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View Full Version : Relax, minoxidil isn't aging you.



dm90
04-29-2016, 09:35 AM
The Murrad, Pinell study was an Invitro study. Well as any scientist will tell you, outcomes can change completely when an Invivo study is conducted. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3985251/#B27 Study done on applying topical 2 and 5% minoxidil on burn patients. Heres a snipit "

"In contrast to its stimulatory effects on epithelial cells, minoxidil has been shown to have a variety of inhibitory effects on fibroblasts in-vitro."

"Despite use of high minoxidil doses and the least irritating formulations, inhibitory effects were not demonstrated."

The only thing you have to fear about minoxidil is that it might not work for you

Artista
04-29-2016, 10:02 AM
Good thread posting about minoxidil Dm90.
I started using minoxidil back in November of 2015, last year.
Its been 5 months now that I have been using it twice a day, every day.
I have NOT experienced any bad-sides from it and actually, I started to see a positive difference
to my hairline after approx 3+ months into it.
Today of course, I am also seeing more of a very GOOD positive change to my hairline due to
Dr. Wesley's very good FUE transplants!! Hair transplantation growth takes a long time to finish but minoxidil very much HELPED as well!!!
It was in November of 2015 last year that I became Dr. Wesley's second patient of his 3rd Pilofocus Phase Testings (its still on going with quite a few more PT patients)
Dr. Wesley is the doctor that started me on minoxidil as well.
He is such a very good and sincere man!!

Artista
04-29-2016, 12:30 PM
Why in the world would you go on an attack and insult here Herbaliser?

I shared with Dm90 my own experience in using minoxidil.
I've only been on it since Nov. 2015 and to this day I have NOT felt or had any bad-sides from its usage.
In fact, it's helping to improve my hairline and its ongoing!

dm90
04-29-2016, 12:48 PM
Where do I even begin with you? I've read your posts and was hoping I wouldn't have to address you personally, because frankly I think you're a moronic wack job. Anyway, here it goes. Firstly I am making my own conclusions through the clinical studies I have looked over. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2826267 Here is the famous Murrad Pinell study that first discovered minoxidils inhibitory effect on the lysyl hydroxylase enzyme. One thing that stood out to me was that the minoxidil solution was applied directly to skin fibroblasts invitro. Well you see I have done graduate research in biochemistry, specifically in pharmacology, and so I already knew that invitro doesnt always, and infact rarely does, directly translate to invivo studies. I dont use minoxidil but the one thing that I cant stand is baseless fearmongering, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theorists. Ironically you fit into all three of those categories. Anyway I knew that the promise of the murrad study was that minoxidil could be used as an antifibrotic agent so I went to the good old ncbi.gov and searched for studies to see if the invivo results supported the invitro ones. Well they didnt, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24734077, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15908192, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9326711. All three of these studies concluded that minoxidil does collagen tensile strength and concentration when applied topically invivo. Minoxidil failed as antifibrotic because it just doesnt inhibit collagen invivo. I went back to my trusty ncbi site and searched for minoxidils effect on various systems. Well it turns out topical minoxidil is actually REALLY SAFE?! WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT?! The two systems effected the most by the compound are the integumentary system, specifically the epithelial and connective tissue, and the cardiac system. Well topical minoxidil increases cardiac output by 1-3 bpm, i shuoldnt have to tell you thats not very much. As far as the epithelial tissue, well as ive said minoxidil doesnt actually decrease collagen latice tensile strength, so no thats not an issue either. Well what about acromegally? Acromegally was observed in an individual taking 50mg of minoxidil orally over a ten year period. This is five times the standard dose of minoxidil. Well topical minoxidil at 5% concentration is 50mg/1ml. However minxoidil has a very poor absorption rate and at best only 75% will permeate the epithelial tissue. Well that leaves at a maximum of 37.5mg. Next take into account that only 0.1-3% of minoxidil goes systemic. That leaves a little of 1mg of minoxidil circulating through your blood. There are so many more things I could explain to you but i just dont feel like it. Everything I've stated can be supported with studies. Youre the one who needs to actually research the ludicrous statements you make instead of just "googling" it.

dm90
04-29-2016, 01:11 PM
Why in the world would you go on an attack and insult here Herbaliser?

