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hellouser
07-23-2013, 11:08 PM
As a result of the recent dermarolling study (found here (http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;a ulast=Dhurat) and discussed here (http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13348)), a crossforum trial has been proposed to attempt to emulate and enhance the results of the study. Members of the private forums and public forums are free to join in and the results will be made public on every forum, regardless of participation. If you are interested in participating, please let me know.

Participation minimally requires a 1.5mm dermaroller and an agreement to take monthly photos. You may have any current treatment regimen, but before joining the trial you must provide your detailed regimen. Participation does not require a membership to any private forum.

You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted.

The trial groups will be as follows:

A. Dermarolling + Minox (Study Control)
B. Dermarolling + PGE2 Daily + Minox
C. Dermarolling + PGE2 Daily + minox + PGD2 inhibitor (OC-Ethanol higher dose than previously used)

Within the PGE2 and PGD2 inhibitors use will be various concentrations. Each group was designed based on past studies demonstrating the role of PGE2, FGF9 and PGD2 in wounding induced neogenesis. For those unfamiliar, the team behind Follica have demonstrated that elevated levels of PGD2 inhibit the promotive effects of wounding and that the overexpression of FGF9 results in three to four times improved results in vivo. PGE2 is known to induce FGF9 over a 24 hour period in a bell response curve.

PGE2 and PGD2 will be purchased from Kane.

If interested please say so. Further, indicate which trial group you are interested in and any drugs you are currently taking. As stated, this is a trial being undertaken for the whole hair loss community not any one single forum. The results will be made publicly available per the organizers intentions.

Dermarollers are relatively cheap, between $10-20 on eBay. It would also be beneficial if members willing to take part in the trial posted their dermaroller as well.

huawei
07-23-2013, 11:23 PM
I'll join in however I'll be starting propecia in conjunction with minox and nizoral next week as well. So maybe add a group E for outliers doing their own thing.

I'll be sure to give it a go on my hair line at least.

HARIRI
07-23-2013, 11:39 PM
This is an interesting video about Microneedles and Minoxidil on You Tube:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc

Borealis
07-24-2013, 04:07 AM
I'll be using Minoxidil 5% twice a day except for the day I use the dermaroller. Nothing else is in my regimen.

I use Regaine 5% Foam and this dermaroller:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZGTS-Luxury-Titanium-Micro-Needle-DermaRoller-ALL-SIZES-/251203855254?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&var=&hash=item3a7ceaa396

doke
07-24-2013, 04:59 AM
Interesting i have restarted the dermoroller with my new topical and oral regrime which i have stopped using scalpmed due to cost and now on topical 5% minoxidil+antiandrogen+sucralfate 5% and avodart 0.5mgs a day as im getting some regrowth with scalpmed but the cost is way too high and 5% sucralfate does offer regrowth for mpb.

doke
07-24-2013, 07:10 AM
try this link http://www.follacure.com/t/sucralfate

doke
07-24-2013, 07:15 AM
[QUOTE=doke;136617]try this link [url]http://www.follacure.com/t/sucralfate this is the trial of sucralfate for alopecia and mpb

Knockin on NW4
07-24-2013, 08:00 AM
be sure to use at least a 1.5mm roller. expect blood and pain! i used a 1mm with minox for a few months and noticed little to no improvement. There is nothing new about derma rolling, this study just gives us some guidelines to follow. and their reults were phenomenal.


http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/alecboring/Bl7uZ9N_zps1bcdafb8.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/alecboring/media/Bl7uZ9N_zps1bcdafb8.jpg.html)

stilltrying
07-24-2013, 09:35 AM
I will probably use this in combination with Minoxidil, but the chance is high that I will also add finasteride within a month. Otherwise I would gladly participate. I love the idea, even though it's always hard to make sure people are not using other methods. I would only recommend to also include a group for those who are only on Minoxidil and are not interested in adding the dermaroller.

Knockin on NW4
07-24-2013, 04:45 PM
in that video, the guy doesnt understand how wounding works, positive results are not from increased absorption, but from the natural expression of growth factors post wounding. thats why u need to wait at least 5-7 days between wounding sessions.

Pge2 increases fgf9 expression wich allows for folicle neogenesis post wounding. without pge2 or minox, wich increases pge2 :) , folicle neogenesis cant occur, just scarring that can inhibit growth. This is essentially Follica's method.


yes rolling increases absorption, but that isnt the goal of this trial. thats why they did not apply minox 24hr after wounding in the study, to rule out increased absorption being the cause of regrowth. and u MUST wait at least five days bewteen roll sesions for the body to express these growth factors .


ps 1mm is too short , ive tried this, go with 1.5 or 2mm, no pain no gain. unless u incorporate topical lidocaine before wounding ;)

Conpecia
07-24-2013, 05:27 PM
in that video, the guy doesnt understand how wounding works, positive results are not from increased absorption, but from the natural expression of growth factors post wounding. thats why u need to wait at least 5-7 days between wounding sessions.


READ THIS STAYTHICK. this is another reason why you shouldn't dermaroll more than once a week bud.

StayThick
07-24-2013, 06:12 PM
Knockin...what has been your experience with dermarolling? Any results from a personal stand-point?

StayThick
07-24-2013, 06:16 PM
READ THIS STAYTHICK. this is another reason why you shouldn't dermaroll more than once a week bud.

I hear you Conpecia, I'm following this thread closely...but yea, I guess that makes sense. Although I've had no issues and have seen regrowth along my stubborn hairline doing it 3x a week.

I might apply more pressure when doing this moving forward and wait the recommended 5-7 days. Let's see if these "growth factors" really come in to play.

I'm all about trying things differently or modifying what I think is right if something different mentioned on here might be more efficient.

I'll let you all know how the change effects me moving forward.

hellouser
07-24-2013, 06:25 PM
What should the dosage of PGE2 be?

According to this, the molecular weight of PGE2 is 352:

https://www.caymanchem.com/app/template/Product.vm/catalog/14010

That looks pretty light and easy to penetrate skin, should work awesome, just like RU and even better with dermarolling, perhaps best when exfoliating skin and no more than 30 minutes after washing hair since sebum is then produced which does affect penetration.

Knockin on NW4
07-24-2013, 07:16 PM
my 1.5mm will arrive friday, im going out of town this weekend so i will start monday. i used a 1mm once every 5-7 days with minox for a few months around february but didnt see enough improvement to put up with the hassle. also my old roller was a 540 count wich actually causes micro cuts instead of micro holes.... not sure if tnis had something to do with lack of results. however, it was great for getting rid of some stretch marks i had. i was quite impressed. i do shave my head with a stubble guard so the roller should get great penetration and results will be quickly noticable.



as far as pge2 dosage... no one really knows. StoicOne is getting us a great deal on some, like $125 for 50mg that should last at least a couple of months. in the vitiligo pge2 trials re pigmentation of the skin was seen with just 0.5mg daily in a topical solution. so we know that that is a safe amount and that would make 50mg last 3+ months.

tdo
07-24-2013, 08:31 PM
Knockin, how can i get on the gb for the pge2?

Knockin on NW4
07-24-2013, 08:45 PM
Knockin, how can i get on the gb for the pge2?

its through SAGA... i cant get u in there, i just joined. but maybe u can get dinoprostone, it is for inducing labour for prego chicks lol. but it is pge2. its hard to get a prescription unless u find it online or through a VERY forward thinking dermatologist

ge77inhigh
07-24-2013, 08:56 PM
Just got my 1.5 mm dermaroller from amazon for 10 bucks. Will use it 2x a week with minox and along with ru 10mg x2 for 1 hour wash and rinse. If this work then this is the cheapest effective treatment to mpb.

hellouser
07-24-2013, 10:44 PM
Would anyone advise getting a 2mm dermaroller considering it will be rolling over a head WITH hair that will make a 2mm dermaroller more like 1.5mm considering it has to go through the layer of hair?

Knockin on NW4
07-24-2013, 11:03 PM
Would anyone advise getting a 2mm dermaroller considering it will be rolling over a head WITH hair that will make a 2mm dermaroller more like 1.5mm considering it has to go through the layer of hair?

it makes since, i thought the exact same thing

bananana
07-25-2013, 12:56 AM
What do you think about this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160788001381&var=460067415191&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en)?

LED light is probably bullshit, but dermaroller looks legit. They suggest up to .75 mm for hair loss, but I guess more is better in this case.

I used .5 mm dermaroller for 2 months now, before applying divine herbal oil, and I say it helped the general condition, less itch, less oil, no regrowth so far...

I hesitate on using minox because washing my hair every day due to grease is really not so appealing. :(

doke
07-25-2013, 02:50 AM
hi why not use not greasy minox foam? also guys my mix of sucrafate has not mixed prop and the sachats are powder so it needs to be filtered it anyone else tries it also kane from kouting has said he can supply sucralfate for free if you order ru or pgd2 as he said its very cheap.
I think i will return to my scalpmed and use up the rest of the 3 months pack as i have only been using it with the silica oral and biotin for nearly a month as when i look close in the mirror im seeing very fine hairs appearing on bald areas.

JDW
07-25-2013, 05:15 AM
Just got my 1.5 mm dermaroller from amazon for 10 bucks. Will use it 2x a week with minox and along with ru 10mg x2 for 1 hour wash and rinse. If this work then this is the cheapest effective treatment to mpb.

Hey man, Any chance of showing the dermaroller you bought? Or does anyone else have any recommendations.
Thanks

bigentries
07-25-2013, 10:12 AM
What type of derma roller is everyone going to use?

I have one packed with needles, but I've seen others that have the needles very spaced.

I think that's the reason why I'm experiencing very little pain even when putting pressure, I don't think the needles are going all in

Bocaj
07-25-2013, 11:45 AM
Dermajet

doke
07-25-2013, 11:54 AM
Anyone that knows what im using scalpmed i have decided to keep the sucralfate minox till ive used up my four months products but i will have to filter the sucralfate as its not mixed properly it feels like grit on your scalp.
Jacob whats your thoughts on the sucrafate trials i posted link of?

Bocaj
07-25-2013, 06:23 PM
You'll have to remind me/repost the trials....please.

doke
07-26-2013, 05:19 AM
You'll have to remind me/repost the trials....please.

http://www.follacure.com/t/sucralfate

ok jacob:)

sosa56
07-27-2013, 10:37 AM
As a result of the recent dermarolling study (found here (http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;a ulast=Dhurat) and discussed here (http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13348)), a crossforum trial has been proposed to attempt to emulate and enhance the results of the study. Members of the private forums and public forums are free to join in and the results will be made public on every forum, regardless of participation. If you are interested in participating, please let me know.

Participation minimally requires a 1.5mm dermaroller and an agreement to take monthly photos. You may have any current treatment regimen, but before joining the trial you must provide your detailed regimen. Participation does not require a membership to any private forum.

You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted.

The trial groups will be as follows:

A. Dermarolling + Minox (Study Control)
B. Dermarolling + PGE2 Daily + Minox
C. Dermarolling + PGE2 Daily + minox + PGD2 inhibitor (OC-Ethanol higher dose than previously used)

Within the PGE2 and PGD2 inhibitors use will be various concentrations. Each group was designed based on past studies demonstrating the role of PGE2, FGF9 and PGD2 in wounding induced neogenesis. For those unfamiliar, the team behind Follica have demonstrated that elevated levels of PGD2 inhibit the promotive effects of wounding and that the overexpression of FGF9 results in three to four times improved results in vivo. PGE2 is known to induce FGF9 over a 24 hour period in a bell response curve.

PGE2 and PGD2 will be purchased from Kane.

If interested please say so. Further, indicate which trial group you are interested in and any drugs you are currently taking. As stated, this is a trial being undertaken for the whole hair loss community not any one single forum. The results will be made publicly available per the organizers intentions.

Dermarollers are relatively cheap, between $10-20 on eBay. It would also be beneficial if members willing to take part in the trial posted their dermaroller as well.

I'm not sure if I could be eligible for this trial becuae I'm on finasteride but would you be able to make available the information on how to use the dermaroller as per the trial that this community trial you are proposing is based on, I would really like to add dermarolling into my regime. Also can anyone who has tried dermarolling before and found that it helped them provide some details on the same areas i.e. how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller and also information on how to clean them?

Thanks

hellouser
07-27-2013, 10:42 AM
I'm not sure if I could be eligible for this trial becuae I'm on finasteride but would you be able to make available the information on how to use the dermaroller as per the trial that this community trial you are proposing is based on, I would really like to add dermarolling into my regime. Also can anyone who has tried dermarolling before and found that it helped them provide some details on the same areas i.e. how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller and also information on how to clean them?

Thanks

There's no reason you can't try dermarolling yourself, I think it'd be beneficial to see dermarolling + whatever else and take a look at the best results from all angles.

Try it out while on finasteride and post your results! We're all fighting this disease together :)

sosa56
07-27-2013, 10:48 AM
Would I be able to have a look at the detail instructions though even if I didn't end up posting my pics online? I know this seems a little selfish as effort has been expended to get the instructions so something should be given in return but I just don't really want to put my hair up for all to see :(. But the reason I came here in the first place is to benefit from the knowledge and resourcefulness of some of the cool members on here!

hellouser
07-27-2013, 11:05 AM
Would I be able to have a look at the detail instructions though even if I didn't end up posting my pics online? I know this seems a little selfish as effort has been expended to get the instructions so something should be given in return but I just don't really want to put my hair up for all to see :(. But the reason I came here in the first place is to benefit from the knowledge and resourcefulness of some of the cool members on here!

