whinge!!!

You have Aderans that will LITERALLY halt your hairloss where it's at and Histogen that is Minoxidil on Steroids! TWO powerful treatments that will most probably be available within the next 3 years!

I mean what else do you want?

These treatments will carry us well into 2025 with most of our hair and who knows what will be available by then :) Stop sobbing over every little bit of news that we get guys! You should be jumping up and down from hearing these success reports...

My dad and uncles would have killed someone just to get their hands on Propecia when they were my age and here we are with even better treatments in the next few years and all we do is cry over how we can't have teenage density!!!!

We are so lucky to be experiencing hairloss now compared to 20 years ago! Be positive guys

clarence
11-27-2012, 05:33 AM
I don't think people should have to hide the fact that they're a NW2. If you're nearing a NW3 and have the start of a bald spot, then sure, it doesn't always look great. But if you're just a NW2, only the most shallow of the shallow are going to care, or even consciously notice the fact that your temples have receded a bit. It's like some (don't want to over generalize) women and shoes - they care about them a lot more than any potential mate is ever going to. I've known women who will completely obsess about it, and yet I don't think I have ever, in my entire life, judged the attractiveness of a woman based on her footwear. Again, if you have a severe bald spot, that can look pretty awkward and unattractive, but I think there's a lot of room before you hit that threshold, or at least more room than a lot of the people on this forum think there is.

NW2 and a widow's peak; for me, that means a crew cut does not just work very well, whether I'm hiding or not. But I'm already moving towards an NW3 region, now at 30 years old. I'd love to hear 2020's side of the story, tho.

yeahyeahyeah
11-27-2012, 05:45 AM
NW2 and a widow's peak; for me, that means a crew cut does not just work very well, whether I'm hiding or not. But I'm already moving towards an NW3 region, now at 30 years old. I'd love to hear 2020's side of the story, tho.

Wear bangs and go to a good hair dresser.

Jairus
11-27-2012, 07:42 AM
................

Jairus
11-27-2012, 07:45 AM
You have Aderans that will LITERALLY halt your hairloss where it's at and Histogen that is Minoxidil on Steroids! TWO powerful treatments that will most probably be available within the next 3 years!

Are u sure Aderans will HALT hairloss to a significant degree? Does the problem of follicle immunization not still exist?

BTW Im a believer not a pessimist :)

BoSox
11-27-2012, 08:28 AM
You have Aderans that will LITERALLY halt your hairloss where it's at and Histogen that is Minoxidil on Steroids! TWO powerful treatments that will most probably be available within the next 3 years!

Are u sure Aderans will HALT hairloss to a significant degree? Does the problem of follicle immunization not still exist?

BTW Im a believer not a pessimist :)

Halt hair loss? Isn't hair cloning suppose to cure baldness? Wtf is halting going to do for us? Nw7, congrats you can halt your hairloss, yayyyyy.

bananana
11-27-2012, 09:21 AM
I remain optimistic. It's important a lot of companies are working on the problem. You know the story behind penicillin? Maybe that kind of luck strikes at us, you never know.

As desmond says - opportunities are born every day. It's the waiting game and holding on to what you got.

msm, cetirizine, ru, bimato, divine oil... a lot of new products are out there that are showing results.
Al least till we get a game changer.

Arashi
11-27-2012, 11:02 AM
C'mon guys! There has not been any new treatments for hairloss for over 17 years! That's right...almost TWO DECADES!!!!

You forget about Dr Gho.

Arashi
11-27-2012, 11:06 AM
BTW, I just watched the video and can't really understand why not everyone here is totally excited !! This is great news. Sure, it's not the 'wonder cure' just yet but the mere fact that stem cell research already has landed in the phase where we see results in clinical trials like this, then that's just great progress.

Jairus
11-27-2012, 11:06 AM
Halt hair loss? Isn't hair cloning suppose to cure baldness? Wtf is halting going to do for us? Nw7, congrats you can halt your hairloss, yayyyyy.

Well for NW7's I guess it wont work - seems it makes the hair u have DHT resistant. I got confused with this and Histogen :cool:

So I guess this is propecia with no side effects. Then Histogen to thicken up what u have.

There are always quality wigs for NW7's. Or if Gho is legit, then u could get multiple HT's with DHT resistant donor hair regeneration??

Arashi
11-27-2012, 11:12 AM
if Gho is legit
I'm convinced he is. More and more proof is emerging. Also see this thread I created, posting proof of my own regrowth in the donor area: http://www.haarweb.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=31602

I had 1600 grafts, with which they filled up my temples. I asked them if could get up to 60 grafts/cm2 via another surgery. They said it's possible but if my hairloss procedes there won't be enough grafts to get my whole head at 60 grafts/cm2 (while my donor area is quite perfect). In other words, while dr Gho is in my opinion THE best current option, it's still not the *perfect* cure. But combined with Aderans it just might be ...