I shared with Dm90 my own experience in using minoxidil.
I've only been on it since Nov. 2015 and to this day I have NOT felt or had any bad-sides from its usage.
In fact, it's helping to improve my hairline and its ongoing!

I think he just likes to go on rants, if he has read any of my posts he would know I support my statements with studies and facts and I leave the reader to decide the safety for themselves. And I'm glad you were the first one to respond BexuSe that's why I made this post, to discredit a popular belief that would prevent someone from trying a medication that could improve their situation.

PatientlyWaiting
04-29-2016, 07:16 PM
I use minoxidil and I have had pretty good results, I recommend it, but use it at normal dose. With that said, minoxidil did age my skin when I was overdosing. The aging of the skin reversed when I lowered the dosage I was putting on my head. But it was obvious with flash, to normal eye it wasn't. It was giving me "senile spots" on my head where I was applying iy and I was only 22 years old.

What I always say is, just like finasteride gives some people sexual side effects but it may not give you side effects, just be grateful you don't get the side effects other people get. I use finasteride and never had sexual side effects, but I would never sit here and call those who do crazy or that they are making it up. Our bodies react differently to different drugs. I don't understand why people who don't experience side effects of something just can't be grateful and move on,and stop calling those who do "crazy" people.

dm90
04-29-2016, 10:07 PM
Flash will bring out blemishes in pretty much everyone, also I don't doubt you experience eye darkening, you didn't explicitly say it, but that's a common report among users. This is possible. Minoxidil does cause angiogenesis, which definitely can cause raccoon eyes. But the studies I have posted do not agree with the held belief that minoxidil ages the skin. And this isn't self reported sides, I absolutely believe fin sides are real I mean common sense dictates it. However three separate studies have shown minoxidil
Does not affect collagen in vitro and I'm Inclined to follow the science. I don't mean any offense but this, there's just a lot of anxiety surrounding these treatments and I'm just trying to find the Truth in it for everyone's sake .

Herbaliser
04-29-2016, 10:14 PM
https://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/textthread.cfm?catid=10&threadid=85379

It goes to a certain amazement point, and therefore i use the word morons.
Some of you do live in a strange safety bubble, and need a wake up call, since itīs still drugs we are talking about.

PatientlyWaiting
04-30-2016, 06:35 AM
Flash will bring out blemishes in pretty much everyone, also I don't doubt you experience eye darkening, you didn't explicitly say it, but that's a common report among users. This is possible. Minoxidil does cause angiogenesis, which definitely can cause raccoon eyes. But the studies I have posted do not agree with the held belief that minoxidil ages the skin. And this isn't self reported sides, I absolutely believe fin sides are real I mean common sense dictates it. However three separate studies have shown minoxidil
Does not affect collagen in vitro and I'm Inclined to follow the science. I don't mean any offense but this, there's just a lot of anxiety surrounding these treatments and I'm just trying to find the Truth in it for everyone's sake .

Yeah, darkening under the eyes happened to me also when I overdosed, but I didn't notice it, instead friends and family pointed it out, then I noticed it. But the blemishes you speak of, that appear with flash, these weren't appearing before minoxidil, or after I lowered the dose. It happened in the several months I was overdosing, then it went back to normal, they faded away when I lowered the dose. Some people are susceptible to these side effects, others are not. Unfortunately I am. I have seen people getting accused of "following the crowed", the thing is that most people, me included, notice these side effects and then look for people experiencing them. Some people like to accuse those who experience side effects of reading forums and only then saying they too have side effects. With me, I saw the side effects and never read about them before, then found other members experiencing the same thing. I believe minoxidil can definitely age the skin and give you dark circles if you use too much, like more 5% or use more than 2ML of 5% per day. If it doesn't do it to you, well it's just like fin doesn't affect me but it affects others.

PatientlyWaiting
04-30-2016, 06:41 AM
When I used Dr Lee's 15% or something like that, had azelaic acid and I think also like a percentage of fin, that was when it was even more noticeable. I think it's not wise to use more than 5%, or use too much of 5% in a day.