I have a feeling everyone will be rolling differently. Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc

I think I'm going to be using a similar approach;

4 times up and down, 4 times side to side, 4 times diagonally and another 4 times diagonally on the other direction and then finish it off with general rolling all over the head. Keep in mind that he says there's no blood when he uses the microneedling, but that may not be a good thing, as it may mean he's not going in deep enough. The theory is that microneedling will cause wounding, similar to Follica's treatment, which when used with Minoxidil will heighten levels of PGE2 and then FGF9 which may cause regrowth.

Check this video as well (ignore the PRP shit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuXJbqDlNug

You can use photobucket.com or tinypic.com to post photos of progress.

sosa56
07-27-2013, 11:28 AM
Interesting, thanks alot for posting those videos, that's really helpful. I know this isnt the right place to post this but since you seem to be online hellouser, what is your response to the point of view that regardless of all of these other treatments in the pipeline (histogen etc.) couldn't the ultimate solution for nearly everyone be to wait until CB-03-01 comes out and then get a hair transplant and then just maintain the results using CB?

hellouser
07-27-2013, 12:07 PM
Interesting, thanks alot for posting those videos, that's really helpful. I know this isnt the right place to post this but since you seem to be online hellouser, what is your response to the point of view that regardless of all of these other treatments in the pipeline (histogen etc.) couldn't the ultimate solution for nearly everyone be to wait until CB-03-01 comes out and then get a hair transplant and then just maintain the results using CB?

I have a feeling CB is just finasteride on steroids... literally, as CB is a steroid, lol. The benefit is that its supposed to be 4X as effective without a drop in libido or the risk of erectile dysfunction. However, I don't believe at all that CB will create new hair follicles, but rather improve density and perhaps work a little around the hairline with miniaturized hairs. Bald spots, I'm almost certain, will remain as bald spots. I don't even think replicel, histogen or aderans could do anything about bald spots. Thats where either Jahoda, Lauster, Tsuji labs or the IBN team in Singapore... or perhaps a combination of Replicel/Histogen plus a hair transplant. There's also Follica which is apparently working on a wounding device to use with FGF9 to regenerate hair follicles, though that is the whole point of the dermarolling experiment, a cheap mans versions of Follica. Let's hope it works. Perhaps we could have some success with minox + wounding + pge2 + pgd2 inhibitors + dht inhibitors.

We should all try and maintain regardless, CB is the most promising though.

I suppose if CB does work for everyone and does regrow or at least maintain, then yes its possible that a hair transplant with CB could be a good solution where some men have had success with FUE/FUT and Finasteride while maintaining their results. Although its still a risk.

hellouser
07-28-2013, 01:07 AM
Something to think about:


In one embodiment, the present invention provides a method for generating an HF in a scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region of a subject, comprising the steps of: (a) disrupting an epidermis of the scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region; and (b) contacting the scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region with minoxidil, thereby generating an HF in a scalp, eyebrow, or scarred region of a subject.

From Cotsarelis' paper found at:

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121693?dq=ininventor:%22George+Cotsarelis%2 2&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rsSvUdH8GoXXrQHhqoH4BA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

the_dude78
07-28-2013, 09:16 AM
What type of dermaroller is recommended for this? There are some with 540 needles and some with only 192 where the needles are not as tightly spaced. Any suggestions?

hellouser
07-28-2013, 01:03 PM
What type of dermaroller is recommended for this? There are some with 540 needles and some with only 192 where the needles are not as tightly spaced. Any suggestions?

I think its all the same. 192 needles will basically mean you'd have to roll more. I'd go with the 540 needles to make sure you don't miss any spots.

Hal0
07-28-2013, 02:31 PM
Hi, i bought a 1 mm Dermaroller, this caliber is enough or i require to have the 1.5mm? Thank you

hellouser
07-28-2013, 02:37 PM
Hi, i bought a 1 mm Dermaroller, this caliber is enough or i require to have the 1.5mm? Thank you

Use at least 1.5mm, 2mm if you can. Follicles are quite deep underneath the skin. No pain, no gain!

Pentarou
07-28-2013, 06:47 PM
Regular derma-rolling isn't going to cause scarring of the scalp tissue, is it? :confused:

hellouser
07-28-2013, 08:31 PM
Regular derma-rolling isn't going to cause scarring of the scalp tissue, is it? :confused:

Women and men use it for acne, wrinkles, etc. already. I haven't heard of reported scarring so we should be fine.

greatjob!
07-28-2013, 10:52 PM
Regular derma-rolling isn't going to cause scarring of the scalp tissue, is it? :confused:

It is actually being used as a treatment for scarring, so I would think that is not an issue

PrettyFly83
07-29-2013, 01:21 AM
Hi All

First post here but long time reader.I added derma rolling to my regime about two months ago and without being overly optimistic I feel I'm getting some significant regrowth.

Quick facts, age 30, NW5 going on 6. Regime has been nothing until 3 months ago when I decided to try get some hair back before I left it too long. Started loosing at 21, NW4 at around 25 and shaved my hair No.0 since. Started Minox 3 months ago, added derma rolling 1 month in, hoping to get increased absorption. Added Vita C and MSM around same time. Been sticking to it since. Never done Finasteride but have and am still seriously considering.

Biggest plus for all reading this is that Ive been taking pics fairly frequently so maybe people can add their opinion on my presumed regrowth or not....hopefully the pic has uploaded

PrettyFly83
07-29-2013, 01:25 AM
some more zoomed in shots...didnt realize they get down scaled so much...

Arashi
07-29-2013, 06:59 AM
Can you maybe upload the pictures ? Use http://tinypic.com/ for example.
At first glance your results look very good but it's hard to tell because of the cropped pictures.

the_dude78
07-29-2013, 07:19 AM
I think its all the same. 192 needles will basically mean you'd have to roll more. I'd go with the 540 needles to make sure you don't miss any spots.

Makes sense, however this guy in the link talks about the different needle sizes, and in the comments he recommends 192 needles since 540 will only cause unnecessary trauma and damage... I will do some more research before I decide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzQisQzItIU

hellouser
07-29-2013, 07:30 AM
Makes sense, however this guy in the link talks about the different needle sizes, and in the comments he recommends 192 needles since 540 will only cause unnecessary trauma and damage... I will do some more research before I decide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzQisQzItIU

But the damage is exactly what needs to be done; wounding and regeneration with minoxidil causing a chain reaction of events... Minox --> PGE2 --> FGF9 --> Hair Follicle Neogenesis

PrettyFly83
07-29-2013, 07:31 AM
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Crown1205-2307_zps515dd798.jpg.html

Hi Arashi

Hopefully you can view this will upload the originals too

hellouser
07-29-2013, 07:34 AM
Hi All

First post here but long time reader.I added derma rolling to my regime about two months ago and without being overly optimistic I feel I'm getting some significant regrowth.

Quick facts, age 30, NW5 going on 6. Regime has been nothing until 3 months ago when I decided to try get some hair back before I left it too long. Started loosing at 21, NW4 at around 25 and shaved my hair No.0 since. Started Minox 3 months ago, added derma rolling 1 month in, hoping to get increased absorption. Added Vita C and MSM around same time. Been sticking to it since. Never done Finasteride but have and am still seriously considering.

Biggest plus for all reading this is that Ive been taking pics fairly frequently so maybe people can add their opinion on my presumed regrowth or not....hopefully the pic has uploaded

I can clearly see new hair follicles!

What kind of dermaroller are you using and how many needles does it have?

Thanks for posting!!

bananana
07-29-2013, 07:36 AM
some more zoomed in shots...didnt realize they get down scaled so much...

:O

these results are VERY good! Congrats man, there are clearly new (old) hairs growing on your scalp.

the_dude78
07-29-2013, 07:40 AM
a bit more info http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

bigentries
07-29-2013, 07:45 AM
But the damage is exactly what needs to be done; wounding and regeneration with minoxidil causing a chain reaction of events... Minox --> PGE2 --> FGF9 --> Hair Follicle Neogenesis

My guess is that less needles are better because of the pressure

Think of the bed of nails trick, the nails don't penetrate because all the pressure is well distributed. I'm afraid the same happens with dermarollers, I also have one with 540 needles and I think the reason why I don't feel too much pain is because the needles never penetrate that far

I will buy one with less needles and then report my experience

hellouser
07-29-2013, 07:50 AM
My guess is that less needles are better because of the pressure

Think of the bed of nails trick, the nails don't penetrate because all the pressure is well distributed. I'm afraid the same happens with dermarollers, I also have one with 540 needles and I think the reason why I don't feel too much pain is because the needles never penetrate that far

I will buy one with less needles and then report my experience

Excellent point! That also may hold true for getting into spots where there is already hair, should give even better penetration.

hellouser
07-29-2013, 07:52 AM
a bit more info http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

Thank you! This is great!

PrettyFly83
07-29-2013, 08:05 AM
Thanks guys

Ive been quietly optimistic about the results but every week it seems to be getting stronger. I think we're onto something here and I have to say, without this forum I would never have tried anything like this! Lets just hope those small hairs continue getting thicker and stronger but they are literally covering 80% of my previous bald spots.

My Regime detailed as follows:
1. 2 x minox (generic) morning and evening applications.
2. 1 gram Vita C & 2 grams MSM (now doing for health benefits but started because of the VitC MSM thread).
3. Weekly derma rolling with minox immediately after.
4. Nizoral Shampoo every two days.

My derma roller is a standard 0.5mm 192 needle titanium tipped model - when I researched them, various brochures said "0.5mm for hair growth through increased topical absorption". When I roll it hurts though, not sure if its because of my thin skin, lack of hair or the pressure I use. I get a lot of blood! I then minox immediately after and it burns a bit probably from the alcohol in the minox. Stops bleeding within seconds. I roll in a multiway criss cross pattern over the entire scalp.

I'll keep this regime going until end November giving it 6 months. If it works, GREAT, forum closed and we can all get on with our lives, if not add another failure to the endless list and keep trying.

Thoughts? Opinions?

This looks like mine but I have the 0.5mm model
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZGTS-Luxury-Titanium-Micro-Needle-DermaRoller-ALL-SIZES-/251203855254?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&var=&hash=item3a7ceaa396

walrus
07-29-2013, 08:12 AM
Have you noticed any regrowth on the temples?

hellouser
07-29-2013, 08:26 AM
Thanks guys

Ive been quietly optimistic about the results but every week it seems to be getting stronger. I think we're onto something here and I have to say, without this forum I would never have tried anything like this! Lets just hope those small hairs continue getting thicker and stronger but they are literally covering 80% of my previous bald spots.

My Regime detailed as follows:
1. 2 x minox (generic) morning and evening applications.
2. 1 gram Vita C & 2 grams MSM (now doing for health benefits but started because of the VitC MSM thread).
3. Weekly derma rolling with minox immediately after.
4. Nizoral Shampoo every two days.

My derma roller is a standard 0.5mm 192 needle titanium tipped model - when I researched them, various brochures said "0.5mm for hair growth through increased topical absorption". When I roll it hurts though, not sure if its because of my thin skin, lack of hair or the pressure I use. I get a lot of blood! I then minox immediately after and it burns a bit probably from the alcohol in the minox. Stops bleeding within seconds. I roll in a multiway criss cross pattern over the entire scalp.

I'll keep this regime going until end November giving it 6 months. If it works, GREAT, forum closed and we can all get on with our lives, if not add another failure to the endless list and keep trying.

Thoughts? Opinions?

This looks like mine but I have the 0.5mm model
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZGTS-Luxury-Titanium-Micro-Needle-DermaRoller-ALL-SIZES-/251203855254?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&var=&hash=item3a7ceaa396

Awesome contribution!

I think I'm gonna splurge some dough on the same dermaroller, would like to mimic what guys WITH success are using.

I'm fairly active and have been keeping a pretty detailed log of my own results, so you guys can be sure if I get results I'll post photos.

My current regimen is ONLY minoxidil and nizoral. I'm gonna be ordering CB off Kane soon and will add that to my arsenal. I will probably use RU a few times to kickstart things, probably around the time I dermaroll. I have *some* left over, but it won't last long.

JDW
07-29-2013, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the link, interesting about the smaller length, not sure to go with that or what the trial used...

hellouser
07-29-2013, 08:33 AM
Thanks for the link, interesting about the smaller length, not sure to go with that or what the trial used...

Its not a definitive answer though. Skin thickness isn't the same on every persons scalp. You're probably better off getting a 1.5mm roller as it SHOULD penetrate, anything too short and you wont cause the minimal wounding and you'll probably just end up having to get a dermaroller with longer needles.

DanWS
07-29-2013, 08:36 AM
I dont use minoxidil but I'm on fin... would it be worth me trying this out or is minoxidil essential to the results?

hellouser
07-29-2013, 08:41 AM
I dont use minoxidil but I'm on fin... would it be worth me trying this out or is minoxidil essential to the results?

Yes, its absolutely mandatory. Minoxidil is whats supposed to create regrowth, Dr. Cotsarelis' findings even state that in his published paper. I've posted a link to it in this thread.

JDW
07-29-2013, 09:08 AM
Its not a definitive answer though. Skin thickness isn't the same on every persons scalp. You're probably better off getting a 1.5mm roller as it SHOULD penetrate, anything too short and you wont cause the minimal wounding and you'll probably just end up having to get a dermaroller with longer needles.

Thanks for that, will go with 1.5mm/192 needles then as this seems to be the best combo

hellouser
07-29-2013, 09:50 AM
Found another article on wounding and dermarolling, this is just as interesting:

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/may07/hair-follicle-regeneration.html


“We showed that wound healing triggered an embryonic state in the skin which made it receptive to receiving instructions from wnt proteins,” says senior author George Cotsarelis, MD, Associate Professor of Dermatology. “The wnts are a network of proteins implicated in hair-follicle development.”

Funny how this is from 2007!!

