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Thinning87
09-08-2013, 08:33 PM
Don't freak out all at once because you read the word "sperm"

DesperateOne
09-08-2013, 08:33 PM
I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?

I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.

Where in the world are we suggesting this. We are just saying what our options might be, and if it works then you will do it yourself I bet. I don't know why people are so negative about experimentation, there is no way we can do better than scientist, all we have is trials. Over the years we have gone through wild goose chases but if we hadn't, we would have to try all those things out eventually. So if you're against that, then that means you're just waiting for a company cure, so what are you even doing here. No one is forcing you to do ANYTHING including coming here.

chimera
09-08-2013, 09:13 PM
I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?

I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.

Yeah, I have suggested that applying semen in your head my be helpful. Now, just let me ask you one single question?, do you know why? I mean, do you know the mechanism behid it?...

chimera
09-08-2013, 09:18 PM
I really don't know, if ejaculated sperm doesn't contain FGF-9 then I wouldn't bother. I only saw bits of info where FGF-9 was induced when sperm was developed.


I did not knew about fgf9. But apparently, spermidine is a hair growth stimulator, and also, human semen has a moderate quantity of PGE2.

hellouser
09-08-2013, 09:24 PM
I did not knew about fgf9. But apparently, spermidine is a hair growth stimulator, and also, human semen has a moderate quantity of PGE2.

Yes, but semen certainly has other properties that may be detrimental. I know the substance isn't foreign, but... I'd rather ask some scientist. Not anyone like Cotsarelis though, he's got too much at stake with Follica. Someone independent and removed from the hair loss world.

I think we need some research first before doing anything wild.

DesperateOne
09-08-2013, 09:25 PM
I did not knew about fgf9. But apparently, spermidine is a hair growth stimulator, and also, human semen has a moderate quantity of PGE2.

Where did you read it was a hair growth stimulator? I know that the logic behind my reading is that it does have pge2. I guess that why they say that joke, that you have hair in your hands because you were jacking off lol

chimera
09-08-2013, 09:26 PM
I reported this thread, this is going too far. Are you really suggesting people to butcher their scalp and then put sperm on it?

I have a feeling this is going to end up like cetirizine.

Also, why do you care if we apply semen in our heads. Where's the problem?, semen is not dangerous, not at all. Did not you got boobs for playing with finasteride before?, why don't you go and report all those threads of crazy people playing with their hormones first?, now that's really dangerous.

chimera
09-08-2013, 09:28 PM
Where did you read it was a hair growth stimulator? I know that the logic behind my reading is that it does have pge2. I guess that why they say that joke, that you have hair in your hands because you were jacking off lol

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0022564

hellouser
09-08-2013, 09:32 PM
As mentioned, the semen hypothesis should be taken to another thread. If its in serious tone, it won't be taken down. Dont worry about Fred reporting it. Lets stay on track with dermarolling/wounding.

fred970
09-08-2013, 09:38 PM
Also, why do you care if we apply semen in our heads. Where's the problem?, semen is not dangerous, not at all. Did not you got boobs for playing with finasteride before?, why don't you go and report all those threads of crazy people playing with their hormones first?, now that's really dangerous.

I've never taken finasteride. I got boobs because of psychiatric medication. Dermatologists usually don't prescribe finasteride for hair loss here in Belgium.

Semen is not dangerous, but I would appreciate if young hair loss sufferers could keep their dignity. Using semen to grow hair, why didn't anyone think of that before?! Jeez (no pun intended)...

DesperateOne
09-09-2013, 03:49 PM
I've never taken finasteride. I got boobs because of psychiatric medication. Dermatologists usually don't prescribe finasteride for hair loss here in Belgium.

Semen is not dangerous, but I would appreciate if young hair loss sufferers could keep their dignity. Using semen to grow hair, why didn't anyone think of that before?! Jeez (no pun intended)...

dignity? are you freaking kidding me. What would you do if you wound that semen is the holy grail? Would you disregard it? If you're disgusted by your own semen, then that's your problem, I guess if it was someone else's but it's your own stuff.

Tracy C
09-09-2013, 04:10 PM
OMG!!!

That would not be very helpful for FPB at all. LOL

greatjob!
09-09-2013, 04:22 PM
Every time I log on here I think this place couldn't possibly get any crazier, and every time I am wrong.

hellouser
09-09-2013, 05:08 PM
OMG!!!