Jairus
11-27-2012, 12:02 PM
I'm convinced he is. More and more proof is emerging. Also see this thread I created, posting proof of my own regrowth in the donor area: http://www.haarweb.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=31602

I had 1600 grafts, with which they filled up my temples. I asked them if could get up to 60 grafts/cm2 via another surgery. They said it's possible but if my hairloss procedes there won't be enough grafts to get my whole head at 60 grafts/cm2 (while my donor area is quite perfect). In other words, while dr Gho is in my opinion THE best current option, it's still not the *perfect* cure. But combined with Aderans it just might be ...

Ah you went to him already. Interesting pics. If your hairloss proceeds there wont be enough grafts? Dont understand this - surely if donor hair is getting regenerated then grafts should be infinite? Or maybe Im misunderstanding?

Ted
11-27-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm convinced he is. More and more proof is emerging. Also see this thread I created, posting proof of my own regrowth in the donor area: http://www.haarweb.nl/forum/showthread.php?t=31602

I had 1600 grafts, with which they filled up my temples. I asked them if could get up to 60 grafts/cm2 via another surgery. They said it's possible but if my hairloss procedes there won't be enough grafts to get my whole head at 60 grafts/cm2 (while my donor area is quite perfect). In other words, while dr Gho is in my opinion THE best current option, it's still not the *perfect* cure. But combined with Aderans it just might be ...

Nice to get another example of ghos work! Do you have any before pics from the same position as your after pics?

Arashi
11-27-2012, 01:17 PM
Ah you went to him already. Interesting pics. If your hairloss proceeds there wont be enough grafts? Dont understand this - surely if donor hair is getting regenerated then grafts should be infinite? Or maybe Im misunderstanding?
No, the way I understood it from them is that they can't do it on the same graft twice. I know I've read somewhere why this exactly is but can't recall, I think he talks about it in his latest interview ...


Nice to get another example of ghos work! Do you have any before pics from the same position as your after pics?

Not sure what you mean ? These before and after pics are pretty much just that ? Or do you mean of my temples ? In that case, no. Well yeah i got some but not highres.

mjolnir
11-27-2012, 04:13 PM
You forget about Dr Gho.

It's still hair transplant surgery, and while I can't speak for other people, I know that personally there's no amount of hair loss that could ever convince me to go under the knife just to satisfy my vanity. Maybe it's not rational, but the whole idea of a hair transplant just seems barbaric to me.

Breaking Bald
11-27-2012, 05:32 PM
but the whole idea of a hair transplant just seems barbaric to me.

Even FUE? I don't see how FUE is that barbaric really.

mjolnir
11-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Even FUE? I don't see how FUE is that barbaric really.

Again, maybe it's not rational, but the idea of having someone not just cut organs out of my head, but then shove them in somewhere else hoping they take root just rubs me the wrong way. Plus it does still leave scarring, even if it's comparatively minimal.

Alf
11-28-2012, 09:06 AM
But why no new information on Aderans web site?
And again, why do you think they didn't give several treatments in phase 2?

Artista
11-28-2012, 10:27 AM
Concerning the most recent video on Aderans.. I really do not understand why there is so much negativity in re to the photo results thus far . Those photos show EFFECTIVENESS using the constrained dosages. One of the balding crown photos had shown more hair created on SLICK BALD skin, right?

Arashi
11-28-2012, 01:35 PM
Concerning the most recent video on Aderans.. I really do not understand why there is so much negativity in re to the photo results thus far . Those photos show EFFECTIVENESS using the constrained dosages. One of the balding crown photos had shown more hair created on SLICK BALD skin, right?
Yup, totally agreed, this is very exciting news !

Breaking Bald
11-28-2012, 01:46 PM
Again, maybe it's not rational, but the idea of having someone not just cut organs out of my head, but then shove them in somewhere else hoping they take root just rubs me the wrong way. Plus it does still leave scarring, even if it's comparatively minimal.

I get what your saying but it really aint that bad, FUE anyway. When you use the word 'organs' that maks it sound more barbaric. But there is MUCH MORE invasive surgery than HT's.

UK_
11-28-2012, 04:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_JHbtXJ0a8

If you look at the picture at 10:10 the guys vertex bald area looks pretty much slick bald, and in the after shot he has gained hair even in the very centre of the balding area.

When Washenik stated this would only be for miniaturised follicles I think he was on about that this treatment would unfortunately not work for people with scarring alopecias and burn victims in which the dermal layers have been completely destroyed. Which is disheartening beyond anything when those are the people who deserve this treatment to work for them the most.

mjolnir
11-28-2012, 04:38 PM
I get what your saying but it really aint that bad, FUE anyway. When you use the word 'organs' that maks it sound more barbaric. But there is MUCH MORE invasive surgery than HT's.

Yeah, but those surgeries aren't cosmetic. But anyway, that's just me; part of it too is that I just don't like to think that I'm that vain.