Via: http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/dermarolling-to-promote-hair-growth-(without-minoxidil)/

Note how the source of which I found the Cotsarelis article states without minoxidil. Yet in his newer paper he states WITH minoxidil new hair follicles are created from wounding.

Perhaps we just continue wounding/dermarolling until enough hair follicles are created to cover the head completely and then call it a day... or year, lol.

hellouser
07-29-2013, 10:00 AM
I just ordered my dermaroller, 1.5mm and 192 microneedles:

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00A7XLJIW/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://mamooshop.com/images/41uCGNPCYRL.jpg

Arashi
07-29-2013, 10:53 AM
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Crown1205-2307_zps515dd798.jpg.html

Hi Arashi

Hopefully you can view this will upload the originals too

Thanks !! Truly amazing results, congratulations !!

oppenheimer82
07-29-2013, 11:10 AM
Hi All

First post here but long time reader.I added derma rolling to my regime about two months ago and without being overly optimistic I feel I'm getting some significant regrowth.

Quick facts, age 30, NW5 going on 6. Regime has been nothing until 3 months ago when I decided to try get some hair back before I left it too long. Started loosing at 21, NW4 at around 25 and shaved my hair No.0 since. Started Minox 3 months ago, added derma rolling 1 month in, hoping to get increased absorption. Added Vita C and MSM around same time. Been sticking to it since. Never done Finasteride but have and am still seriously considering.

Biggest plus for all reading this is that Ive been taking pics fairly frequently so maybe people can add their opinion on my presumed regrowth or not....hopefully the pic has uploaded

nice!

greatjob!
07-29-2013, 11:37 AM
I think I'm also going to pick up a derma roller and give this a shot. Seems easy enough and couldn't hurt. Would be pretty crazy if this ends up being a good treatment, as its been around for a while and been overlooked, probably because it seems too simple to be the solution. I will, like always, remain cautiously optimistic.

DanWS
07-29-2013, 11:43 AM
Funny how this is from 2007!!

Via: http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/dermarolling-to-promote-hair-growth-(without-minoxidil)/

Note how the source of which I found the Cotsarelis article states without minoxidil. Yet in his newer paper he states WITH minoxidil new hair follicles are created from wounding.



That's interesting.... perhaps it could be worth a shot for those of us not using minox, then. Nothing to lose I suppose.

Barron
07-29-2013, 04:39 PM
What's the consensus on applying Minox immediately after scalp rolling? The participants in the study did not apply Minox on the day they scalp rolled, while PrettyFly83, who saw great results as well, did.

When I applied Minox directly after scalp rolling, I got some pretty undesired side-effects during the hours afterwards; but applying Emu oil right afterwards is working great so far.

hellouser
07-29-2013, 04:45 PM
What's the consensus on applying Minox immediately after scalp rolling? The participants in the study did not apply Minox on the day they scalp rolled, while PrettyFly83, who saw great results as well, did.

When I applied Minox directly after scalp rolling, I got some pretty undesired side-effects during the hours afterwards; but applying Emu oil right afterwards is working great so far.

What were the side effects?

hellouser
07-29-2013, 04:51 PM
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Crown1205-2307_zps515dd798.jpg.html

Hi Arashi

Hopefully you can view this will upload the originals too

Hey PrettyFly,

Can you tell us how long you've been losing your hair?

From the before photos, you look like pretty much a full norwood 6 with almost a completely slick bald head from crown to front of head. Is this a fair assumption?

Barron
07-29-2013, 05:07 PM
I felt light headed, had an increased/rapid heart rate, and got a general feeling of uneasiness. I remember searching on the internet/forums afterwards and found some people who experienced similar effects, but also many who didn't experience anything. I also came across some general warnings...i.e: http://tiny.cc/s8c00w

greatjob!
07-29-2013, 06:58 PM
I felt light headed, had an increased/rapid heart rate, and got a general feeling of uneasiness. I remember searching on the internet/forums afterwards and found some people who experienced similar effects, but also many who didn't experience anything. I also came across some general warnings...i.e: http://tiny.cc/s8c00w

That's why you don't use minoxidil on the same day you use the derma roller

hellouser
07-29-2013, 07:40 PM
That's why you don't use minoxidil on the same day you use the derma roller

Isn't that the best window of opportunity though for maximum absorption and stimulating growth?

greatjob!
07-29-2013, 07:44 PM
Isn't that the best window of opportunity though for maximum absorption and stimulating growth?

From the study isn't is about wounding and stimulating growth pathways not absorption. In the study they didn't use minox on the days they used the dema roller. Systemic absorption of minox can be dangerous.

greatjob!
07-29-2013, 07:50 PM
From the study:


Microneedling procedure

The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure. All patients were instructed not to apply Minoxidil on the day of procedure and to resume its application only 24 h after the Microneedling procedure.

hellouser
07-29-2013, 07:53 PM
I know the study states a 24 hour waiting period, but other than the potential system side effects... why?

mari0s
07-29-2013, 08:47 PM
a bit more info http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/

how about the difference between titanium and surgical steel? In this site they sell a dermaroller claim to be made on surgical steel wich, i think, it could be better

SOTF
07-29-2013, 11:07 PM
I know the study states a 24 hour waiting period, but other than the potential system side effects... why?

I think you're answering your own question, spinning in circles. The wounds the 1.5mm roller create are quite deep. My entire scalp was bleeding with enough force to get any type of penetration.

PrettyFly83
07-30-2013, 12:00 AM
Hey guys

I just wana make sure people understand I didn't follow the study/theory because I started my regime before it was published - if I had started after I would have definitely followed their routine of 1.5mm roller and no minox on rolling days. These are doctors/scientists who (I'm assuming) have some facts and science behind their choices. I was just following the roller marketing by trying to firstly decrease my sunspots (which has worked by the way) and secondly increase absorption of minox. By the way, has anyone tried to contact the authors of the study to get more detail on their method? I think this is key!

Onto queries:


Thanks for the link, interesting about the smaller length, not sure to go with that or what the trial used...

I'd recommend the 1.5mm as the study used. The reason I think I'm seeing results is, unlike other people I get pain and blood from a 0.5mm which shows me I'm wounding deep enough. This could be either due to 1. I have thin skin 2. My lack of hair allowing the needles to penetrate deep 3. My method of rolling which includes pressure and frequency. If my results start to slow I will likely upgrade to a 1.5mm.


Have you noticed any regrowth on the temples?

The re growth has been slowest as the places I lost my hair first. Temples and the top of my head, in front of crown thinned around 7 years ago so it makes sense that regrowth is the most stubborn here. I will try find a descent before and current picture of the temple area and upload to photobucket.


What's the consensus on applying Minox immediately after scalp rolling? The participants in the study did not apply Minox on the day they scalp rolled, while PrettyFly83, who saw great results as well, did.

When I applied Minox directly after scalp rolling, I got some pretty undesired side-effects during the hours afterwards; but applying Emu oil right afterwards is working great so far.

Again I feel follow the study but its up to you. If you are getting side effects however, rather avoid straight after. I haven't felt anything after. Forgot to add, I also use Emu oil on occasion as the generic minox really dries out my scalp and the Emu helps moisturize. Whether the science behind it is true I'm not sure but I just prefer it over some chemical based moisturizer.


Hey PrettyFly,

Can you tell us how long you've been losing your hair?

From the before photos, you look like pretty much a full norwood 6 with almost a completely slick bald head from crown to front of head. Is this a fair assumption?

Hey Hellouser, yip I'd say pretty much NW6 if not I would be by the end of year. I have looked through old photo's on facebook to track my progression and can summarize it as such:
19: Started noticing increased hair fall in my study book etc
21: Noticed temples thinning (NW1.5)
23: Increased Temple and top thinning (NW2)
24: Significant thinning on top (NW3)
25-26: Loss of density all over (NW4 but could trace NW6 thinning - started buzzing)
28: Bald top no temples (NW5)
30: (Now) complete loss with some minor stubborn terminal hairs sporadically spaced (NW6)

Current status after 2.5 months treatment is still NW5 as the new hairs are still very fine and not densely spaced but if it keeps going I'd say an NW3 is in reach. I'm not expecting to rewind more than 6 years but who knows...Hope that helps.


how about the difference between titanium and surgical steel? In this site they sell a dermaroller claim to be made on surgical steel wich, i think, it could be better

When I chose mine they made some marketing claim that titanium was more sterile that surgical steel and was less susceptible to corrosion, I say bollocks, there is a reason why all surgical instruments are steel. I don't think it should make a difference.

I hope all are taking pictures! trust me I would have stopped if I didn't see the pictures, its very hard to tell progress just by looking at the mirror everyday!



Here is a top shot of temples showing a 2 month progression. Zoom in to see the small regrowth. Top of the picture is the front of my hairline.
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Templestop2305-3007_zps80fd41cf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Hope this helps everyone

Good luck!!

PrettyFly83
07-30-2013, 03:57 AM
Ive uploaded the originals here:

Start of treatment 23/05/2013
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/2013-05-23091333_zpsda4acab3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

2 months into treatment 30/07/2013
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/2013-07-30075527_zps0c95ad00.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Click the zoom button twice to get full size

JDW
07-30-2013, 05:09 AM
Excellent quality photos, amazing progress for two months

brunobald
07-30-2013, 05:21 AM
Wow nice results, I wonder if the dermarolling will make the hair follicules more robust, specifically in terms of what will happen if you stop using Minox.

It looks like from your photos we are seeing ethier new follicules or a regeneration of old. A scalp biopsy would confirm this.

bananana
07-30-2013, 05:30 AM
Ive uploaded the originals here:

Start of treatment 23/05/2013
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/2013-05-23091333_zpsda4acab3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

2 months into treatment 30/07/2013
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/2013-07-30075527_zps0c95ad00.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Click the zoom button twice to get full size

Damn, these are really pretty good results! Regrowth is clearly seen, congrats.

Hal0
07-30-2013, 06:24 AM
Hi, great results indeed.

But i have a question for you guys, i cant take minox anymore because i had huge irritation, do you know if i can find a subtitution product?

hellouser
07-30-2013, 07:24 AM
Hi, great results indeed.

But i have a question for you guys, i cant take minox anymore because i had huge irritation, do you know if i can find a subtitution product?

Irritation? Like itchiness/redness?

Try to at least apply a bit of it. You're going to need it. If not, perhaps acquiring minoxidil compound on its own and creating your own vehicle for it, it could be the amount of propylene glycol in it.

Conpecia
07-30-2013, 07:55 AM
Hal0: did you try the foam? those who get irritation from the liquid often do not experience it on the foam. that's what i use.

Borealis
07-30-2013, 08:34 AM
Incredible progress there PrettyFly! I've just used it for the second time, ahh it's so horrible haha. I'm trying to convince myself I'm just overreacting but I swear I'm already noticing a difference in the thickness of my hair, and there are plenty of new vellus hairs.

God it doesn't half itch afterwards though, last time it went away after about an hour though.

Hal0
07-30-2013, 09:14 AM
Hellouser: yes like redness, dandruff, itchiness... I read somewhere that i need to add some oil..

Conpecia: Not yet but i will buy it i guess, i dont have the choice if i want some regrowth. I hope have the same result than a standard minoxidil.

PrettyFly83
07-30-2013, 09:15 AM
:)
Incredible progress there PrettyFly! I've just used it for the second time, ahh it's so horrible haha. I'm trying to convince myself I'm just overreacting but I swear I'm already noticing a difference in the thickness of my hair, and there are plenty of new vellus hairs.

God it doesn't half itch afterwards though, last time it went away after about an hour though.

Cheers thanks guys but no need to congratulate, still got along way to go...Borealis I know exactly what you mean ha ha its not the most pleasant experience but what I've done and helps is get an ice block and numb the area you going to roll. Definitely helps with the itch pain thing. Also regarding the speed, the study also notided rapid growth of existing follicles a week after rolling. Ive also noticed I have to buzz my hair alot more frequently so you may already be picking up on that.

Good luck

clandestine
07-30-2013, 09:17 AM
PrettyFly; what's your regimen?

hellouser
07-30-2013, 09:19 AM
Hey Hellouser, yip I'd say pretty much NW6 if not I would be by the end of year. I have looked through old photo's on facebook to track my progression and can summarize it as such:
19: Started noticing increased hair fall in my study book etc
21: Noticed temples thinning (NW1.5)
23: Increased Temple and top thinning (NW2)
24: Significant thinning on top (NW3)
25-26: Loss of density all over (NW4 but could trace NW6 thinning - started buzzing)
28: Bald top no temples (NW5)
30: (Now) complete loss with some minor stubborn terminal hairs sporadically spaced (NW6)

Current status after 2.5 months treatment is still NW5 as the new hairs are still very fine and not densely spaced but if it keeps going I'd say an NW3 is in reach. I'm not expecting to rewind more than 6 years but who knows...Hope that helps.


Thank you!

This is definitely exciting for diffuse thinners, too bad my temples are shot! Hopefully I can regain some hair in that area.

Borealis
07-30-2013, 09:21 AM
Well I have pretty long hair on top anyway (I'm a NW2/3 maybe, with only very slight thinning on top), but it's my hairline that affects me the most. So the growth thing may not affect me so much. The ice thing sounds like a good idea, I may try that!

Thanks, and good luck to you. Keep going with it and I expect you to be a NW1 this time next year ;)

PrettyFly83
07-30-2013, 09:22 AM
PrettyFly; what's your regimen?

Hey Clandestine, check out pages 5 and 6 of the thread, think its all there. Let me know if you got any queries?

clandestine
07-30-2013, 09:26 AM
Hey Clandestine, check out pages 5 and 6 of the thread, think its all there. Let me know if you got any queries?

Thanks.

Looks like you've got some regrowth; good job!