That would not be very helpful for FPB at all. LOL

Well, depending how you perform in the sack, it could be very helpful.

Pentarou
09-09-2013, 05:48 PM
We reeaaallly (IMO) need a 'log' thread with jut people stating if they are doing the protocol, or some variation thereof, e.g. larger or smaller dermaroller needles, more wounding sessions per weeks, and updating if anything changes. This thread is getting crowded.

BTW I'm getting too reminded of some cetirizine and random experimentations carried out on forums last year after the prostaglandin announcement, I hope this doesn't end up being dud like all that turned out to be. I only paid attention to this because of the crossover with what Follica are doing.

DesperateOne
09-09-2013, 06:06 PM
We reeaaallly (IMO) need a 'log' thread with jut people stating if they are doing the protocol, or some variation thereof, e.g. larger or smaller dermaroller needles, more wounding sessions per weeks, and updating if anything changes. This thread is getting crowded.

BTW I'm getting too reminded of some cetirizine and random experimentations carried out on forums last year after the prostaglandin announcement, I hope this doesn't end up being dud like all that turned out to be. I only paid attention to this because of the crossover with what Follica are doing.

There is something to this method, people are seeing good results including me. The hair grows thicker, that's for sure, but I do t know abou new ones.

DesperateOne
09-09-2013, 06:25 PM
OMG!!!

That would not be very helpful for FPB at all. LOL

Come on Tracy, take one for the female community, it might work wonders for women. Haha :D

NeedHairASAP
09-09-2013, 07:23 PM
If semen worked then my girlfriend would have a beard.

john2399
09-09-2013, 07:35 PM
If semen worked then my girlfriend would have a beard.

good one.

fred970
09-09-2013, 07:39 PM
Can we go back to the real topic please?

Almost 3 weeks in with the 1,5 mm roller and minoxidil for me. And I think I think I'm starting to see some change, but it could just be my mind tricking me.

LevonHelms
09-09-2013, 08:57 PM
Last night was roll 7 for me.
I'm seeing the usual, lots of vellus hairs and a few terminals popping up around the hairline. What's really blowing my mind is how fast those new terminals are growing. Seems like double the usual rate of growth. Anyone else seeing this?

hellouser
09-09-2013, 09:00 PM
Last night was roll 7 for me.
I'm seeing the usual, lots of vellus hairs and a few terminals popping up around the hairline. What's really blowing my mind is how fast those new terminals are growing. Seems like double the usual rate of growth. Anyone else seeing this?

Still NOTHING on my end. Bah.

Thinning87
09-09-2013, 09:18 PM
Guys it would be great to see more before and after pictures if you can

DesperateOne
09-09-2013, 10:14 PM
Guys it would be great to see more before and after pictures if you can

Sure, why don't you lead by example

Thinning87
09-09-2013, 11:04 PM
Sure, why don't you lead by example

Maybe because I'm not dermarolling...?

What's with the tone get off your period man

LongWayHome
09-09-2013, 11:32 PM
There is one thing I don't understand:

Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?

I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-10-2013, 12:05 AM
from my understanding and the study this looks like the growth factors are being released. maybe roll more? and wait more in between...

i am sorry here .

hellouser and other rep members i have an interesting q

do we all heal in the same pace?
Last night was roll 7 for me.
I'm seeing the usual, lots of vellus hairs and a few terminals popping up around the hairline. What's really blowing my mind is how fast those new terminals are growing. Seems like double the usual rate of growth. Anyone else seeing this?

Hal0
09-10-2013, 03:24 AM
There is one thing I don't understand:

Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?

I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.

I'm actually trying with Fin, but i dont use minox..

thinningTooSoon
09-10-2013, 05:00 AM
I am on my 2nd week of the derma rolling trial, still very optimistic, and I know it's way too early too see results from this trial.

However, I am not sure if its a coincidence but my hair seems to be thinner, I have just started using this shampoo on a daily basis:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000LNEB1A/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00

I have read that these shampoos can cause shedding if used too often, any advice would be appreciated.

DesperateOne
09-10-2013, 07:17 AM
Maybe because I'm not dermarolling...?

What's with the tone get off your period man

What tone? It's a simple answer, but if you're not doing the trial yourself, why do you feel you have any say in this?

DesperateOne
09-10-2013, 07:19 AM
There is one thing I don't understand:

Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?

I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.