Pate
11-28-2012, 04:46 PM
Yeah definitely some minor terminal hair growth on slick bald scalp. And now that that scalp isn't slick bald any more, the blood vessels and fat later are building up again, would this area respond even better to a repeat application after 6 months?

It's not beyond the grounds of possibility. Could Aderans actually get more effective with subsequent treatments?

There would be a limit to the number of biopsies you can have, so hopefully they can keep culturing the original cells for subsequent injections.

UK_
11-28-2012, 04:52 PM
If those are the norwoods they are treating then I am more than happy - because Aderans know this treatment needs to be something that can AID their existing hair transplants - theyve said this all along - you will still need to have a HT but the injections will give you natural density.

Desmond84
11-28-2012, 06:34 PM
So, after seeing these promising results by Aderans in Phase 2, it is probably time to start talking about what is Ji Gami all about :)

Ji Gami is a culture of your:

a) Dermal papillae cells, and

b) Keratinocytes

that is extracted from the back of your scalp (1cmx1cm) and is multiplied in the laboratory to millions of cells. These cells are then injected into the balding areas to stimulate hair growth!

Now, the most important question is why are we only using these TWO cells? After all, the hair follicle is a complex organ which is made up of over 11 different types of cells (E.G. outer root sheath, inner root sheath, hair shaft, hair matrix, connective tissue sheath, dermal papilla, etc).

This can be best described by what is the role of these TWO cells:

1) DERMAL PAPILLAE (DP) CELLS

Dermal papillae are small, nipple-like extensions of the dermis into the epidermis. This is what gives you your fingerprints!

In your scalp, DP cells sit right below the hair follicle and contain blood vessels that nourish hair follicles with oxygen and nutrients.

DP cells are involved in the cycle of hair growth and shedding. Now, as most of you may know: The resting phase is known as telogen, the growth phase as anagen and the regression phase as catagen.

During catagen, the epithelial cells at the base of the follicle undergo apoptosis, but the DP remains intact and is pulled or migrates upwards, until it comes to rest next to the stem cells of the hair follicle bulge. This situation persists during telogen. In anagen, cells at the base of the follicle start to proliferate, which results in downward growth of the follicle and envelopment of the DP.

DP cells themselves are thought to not divide. However, the number of cells in the DP increases during anagen, possibly as a result of replenishment from neighbouring cells of the dermal sheath.

Now, here’s some important facts about Dermal Papillae cells:

I. Androgen receptors have only been found in dermal papillae cells of hair follicles. In vitro tests have shown that embedding DP cells (cultivated from androgen sensitive areas) in testosterone significantly shrinks their size, thereby reducing the amount of blood supply to the hair follicle and the launch of an inflammatory caspase response!

II. DP cells remain substantially unaltered (except in size) throughout life. They are formed on day 14 of embryo development and remain the same until you die! This means Aderans treatment will have a PERMANENT effect!

2) KERATINOCYTES

Keratinocytes form the hair itself. Studies in late 90’s found that DP cells can be easily cultured if they are grown on top of Keratinocytes. To my knowledge, that is the only reason Aderans is using these cells. (However, I could be wrong)

Arashi
11-28-2012, 06:47 PM
I get what your saying but it really aint that bad, FUE anyway. When you use the word 'organs' that maks it sound more barbaric. But there is MUCH MORE invasive surgery than HT's.

Totally agreed. Anybody going for FUT nowadays is crazy anyway. I feel sorry for everybody with such tremendously ugly scar on the back of their head, which is totally unnecessary anyway. I just uploaded a picture of my donor area shot at the HASCI clinic, right after 'surgery', barely any blood visible, see my album.

Also, surgery is in my opinion WAY safer than taking medication that has known side effects as decreased libido, impotency and depression/suidical thoughts, like Finasteride. I'm vain but not THAT vain that I want to take poison like that ...

mjolnir
11-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Totally agreed. Anybody going for FUT nowadays is crazy anyway. I feel sorry for everybody with such tremendously ugly scar on the back of their head, which is totally unnecessary anyway. I just uploaded a picture of my donor area shot at the HASCI clinic, right after 'surgery', barely any blood visible, see my album.

Also, surgery is in my opinion WAY safer than taking medication that has known side effects as decreased libido, impotency and depression/suidical thoughts, like Finasteride. I'm vain but not THAT vain that I want to take poison like that ...

Haha, fair enough. I'm on fin, though too late to save me from needing clever styling to hide my thin patch. That was a panicked reaction, I think - I had a lot of crap going on in my life, I wanted to at least try to control something. I haven't had any negative side effects, so I'm sticking with it, but if I had been more in my present state of mind at the time, I might have just said 'to hell with it', and shaved it all off.