Pentarou
07-30-2013, 03:17 PM
Quick misc. question about derma rolling: can you use them successfully without having buzzed hair?

hellouser
07-30-2013, 04:16 PM
Quick misc. question about derma rolling: can you use them successfully without having buzzed hair?

As long as it wounds the skin, you should be fine. If the dermaroller is going overtop your existing hair, you'll probably need longer needles.

Pentarou
07-30-2013, 05:50 PM
As long as it wounds the skin, you should be fine. If the dermaroller is going overtop your existing hair, you'll probably need longer needles.
Ah, I see. I don't have any bald areas if that helps, I'm a diffuse Nw2.5. Still worth a shot?

hellouser
07-30-2013, 05:55 PM
Ah, I see. I don't have any bald areas if that helps, I'm a diffuse Nw2.5. Still worth a shot?

Hell yeah.

justeone
07-30-2013, 07:25 PM
I'm ordering one today too :eek:
Remember guys , we are out for blood .

greatjob!
07-30-2013, 07:42 PM
In the study they say they used the derma roller on the scalp "until mild erythema was noted" that doesn't really suggest they drew blood during treatment, but until mild redness was noticed on the skin.

StayThick
07-30-2013, 09:14 PM
In the study they say they used the derma roller on the scalp "until mild erythema was noted" that doesn't really suggest they drew blood during treatment, but until mild redness was noticed on the skin.

This. You are not suppose to apply so much pressure on the scalp it draws blood. That's extremely excessive.

I personally apply enough pressure where it's very unpleasant and my skin turns a semi-bright red. NO BLOOD. It even stings 10-15 minutes after application until I wake up the next morning.

I think that's the purpose of the study..not stabbing yourself with dozens of needles while blood pours down your face.

hellouser
07-30-2013, 09:40 PM
This. You are not suppose to apply so much pressure on the scalp it draws blood. That's extremely excessive.

I personally apply enough pressure where it's very unpleasant and my skin turns a semi-bright red. NO BLOOD. It even stings 10-15 minutes after application until I wake up the next morning.

I think that's the purpose of the study..not stabbing yourself with dozens of needles while blood pours down your face.

Well no wonder Jesus never went bald... that thorny crown did him good.

the_dude78
07-31-2013, 03:41 AM
I can't help but wonder why we haven't really heard much about this before or seen any real results except from the study linked by OP and the photos from the user PrettyFly83. I mean it has been around for some years. I hope it's because they simply have been doing it wrong and been focusing on absorption and/or not stuck with it long enough. Anyway, I will definitely give it a try and use it once a week.

hellouser
07-31-2013, 07:41 AM
I can't help but wonder why we haven't really heard much about this before or seen any real results except from the study linked by OP and the photos from the user PrettyFly83. I mean it has been around for some years. I hope it's because they simply have been doing it wrong and been focusing on absorption and/or not stuck with it long enough. Anyway, I will definitely give it a try and use it once a week.

Not a lot of people were doing it consistently and especially nowhere near enough with wounding. It also requires minoxidil as well.

Cotsarelis did mention back in around 2007 that wounding skin induces WNT proteins which helps hair grow, the same protein histogen uses for their injection method.

I hope we all get results.

SOTF
07-31-2013, 10:54 AM
This. You are not suppose to apply so much pressure on the scalp it draws blood. That's extremely excessive.

I personally apply enough pressure where it's very unpleasant and my skin turns a semi-bright red. NO BLOOD. It even stings 10-15 minutes after application until I wake up the next morning.

I think that's the purpose of the study..not stabbing yourself with dozens of needles while blood pours down your face.

This is just wrong. If you aren't bleeding you my aswell be using a .5mm roller. Use a 1.5mm, apply light pressure and see how much of those needles are getting penetration. 1/4th? If I am pressing hard enough to get even half the 1.5mm needles into the scalp, bleeding occurs.

People have been using .5mm for a long time and have no acheived results like in the newest study. So which is it?

greatjob!
07-31-2013, 11:22 AM
I can't help but wonder why we haven't really heard much about this before or seen any real results except from the study linked by OP and the photos from the user PrettyFly83. I mean it has been around for some years. I hope it's because they simply have been doing it wrong and been focusing on absorption and/or not stuck with it long enough. Anyway, I will definitely give it a try and use it once a week.

DR. Cotsarelis's work is based on the same principle, so we have been hearing a lot about this, it's just a poor man's version of his work.

Barron
07-31-2013, 12:18 PM
I agree. I feel like a lot of people gave it a shot from 2007 - 2009 and no one came to any clear-cut conclusions. Anecdotal evidence that it has worked for some people does exist, but no group of individuals tried it consistently and in a controlled manner.

The way I see it is, as with any hair loss treatment, it's difficult for individuals to gauge effectiveness when they don't see any clear-cut regrowth (even though, IMO, maintenance counts as effectiveness) and it requires months, if not years, to be able to tell.


Not a lot of people were doing it consistently and especially nowhere near enough with wounding. It also requires minoxidil as well.

Cotsarelis did mention back in around 2007 that wounding skin induces WNT proteins which helps hair grow, the same protein histogen uses for their injection method.

I hope we all get results.

Velvetmonkey
07-31-2013, 12:57 PM
Why do people keep saying you need minoxidil for this?

The study suggests you don't need minoxidil to achieve results. It says clearly that people applied minoxidil 24 hours AFTER microneedling. I'm no expert on wound healing, but obviously you would absorb more minoxidil by applying it directly after needling.

Or am I missing something?

I'm waiting for my roller now. If this works it will be huge.

On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it.

So yeah, I believe in this shit for sure! :)

hellouser
07-31-2013, 01:36 PM
Why do people keep saying you need minoxidil for this?

The study suggests you don't need minoxidil to achieve results. It says clearly that people applied minoxidil 24 hours AFTER microneedling. I'm no expert on wound healing, but obviously you would absorb more minoxidil by applying it directly after needling.

Or am I missing something?

I'm waiting for my roller now. If this works it will be huge.

On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it.

So yeah, I believe in this shit for sure! :)

Because minoxidil can give serious side effects if it goes systemic; rapid hearbeat being one of them. I've read reports that Minoxidil is supposed to raise PGE2 level, which are actually lowered in balding men compared to non-balding.

Also, I read somewhere of someone being bald and getting a bad sunburn o his head only to find new hairs growing after.

hellouser
07-31-2013, 04:00 PM
On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it.

So yeah, I believe in this shit for sure! :)

Does that hair on your hand still grow to this day or did it stop after a while?

greatjob!
07-31-2013, 05:13 PM
Why do people keep saying you need minoxidil for this?

The study suggests you don't need minoxidil to achieve results. It says clearly that people applied minoxidil 24 hours AFTER microneedling. I'm no expert on wound healing, but obviously you would absorb more minoxidil by applying it directly after needling.

Or am I missing something?

I'm waiting for my roller now. If this works it will be huge.

On a sidenote. I remember one time as a kid, my friend squeezed his thumbnail into the top side of my hand for laughs. A coupple of hours later a single super thick black hair had sprouted in the same place. I mean, I don't have hairy hands. So this kid obviously managed to force a hair to grow on the back of my hand by "microneedling" it.

So yeah, I believe in this shit for sure! :)
The reason you need to use minoxidil in conjunction is because it isn't about absorption, that's why you don't use it on the same day. The point of using minox is because it is believed to be a PEG2 stimulator of some sort, and PEG2 is believed to be a growth stimulant that helps with the upregulation of various growth factors and possibly inhibits PDG2, that will then hopefully reactivate the dormant stem cells in the scalp. It is unlikely that wounding alone will be enough to regenerate hair. Dr. Cotsarelis and Follica are working on a similar treatment with different devices and different growth factors. Without the growth factors it is unlikely to do anything, or else Follica would likely have released a treatment a long time ago.

deuce
07-31-2013, 08:28 PM
Didn't Cotsarelis use FGF9. You think that would work with this trial here?

hellouser
07-31-2013, 08:34 PM
Didn't Cotsarelis use FGF9. You think that would work with this trial here?

The theory is that FGF-9 added to wounding would create new hair follicles. Apparently its already used in other areas so a clinical trial for FGF-9 isn't necessary. However, its clear from PrettyFly that its not completely necessary and Minoxidil works at least to some degree.

FGF-9 you'd need to inject though, its molecular weight is 23,000 dalton. Human skin won't let anything higher than 500 pass through it, perhaps more but depends on skin. Dermarolling will of course help penetration but to what extent I don't know as there are variables, but I've read that it could allows a compound up 10,000 dalton to pass through it.

deuce
07-31-2013, 09:38 PM
Thanks for the info Hellouser. Good stuff man. Hopefully Prettyfly maintains his good results and adds to it. Minoxidil gives me headaches and heart palpitations unfortunately. Hopefully Follica releases something soon, and is cosmetic so it does not have to pass trials. We can all grow hair and put this shit to bed. I may give the minoxidil another shot. I read on this forum that you should not add minox the same day as you do your rolling. Then I read that Prettyfly does his immediately after rolling. I am confused. Should we do it the same day or not? Also Haven't people been using dermarolling with minoxidil for a while now? What is the difference now?

hellouser
07-31-2013, 09:46 PM
Thanks for the info Hellouser. Good stuff man. Hopefully Prettyfly maintains his good results and adds to it. Minoxidil gives me headaches and heart palpitations unfortunately. Hopefully Follica releases something soon, and is cosmetic so it does not have to pass trials. We can all grow hair and put this shit to bed. I may give the minoxidil another shot. I read on this forum that you should not add minox the same day as you do your rolling. Then I read that Prettyfly does his immediately after rolling. I am confused. Should we do it the same day or not?

If you get side effects, dont do it the same day. Its not completely necessary anyway to do the same day. Dermarolling isn't about absorption of Minoxidil, its about wounding.

hellouser
07-31-2013, 10:35 PM
Interesting article from 1986 mentioning scalp burn victim with MPB regrowing terminal hair after the burn healed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1351889/pdf/bmjcred00266-0059b.pdf

Velvetmonkey
07-31-2013, 11:15 PM
Does that hair on your hand still grow to this day or did it stop after a while?

I pulled it out as soon as I noticed it as it looked freaky. Today there's only tiny hairs that are barely visible.

Velvetmonkey
07-31-2013, 11:20 PM
Interesting article from 1986 mentioning scalp burn victim with MPB regrowing terminal hair after the burn healed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1351889/pdf/bmjcred00266-0059b.pdf

This suggests that minoxidil is not necessary for hair regrowth.

greatjob!
07-31-2013, 11:23 PM
This suggests that minoxidil is not necessary for hair regrowth.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to replicate a successful study unless you experienced unbearable side effects.

beetee133
08-01-2013, 02:58 AM
One quick question about wounding in this context. My understanding of the wounding process in humans is that if the wound is severe enough to cause a scarring process to start, that no hair will regrow in that area ever. I thought the main take away from the recent Cotsarelis research is that that's the main difference between these mice and humans: when the human skin is wounded and scarred it will never regrow hair, but that it's possible that if some chemical agent is introduced it may be able to change the process from one that would produce a scar to one that would produce hair follicles. If this is the case, that would seem to indicate that if one did not use the right chemical (from what I understand the correct chemical is either unknown or just known by Cotsarelis) and one is inducing wounding there is a chance (possibly a good one) that they will be causing scar tissue to develop and then no hair will ever grow in the scarred areas again.

Take it for what it's worth (not much) and everyone is obviously free to experiment as much as they want, but a potential word of caution. It seems to me that some percentage of the people on this forum actually have pretty decent heads of hair but are really freaked out about what they think they see coming down the pike in terms of hair loss. While I don't blame anyone for that, it might make as much sense to look at your hair in terms of how much you have as opposed to how much you think you've lost.

I obviously have no idea what will happen if you experiment with this wounding process, but just be careful, as it would be a shame to dramatically and permanently advance the process of balding in an effort to make it go away, especially if you are someone that no one else can even really tell is suffering from MPB.

Velvetmonkey
08-01-2013, 03:40 AM
I don't understand why you wouldn't want to replicate a successful study unless you experienced unbearable side effects.

I just think minoxidil is such a hassle. I used it 10 years ago but can't say it did anything for me.

I will however try the microneedling and rub some emu oil on my scalp right after.

mari0s
08-01-2013, 05:24 AM
One quick question about wounding in this context. My understanding of the wounding process in humans is that if the wound is severe enough to cause a scarring process to start, that no hair will regrow in that area ever. .

mmm many people use the 1.5mm in their face for acne scars and usually they push hard with a lot of blood but i never heard that beardhair have stop to regrow, do you have a link of that research?

In the study they said middle erythema so there is no need of push until bloods out, someone should really try to contact them i can' understand why no one has tried, we don't even know if they have use DR with cross-lined needles or straight

doke
08-01-2013, 06:03 AM
If you dermeroll everyday you only need to use minoxidil once a day thats what i am doing as it makes minox more powerful and less side effects.

doke
08-01-2013, 06:17 AM
I think there has been users for a long time using dermaroller heres a link to where i got my first roller with the woundhealing copper peptides spray also a video of the use with minoxidil once a day use
just a word see the video and i am not saying buy from them as i now get either tricomin or procyte copper peptides in other words shop around the video might be helpful as said use minox 5% once a day.

the_dude78
08-01-2013, 07:13 AM
I think there has been users for a long time using dermaroller heres a link to where i got my first roller with the woundhealing copper peptides spray also a video of the use with minoxidil once a day use
just a word see the video and i am not saying buy from them as i now get either tricomin or procyte copper peptides in other words shop around the video might be helpful as said use minox 5% once a day.

Great link, thanks!

the_dude78
08-01-2013, 07:20 AM
If you dermeroll everyday you only need to use minoxidil once a day thats what i am doing as it makes minox more powerful and less side effects.