I think that if you're not taking a DHT blocker and have your hair loss relatively under control, then this is useless. You will keep losing hair and you will not notice the positive effects of it if any. Then you will hear all sorts of people that are not on fin, oh this stuff doesn't work.

the_dude78
09-10-2013, 07:54 AM
There is one thing I don't understand:

Is everyone who uses that method, the dermarolling + minox,
takes fin too? or another DHT blocker?

I wonder if it's even worth trying if your DHT is still kicking in your body.

In the study we're trying to replicate, the participants weren't on fin, so if the study is legit you should see results with only dermarolling+minoxidil.

Thinning87
09-10-2013, 11:13 AM
What tone? It's a simple answer, but if you're not doing the trial yourself, why do you feel you have any say in this?

It's the answer of a woman on her period, and you're continuing to a that way.

The fact that I'm not participating in the trial doesn't mean that I can't ask if people can post more pictures. I am considering to start as well, I'm not trying to change what other people are doing.

So shut your mouth.

DesperateOne
09-10-2013, 11:59 AM
It's the answer of a woman on her period, and you're continuing to a that way.

The fact that I'm not participating in the trial doesn't mean that I can't ask if people can post more pictures. I am considering to start as well, I'm not trying to change what other people are doing.

So shut your mouth.

I was unaware that you're able to sense tone in words, considering you can't hear it. But I you say so, I can say the same thing, you're demanding in a very bad tony, pictures.

So YOU shut up and stop demanding, if you're not contributing, you're slowing us down, so go to hell.

Thinning87
09-10-2013, 12:24 PM
I was unaware that you're able to sense tone in words, considering you can't hear it. But I you say so, I can say the same thing, you're demanding in a very bad tony, pictures.

So YOU shut up and stop demanding, if you're not contributing, you're slowing us down, so go to hell.

It's very simple: I'm a member of the forum and I can therefore participate to all threads and ask if people can post pictures, especially if they claim improvement.

That's why we're here in the first place, you dumb******.

Borealis
09-10-2013, 12:36 PM
Take your petty squabbling elsewhere guys, the rest of us couldn't care less for it. Let's reserve the thread for actual insight/information.

hellouser
09-10-2013, 12:46 PM
Has anyone been shedding SKIN in large flakes while dermarolling?

mrblazer
09-10-2013, 12:59 PM
Yes hellouser this is happening with me lasting 3-4 days after rolling. I apply oils after rolling which help though.

DesperateOne
09-10-2013, 02:00 PM
Yes hellouser this is happening with me lasting 3-4 days after rolling. I apply oils after rolling which help though.

Same here, but I don't apply oils, thinking of applying Mico though.

brunobald
09-10-2013, 02:28 PM
I bought this cheap usb microscope for taking pictures of seeds for work. I also wanted it for taking pictures of my scalp when I start dermarolling. Here are some sample I took about an hour ago. This scope would be awesome to view the wounds from a dermaroller.

Pic 1........Beard Hair
Pic 2........Close up of follicle
Pic 3........Thinning Patch.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veho-VMS-004-Discovery-Deluxe-USB-Microscope-Brand-new-/180483156619?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_E quipment_ET&hash=item2a05a26a8b

http://s24.postimg.org/m0tkxjo1d/beard.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/m0tkxjo1d/)

http://s24.postimg.org/gbdcd8hv5/close_up.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/gbdcd8hv5/)

http://s24.postimg.org/a084wtgmp/thinning.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/a084wtgmp/)

LongWayHome
09-10-2013, 02:41 PM
In the study we're trying to replicate, the participants weren't on fin, so if the study is legit you should see results with only dermarolling+minoxidil.

Thank you.

LevonHelms
09-10-2013, 05:11 PM
Has anyone been shedding SKIN in large flakes while dermarolling?

No, not that I've noticed. And I'm rolling hard, looks similar to the pic you posted after I'm done. Seems there are some other guys seeing skin flaking though so I'm not sure what to make of that.

GreyGhost1864
09-10-2013, 05:33 PM
My first 4 rolling sessions no flaking. My 5th my whole scalp peeled. The skin on my scalp is baby skin soft. Lots of elongated blond hairs. Was thinking about doing a quick just for men hair color then doing pics. Will be 41 in Nov. Just want a few good years. Pray fellas!
Ghost

Conpecia
09-10-2013, 08:26 PM
My first 4 rolling sessions no flaking. My 5th my whole scalp peeled. The skin on my scalp is baby skin soft. Lots of elongated blond hairs. Was thinking about doing a quick just for men hair color then doing pics. Will be 41 in Nov. Just want a few good years. Pray fellas!
Ghost

still got a solid 20 years ghost my dad is 62 and pulling women like crazy on the online dating sites

DesperateOne
09-10-2013, 10:53 PM
No, not that I've noticed. And I'm rolling hard, looks similar to the pic you posted after I'm done. Seems there are some other guys seeing skin flaking though so I'm not sure what to make of that.