Arashi
11-28-2012, 07:39 PM
Haha, fair enough. I'm on fin, though too late to save me from needing clever styling to hide my thin patch. That was a panicked reaction, I think - I had a lot of crap going on in my life, I wanted to at least try to control something. I haven't had any negative side effects, so I'm sticking with it, but if I had been more in my present state of mind at the time, I might have just said 'to hell with it', and shaved it all off.
I must admit, I've been playing with the idea of taking Fin myself, but after reading this article, every single hair on my head was convinced it was a VERY bad idea ;) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120807101330.htm

44&#37; of the people with persistent sexual sides having suicidal thoughts ? Man, really, that's SO not worth it ...

mjolnir
11-28-2012, 08:17 PM
I must admit, I've been playing with the idea of taking Fin myself, but after reading this article, every single hair on my head was convinced it was a VERY bad idea ;) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120807101330.htm

44% of the people with persistent sexual sides having suicidal thoughts ? Man, really, that's SO not worth it ...

Of course the other option is always a hair piece. Cost and upkeep would be a bit of a pain, but cosmetically they look pretty good now, and you're not actually messing with your body.

clarence
11-28-2012, 10:58 PM
Totally agreed. Anybody going for FUT nowadays is crazy anyway. I feel sorry for everybody with such tremendously ugly scar on the back of their head, which is totally unnecessary anyway. I just uploaded a picture of my donor area shot at the HASCI clinic, right after 'surgery', barely any blood visible, see my album.

Go ahead, just feel sorry all you like for a choice which is not one bit of your business, but don't you sit there behind your screen with your primitive hairstyle and offend my sanity because of my future choice in favor of FUT over the (in my case) inferior method, FUE. And I wonder, what could be more necessary for me than preserving the density of the donor area, despite the scar.

Arashi
11-29-2012, 05:04 AM
Go ahead, just feel sorry all you like for a choice which is not one bit of your business, but don't you sit there behind your screen with your primitive hairstyle and offend my sanity because of my future choice in favor of FUT over the (in my case) inferior method, FUE. And I wonder, what could be more necessary for me than preserving the density of the donor area, despite the scar.
Brother, we're all in the same boat and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just meant I personally strongly feel that a HT isn't worth it when it leaves you with such a scar, but that's my personal opinion. I also meant that anyone choosing FUT over FUE/HSI nowadays because they still believe FUT yields better results (which was true in the past, but not anymore) is just misinformed, but of course I was speaking generally. You say in your specific situation FUT is superior and I'm sure you've come to that conclusion by doing good research, so I really wonder, why is that ?

clarence
11-29-2012, 07:49 AM
Brother, we're all in the same boat and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just meant I personally strongly feel that a HT isn't worth it when it leaves you with such a scar, but that's my personal opinion. I also meant that anyone choosing FUT over FUE/HSI nowadays because they still believe FUT yields better results (which was true in the past, but not anymore) is just misinformed, but of course I was speaking generally. You say in your specific situation FUT is superior and I'm sure you've come to that conclusion by doing good research, so I really wonder, why is that ?

Because of effects on the donor area. It takes less than math skills to see that one method preserves density and the other reduces density. That's why, and I would rather have a FUT in a heartbeat, even if it yielded less and cost more than FUE.

Arashi
11-29-2012, 08:28 AM
Because of effects on the donor area. It takes less than math skills to see that one method preserves density and the other reduces density. That's why, and I would rather have a FUT in a heartbeat, even if it yielded less and cost more than FUE.
That's false. First of all, if you take out a strip of skin, that part of your skin has to be filled up. This means that:
1) Current skin streches a bit, which results in (slightly) lower density.
2) your hairline at the front and back of the head both recede (albeit slightly).

Furthermore, HSI yields 80&#37; regrowth of the donor (at least, that's what they tell you at the clinic), so that preserves density quite well too. With FUT you (of course) don't have regrowth so you lose 80% more hair.

clarence
11-29-2012, 09:06 AM
That's false. First of all, if you take out a strip of skin, that part of your skin has to be filled up. This means that:
1) Current skin streches a bit, which results in (slightly) lower density.
2) your hairline at the front and back of the head both recede (albeit slightly).

Furthermore, HSI yields 80% regrowth of the donor (at least, that's what they tell you at the clinic), so that preserves density quite well too. With FUT you (of course) don't have regrowth so you lose 80% more hair.

Ok, maybe I should have said one method preserves density and the other reduces that density. Like if one man buys coffee from the grocery store, and another man buys from a wholesale where they give him a discount, they first one saves money, and the other one loses that money.

FUT density is alot more than 80%. Yes, I am that vain.

Arashi
11-29-2012, 09:14 AM
FUT density is alot more than 80&#37;.
Like said, skin will stretch thus reducing density. Besides you lose all the hairs in the donor area, while 80% grows back with HST. But let's not turn this thread into a debate FUT vs FUE/HST. If you want to go ahead with FUT and don't mind the scar and are happy with the result, then that's a good thing of course.

Winston
11-29-2012, 09:30 AM
But let's not turn this thread into a debate FUT vs FUE/HST. If you want to go ahead with FUT and don't mind the scar and are happy with the result, then that's a good thing of course.

That's a good thought Arashi, this is an Aderans thread, lets try to keep it on track.:)

Alf
11-29-2012, 06:17 PM
But why isn't aderans updating their website?