But the idea is to NOT roll every day. The wound healing process apparently requires time to do its magic.

greatjob!
08-01-2013, 10:31 AM
I just think minoxidil is such a hassle. I used it 10 years ago but can't say it did anything for me.

I will however try the microneedling and rub some emu oil on my scalp right after.

Why don't you try the foam? It is not a hassle at all, dries in a few minutes and I actually find that it acts as a thickening styling agent. Also it is now available in generic, I get a 6 month supply of generic foam from costco for around $60.

the_dude78
08-01-2013, 11:00 AM
Since Nizoral acts as an anti inflammatory, I guess it would be a bad idea to use it with the dermaroller. Or?

hellouser
08-01-2013, 11:12 AM
Since Nizoral acts as an anti inflammatory, I guess it would be a bad idea to use it with the dermaroller. Or?

You could try getting OFF of Nizoral and seeing results with wounding, and then trying to add Nizoral back and seeing the new results.

StayThick
08-01-2013, 01:11 PM
This is just wrong. If you aren't bleeding you my aswell be using a .5mm roller. Use a 1.5mm, apply light pressure and see how much of those needles are getting penetration. 1/4th? If I am pressing hard enough to get even half the 1.5mm needles into the scalp, bleeding occurs.

People have been using .5mm for a long time and have no acheived results like in the newest study. So which is it?

No you're wrong.

You are not suppose to apply with as much pressure to cause blood. Do you seriously want to scar your head? Does hair grow from scars on your body?

They don't on me and I have a big one on my arm. Point is, the study does not indicate you have to draw blood. When I roll, it is painful and my skin turns bright red, specifically in the corners of my hairline which is my biggest concern. I couldn't fathom applyin any more pressure just from a pain standpoint.

Some of you guys are nuts.

greatjob!
08-01-2013, 01:23 PM
When I roll, it is painful and my skin turns bright red

This is correct. I am starting to wonder if most of the people here have even read the study or understood it.

The specific part of the study that describes what the desired outcome of the micro-needling says, again, to use the derma roller "until mild erythema was noted". Erythema does not mean bleeding, it means redness of the skin caused by blood from capillaries flowing into the lower levels of skin tissue as a result of skin injury. This is the purpose of the micro-needling to release the blood from the capillaries into the skin on the scalp, because the capillaries are going to carry the growth factors to the injured tissue and also the dormant follicles.

bigentries
08-01-2013, 01:32 PM
I'm worried about people speculating so much about needle sizes, use of minox, adding other stuff, etc.

We don't even know if this thing works or not, think about laser studies and the lack of anecdotal evidence

First we need to replicate the results with the same methodology and later try new approaches

Pentarou
08-01-2013, 05:27 PM
First we need to replicate the results with the same methodology and later try new approaches
This. Before anything else.

The Alchemist
08-01-2013, 06:46 PM
Count me in on this. Just came back from a haircut and i'm reaching peak desperation. Realized looking in the mirror that i'm on at the beginning phase of NWIIIA type loss. I'm receded, though not too deep in the corners, but i'm getting diffusely thin throughout the front. By this time next year, the frontal third of my head will be gone or just scraps that will be impossible to style.

I think the transition from NWII to NWIII is pretty rough to go through, it's the point where you actually start looking visibly balding to other people. Start dealing with the eyes that wander up to your hairline. F'ng baldness...what BS.

Tried derma-rolling a ways back, but never committed to it fully. I was inconsistent and then stopped after a month or so. Saw no results. Still have the roller so will give it a shot again. Think i'll roll twice a week and will be applying minox foam once at night. And i use Nizoral though it's some off brand, so who knows if it works. Now that i think about, my hairloss started accelerating right around the time i stopped using real Nizoral from Johnson and Johnson. The past 6 months, i've lost more than in the past 3 years combined. J&J stopped producing it....seriously FML, the one thing that was helping me hold off the MPB and now it's taken away for no reason.

I'm desperate, so i'm in...

doke
08-02-2013, 02:29 AM
Great link, thanks!

hi sorry about the link i kept trying but it did not work anyway the company and video is on www.clearskincare.com.au

SOTF
08-02-2013, 09:11 AM
People have been inducing erythema on their scalps while using minox for many years now. There is something a muck here, please "mildly" roll a 1.5mm dermaroller over your scalp, how much needle penetration are you getting? Less than half. Why even use a 1.5mm? Just use a .5mm which is enough to create erythema WITHOUT bleeding. If I get more than half penetration with the 1.5mm I BLEED.

Scarring? Have you seen the force used with a dermaroller on scars? Bleeding occurs. You are not going to damage or create scars pushing half a 1.5mm roller into your head.

Some of you guys are nuts (and misinformed). I can use ad hominem too.

johnnynohair
08-02-2013, 11:16 AM
Hello men.

I'll be trying this and reporting back. Got a 1.5mm roller on the way, I use 5% regaine foam twice a day and Nizoral twice a week.

I'm aiming to post baseline pictures but my bald/thin bit is right at the back and a pig to photograph well. And y'know a bit cringe to do...

Cheers and good luck all.

PrettyFly83
08-02-2013, 11:40 AM
Hey all

So I took some initiative and managed to make contact with one of the Doctors behind the recent microneedling study. I'm not going to post their details here as they could get inundated with random emails and we may never get the facts we're after. they have confirmed that they are using it as a treatment for patients which is another promising sign on its effectiveness.

What I suggest is putting together a short list of queries we have which I'll request some clarity on. Whether we get any more information is another question as if they are using this treatment, its unlikely they will want to give away their secrets but its worth a try right?

The following seem to be the biggest queries on the forum which all are welcome to edit:

1. Needle size (0.5mm vs 1.5mm) to induce growth
2. Treatment pressure used and Whether weekly treatment is the most optimum
3. Why did study not use minox on same day
4. Whether bleeding is normal and to what extent
5. Will the treatment cause scaring and possibly hinder natural hair growth

Open to any opinions and views?

Its probably best to first pose some fairly non threatening questions to see if they open up so maybe lets keep it to a max 3-4 basic questions.

HectorHero
08-02-2013, 11:42 AM
People have been inducing erythema on their scalps while using minox for many years now. There is something a muck here, please "mildly" roll a 1.5mm dermaroller over your scalp, how much needle penetration are you getting? Less than half. Why even use a 1.5mm? Just use a .5mm which is enough to create erythema WITHOUT bleeding. If I get more than half penetration with the 1.5mm I BLEED.

Scarring? Have you seen the force used with a dermaroller on scars? Bleeding occurs. You are not going to damage or create scars pushing half a 1.5mm roller into your head.

Some of you guys are nuts (and misinformed). I can use ad hominem too.

Well, the one study used a 1.5 mm roller (with success). So at what point are people falling trap to ad hominem?

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 11:43 AM
Gents,
Joined HLH back in 2002. I am 40 and solid norwood 6 with about 3000 grafts in front to frame my grill. I like this forum the best so joined. I have been using Capillogain for 7 months and Scalp Med for the past month. The Cap regrew some and totally regrew my eye brows so has some benifit. Plus I have tons of elogngated peach fuzz all over my melon. Anyway been using the 1.5 for two weeks now and tonight will be the start of week three. I truly think waiting a full 7 days is very important. In a more severe would the three stages of healing takes 30 days. I am guessing these micro wounds heal in 6 to 7 with the growth factors at their highest points at day 3 and 4. I think wounding every day or every third day breaks the cycle of healing hence it will not work. I feel the cycle has to complete its self and with new wounds after that cycle it starts all over hence more WNT which is what we want....

Cheers,
Ghost

hellouser
08-02-2013, 11:57 AM
Hey all

So I took some initiative and managed to make contact with one of the Doctors behind the recent microneedling study. I'm not going to post their details here as they could get inundated with random emails and we may never get the facts we're after. they have confirmed that they are using it as a treatment for patients which is another promising sign on its effectiveness.

What I suggest is putting together a short list of queries we have which I'll request some clarity on. Whether we get any more information is another question as if they are using this treatment, its unlikely they will want to give away their secrets but its worth a try right?

The following seem to be the biggest queries on the forum which all are welcome to edit:

1. Needle size (0.5mm vs 1.5mm) to induce growth
2. Treatment pressure used and Whether weekly treatment is the most optimum
3. Why did study not use minox on same day
4. Whether bleeding is normal and to what extent
5. Will the treatment cause scaring and possibly hinder natural hair growth

Open to any opinions and views?

Its probably best to first pose some fairly non threatening questions to see if they open up so maybe lets keep it to a max 3-4 basic questions.

A few questions from me:

6. Do results continue to show as long as wounding/dermarolling continues with the use of Minoxidil or is there a maximum achievable one can expect?

7. How many norwood levels can this method potentially bring back a balding man?

8. We're trials ever done with Finasteride and if so, did the results improve?

PrettyFly83
08-02-2013, 12:17 PM
Gents,
Joined HLH back in 2002. I am 40 and solid norwood 6 with about 3000 grafts in front to frame my grill. I like this forum the best so joined. I have been using Capillogain for 7 months and Scalp Med for the past month. The Cap regrew some and totally regrew my eye brows so has some benifit. Plus I have tons of elogngated peach fuzz all over my melon. Anyway been using the 1.5 for two weeks now and tonight will be the start of week three. I truly think waiting a full 7 days is very important. In a more severe would the three stages of healing takes 30 days. I am guessing these micro wounds heal in 6 to 7 with the growth factors at their highest points at day 3 and 4. I think wounding every day or every third day breaks the cycle of healing hence it will not work. I feel the cycle has to complete its self and with new wounds after that cycle it starts all over hence more WNT which is what we want....

Cheers,
Ghost

Hey Ghost, good points raised and welcome to the forum! Have you taken some baseline pictures? I'm a NW6 myself and have gotten some fine regrowth all over from this technique. Check out pages 5-8 of the thread for my pictures. I agree about the resting period as the same is used in the skin care circles for collagen production - to early and you disrupt the cycle.

PrettyFly83
08-02-2013, 12:18 PM
A few questions from me:

6. Do results continue to show as long as wounding/dermarolling continues with the use of Minoxidil or is there a maximum achievable one can expect?

7. How many norwood levels can this method potentially bring back a balding man?

8. We're trials ever done with Finasteride and if so, did the results improve?

Good Points Hellouser! noted them down.

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 12:54 PM
PrettyFly yep I saw your pictures and can see your regrowth! Also see that your sun and or age spots have almost diminished. Your scalp looks a lot healthier for sure. Got me excited! You and me are in the same boat but with time I feel we will be NW3's! I also feel Follica has the cure but they are trying to work around a patent for which could take many, many years and a Patent pending doesn't help them at all. I have some background in this. Them using CURRENT drugs to trigger hair formulation they cannot patent because it is already out in market now. So their patents are based on a machine that either plucks holes and or some type of abrasion machine. All in all they know it works but every tom dick and harry will do a spin off. You cannot patent something unless it is new and unique to the market....their machine will be but wounding is wounding weather it is done by hand or machine.....cheers fellas:D

LevonHelms
08-02-2013, 12:59 PM
Hey guys,
I've been following this thread closely, and have finally been approved to post. I've purchased the 1.5mm and have done one treatment as described by the study, which I plan to follow. I'm a 10yr fin and minox vet, and will be continuing these through my trial (minox once a day except rolling days).

PrettyFly, your results are encouraging congrats! And thank you for contacting the scientist, if you can open a dialogue or even get a few questions answered that will be huge.

Anyway, lots of guys are trialing this right now, here, and on other forums. So, we should know if this works one way or another pretty soon.

Good Luck everybody!

hellouser
08-02-2013, 01:14 PM
PrettyFly yep I saw your pictures and can see your regrowth! Also see that your sun and or age spots have almost diminished. Your scalp looks a lot healthier for sure. Got me excited! You and me are in the same boat but with time I feel we will be NW3's! I also feel Follica has the cure but they are trying to work around a patent for which could take many, many years and a Patent pending doesn't help them at all. I have some background in this. Them using CURRENT drugs to trigger hair formulation they cannot patent because it is already out in market now. So their patents are based on a machine that either plucks holes and or some type of abrasion machine. All in all they know it works but every tom dick and harry will do a spin off. You cannot patent something unless it is new and unique to the market....their machine will be but wounding is wounding weather it is done by hand or machine.....cheers fellas:D

The solution with Follica, in my opinion, is simple:

1) Dermaroll/wound whenever needed at 7 day intervals.
2) Use a mesogun to inject FGF-9 yourself.
3) Watch hair grow.

FGF-9 needs injection though, its molecular weight is 23,000 dalton, far higher than skin allows (typically a maximum of 500 dalton, depending on vehicle as well).

Dermarolling should allow heavier compounds to go through the skin, but I'm not sure by how much. In one source I read up to 10,000 dalton, which is still HALF of FGF-9, so injection is still needed.

If we could though, get our hands on FGF-9 and inject ourselves with it and dermaroll, we'd need to figure out WHEN to inject ourselves with it; right after wounding? A day later? 3-4 days later? Before?

If anyone is an expert on this, would a diabetic needle with FGF-9 in saline provide results?

rdawg
08-02-2013, 02:10 PM
If anyone is an expert on this, would a diabetic needle with FGF-9 in saline provide results?

Do we even know if it's safe to use this FGF-9 stuff though?

like what harmful side effects could occur(cancer?)

it's worth a try if it's very safe to use like say cetrizine/PGD2 is.

hellouser
08-02-2013, 02:39 PM
Do we even know if it's safe to use this FGF-9 stuff though?

like what harmful side effects could occur(cancer?)

it's worth a try if it's very safe to use like say cetrizine/PGD2 is.

