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d3nt3dsh0v3l
08-15-2016, 03:31 PM
Hey all,

I am a 24 YO and I have spent quite a while lurking through this forum and others and you all seem quite knowledgeable. I would just like some opinions as to where I am in the balding process.

Despite having looked at many images of balding men :eek:, I am still confused as to what stage I am in. I have a somewhat small/short/not-forward-grown head and a sloped forehead, so looking at the cartoon diagrams within the Norwood chart, I really have difficulty telling if my hairline is a NW2 or NW3.

Additionally, over the last few months, I have become much more aware of the balding process and have been paying attention to the details of my hair to watch for any changes. I do shed a clump of hair in the shower daily (seems to be around 50-100), but it seems hard for me to determine whether or not it is normal as I have spent the last year growing my hair long, so visually it looks like a lot despite the count not being too high (plus I don't have a baseline to compare it to, so it could still be above the "norm" for me). I do not wake up with excessive hair on my pillow.

Recently, I have discovered (i.e. for the first time, paid attention to the fact) that the hair density on the top of my head (not necessarily originating from the vertex itself, but the very top) appears lacking. I have no idea if it was always like this or if it became more noticeable because I have grown out my hair. And because the hair is longer/curly/clumped into locks, depending on which way it is parted/brushed, the hair looks better or worse, but I mean I understand that that's exactly what people try to exploit when they use a combover. As I am 24, it wouldn't be unbelievable if I am beginning to bald. To top it all off, I had a pool-related injury to the top of my head/scalp when I was younger. That injury has left me with numbness in the top region of my scalp and possible loss of hair there as well (I never paid attention!). These factors combined with my inability to tell if I am NW2 or NW3 has made it really difficult for me to tell *how much* I have balded already. I'm only trying to get an idea of how much "time" I have left (I know that it can speed up/slow down, etc. but I am trying to figure out when it gets bad enough to need to do something about it)

I have thought a lot about what I would do when I begin balding rapidly and I don't feel comfortable with the idea of taking propecia. Minoxidil, spiro, nizoral, etc. I am ok with, but I also know that by themselves, they don't do nearly as much as when combined with finasteride. Thus, I will likely buzz it down, grow out facial hair and try to just roll with a different style.

How far along am I by now? Is it time to buzz it already? I don't want to be a combover type guy. Does anyone else have experience with this "top thinning"? How long do I have left to live? :p

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Benjamin201222
10-18-2016, 02:27 PM
First of all you have a beautiful long hair and that's a shame to lose such an nice hair (I'm sorry I know I'm sorry) but the good news is that you can slow down/maintain or even regrow someone you (little loss) you're on the beginning and I think if you lre gonna use Finasteride now you'll gonna be ok if you'll use Minox it's beautiful also but I'll start with fin to see some maintain and some regrow on the crown, if you don't get that effect from fin use Minox or switch to dut but I think the best option to check if fin alone is helping cause Minox you need to apply twice daily and that not that convenience and more expensive, start with fin but before that verify your situation with doctor before doing anything, hope to see this hair again 😍 Good luck

k9gatton
10-19-2016, 05:08 AM
The hairline looks between a Norwood one or two. Generally speaking, the hairline should be the same distance from top of nose as nostrils are from chin. So, you don't seem to be losing much ground in that direction.

The vertex puts you at a Norwood two, possibly three. The good news is that either Minoxidil or Finasteride will grow that back. In fact, that's where both medications were tested on males with androgen alopecia. It's the best place to have baldness.

Minoxidil works on the hairline as well. So does Finasteride. Finasteride has more permanent effects. Just one milligram a day should be all you need. But if you combine it with Minoxidil, you will probably be a Norwood zero before you know it. No need to buzz your hair at this phase. Keep it long if you
want.

That said, don't pay so much attention to the male Norwood scale. It's just a generalization. Many men don't follow that pattern. It recedes until between Norwood three and four, and then the vertex goes. Some men don't even lose their hairline, but follow a more "general" female Norwood pattern (top baldness first).

d3nt3dsh0v3l
10-20-2016, 03:33 PM
First of all you have a beautiful long hair and that's a shame to lose such an nice hair (I'm sorry I know I'm sorry) but the good news is that you can slow down/maintain or even regrow someone you (little loss) you're on the beginning and I think if you lre gonna use Finasteride now you'll gonna be ok if you'll use Minox it's beautiful also but I'll start with fin to see some maintain and some regrow on the crown, if you don't get that effect from fin use Minox or switch to dut but I think the best option to check if fin alone is helping cause Minox you need to apply twice daily and that not that convenience and more expensive, start with fin but before that verify your situation with doctor before doing anything, hope to see this hair again �� Good luck

Thank you very much for the compliment. I get positive feedback on my hair all the time. But it's mostly about the aesthetic and at least 50% of the time it is older women saying that they wish they had my hair. In truth, and in light of the fact that I will likely go bald, I wish I could give it to them, lol. They would get more use out of it. You know, I agree with your suggestion to verify my situation with a doctor; that's a good general rule of thumb. However, what's there to verify? If I am in general good health (I am), there are no contraindications for the medicine. But there is also no way to tell if I will get side effects.