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 04:08 PM
OK guys, time to start talking about release date:

As most of you heard on the presentation, Aderans has given up on reaching the "70&#37; response rate" target and instead are looking for genetic markers that will indicate whether you're a responder or not.

So what does this mean for their release date?

How long do you suspect this will take?

When do you think Phase 3 will start?

What worries me is, genetic markers were NOT on their timeline schedule back in 2010. Does this mean they are lagging behind more than 1 year as initially thought?

Alf
12-01-2012, 04:32 PM
OK guys, time to start talking about release date:

As most of you heard on the presentation, Aderans has given up on reaching the "70% response rate" target and instead are looking for genetic markers that will indicate whether you're a responder or not.

So what does this mean for their release date?

How long do you suspect this will take?

When do you think Phase 3 will start?

What worries me is, genetic markers were NOT on their timeline schedule back in 2010. Does this mean they are lagging behind more than 1 year as initially thought?

But genetic markers is something hey cna look for in parallel with the rest f the reseach and they donæt need it to sell the product? I would at least give the product a shot even if it was 50/50 if it worked(and it shuldnt cost full price if it doesn't work, you only need some injections to see how it if it works)

neversaynever
12-01-2012, 04:50 PM
A few thoughts,

1. MODERATORS of this forum need to step in and control the discussion so that it stays on topic and refrains from abuse. It is VERY annoying when there is news like this and there is page after page after page of talk which has NOTHING to do with Aderans.

2. My personal view is that Aderans have knocked the socks of Histogen and Repicel. Their trial is huge and their photos show CLEAR re-growth. Something I cant really see in Histogens macro shots.

3. OK, so theyre not creating new follicles but this is a huge step forward. Between DHT, BDGF, TGFbeta1, PGE2, PGD2 and so much more, there is no way we will develop a therapy that fixes the signalling problem that makes us bald. Cell multiplication and bio-engineered hairs are the only real possible 'cure'. Aderans are achieving re-growth that is visible after just one injection. And they seem active in finding out just how many of those cells are working and how many are not. Its a big big plus. They have proven that cells can be multiplied to provide a visible change. How can that not be a huge step towards a cure?

4. Are those hairs now DHT resistant? Is that signalling issue now resolved? Essentially those shrinking hairs have inducted these new cells. The next big step is for them to find out how many of the injected cells are actually being inducted and possibly subjecting transformed hair to some kind of "DHT test"?

5. Spencer needs to interview this guy. Id say as a top priority. If he, or a moderator is reading this, please oblige!

People might play down Aderans regrowth but I would pay £20k right now if it was available. Sorry to NW7s and NW6s but there are plenty of people around with plenty of hair left that they can save. Is their a video available of the questions that audience went on to ask him?

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 04:52 PM
Alf, I just wanna get this hair loss over and done with! I can't wait till I can safely dump my Propecia :)

You could be right actually. They probably know already what these genetic markers are! Any estimates on year of release?

neversaynever
12-01-2012, 04:53 PM
OK guys, time to start talking about release date:

As most of you heard on the presentation, Aderans has given up on reaching the "70% response rate" target and instead are looking for genetic markers that will indicate whether you're a responder or not.

So what does this mean for their release date?

How long do you suspect this will take?

When do you think Phase 3 will start?

What worries me is, genetic markers were NOT on their timeline schedule back in 2010. Does this mean they are lagging behind more than 1 year as initially thought?

Genetic markers shouldnt worry you. It at least means they are pro-active in vastly improving the current results. With markers they can track the new cells and find out the % of cells being inducted and maybe the conditions in which induction is optimal. Phase 3 wont be for a while. Phase 2 isnt quite done yet and they have some big planning and research to do.

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 04:57 PM
A few thoughts,

1. MODERATORS of this forum need to step in and control the discussion so that it stays on topic and refrains from abuse. It is VERY annoying when there is news like this and there is page after page after page of talk which has NOTHING to do with Aderans.

2. My personal view is that Aderans have knocked the socks of Histogen and Repicel. Their trial is huge and their photos show CLEAR re-growth. Something I cant really see in Histogens macro shots.

3. OK, so theyre not creating new follicles but this is a huge step forward. Between DHT, BDGF, TGFbeta1, PGE2, PGD2 and so much more, there is no way we will develop a therapy that fixes the signalling problem that makes us bald. Cell multiplication and bio-engineered hairs are the only real possible 'cure'. Aderans are achieving re-growth that is visible after just one injection. And they seem active in finding out just how many of those cells are working and how many are not. Its a big big plus. They have proven that cells can be multiplied to provide a visible change. How can that not be a huge step towards a cure?

4. Are those hairs now DHT resistant? Is that signalling issue now resolved? Essentially those shrinking hairs have inducted these new cells. The next big step is for them to find out how many of the injected cells are actually being inducted and possibly subjecting transformed hair to some kind of "DHT test"?