FGF-9 is already produced by your body, should be safe as hell. Also, its apparently already used in certain products, and Follica has already passed Phase I safety trials.

bigentries
08-02-2013, 03:02 PM
FGF-9 is already produced by your body, should be safe as hell. Also, its apparently already used in certain products, and Follica has already passed Phase I safety trials.

Hellouser, that is really bad reasoning, there are lots of substances produced by the body that have adverse effects when used exogenously

And are you sure about Follica? The last release of information was very chaotic, some people kept talking about Phase III trials, I don't remember anyone being able to find the trials that several articles were talking about

hellouser
08-02-2013, 03:17 PM
Hellouser, that is really bad reasoning, there are lots of substances produced by the body that have adverse effects when used exogenously

And are you sure about Follica? The last release of information was very chaotic, some people kept talking about Phase III trials, I don't remember anyone being able to find the trials that several articles were talking about

Yes, Follica is in Phase IIa studies;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbJiy37BmhE

Go to the 20:00 minute mark and Joe From Staten Island says:

'Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time in history, Follica is in Phase IIa studies. They have performed follicular neogenesis on human beings. My god.'

Spencer Kobren confirms this. Listen to the rest of the bit as well.

So it clearly passed safety. Now its efficacy.

john2399
08-02-2013, 03:49 PM
Can someone explain a good regimen on how to apply this stuff? Are you suppose to use dermaroller once a week ? Minox 24 hours after using dermaroller?

hellouser
08-02-2013, 03:51 PM
Can someone explain a good regimen on how to apply this stuff? Are you suppose to use dermaroller once a week ? Minox 24 hours after using dermaroller?

Yes to both. You should continuously use Minox for all days after dermarolling until the next dermarolling session.

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 05:44 PM
Fgf9...do not freak with it. Comes from rare tcells. Let your body produce it from wounding. You inject it...game over. Do your research....I am....lets work together....look up wound healing 3 stages......1 st stage blood vessels close down in wound healing. Then inflammation occurs.....then the magic wnt and formation of new blood vessels and growth properties. In hair loss there is only a trigger from dht that starts the process that stops at inflammation. When inflammation arrives it destroys but doesn't trigger the rebuild because there is no wound. Its a process and what we are doing now completes the process. I maybe drunk but I am right. Time now to pluck my head with 35000 holes. Man up. Its our time. What we do in life echos in eternity!

hellouser
08-02-2013, 05:55 PM
Fgf9...do not freak with it. Comes from rare tcells. Let your body produce it from wounding. You inject it...game over. Do your research....I am....lets work together....look up wound healing 3 stages......1 st stage blood vessels close down in wound healing. Then inflammation occurs.....then the magic wnt and formation of new blood vessels and growth properties. In hair loss there is only a trigger from dht that starts the process that stops at inflammation. When inflammation arrives it destroys but doesn't trigger the rebuild because there is no wound. Its a process and what we are doing now completes the process. I maybe drunk but I am right. Time now to pluck my head with 35000 holes. Man up. Its our time. What we do in life echos in eternity!

Would you say the dermarolling results would have been more impressive had the patients in the study been on Finasteride or Dutasteride?

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 06:03 PM
Fellas....logic....look at the 3 stages of wound healing. Inflammation is stage one.....no wound stage 2 and 3 do not happen. That means that the body aka inflammation never leaves....it's a cycle. What's good for us is our issue is only 4mm deep. People with deep bone arthritis can only depend on drugs. Why does propecia work? Because it lowers dht hence less inflammation. Why does minox work? Because it increases growth. Each of us has a different immune system. I am a Norwood 6 but I have not been sick for 20 years. Nothing nada. You have to complete the circle. Wounding is the key and Folica knows it.

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 06:09 PM
Hellman yes....I won't mess with it....did in my twenties. Lost my sex drive and my sense of being a man. I maybe bald but I get wood and I feel like a man. I hate hair loss but...do not forget who and what you are...a man.

hellouser
08-02-2013, 06:21 PM
Hellman yes....I won't mess with it....did in my twenties. Lost my sex drive and my sense of being a man. I maybe bald but I get wood and I feel like a man. I hate hair loss but...do not forget who and what you are...a man.

I've got fears of having the same problems. I took RU for a long time, and between September 2012 - May 2013 I took 50-100mg of RU daily. I could feel my libido drop, but everything else functioned normally, though I was also taking 320mg of Saw Palmetto a day as well.

I'm thinking of getting back on RU during the dermarolling trial. When would be the best time to apply a topical anti-androgen to go along with dermarolling? A day before or a 2-3 days after when the WNT proteins are released and FGF9 is induced?

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 06:26 PM
I am rolling why do transplant anti rejection drugs work on hair loss? It puts inflammation in check. There is no foreign invader. Wounding works in time and we have the tools. I am so. Sorry you guys are going thru this. I was 19 when it started for me and I am 40 now. I married a beautiful woman 5 years ago. She didn't care I was bald. I was free from this and was happy. Our divorce was final two weeks ago.....no reason just she didn't love me anymore. Is what it is. My time will come and so will yours. I love all my balding brothers. Ghost out

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 06:35 PM
Hellousa
ru topical I think is good because of its shelf life which is 24 hours. I may start it but eod. I think doing that keeps dht in check. No more than 4 times a week. Where do you get it. I hope its not Kane.

Conpecia
08-02-2013, 06:38 PM
i like this ghost guy. he's got the right mentality.

i'm curious as to what happens to the hairs we gain from wounding. they're still dht sensitive, that's not going anywhere. so by derma rolling and inducing the wound process that regular mpb skips over (thus endless inflammation), are we essentially creating dht resistant hairs, so long as we roll regularly? that's one question. and will blocking dht get us farther along and make things happen quicker?

i think we're onto something by wounding and letting growth factors get to work. i also think we'll find ways to optimize this process within the next few months. plus it's pretty safe as far as experimentals go. lots of guys are interested in this, many of them with way more knowledge about hair loss than i possess. i think together we can make some big strides. let's do this, all out attack.

hellouser
08-02-2013, 07:28 PM
Hellousa
ru topical I think is good because of its shelf life which is 24 hours. I may start it but eod. I think doing that keeps dht in check. No more than 4 times a week. Where do you get it. I hope its not Kane.

My source was actually Ontario Chemicals for the first little while, but am not sure of its purity. My last batch was from a group buy elsewhere. My next source may be Kane.

I will be ordering CB soon as well, may use that along with RU or potentially on its own as to minimize its side effects (drop in libido). CB is also supposed to be at least 2X as strong as Finasteride without any side effects (it goes benign once it hits the bloodstream anyway).

hellouser
08-02-2013, 07:31 PM
i like this ghost guy. he's got the right mentality.

i'm curious as to what happens to the hairs we gain from wounding. they're still dht sensitive, that's not going anywhere. so by derma rolling and inducing the wound process that regular mpb skips over (thus endless inflammation), are we essentially creating dht resistant hairs, so long as we roll regularly? that's one question. and will blocking dht get us farther along and make things happen quicker?

i think we're onto something by wounding and letting growth factors get to work. i also think we'll find ways to optimize this process within the next few months. plus it's pretty safe as far as experimentals go. lots of guys are interested in this, many of them with way more knowledge about hair loss than i possess. i think together we can make some big strides. let's do this, all out attack.

This forum needs a 'Like' button just as on Facebook. I agree about Ghost, great info. This thread is full of information, exactly what this forum and every other hair loss forum should be about :)

Thanks Ghost!

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 07:34 PM
conpecia
The immune system is a link. Genes is all well and good. Can they be changed? That's up to god! Like I said our issues are 4mm deep. I know it is shallow but it is up to you. I took pics tonight....first place your 1.5 on your skull. Press down it feels like pulling Velcro apart. Then once you pressed it in and you hear then skin pop then you use that pressure from front to back. Then repeat......do it

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 07:47 PM
I hope the folica team is reading this thread because they know......we know...and our suffering is almost over. And they can suck a wet jucy fart. And good luck them on their wishful wounding machine using already approved FDA drugs.....sorry you........

goldbondmafia
08-02-2013, 07:48 PM
has anyone on here actually had results (before after pics) from dermarolling or is it still too new?

I wonder whos been doing it the longest and if its been beneficial..

Arashi
08-02-2013, 07:51 PM
has anyone on here actually had results (before after pics) from dermarolling or is it still too new?

I wonder whos been doing it the longest and if its been beneficial..

See page 5 of this thread. Or just click: http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Crown1205-2307_zps515dd798.jpg.html

hellouser
08-02-2013, 07:53 PM
I hope the folica team is reading this thread because they know......we know...and our suffering is almost over. And they can suck a wet jucy fart. And good luck them on their wishful wounding machine using already approved FDA drugs.....sorry you........

This.

This should also be read by Aderans, Replicel, Histogen and especially every crooked hair transplant doctor charging 10,000 fvcking dollars per treatment at the expense of donor hair WITHOUT regeneration. If they plan on making any money, they're going to need to have a much better product (assuming and hoping dermarolling/wounding+minox works).

Market forces will determine their fate, and I will gladly watch these lazy sons of bitches hit rock bottom with their prolonged clinical trials and empty promises. Snake oil salesman will be shook too. I can't wait to see their days be numbered... thats when real innovation and effort to push for a superior product starts.

chimera
08-02-2013, 07:59 PM
has anyone on here actually had results (before after pics) from dermarolling or is it still too new?


I think this is still too new, it hasn't even been one single month since the study was released.

There have been people trying this in the past, but I don't think they were consistent enough, or just did not knew how to do it (using smaller neddles or a lot of people dermarolling on a daily basis, which I really think is not a good idea).

Or at least that is what I hope so.

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 08:05 PM
**** them all. Sorry.....all forums should join together. We have no reason for financially advancement. Just to sit on a beach with the wind in our hair....and get some split tail. Guys I was given the logic.....So many of you guys smarter than me. First thing to look at is why does inflammation continue. I bet my left nut there is a reason. I am a project manager by trade. Lets set up a new thread every Friday....then the next Friday lets discuss our findings....this week inflammation...I will open the discussion on our findings next Friday morning. Lets do this

GreyGhost1864
08-02-2013, 08:19 PM
Hellouser
Amen! All about the roller.....a 12 roller derma roller and a 10 dollar liquid regrowth solution means only a 50 foot boat. They want the titanic.....and praise. God says to give silently. To be unknown and you will be blessed. I live by that way.....

hellouser
08-02-2013, 08:41 PM
**** them all. Sorry.....all forums should join together. We have no reason for financially advancement. Just to sit on a beach with the wind in our hair....and get some split tail. Guys I was given the logic.....So many of you guys smarter than me. First thing to look at is why does inflammation continue. I bet my left nut there is a reason. I am a project manager by trade. Lets set up a new thread every Friday....then the next Friday lets discuss our findings....this week inflammation...I will open the discussion on our findings next Friday morning. Lets do this

I'll be reporting my progress in this thread as well as my original regimen thread: http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12390

I got my dermaroller in the mail today, here it is:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermaroller-1.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermaroller-2.jpg

Conpecia
08-02-2013, 09:17 PM
lol we have the exact same laptop case

and that shit looks INTENSE dude, like a ****ing torture device...

john2399
08-02-2013, 09:29 PM
no pain no gain

goldbondmafia
08-02-2013, 09:41 PM
See page 5 of this thread. Or just click: http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/PrettyFly83/media/Crown1205-2307_zps515dd798.jpg.html

Really appreciate the post. Wow that is some crazy shit. Hellouser could you send me a link to where you got the dermaroller from?

hellouser
08-02-2013, 09:48 PM
Just finished my first rolling session... GOD DAMN IT HURTS. All I'm hearing is a crunching sound going back and forth across my scalp. I can definitely do this once a week, thank christ. Oh well, like John2399 said, no pain no gain.

Here's what my temples look like immediately after rolling:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-08-02-right-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-08-02-left-temple.jpg

hellouser
08-02-2013, 09:49 PM
Really appreciate the post. Wow that is some crazy shit. Hellouser could you send me a link to where you got the dermaroller from?

Yup:


I just ordered my dermaroller, 1.5mm and 192 microneedles:

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00A7XLJIW/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://mamooshop.com/images/41uCGNPCYRL.jpg

Conpecia
08-02-2013, 09:57 PM
lol this is gonna be one wild ride, thanks for the pics hell

hellouser
08-02-2013, 10:03 PM
lol this is gonna be one wild ride, thanks for the pics hell

I *badly* need pure CB from Kane. I dont want to touch RU anymore, I'm worried that extended use will fvck with my libido even more and potentially give me side effects similar to Finasteride; TESTICLE ATROPHY! I'm not entirely but I think my balls have shrunk *slightly*. They don't feel as 'big' when im excited.

CB is going to be a major god send when it becomes available, should put all the sons of bitches that make finasteride RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS.

goldbondmafia
08-02-2013, 10:12 PM
Yup:

thanks pal. Looks really painful lol

john2399
08-02-2013, 10:31 PM
hellouser, how many times did you roll it ?

hellouser
08-02-2013, 10:48 PM
hellouser, how many times did you roll it ?

No clue, but many times.. maybe 50 or so? I wanted to make sure I was getting enough wounding though because its hard to tell with hair in the way. Parting it helps though to check for blood, im going to judge wounding by that since my scalp is pretty damn white and the study did state until the scalp became red... but I don't see much redness going.

hellouser
08-02-2013, 11:03 PM
Would anyone advise getting a 2mm dermaroller considering it will be rolling over a head WITH hair that will make a 2mm dermaroller more like 1.5mm considering it has to go through the layer of hair?

Upon reflection, I don't think 1.5mm was absolutely necessary for a couple of reasons:

1) My hair is already thin, it doesnt create that much of a thick layer for the dermaroller to go through.
2) My scalp skin is very thin, so the dermaroller doesn't have much to go through.