The hairline looks between a Norwood one or two. Generally speaking, the hairline should be the same distance from top of nose as nostrils are from chin. So, you don't seem to be losing much ground in that direction.

The vertex puts you at a Norwood two, possibly three. The good news is that either Minoxidil or Finasteride will grow that back. In fact, that's where both medications were tested on males with androgen alopecia. It's the best place to have baldness.

Minoxidil works on the hairline as well. So does Finasteride. Finasteride has more permanent effects. Just one milligram a day should be all you need. But if you combine it with Minoxidil, you will probably be a Norwood zero before you know it. No need to buzz your hair at this phase. Keep it long if you
want.

That said, don't pay so much attention to the male Norwood scale. It's just a generalization. Many men don't follow that pattern. It recedes until between Norwood three and four, and then the vertex goes. Some men don't even lose their hairline, but follow a more "general" female Norwood pattern (top baldness first).

I made this post a while ago and since then I have spoken to my mother about balding men in my family and when I asked her about their balding pattern, she said they started thinning in "the center" first and the front was the last to go. I was surprised because that's exactly what I described in this post and I have been wondering why what I noticed didn't seem to fit the Norwood scale very well. Thus, I completely resonate with your comment about the scale being a generalization :) .

I will also go ahead and avoid buzzing it for now. Actually my plan as of last week was to wait around a year and reevaluate. If the spot gets worse, I will get my hair cut shorter and ask the barber for a style that accommodates the bald spot as well as possible. I envision that I will seek progressively shorter hairstyles until I eventually reach a buzz/shaved look.

As far as taking medication for prevention goes, I will admit I am perpetually tempted to "try" propecia, but I have decided that I don't think I am a good candidate. The idea of attenuating DHT levels as a solution is not appealing to me in the least. I like lifting weights and enjoy being energetic. I want to be as active as possible as I age. As my testosterone levels drop with age, my body will become more reliant on DHT to upkeep functions as it is a more potent androgen and I don't think I want to mess with that. It seems that as of right now, only medications that significantly lower DHT have any profound effect on stopping the hairloss at the root cause (no pun intended), so there is really no way around accepting this if I want to actually fight the balding. DHT put hair on my chest, gave me a nice beard and helps me gain strength in the gym. While this is more of a sentiment than scientific reasoning, it does make me feel as though I will be better off if I keep these levels in the normal range for most of my life.

There are of course the practical/common fears about side effects also. If I take the drug, I have to accept the responsibility of risking my libido, energy and mental capacity to keep my hair. I am currently pursuing a PhD in engineering; this is a big part of my life so I don't think it is wise to risk my mental health. Of course nobody wants to lose any of those things anyway. Assuming the odds are not in my favor and I get side effects when I take the drug, I will have two unfortunate choices - stay on the drug, hoping that things will get better and risking the chance of things getting worse, or accept that I am a "bad responder," go off the drug, and hope I will get back to normal, which I may or may not.

Alternately, if I am an "average responder" (slight loss in libido, mild manageable sides, etc.) or even a "good responder," and perceive no side effects, then I will have to take it for years on end in order to keep my hair for years on end. But then what? Some have reported that it wasn't until they got off the drug many years later that they realized that they in fact had side effects that just crept in slowly. I mean this isn't a huge deal if they were still manageable. Others have managed to take the drug without side effects for upward of a decade before they suddenly set in. Then there are some who are great responders only until they decide to quit and afterward begin to experience symptoms of hypogonadism; one of the "theories" as to why this occurs is that too much of a step change is applied the HPTA when one quits "cold turkey" and the results is some form of damage to the HPTA. One may attempt to taper the dosage to ween off the drug, but there are also reports online of people who attempted this without success, perhaps in part to the steep dose-response of the drug, or even perhaps because prolonged androgen deprivation may lead to irreversible changes in the body. There are also those who underwent treatment for a short period of time (young people) and emerged "almost" back to normal, but never completely recovered; these guys paid a price for very little return as they continued to lose the hair upon discontinuing the drug anyway. And of course there are those who are extremely unfortunate and experience a complete lack of libido and permanent side effects, albeit they are the minority. They have my sympathy.