5. Spencer needs to interview this guy. Id say as a top priority. If he, or a moderator is reading this, please oblige!

People might play down Aderans regrowth but I would pay £20k right now if it was available. Sorry to NW7s and NW6s but there are plenty of people around with plenty of hair left that they can save. Is their a video available of the questions that audience went on to ask him?

You're so right! Definitely as close as we can get to a cure before 2020.

Regarding DHT resistance: I suppose, if the 2 year follow ups show hair count maintenance then we can safely assume they are DHT resistance

neversaynever
12-01-2012, 04:59 PM
I still have high hopes for Histogen though. Noone has a treatment like theirs, and in combination with aderans? Who knows.

neversaynever
12-01-2012, 05:00 PM
If possible, we need to pester Spencer to interview this guy and take some of our questions.

2020
12-01-2012, 05:01 PM
your hair was "DHT resistant" before you started balding. Stop your BS. No one is interest in your combinations

neversaynever
12-01-2012, 05:05 PM
your hair was "DHT resistant" before you started balding. Stop your BS. No one is interest in your combinations

Well whatever the malfunction is, in theory the new cells should not have the same malfunction, unless the problem is in the environment.

You think you're gonna hurt my feelings with that attitude?

Person
12-01-2012, 05:09 PM
Realistic aderans release date: May 2019

neversaynever
12-01-2012, 05:12 PM
Realistic aderans release date: May 2019

id say 2017. Assuming they start phase 3 in early 2014.

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 05:14 PM
your hair was "DHT resistant" before you started balding. Stop your BS. No one is interest in your combinations

1. Your hairs were DHT resistant because a specific gene wasn't activated yet. This gene/s get activated in different ages in different ppl.

2. Androgen receptors have only been found on the dermal papillae (DP) cells of hair follicles. That's what Aderans is replacing, so yes it definitely is possible!


Realistic aderans release date: May 2019

Could it really take 6 years to finish Phase III and get FDA approval? :(

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 06:02 PM
OK, I just did a bit of reading and found the following: The average time from completion of Phase 3 trials to FDA approval has dropped from 30 months (Late 80's) to 10-15 months (2005+).

So assuming Phase 3 takes around 2 years and FDA approval 1 year, we should have Aderans on the market by late 2016 to early 2017!

http://www.fda.gov/ucm/groups/fdagov-public/documents/image/ucm208348.gif

Here's the FDA link if you wanna read about it:

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/ReportsManualsForms/Reports/UserFeeReports/PerformanceReports/PDUFA/ucm209349.htm

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 06:10 PM
Oh man I just can't believe we've gone from early 2014 to early 2017.

I can kind of undrestand why the old timers are so negative :o

yeahyeahyeah
12-01-2012, 06:12 PM
Oh man I just can't believe we've gone from early 2014 to early 2017.

I can kind of undrestand why the old timers are so negative :o

So whats our best bet - histogen?

Desmond84
12-01-2012, 06:18 PM
Yeah, looks like we have to get to Singapore in 2015 for Histogen and hopefully by 2017 we can get our follicles immunised against DHT with Aderans!

Dazza
12-01-2012, 06:35 PM
Yeah, looks like we have to get to Singapore in 2015 for Histogen and hopefully by 2017 we can get our follicles immunised against DHT with Aderans!

always wanted to go to singapore..

two in one bonus

Artista
12-01-2012, 07:36 PM
Singapore is a wonderful place to visit.

UK Boy
12-03-2012, 07:15 AM
A few thoughts,

1. MODERATORS of this forum need to step in and control the discussion so that it stays on topic and refrains from abuse. It is VERY annoying when there is news like this and there is page after page after page of talk which has NOTHING to do with Aderans.

2. My personal view is that Aderans have knocked the socks of Histogen and Repicel. Their trial is huge and their photos show CLEAR re-growth. Something I cant really see in Histogens macro shots.

3. OK, so theyre not creating new follicles but this is a huge step forward. Between DHT, BDGF, TGFbeta1, PGE2, PGD2 and so much more, there is no way we will develop a therapy that fixes the signalling problem that makes us bald. Cell multiplication and bio-engineered hairs are the only real possible 'cure'. Aderans are achieving re-growth that is visible after just one injection. And they seem active in finding out just how many of those cells are working and how many are not. Its a big big plus. They have proven that cells can be multiplied to provide a visible change. How can that not be a huge step towards a cure?4. Are those hairs now DHT resistant? Is that signalling issue now resolved? Essentially those shrinking hairs have inducted these new cells. The next big step is for them to find out how many of the injected cells are actually being inducted and possibly subjecting transformed hair to some kind of "DHT test"?

5. Spencer needs to interview this guy. Id say as a top priority. If he, or a moderator is reading this, please oblige!

People might play down Aderans regrowth but I would pay £20k right now if it was available. Sorry to NW7s and NW6s but there are plenty of people around with plenty of hair left that they can save. Is their a video available of the questions that audience went on to ask him?