These studies that show that minoxidil does not age the skin, that's great, what can I say. I won't call them liars, but I will say I experienced it and i'm not a liar either, and i'm a huge fan of minoxidil solution. It has done a lot for me. Even by itself it saved my hair by stopping the hair loss. Kirkland's 5% is a savior, so cheap too, it worked so well. I'm 3 months in.

alam962
04-30-2016, 07:20 AM
Artista and patieny waiting did u guys faced shedding while using minox and if yes then when the shedding got stopped??? in how many weeks or months??? i am curious to know cause i am using minox since last 2 months but still shedding heavily....

Artista
04-30-2016, 09:36 AM
Hello there Alam962!
To respond to your question:
"...did u guys faced shedding while using minox and if yes then when the shedding got stopped?"

I have been on minoxidil since November of 2015 and I personally have NOT experienced any type of shedding that you mentioned.
Alam' you say that you have shedding.
Could you possibly show 'before and after' photos of your scalp to show that you are truly experiencing that?
Hopefully you are not stressed out over anything bro.

dm90
04-30-2016, 12:37 PM
When I used Dr Lee's 15% or something like that, had azelaic acid and I think also like a percentage of fin, that was when it was even more noticeable. I think it's not wise to use more than 5%, or use too much of 5% in a day.

These studies that show that minoxidil does not age the skin, that's great, what can I say. I won't call them liars, but I will say I experienced it and i'm not a liar either, and i'm a huge fan of minoxidil solution. It has done a lot for me. Even by itself it saved my hair by stopping the hair loss. Kirkland's 5% is a savior, so cheap too, it worked so well. I'm 3 months in.

Safe dosing is very important. As you said early you only experienced the skin altering effects when you were taking too much. Since everything i've found has only tested currently approved concentrations, what you say could very well be true. In the study conducted on the man who developed acromegally, his skin underwent alot of changes. I think they even speculated that the long term use of a high dose of oral minoxidil caused collagen to increase by alot, this is not something you want. They speculated that perhaps the cell population that was resistent to minox inhibitory effects grew rapidly. So yeah too much of anything is bad, and you give good advice on proper dosing. I should say that oral minoxidil does not apply to this topic, I think there is a very good chance oral minoxi can cause negative effects on the skin.

JohnMPB
04-30-2016, 11:08 PM
Safe dosing is very important. As you said early you only experienced the skin altering effects when you were taking too much. Since everything i've found has only tested currently approved concentrations, what you say could very well be true. In the study conducted on the man who developed acromegally, his skin underwent alot of changes. I think they even speculated that the long term use of a high dose of oral minoxidil caused collagen to increase by alot, this is not something you want. They speculated that perhaps the cell population that was resistent to minox inhibitory effects grew rapidly. So yeah too much of anything is bad, and you give good advice on proper dosing. I should say that oral minoxidil does not apply to this topic, I think there is a very good chance oral minoxi can cause negative effects on the skin.

DM great find. Do not leave this forum. We need more scientific minded people like yourself.

What is your full regimen btw?

dm90
05-03-2016, 09:25 PM
As of right now I've been on fin 1.25 mg every day for about 5-6 years. However I just began adding 0.5mg dut everyday. While my hairloss isnt detectable, I'm slowly strengthening my regiment to what I consider a "functional" cure. After I'm going to add RU after I dut reaches a steady state and wait six months. The goal of this is to see how my hair reacts when ALL androgen stimuli are removed. After that point I will add 10% compounded minoxidil with 0.1 hydrocortisone. 10% once a day should technically be as good as 5% twice a day and the added hydrocortisone is to maximize the phenol sulfatransferase activity. I'm adding these one at a time so I can decide if one medication is really making the difference. Dut will take care of 98% type 2 in the dermal papilla, RU will prevent whats left from binding to the AR. This regime theoretically makes hairloss impossible, but some may disagree with me. Also this won't leave anything standing in minoxidil's way IF i'm a responder if nothing changes then I am absolutely not a minoxidil responder. My hairloss is rather "minor" due to jumping on fin at 20, however this is more of a test born from curiosity. I want to see how effective a combination this strong is. All my medications are purchased at legitimate US pharmacies.