One "solution" to avoiding the side effects upon stopping fin would be to plan on never stopping. I am not comfortable with the responsibility of depending on finasteride for life, and I also am disturbed that this "solution" only prolongs the period of androgen deprivation. Then there is the issue of having trouble conceiving a child while taking finasteride and what the effects of altering sperm quality will be on my offspring. In the end, I would have to coordinate coming off the drug to conceive, hope that I don't lose too much ground on my hairline, hope that my sperm count is high enough, and then hope that my child turns out alright etc., and then eventually plan to go back on the drug. Thus, I will still have to risk the onset of new side effects through that process. Another related issue is that there are no guarantees for how long finasteride will remain effective. Several studies have shown the possibility of diminishing returns with time (years). Some have opted to resolve this by simply increasing the dosage but again, I don't find this strategy or event his entire path very appealing at all.

I have no doubt that finasteride will help my hair. But of course so would becoming a eunuch or having been born a girl, lol :p. Of course I mean that jokingly and I am very happy for those who have made the decision to take propecia and have experienced an improvement in the quality of their hair and life. I completely understand what having hair can mean in terms of confidence and self-image and can respect their decision to try to keep their domes covered; after all, I am proud of my mane also! My problem is I would like a solution that is further downstream in the process, rather than altering my endocrine system significantly and for a very prolonged period of time just to keep the hair in place. Hell, because the chance of getting side effects is relatively low, I would probably even take finasteride if I could be assured that its response won't change with time. If there were some indicator such as "If you don't get side effects within 3 weeks, congrats - you'll never have the onset of side effects for the rest of your life, at any point in time, and regardless of how often you start and stop the drug." In truth, I would feel much more comfortable about attempting to cycle steroids than take Finasteride. I know that the analogy is not exact because the former involves supraphysiological levels of androgens, but a simple cycle has well established protocols that minimize side effects, can be tracked via periodic bloodwork, and has an endpoint. One of the biggest downsides is that your testosterone levels may never recover to pre-cycle leves, but at least TRT is an available solution to that problem and is covered by insurance; this situation is not ideal, but what I mean is that the problem and the remedy are well identified and understood. What bothers me most about PFS is that the bloodwork comes back normal and no solutions exist to even the onset of mild but persistent side effects (i.e. I can still get it up but my erections have not been as strong since I came off the drug).

I would love to keep my hair into my old age! If something like RCH-01 is proven safe, I would be interested in trying it! Perhaps when I get older and have more money, I may opt for a transplant if I have enough donor hairs and am not too bald. Even scalp micropigmentation seems very reasonable to me. If I am truly desperate and find that life itself is barren without hair, I can place my money and effort into wearing lace wigs for the rest of my life. Sure, I'll never have long flowing hair again, but I'll can have an "average," neatly combed hairstyle with a wig. I have no qualms about the basic idea of using a solution to fix hairloss.

But if luscious locks in my 30s are not in the cards for me, I think I should move on to working on other aspects of my life. Some of my favorite people are bald and I never think twice about their lack of hair. It is unfortunate that I will lose some of my aesthetic by losing my hair but I have a feeling that life will be alright :D .

If I am misinformed, unaware or otherwise incorrect in my understanding of hairloss and the technology available to fight it, please let me know! Thanks for taking time to respond.

tomhank15111995
10-20-2016, 07:24 PM
Here is my headache, I need solutions

k9gatton
10-21-2016, 04:29 AM
If I am misinformed, unaware or otherwise incorrect in my understanding of hairloss and the technology available to fight it, please let me know! Thanks for taking time to respond.


You have to be comfortable in your decisions for yourself. If you are in a good mental state and feel uncomfortable taking a medication, then you definitely should not take it. There's no shame in that.

It wasn't until I was in my forties that I started taking liquid Finasteride. The amount I take is very small as well.

Everybody responds differently. Don't let people bully you into taking something you don't want to. Those people will not have to deal with the possible side effects you have.

It's your body. Your peace of mind.

Benjamin201222
10-21-2016, 08:17 PM
I agree with the man behind me ^ you need to think about it if you ready to deal with potential side effects and how much the hair is important to you, some people don't cares some people cares less some people cares a lot do your math, think about it carefully and I Hope if yu decide to treat you'll not have any side, and if you'll think the treatment is not for you I hope you'll feel like you feel with the hair on cause you know man, after all it's only a ****ing hair :D

tomhank15111995
10-21-2016, 08:49 PM
okkk, thanks guy :D

Ravenar
11-21-2016, 03:16 AM
I absolutely love your hair and those little curls you got going on! I have long too but straight. Wanna trade?