I agree about the re-growth, I don't get why people are saying these are poor results, there was definite cosmetic improvement with just one injection, I'm sure if the whole area was injected and with repeat treatments the improvement would be even better. Also the possibility of the treatment preventing any further hairloss is a huge thing for a lot of men. Those with less severe hairloss would basically have a cure, get Aderans treatment and then, safe in the knowledge that you'll not suffer any further hairloss, go and get a high density FUE hair transplant. I would def pay thousands if they could guarantee DHT resistence for all my remaining hair plus some regrowth on top of that.

Artista
12-03-2012, 07:22 AM
I have to agree with UK and Neversay' , I was impressed with the overall results shown thus far.

bigentries
12-03-2012, 10:23 AM
Is there a possibility that the results can be compounded?

The results are average at best, some people get better results with fin or minox at a lower cost

Alf
12-03-2012, 04:02 PM
Is there a possibility that the results can be compounded?

The results are average at best, some people get better results with fin or minox at a lower cost
Someone earlier mentiond that Aderans researchers expect that it is compundable, question is how much.

goingquick
12-03-2012, 04:47 PM
Someone earlier mentiond that Aderans researchers expect that it is compundable, question is how much.

Any source for that statement? If it's true the Aderans researchers expect it to be compoundable, that's great news.

Alf
12-03-2012, 06:58 PM
Any source for that statement? If it's true the Aderans researchers expect it to be compoundable, that's great news.
I have it from the user Joker " But before I get too negative, I should mention that if this treatment is compoundable (and Doc Washenik says it should be) it could actually lead to some pretty good outcomes, especially when combined with transplants. "
Page 65.

I don't have any first source, but I guess Joker or someone else on the forum has.

Desmond84
12-22-2012, 05:19 PM
OK guys, Prepare to get your minds BLOWN :D

Now, most of you would have read the stuff I posted a week ago about the reason why Aderans is using Dermal Papillae cells to treat baldness. Here's what I posted if you haven't:


Well, around 3 months ago I did a lot of research into what are Dermal papillae cells and dermal sheeth cup cells and why are we using them rather than the other 30 different cells around the hair follicles.

What I came up with was fascinating. here's some of those articles:

1) To date, we have only found Androgen receptors on the dermal papillae of hair follicles. Hence, the reason why Aderans most likely decided to use these cells! Here's the link:

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v98/n6s/abs/5612065a.html

2) Dermal papillae cells in balding areas express a much larger number of androgen receptors compared to non-balding areas. Here's a study if you wanna read further:

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/156/1/59.short

3) Here's the most AMAZING finding back in late 90's: "Dermal papillae extracted from occipital scalp hair follicles (donor area) lack Androgen receptors! Here's the link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2133.1995.tb08706.x/abstract

That's why I think at least in theory, DHT-resistance may be possible!

Cheers ;)


What I can't find out is:

1) How long do Dermal papillae last for before they have to be replaced with new ones?

2) How do Dermal papillae replicate? DO they replicate themselves or does a stem cell create more? If it's the latter, then we need regular injections of Aderans otherwise the stem cells would again produce DHT-sensitive Dermal papillae!

So here's the BIG news:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate. They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

This is the best news we could have had :) Why? Well what this means is that the effects of Aderans would be PERMANENT!

Once you have Dermal Papillae from occipital region (donor area) transplanted onto the top of your scalp, there are no longer sufficient Androgen receptors for DHT to damage your follicles; i.e. your hair will remain DHT-resistant for a substantial period of your life!

So, I believe in the future, hair transplant surgeons would simply refuse to perform fue/HST/etc until you have managed to immunise your remaining hair against DHT. Once immunised, they will then perform a high density transplant.

Here's some extra info on DP cells if you guys wanna read futher:

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/124/8/1179.full.pdf

We are so close brothers...I can smell it ;)

amibald
12-22-2012, 05:30 PM
OK guys, Prepare to get your minds BLOWN :D

Now, most of you would have read the stuff I posted a week ago about the reason why Aderans is using Dermal Papillae cells to treat baldness. Here's what I posted if you haven't:





So here's the BIG news:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate. They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

This is the best news we could have had :) Why? Well what this means is that the effects of Aderans would be PERMANENT!

Once you have Dermal Papillae from occipital region (donor area) transplanted onto the top of your scalp, there are no longer sufficient Androgen receptors for DHT to damage your follicles; i.e. your hair will remain DHT-resistant for a substantial period of your life!

So, I believe in the future, hair transplant surgeons would simply refuse to perform fue/HST/etc until you have managed to immunise your remaining hair against DHT. Once immunised, they will then perform a high density transplant.

Here's some extra info on DP cells if you guys wanna read futher:

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/124/8/1179.full.pdf

We are so close brothers...I can smell it ;)

Wouldn't the slick bald hair follicles still have androgen-sensitive DP cells, along with the transplanted ones? Why not remove the sensitive ones and then replace them?