JohnMPB
05-03-2016, 10:15 PM
As of right now I've been on fin 1.25 mg every day for about 5-6 years. However I just began adding 0.5mg dut everyday. While my hairloss isnt detectable, I'm slowly strengthening my regiment to what I consider a "functional" cure. After I'm going to add RU after I dut reaches a steady state and wait six months. The goal of this is to see how my hair reacts when ALL androgen stimuli are removed. After that point I will add 10% compounded minoxidil with 0.1 hydrocortisone. 10% once a day should technically be as good as 5% twice a day and the added hydrocortisone is to maximize the phenol sulfatransferase activity. I'm adding these one at a time so I can decide if one medication is really making the difference. Dut will take care of 98% type 2 in the dermal papilla, RU will prevent whats left from binding to the AR. This regime theoretically makes hairloss impossible, but some may disagree with me. Also this won't leave anything standing in minoxidil's way IF i'm a responder if nothing changes then I am absolutely not a minoxidil responder. My hairloss is rather "minor" due to jumping on fin at 20, however this is more of a test born from curiosity. I want to see how effective a combination this strong is. All my medications are purchased at legitimate US pharmacies.

Strong regimen. Are you adding the dut to your daily fin? I assume you're taking dut .5mg daily since you reference 98% 5ar inhibition, correct?

Let me know how your RU trial goes. What strength RU solution will you use? Ppg/ethanol vehicle or using stemox?

I've recently been looking at using murray Ave apothecary for compounded minox but they don't offer 10%. Who do you plan on using?

Ever thought about adding a sod like tricomin or folligen? What about niz? You would have pretty much all proven bases covered:
-internal 5ar inhibitor
-topical anti androgen
-growth stim
-sod
-anti inflammatory/antiandrogen shampoo

dm90
05-03-2016, 11:03 PM
Yeah, I started adding 0.5 mg dut, haven't stopped taking fin, although its completely unnecessary to take both there is also no harm in it and I like consistency LOL. I believe that 98% inhibition is crucial for this regiment.

I am still debating on whether or not I will use 50mg or just maximize the dose to 100mg, I have all the materials I'll just take some further thought. Ill be using the ppg/ethanol vehicle

As for murrays I plan on using the 12.5 with the hydrocortison addition. 25mg extra topical minoxidil daily is just like adding 0.5ml more to your scalp, lots of people do this and some minoxidil never makes it through the scalp so I dont expect any problem with this.

There are a couple studies showing copper peptides to be quite effective at stimulating hair growth. Personally I think they work I just have zero experience with them. (a side note, i may be adding melatonin to the minoxidil, this would cover the oxidative stress aspect of hairloss)

Hopefully the hydrocortisone takes care of the inflammation and the dut/RU take care of the androgen aspect. However to be honest the only reason I dont use KETO shampoos like nizoral is because they are impossible to find in stores where i live :/

dm90
05-03-2016, 11:14 PM
Oh and I nearly forgot, and I feel this is potentially pretty big news. Hellouser recorded Dr. Andy Goren giving his presentation on minixodil response test in women and theres some promising news in the presentation. This thread went more or less ignored because most people write minoxidil off as ineffective for them. However starting at around 10:25 he explains they discovered patients who did not respond to minxoidil had about 1/2 the necessary amount of sulfatransferase enzymatic activity. More importantly he then explains that doubling the dose would probably cause a non responder to respond.

well the site wont let me post the video but just google andy goren female minoxidil and start at 10:25. Theoretically if hydrocortisone really upregulates sulfatransferase as much as the study I found, you wont even need to up the dose.

JohnMPB
05-03-2016, 11:55 PM
Is hydrocortisone safe for daily use for potentially decades as a topical?

Also if you're in the states any big chain pharmacy or big box store should habe niz. Or order online?

dm90
05-04-2016, 12:13 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21771098 at 1% twice daily no dermal atrophy was observed however the study was only conducted for 4 weeks. The compounded minoxidil only uses 0.1%. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8077298 apparently 20nM, or nano moles, achieves the greatest increase of sulfatransferase upregulation. 0.1% has 1mg which is about 2700000 nano moles. So technically this should exceed the dose for maximum upregulation by 135,000x while being only 1/20th of the dose shown NOT to show dermal atrophy.