That said, its better to be safe than sorry so the 1.5mm I'd still recommend.

Interesting though that I'm balding in area's where there's a thinner layer of skin and everywhere else where theres a thicker layer of skin theres LOTS of hair.

Anyone know if scalp skin thickness has any kind of relation to the follicles?

PrettyFly83
08-03-2013, 01:29 AM
Morning gents, sucks to be in the office on a Saturday morning but been a pleasure reading through the thread and all the comments. Lets keep this positivity "Rolling"!!

...eh, that was was lame sorry:o


PrettyFly yep I saw your pictures and can see your regrowth! Also see that your sun and or age spots have almost diminished. Your scalp looks a lot healthier for sure. Got me excited! You and me are in the same boat but with time I feel we will be NW3's! I also feel Follica has the cure but they are trying to work around a patent for which could take many, many years and a Patent pending doesn't help them at all. I have some background in this. Them using CURRENT drugs to trigger hair formulation they cannot patent because it is already out in market now. So their patents are based on a machine that either plucks holes and or some type of abrasion machine. All in all they know it works but every tom dick and harry will do a spin off. You cannot patent something unless it is new and unique to the market....their machine will be but wounding is wounding weather it is done by hand or machine.....cheers fellas:D


I maybe drunk but I am right. Time now to pluck my head with 35000 holes. Man up. Its our time. What we do in life echos in eternity!

Skrew the "like" button, I want a "High Five" button! Sticking it to the man!


I think this is still too new, it hasn't even been one single month since the study was released.

There have been people trying this in the past, but I don't think they were consistent enough, or just did not knew how to do it (using smaller neddles or a lot of people dermarolling on a daily basis, which I really think is not a good idea).

Or at least that is what I hope so.

Hey Chimera, I've been doing something similar accidentally for around 2.5 months and have been getting results - my pictures and regime have been posted earlier in the thread pg5-8. Really hope people can replicate and exceed the results i got!




Anyone know if scalp skin thickness has any kind of relation to the follicles?

Hey Hellouser, not sure it does. I'm really thin on my temples where yes there is little to no hair and its painful to roll however the back of my crown is very thick in skin, not painful to roll but is thinning badly...for now at least:D Maybe the thinner skin means less blood reserves and hence lower growth factors brought to the follicles which could be why regrowth is a little slower in these area's...just a theory.



PrettyFly, your results are encouraging congrats! And thank you for contacting the scientist, if you can open a dialogue or even get a few questions answered that will be huge.

Good Luck everybody!

Hey Levon, pleasure. I sent off the email this morning with some queries that I hope were not too prying. Will upload the response here if I get one. Once I get a response I will ask some more detailed queries.

Good luck to all

GreyGhost1864
08-03-2013, 05:51 AM
I drank tooooo much last night. I took pics last night after the knife fight. I hate looking at my crown! I needled with a .5 then my 1.5. Not pleasant but hope makes you do crazy things. God speed to us all

The ghost

doke
08-03-2013, 06:12 AM
Is fgf9 a lotion and we do not know the strength if it is,i am going back to using aloe vera mixed with dutasteride as i did start seeing results with that plus minoxidil without pg and the important tool the dermaroller although i use it everyday with 192 needle and 0.5mm which i get success with.
Also using copper pep and topicle zinc.

doke
08-03-2013, 07:35 AM
I noticed that a product has been mentioned with fgf9 that can be used now by a company called cygenex well this product was also called A&G which is made from human stem cells a lot of us bought into this a few years ago and it did not work then but i wonder if it had been used with the scalp roller or injected it may have done.
I know joe from staton island is excited but im not so sure as yet what about pgd2 and the psi by neosil these were supposed to regrow hair the psi was at the time said to only be used for 16 days then left for a month or two then restart and hair regrowth was seen in about two weeks what happened.
There is a company still selling psi but im not sure it will do anything but hey if used again with the roller it might.

SOTF
08-03-2013, 10:23 AM
Yes, Follica is in Phase IIa studies;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbJiy37BmhE

Go to the 20:00 minute mark and Joe From Staten Island says:

'Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time in history, Follica is in Phase IIa studies. They have performed follicular neogenesis on human beings. My god.'

Spencer Kobren confirms this. Listen to the rest of the bit as well.

So it clearly passed safety. Now its efficacy.

Can you please provide the study in which follica performs follicular neogenesis on human beings?

It is my understanding the study was from several years ago and was done using wounding + lithium.

I believe "Joe from Staten Island" made a false statement and people are taking it to heart.

hellouser
08-03-2013, 11:11 AM
Is fgf9 a lotion and we do not know the strength if it is,i am going back to using aloe vera mixed with dutasteride as i did start seeing results with that plus minoxidil without pg and the important tool the dermaroller although i use it everyday with 192 needle and 0.5mm which i get success with.
Also using copper pep and topicle zinc.

You won't be able to use FGF9 in a liquid vehicle, its molecular weight is 23,000 dalton where as skin typically allows compounds to pass through it with a molecular weight of about 500 or less. You could only do it through injections like a mesogun or a diabetic needle with saline as the vehicle.

I might get on emu oil myself for this trial to work best, something tells me that my skin thickness may play a roll, because its very thin where I have less hair. Dermarolling should help with thickening of the skin as well as its supposed to increase collagen.

UK_
08-04-2013, 05:25 AM
Thats insane.

HARIRI
08-04-2013, 05:35 AM
Guys million thanks for the information. I just ordered "Nanogen Microneedle Scalp Roller System". I have a strong belief that it will make my Minoxidil application more effective :D:D:D

http://www.nanogenindia.com/nanogen-scalproller-hair-growth-stimulator.html

http://hairloss101.com/nanogen-scalproller-treatment-enhancer.html

http://www.amazon.com/Nanogen-Scalproller-By/dp/B002U37AGW

mari0s
08-04-2013, 06:57 AM
i don't have buyed a dermaroller yet but many review that i have read suggests to buy those with stainless steel instead of titanium because the texture of the needles is more "fine" and so there are less risk of make a scar

Jcm800
08-04-2013, 07:00 AM
Jeez, I really hope rolling one of those things over your heads and drawing blood yields gains, christ hairloss drives men to extreme measures..

doke
08-04-2013, 09:46 AM
Hi jcm are you still using tx2 as i stopped ages ago like you say we hear of something new all the time but still cannot cure mpb how insane is this in 2013 minoxidil from the 1980s still being told to use,perhaps we should get ourselves a cow to lick our heads just apply jam to scalp and away you go haha.:eek:

Jcm800
08-04-2013, 09:51 AM
Hi jcm are you still using tx2 as i stopped ages ago like you say we hear of something new all the time but still cannot cure mpb how insane is this in 2013 minoxidil from the 1980s still being told to use,perhaps we should get ourselves a cow to lick our heads just apply jam to scalp and away you go haha.:eek:

Hi doke, no I cancelled my order for that rubbish. And started taking that other rubbish keretene retard. Must be a retard for trying it. Yeah next best thing is using a cow eh mate?

Just a Q-did you ask your gp about dutasteride, or did he prescribe it without you realising what it was at the time?

sosa56
08-04-2013, 11:35 AM
Gentlemen!

Right so off the back of the study linked at the beginning of this thread (so glad I found this forum, it's nice to be continually given hope in the form of new things to try and to look forward to that have at least some evidence base) I bought a dermaroller last week and used it for the first time today (brought my skin to medium erythema with a small amount of bleeding here and there). I'm including some photos of my baseline state below (I'd also appreciate it if someone could give their opinion of what Norwood they think I'm at - apologies if it's hard to tell from the pics, they're the best I could do- I think I'm at IIa with diffuse thinning) and will upload some more after 3 months (this was the period in the study wasn't it) of my new regime, which is minoxidil foam 5% 2x day 6 days/week, nizoral 1 day/week and dermarolling 1 day/week.

Thanks in advance all!

KeepHoping
08-04-2013, 03:13 PM
Sosa, what Dermaroller did you buy? Can you post the link to it? And was it really painful?

Also another question for the rest of the forum as well, would it be appropriate to use something like a topical anesthetic like lidocaine to reduce the pain inflicted from the microneedling?

baldnotbeautiful
08-04-2013, 08:35 PM
Random question : I derma rolled for the 2nd time tonight and for some reason it made me start sneezing every time I went back and forth. Anyone have this random issue?

LevonHelms
08-04-2013, 10:25 PM
We're on the same schedule. Tonight was my second roll, and yes I sneezed a couple times and my nose ran. It's the the nerve endings.

HARIRI
08-05-2013, 02:11 AM
We're on the same schedule. Tonight was my second roll, and yes I sneezed a couple times and my nose ran. It's the the nerve endings.

Really!!! Very interesting? Has another member experienced the same sneezing effect while using it??? Sosa56, hellouser how about you guys? :confused:

I think I should bring some facial tissues along when I will start using it :D

PrettyFly83
08-05-2013, 02:15 AM
Same happens to me, occasional sneeze and eyes water a little

doke
08-05-2013, 03:08 AM
Hi jc yes my gp let me swap from finasteride to dutasteride and im taking oral silica and biotin as well as minox as in scalpmed although im not happy with the greasy nature of there minox as its like regain lotion.
By the way i posted about the sneezing a couple of years ago cannot remember if it was at regrowth com but anyway it was only on the left side front where its shiny bald that also made eyes water as well but since i got a different roller with 192 needles its i havent had a problem.

StayThick
08-05-2013, 04:10 AM
Really!!! Very interesting? Has another member experienced the same sneezing effect while using it??? Sosa56, hellouser how about you guys? :confused:

I think I should bring some facial tissues along when I will start using it :D

You are not alone here. So weird. Every time I went up and down the hairline I would sneeze as well. How crazy is that.

I would assume this is normal and that when rolled it triggers a nerve or something to create a sneeze.

Happens to me all the time.

sosa56
08-05-2013, 06:08 AM
Sosa, what Dermaroller did you buy? Can you post the link to it? And was it really painful?

Also another question for the rest of the forum as well, would it be appropriate to use something like a topical anesthetic like lidocaine to reduce the pain inflicted from the microneedling?

I bought this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Needle-Roller-Stretchmarks-Regeneration/dp/B0085LUMLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375707486&sr=8-1&keywords=microneedle+roller with this to clean it http://www.amazon.co.uk/STERILIZER-Isopropyl-Myristate-Propylene-Bacteria/dp/B004LX340K/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1375707507&sr=1-1&keywords=alcohol+spray according to these instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8mXov4XRtc

As far as the actually needling itself it does hurt ( and I think this is the reason for the eyes watering and sneezing - the pain/irritation - although i don't remember sneezing myself) but no pain no gain right and I was only doing it with a medium amount of pressure because the goal is only erythema right, not ripping your scalp up?

Another point, in the study the mean hair count of the dermaroller + minox group went up 40%, does this mean I can expect my hair count to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?

Finally anyone got a thought on my Norwood level? I'd like to get an outside opinion

Axel
08-05-2013, 07:21 AM
Heya, looong time lurker here...

I've learnt about this dermaroller stuff recently and I must say I'm totally stoked. I'm 33yo NW2.5 diffuse thinning at a worrying speed. I refuse to take Propecia or put chemical shite inside my body so I'm gonna wait and see where this ends up...

Been reading A LOT and I think this is the real deal... cheap, effective, and backed by real science (Cots et al). Top research at our fingertips. No cow-lick bs. Follica device should be a more fine-tunned version of what is being tested here.

BTW, about the pain while rolling, look at this bish with a 2.0mm roller making her face full of blood... she says it is not painful because she is using a lidocaine cream before the treatment..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNrcr6h_0F0

Is anyone going to try this lidocaine thing?

SOTF
08-05-2013, 07:50 AM
I bought lidocaine inside aloe. This is for sun burnt skin. Will test it out when I roll later today. And yes, There Will Be Blood.

sosa56
08-05-2013, 09:48 AM
I bought this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Needle-Roller-Stretchmarks-Regeneration/dp/B0085LUMLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375707486&sr=8-1&keywords=microneedle+roller with this to clean it http://www.amazon.co.uk/STERILIZER-Isopropyl-Myristate-Propylene-Bacteria/dp/B004LX340K/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1375707507&sr=1-1&keywords=alcohol+spray according to these instructions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8mXov4XRtc

As far as the actually needling itself it does hurt ( and I think this is the reason for the eyes watering and sneezing - the pain/irritation - although i don't remember sneezing myself) but no pain no gain right and I was only doing it with a medium amount of pressure because the goal is only erythema right, not ripping your scalp up?

Another point, in the study the mean hair count of the dermaroller + minox group went up 40%, does this mean I can expect my hair count to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?

Finally anyone got a thought on my Norwood level? I'd like to get an outside opinion

Sorry that was meant to read does this mean I can expect my hair density to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?

LevonHelms
08-05-2013, 10:36 AM
Another point, in the study the mean hair count of the dermaroller + minox group went up 40%, does this mean I can expect my hair count to go up possibly more than this? (but possibly less also)?

This is certainly what we're all hoping. The results of the study were very promising. PrettyFly posted some good results earlier in the thread, but the rest of us are only on our second week or so. I think the study ran 18wks, is that right?

As far as your norwood, I'm no expert but I would guess maybe a diffuse NW2 A.

chimera
08-05-2013, 10:42 AM
I think the study ran 18wks

The study was only 12 weeks. Everybody may react different to the same kind of treatment, but if this works, at 12 weeks there should be at least some of us who get some kind of results. If this works.

sosa56
08-05-2013, 11:09 AM
This is certainly what we're all hoping. The results of the study were very promising. PrettyFly posted some good results earlier in the thread, but the rest of us are only on our second week or so. I think the study ran 18wks, is that right?