Also, what happens to the hair follicles which have had their DP cells removed? I haven't read up on aderans really - are DP cells from donor area taken and them mutliplied, and then transplanted?

Desmond84
12-22-2012, 05:58 PM
Wouldn't the slick bald hair follicles still have androgen-sensitive DP cells, along with the transplanted ones? Why not remove the sensitive ones and then replace them?

Also, what happens to the hair follicles which have had their DP cells removed? I haven't read up on aderans really - are DP cells from donor area taken and them mutliplied, and then transplanted?

Yes, exactly right! So, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle:

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!

Here's a little excerpt from one of the publications I found:

"The treatment area would be miniaturized follicles that are cosmetically insignificant, and the strategy would be to rejuvenate miniaturized follicles by the insertion of hair-inductive DP cells. Because the cellular target in androgenetic alopecia is the dermal papilla, providing the follicle with new, androgen-insensitive DP cells might reactivate the follicle to form a normal (terminal) hair. "

This should answer most of your questions about what Aderans & Replicel are all about:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884703/

This is a MUST read if you're planning on going down these paths once the treatments come out!

Desmond84
12-22-2012, 06:08 PM
One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:
DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them. And regardless of which one comes out first we can jump on it straight away ;)

inspects
12-22-2012, 06:12 PM
One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:
DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them. And regardless of which one comes out first we can jump on it straight away ;)

Nice find Desmond....Very Interesting....!!

I also believe the only real treatment for baldness will be stem cells.

Cheers,

-Dale-

Pate
12-22-2012, 06:13 PM
As most of you heard on the presentation, Aderans has given up on reaching the "70% response rate" target and instead are looking for genetic markers that will indicate whether you're a responder or not.

What worries me is, genetic markers were NOT on their timeline schedule back in 2010. Does this mean they are lagging behind more than 1 year as initially thought?

I actually missed the significance of that when I watched the presentation first time around and went back to watch it again. Kind of disappointing.

So they've decided the response rate has less to do with the formulation of Ji Gami or the application of it, and more to do with a genetic pre-disposition of your cells to survive the replication process and still be inductive.

In that case it looks like the response rate of Aderans will not get higher than 60%.

40% failure rate is going to mean a lot of disappointed and out-of-pocket baldies. All we can do is hope we're in the lucky 60%.

On the plus side, I don't think the genetic markers will blow the timeline out any more. They have a lot of time on their hands after they inject people to wait for the 52 week mark - most of time spent in these trials is in the waiting for 12 months to pass. Sounds like they have been working on these marker assays concurrently.

Artista
12-22-2012, 07:13 PM
Desmond, you diligent research has paid off for all of us. What you have brought to the forefront is a very logical theory based upon medical facts.Thank you brother Des'

rdawg
12-23-2012, 12:52 AM
One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:
DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them. And regardless of which one comes out first we can jump on it straight away ;)

So you're essentially saying Aderans or Replicel may have a permanent and better solution than Fin?

It doesnt seem like aderans has growth, but rather permanent maintence.

ALTHOUGH couple that with a stimulant(minoxidil+HSC) and that could be a huge and powerful combination.

What is the next step for aderans, do they have approval for phase III? or another Phase II?

Breaking Bald
12-23-2012, 09:56 AM
So what exactly would these genetic markers be? So that means they will find out beforehand whether you will respond to the treatment? So you don't have to waste your money.

Pate
12-23-2012, 03:35 PM
They said they will test for the markers after they take the biopsy. So you still need to get a 1 sq cm flap of skin taken off the back of your head and you'll still have a scar.

Presumably they will give you your money back if it turns out you don't have the markers.

But that'll depend on who's selling it. If it's one of these dodgy hair restoration clinics who will be falling over themselves to license Aderans' tech, they'll probably tell you you're a responder just because you have like one out of ten markers. Then you'll grow three new hairs and they'll use that as an excuse not to refund you.

That's what they do already when they presribe you minox and saw palmetto.

rdawg,

The markers information suggests it won't have maintenance if you're not a responder. Washenik didn't go into great details but he seems to be saying in that vid that if you don't have the genetic markers, the cells that are replicated aren't capable of generating hair.

This is probably why it took them so damn long to get through Phase II. They kept having to re-run year-long trials to try and find out why only 60% or less were responding. That's what they came up with.

Desmond84
12-24-2012, 02:00 AM
So you're essentially saying Aderans or Replicel may have a permanent and better solution than Fin?

It doesnt seem like aderans has growth, but rather permanent maintence.

ALTHOUGH couple that with a stimulant(minoxidil+HSC) and that could be a huge and powerful combination.

What is the next step for aderans, do they have approval for phase III? or another Phase II?

Yeah, I guess if you look into their presentations they are always comparing their product to Propecia, so most likely their aim is to do what Propecia does but as a once off treatment which would be great!

Histogen should at least bump you up 1-2 norwoods once it's available though.

And if you're still not happy, you can cover the rest with a transplant :)