Alk
05-04-2016, 12:18 PM
Personally, I do believe minox aged my skin and gave me dark circle for the eight months I used it. Maybe i was very sensitive but wrinkles on my forehead were much more noticable at the peak of treatment and then became much less noticable after discontinuation. To be honest i'm now more concerned about heart issues related to minox then skin aging. It is concerning how many people have reported this effect of skin aging.

dm90
05-09-2016, 05:40 PM
Its a positive feedback loop through group paranoia. Skin is just sensitive to diet, sleep schedule, water intake and a whole mess of other things. One day my skin will look absolutely terrible, especially with flash, but the next day it looks youthful. When people are reporting sides involving skin aging they are making two assumptions. The first one is that minoxidil is actually inhibiting the lysyl hydroxylase enzyme and that its diffusing well enough that its inducing this effect on facial skin. We know that minoxidil has a very poor rate of diffusion and only 1-4% of the total dosage even goes systematic. The study I posted demonstrated that the collagen content was the same in both the control and treatment group. A histological assay was done on the area where the minoxidil was directly applied and no inhibitory effect was observed. The whole reason that scientists even took notice of the invitro inhibitory effect was that it showed promise of being used as an antifibrotic. They were not concerened with whether or not rogaine was aging someone. The in-vitro studies did not support the in-vitro studies. I realize there will be more and more reports of "well minoxidil aged my skin" but I have presented verifiable evidence that this does not occur. Everyone is entitled to their own belief about this compound, but rest assure there is evidence supporting that you're going to be ok. This thread is mainly for the individuals who are benefiting from minoxidil but perhaps are affraid to continue the treatment.

PatientlyWaiting
05-09-2016, 05:57 PM
Its a positive feedback loop through group paranoia. Skin is just sensitive to diet, sleep schedule, water intake and a whole mess of other things. One day my skin will look absolutely terrible, especially with flash, but the next day it looks youthful. When people are reporting sides involving skin aging they are making two assumptions. The first one is that minoxidil is actually inhibiting the lysyl hydroxylase enzyme and that its diffusing well enough that its inducing this effect on facial skin. We know that minoxidil has a very poor rate of diffusion and only 1-4% of the total dosage even goes systematic. The study I posted demonstrated that the collagen content was the same in both the control and treatment group. A histological assay was done on the area where the minoxidil was directly applied and no inhibitory effect was observed. The whole reason that scientists even took notice of the invitro inhibitory effect was that it showed promise of being used as an antifibrotic. They were not concerened with whether or not rogaine was aging someone. The in-vitro studies did not support the in-vitro studies. I realize there will be more and more reports of "well minoxidil aged my skin" but I have presented verifiable evidence that this does not occur. Everyone is entitled to their own belief about this compound, but rest assure there is evidence supporting that you're going to be ok. This thread is mainly for the individuals who are benefiting from minoxidil but perhaps are affraid to continue the treatment.

That's just wrong. One day it looks it's aging and the next day it's gone, who said that?

Why can't you just like minoxidil and also admit that some people may get sides?

I use minoxidil and it gives me these aging sides and dark circles, I can admit that and still admit it's a good drug hair loss.

dm90
05-09-2016, 06:15 PM
That's just wrong. One day it looks it's aging and the next day it's gone, who said that?

Why can't you just like minoxidil and also admit that some people may get sides?

I use minoxidil and it gives me these aging sides and dark circles, I can admit that and still admit it's a good drug hair loss.

I'm saying that depending on the lighting or current physical condition the appearance of skin can drastically change.

Because thats asking me to accept anecdotal reports over multiple scientific studies. Given the choice to believe internet forums or histological data I will choose the later. The reports of dark cirlces can be credible in my opinion. Angiogenisis was observed in the treatment group. Due to minoxidils poor diffusion rate this can be avoided by careful application.