As far as your norwood, I'm no expert but I would guess maybe a diffuse NW2 A.

I think the study duration was 12 weeks?

hellouser
08-05-2013, 11:18 AM
I think the study duration was 12 weeks?

3 months = 12 weeks (more or less).

There's no reason why we can't continue dermarolling after 12 weeks.

sosa56
08-05-2013, 11:30 AM
3 months = 12 weeks (more or less).

There's no reason why we can't continue dermarolling after 12 weeks.

Of course but if we haven't achieved at least some measure of success at this point wouldn't it be fair to say that the method probably won't work?

Borealis
08-05-2013, 01:30 PM
This itching afterwards is almost unbearable. I always thought inflammation was bad for hair loss. Did someone say that it was the first stage of wounding or something?

bigentries
08-05-2013, 01:43 PM
Is it true that one of the private forums contacted the research team?

hellouser
08-05-2013, 02:07 PM
Is it true that one of the private forums contacted the research team?

No, PrettyFly is trying to (or has already, can't remember).

sosa56
08-05-2013, 02:17 PM
This itching afterwards is almost unbearable. I always thought inflammation was bad for hair loss. Did someone say that it was the first stage of wounding or something?

How hard are you rolling? Are you drawing lots of blood and are you using 1.5 mm? I mean I was rolling with medium pressure and drew a bit of blood and could feel the inflammation in the top of my head after with blood pumping there but didn't really get much itching

garethbale
08-05-2013, 02:57 PM
Guys I want to buy a dermaroller. Any specific size I need or amount I should spend to get a decent one?

Thanks

Borealis
08-05-2013, 03:23 PM
Not rolling particularly hard, odd bit of blood here and there. Using a 1.5mm roller, it's odd how the itching is usually always in the middle of my scalp and it comes on about 20 minutes after rolling and lasts an hour at most then its fine.

walrus
08-05-2013, 03:47 PM
I also experience the same itching sensation briefly after rolling.

john2399
08-05-2013, 05:33 PM
Just did mine for the first time...dat shitttt hurtttt lol

john2399
08-05-2013, 05:34 PM
how hard do you guys press down on your scalp?

StayThick
08-05-2013, 05:36 PM
Just did mine for the first time...dat shitttt hurtttt lol

It does hurt lol. I close my eyes and just try and visualize imaginary hair forming on the corners of my hairline with every up and down movement of the roller...lol

Or I just think of how eyes move up to my hairline every time I meet someone new for the first time..the pain I feel inside every time that happens is no where the physical pain of the roller...so I go to town. Haha

DesperateOne
08-05-2013, 09:43 PM
how hard do you guys press down on your scalp?

Wow, after reading this thread, it is just amusing what kind of things are being tried out, haha. I know that mpb sucks, but just looking at those pics of the guy with his head on that device, well it just looks silly.

I do hope this works, and hopefully people that are getting the results can call in and let us know about their experiences. This does seem to be the same thing I heard about those rats in long time ago.

Good luck to everyone.

DesperateOne
08-06-2013, 01:57 AM
Wow, after reading this thread, it is just amusing what kind of things are being tried out, haha. I know that mpb sucks, but just looking at those pics of the guy with his head on that device, well it just looks silly.

I do hope this works, and hopefully people that are getting the results can call in and let us know about their experiences. This does seem to be the same thing I heard about those rats in long time ago.

Good luck to everyone.

Well I think I might of spoken too early. I have now read the entire thread, well most of it. I have concluded that this is worth a try, considering the cost and also, if I don't get any results I will be using it on my stretch marks ^^.

I was wondering if this might be good to grow a beard and mustache. I am now in my late 20's and have very little facial hair, to the point that I have to shave it or it looks weird. If this works on the head, then I will be trying it out on my face :) .

I ordered the regular one shown on a video here, it is the green one on amazon, it's about $13 here. I will also be shaving my head when it arrives, I am basically desperate and this is my last chance I believe. That is until the supposedly true cure comes out.

may the luck be with you guys :D

KeepHoping
08-06-2013, 02:25 AM
Do you guys think these results could be long lasting even if use of minoxidil is discontinued after a 12 week trial?

the_dude78
08-06-2013, 03:20 AM
Do you guys think these results could be long lasting even if use of minoxidil is discontinued after a 12 week trial?

Impossible for any of us to say, but this is what was said in their discussion:

"On retrospective questioning of patients after 8 months of completion of the study, at the time of writing the manuscript, all patients in the Microneedling group reported a sustainable response."
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;a ulast=Dhurat

So that's good news. Also we should be able to see some results before 12 weeks. Judging from the photos the new hair has already grown quite long after only 12 weeks.

the_dude78
08-06-2013, 03:23 AM
Also this: "The results of this study show that Microneedling is a safe and a promising tool in hair stimulation both for male and female AGA and also is useful to treat hair loss refractory to Minoxidil therapy. We opine that Microneedling procedure should be offered to patients with AGA along with the existing therapeutic modalities for faster hair re-growth and better patient compliance."

http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;a ulast=Dhurat

I just think it is sort of comforting to read ;)

HARIRI
08-06-2013, 06:02 AM
Impossible for any of us to say, but this is what was said in their discussion:

"On retrospective questioning of patients after 8 months of completion of the study, at the time of writing the manuscript, all patients in the Microneedling group reported a sustainable response."
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;a ulast=Dhurat

So that's good news. Also we should be able to see some results before 12 weeks. Judging from the photos the new hair has already grown quite long after only 12 weeks.

The_dude78, Great study indeed. :D

This guy in the video is rolling his scalp roller pretty fast with no pain at all and no sneezing. Interesting :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kkIU7zmlk

hellouser
08-06-2013, 07:26 AM
The_dude78, Great study indeed. :D

This guy in the video is rolling his scalp roller pretty fast with no pain at all and no sneezing. Interesting :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4kkIU7zmlk

He can't possibly be pressing hard agains his scalp, also, this:


We use a 0.75mm needle length as this gives us the best results with minimal pain & bleeding and maximum durability of the needle. go to our website for further information

Study used a 1.5mm dermaroller.

the_dude78
08-06-2013, 08:16 AM
He can't possibly be pressing hard agains his scalp, also, this:



Study used a 1.5mm dermaroller.

It just doesn't look very safe the way he sometimes changes direction without lifting the roller first. If he were pressing hard, he could end up with some nasty scratches, so I agree, he can't be pressing that hard. But since it was to make minox absorb better and not about wounding, it was probably hard enough.

hellouser
08-06-2013, 08:28 AM
It just doesn't look very safe the way he sometimes changes direction without lifting the roller first. If he were pressing hard, he could end up with some nasty scratches, so I agree, he can't be pressing that hard. But since it was to make minox absorb better and not about wounding, it was probably hard enough.

For absorption, sure, he's probably fine with shorter needles and a gentler press. But I doubt he has any clue about the wounding theory.

Hairismylife
08-06-2013, 09:21 AM
For absorption, sure, he's probably fine with shorter needles and a gentler press. But I doubt he has any clue about the wounding theory.

We must see blood for wounding to occur?
Personally I think no

the_dude78
08-06-2013, 09:22 AM
For absorption, sure, he's probably fine with shorter needles and a gentler press. But I doubt he has any clue about the wounding theory.

Yeah, definitely not. I'm guessing very few new about that back in 2008 when the video was made. That's why I'm cautiously optimistic about this, because even though derma rolling for hair loss has been around for some years, it seems that no one has been doing it right, because no one knew about the wounding theory. It has always been for absorption and people was using it every day and not allowing for the process to complete. It's going to be interesting, still waiting for my roller though, can't wait to get started.

the_dude78
08-06-2013, 09:25 AM
We must see blood for wounding to occur?
Personally I think no

in the study it says "mild erythema", so I'm guessing no. But I have no idea.

Hairismylife
08-06-2013, 09:45 AM
Can I just use alcohol to clean the roller?

hellouser
08-06-2013, 09:49 AM
Can I just use alcohol to clean the roller?

A rectified spirits or high concentration alcohol will work fine. If not, just go to your pharmacy and get some antiseptic or isopropyl for a few dollars.

LevonHelms
08-06-2013, 09:54 AM
Can I just use alcohol to clean the roller?

That's how I've been cleaning mine.

Couple of other things, if you have longer hair you should roll in one direction otherwise you risk tangling your hair and yanking some out.

Also, I would suggest inspecting all your needles for straightness. When I first got mine I found one bent nearly all the way to 90 degrees. The other 191 needles were fine. I was able to straighten it out without further issue, but I'm sure a bent needle would feel even worse than a straight one.

KeepHoping
08-06-2013, 10:01 AM
Is there a general consensus on what the best derma roller to buy is?

baldnotbeautiful
08-06-2013, 10:04 AM
so then is it ok to use RU as well while doing this? or just supposed to be minox only?

walrus
08-06-2013, 10:24 AM
so then is it ok to use RU as well while doing this? or just supposed to be minox only?

No one knows for sure. Any advice on this would be a guess. What we can say based on the study, is that RU certainly isn't necessary.

bigentries
08-06-2013, 10:25 AM
According to the study, regrowth was noticeable around 6 weeks so if there is no change at the end of the 12 weeks, it probably will not work

I'm starting to worry about the claim that hair started to grow faster in just one week. Has anyone been able to verify the reputation of the researchers?

walrus
08-06-2013, 10:30 AM
I'm starting to worry about the claim that hair started to grow faster in just one week. Has anyone been able to verify the reputation of the researchers?

I had a few alarm bells about this after I was unable to find 2 of their main references in the paper:


5. Jeong K, Lee YJ, Kim JE, Park YM, Kim BJ, Kang H. Repeated microneedle stimulation induce the enhanced expression of hair-growth-related genes. Int J Trichology 2012;4:117.

6. Kim BJ, Lim YY, Kim HM, Lee YW, Won CH, Huh CH, et al. Hair follicle regeneration in mice after wounding by microneedle roller. Int J Trichology 2012;4:117.


I was able to find these as oral presentation abstracts but not as full, proper, publications. Can anyone else? If not, it is a bit suspect to pretend and reference a paper that does not exist...because what else could they have made up.

Arashi
08-06-2013, 11:06 AM
I had a few alarm bells about this after I was unable to find 2 of their main references in the paper:



I was able to find these as oral presentation abstracts but not as full, proper, publications. Can anyone else? If not, it is a bit suspect to pretend and reference a paper that does not exist...because what else could they have made up.

Nah. They seem to be legit: "This study was supported by a National Research Foundation of Korea grant funded by the Korean government (2011-0008687).", according to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3500071/#top

Arashi
08-06-2013, 11:08 AM
And don't forget on page 5 of this thread we have a forum user who's been doing this for 2 months with great success !

walrus
08-06-2013, 11:09 AM
Can you find them in full in the International Journal of Trichology as they referenced? They would at least be an interesting read.


And don't forget on page 5 of this thread we have a forum user who's been doing this for 2 months with great success !

True, a promising sign.

chimera
08-06-2013, 11:31 AM
And don't forget on page 5 of this thread we have a forum user who's been doing this for 2 months with great success !

Sadly, prettyfly (the user you're talking about) is still no proof that this treatment works, as he started the dermaroller more than a month before, but he has been on minox for more than 3 months. So, there is still no way to know if his results are due to the dermaroller or the minoxidil.

I still feel very uneasy about the fact that there has been a lot of people using dermaroller in the past without this kind of results. Yeah, I know most of them did not follow the exact same treatment exposed in the study, some used shorter neddles, some used the dermaroller more often, which could be a bad idea, but still.

Now, if the study is true then fine, awesome. But if in the end none of us get any kind of results. What would that mean?, would that mean that the study is lying about it's results, or could it be that the whole study is a lie?. But if that were to be the case?, then why?.

Arashi
08-06-2013, 11:33 AM
Sadly, prettyfly (the user you're talking about) is still no proof that this treatment works, as he started the dermaroller more than a month before, but he has been on minox for more than 3 months. So, there is still no way to know if his results are due to the dermaroller or the minoxidil.

I still feel very uneasy about the fact that there has been a lot of people using dermaroller in the past without this kind of results. Yeah, I know most of them did not follow the exact same treatment exposed in the study, some used shorter neddles, some used the dermaroller more often, which could be a bad idea, but still.

Now, if the study is true then fine, awesome. But if in the end none of us get any kind of results. What would that mean?, would that mean that the study is lying about it's results, or could it be that the whole study is a lie?. But if that were to be the case?, then why?.

So, we can basically do 2 things:

1) Assume the study is false and was done by a Chinese Dermaroller selling company :) In this case we just can sit back and continue balding.
2) Try it and see if it works !

bigentries
08-06-2013, 11:38 AM
So, we can basically do 2 things:

1) Assume the study is false and was done by a Chinese Dermaroller selling company :) In this case we just can sit back and continue balding.
2) Try it and see if it works !

My main worry is not a monetary interest, but just plain incompetence. Studies are not exempt of errors just because they are published in a scientific paper

Arashi
08-06-2013, 11:46 AM
My main worry is not a monetary interest, but just plain incompetence. Studies are not exempt of errors just because they are published in a scientific paper

Sure. It all might not work. Just saying that if we don't try it, we'll never know. I ordered my dermaroller a few days ago. Cant wait to try it out !

walrus
08-06-2013, 11:49 AM
What would that mean?, would that mean that the study is lying about it's results, or could it be that the whole study is a lie?. But if that were to be the case?, then why?.

There are motives other than pushing a product. They could be publishing a 'miraculous' result to gain citations of their study, attempt to boost their careers, and seek further funding etc.

The reputation of the journal and not just that of the authors is also a factor, ie. how rigorously was it peer reviewed?

Anyway, time will tell.