Alk
05-09-2016, 10:48 PM
Although the study is clear; this isnt the most concrete evidence that minox doesnt age ur skin. It may not have stopped the healing process but these mice were only given minox once a day for 21 days. There are many studies in vitro and the study even states to reject its possible effects as an antifibrotic agent, more objective animal models should be developed and studied. Minox definetly goes systematic if 2% minox can effect left ventricle mass as explained in this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1386573/.

Some ppl get sides some dont.

dm90
05-10-2016, 12:07 AM
Yes good catch, these studies were done over a short period of time. However, minoxidils inhibiting effects have been observed to occur almost immediately. I will admit the acromegally does raise some questions however. Its basically the only case study of REALLY serious side effects of minoxidil, and it occured over a period of 10 years. The theory that a form of "selection" occured allowing the resistant fibroblasts to multiply unchecked is definitely unnerving. However skin aging is usually something reported after only a few months or years of topical use. The study you posted is a good addition to this conversation. Minoxidils effects on ventricals is well documented and quite scary.

michel sapin
06-29-2016, 03:39 AM
hey dm , so you are sure that minoxidil can't age your skin ? Ive been paranoid about this effect since ive started . Moreover i'm way worse than baseline after 5 month , do you think i will recover?

dm90
06-29-2016, 03:45 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9326711
"Minoxidil did not demonstrate significant inhibition of wound contraction rates"
"These observations do not support the proposed use of minoxidil as an "antifibrotic" agent."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3985251/
"Main histological findings regarding minoxidil topical usage showed that collagen content and tensile strength of burned area did not differ between groups."
"Although minoxidil improved the process of wound-healing, our results did not support the proposed idea of its usage as an antifibrotic agent. However, to reject its possible effects as an antifibrotic agent, more objective animal models should be developed and studied."

Its important to understand the difference between in-vitro and in-vivo. Minoxidil applied directly to cultured fibroblasts shows a significant inhibitory effect on collagen formation. However, In-vitro is not a good model for understanding the actual mechanism of a compound. Orgasms are extremely complex with untold number of molecular interactions. Isolating one cell and applying a compound to it isn't representative of the biological model. Minoxidil showed nearly complete inhibition of lysyl hydroxylase, the enzyme responsible for collagen formation, at 2nM and cytotoxcitiy at 4nM. These are approximately 1/100th the dose of 2% minoxidil. 5% showed no effect on collagen content in any in-vivo study. Think of it this way, if minoxidil could kill off nearly all collagen maturing enzyme the result would be horrific. The only serious skin complication reported from minoxidil was actually deposition of too much collagen, this guy was taking an extremely high dose of 50mg daily for 10 years. Even this extreme case of pseudoacromegally reversed itself over time.



To sum up, there are a lot of anecdotal reports of minoxidil aging skin, however the science doesn't appear to support this phenomena. Everyone is entitled to believe what they do, but I personally do not believe 5% topical minoxidil exhibits any aging effects on skin.

Are you using fin or dut? If so how long have you paired it with minoxidil? The thing about minoxidil is consistence is so important. If you decide to treat your hairloss with these drugs you need to be diligent.

Disclaimer
I'm just a person with a scientific education not a doctor (not that anyone thought that lol)

Never2bald
08-05-2016, 12:59 AM
Hi
Im new to this forum..been using 5% minox for about 5 months..hair has thickened to the point where my hairdresser commented on its density. Only thing is the dark eye circles. How can i carefully apply the solution to avoid this?
I only apply less than 1ml at night with a dropper

Never2bald
08-09-2016, 12:55 AM
Can somebody help me on this please

Topgun322
09-17-2016, 05:21 PM
Minoxidil definitely is making my face swell a little under my eyes. I went off it and it cleared up. But guess what my hair got worse. So I'm back on it because it's not that bad and I have no other options right now

Artista
09-30-2016, 07:14 AM
Hello again, Mhairtransplant!
As I had stated here on this thread some time ago,
I have been on Minoxidil since November 2015 with no side effects.

I started on Finasteride back in 2013 and I never experienced any side effects from it.
I (and my wife) started seeing a positive percentage of change from its use.
About a year into its usage, my scalp was seriously showing improvements!
To this day, I am using it without any bad side effects !! Thats the truth.
Cheers everyone!!