I think you will notice on week 5 or so, like me, I shake my hair and see lots of it. I think those are the skin cells from the first roll I did. Maybe your skin takes longer to heal, would you say you have soft or hard skin. I personally have soft skin, if that helps. I think by dermarolling we are providing a lot of good nutrients to the scalp, like a corn field, adding fertilizer.

Knockin on NW4
09-10-2013, 11:25 PM
Has anyone been shedding SKIN in large flakes while dermarolling?


no large flakes but definitely an increase of skin shed, lots of it.

PatientlyWaiting
09-12-2013, 12:20 AM
What do you guys use to clean your dermaroller? I know it's somewhere in this thread but can't find it. Some alcohol.

PatientlyWaiting
09-12-2013, 12:23 AM
And will this one be good enough?

http://www.amazon.com/Microneedle-System-Roller-Medical-Stainless/dp/B004ATTGSY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1378970436&sr=8-2&keywords=derma+roller

Chromeo
09-12-2013, 08:53 AM
And will this one be good enough?

http://www.amazon.com/Microneedle-System-Roller-Medical-Stainless/dp/B004ATTGSY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1378970436&sr=8-2&keywords=derma+roller

Yes.

JDW
09-12-2013, 09:13 AM
I bought this cheap usb microscope for taking pictures of seeds for work. I also wanted it for taking pictures of my scalp when I start dermarolling. Here are some sample I took about an hour ago. This scope would be awesome to view the wounds from a dermaroller.

Pic 1........Beard Hair
Pic 2........Close up of follicle
Pic 3........Thinning Patch.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veho-VMS-004-Discovery-Deluxe-USB-Microscope-Brand-new-/180483156619?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_E quipment_ET&hash=item2a05a26a8b

http://s24.postimg.org/m0tkxjo1d/beard.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/m0tkxjo1d/)

http://s24.postimg.org/gbdcd8hv5/close_up.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/gbdcd8hv5/)

http://s24.postimg.org/a084wtgmp/thinning.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/a084wtgmp/)

Excellent pics man, any way to ensure you're taking shots o the same area? Would be interesting to see developments

brunobald
09-12-2013, 09:58 AM
Excellent pics man, any way to ensure you're taking shots o the same area? Would be interesting to see developments

I have a few ideas.

1. Hena ink to mark an area. stains the skin for months
2. Sewing needle Pin prick and tattoo ink to mark the area. You can buy tattoo ink for about $2 on ebay new.
3. Take pics near a scar, mole or birthmark if you have one.
4. Make a resin cast of your face, then permenetly mount the camera in the cast. The cast would be like a face mask that you index onto your face. Your facial features would make sure it always sits back in the same spot. This is overkill but it would mean you don't need a tattoo or mark on the skin.

hellouser
09-12-2013, 11:32 AM
I have a few ideas.

1. Hena ink to mark an area. stains the skin for months


Fantastic idea! Actually, Henna's only last about a week. But just make a small dot wherever needed and keep applying it every week.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-12-2013, 12:14 PM
guys anyone seeing results?

bigentries
09-12-2013, 12:44 PM
4 sessions on the hairline and still nothing, no vellus coming out

I'll complete the 12 weeks, but at this point I don't trust the study anymore

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-12-2013, 12:53 PM
you roll deep enough? i think after 6 sessions the results appear.....
4 sessions on the hairline and still nothing, no vellus coming out

I'll complete the 12 weeks, but at this point I don't trust the study anymore

Stocione
09-12-2013, 01:07 PM
Multiple people have reported results, but they are all deep wounding - meaning drawing significant amounts of blood. Also note, that folks with a recalcitrant minoxidil treatment past won't likely see mind blowing results, just improved results. Of the 12 individual who used fin/minox in the past WITHOUT success, there was a split between those that had a +1 or +2 response.

************ is a bit better for following users with success, as the folks there are a bit more aggressive in their wounding.

Stocione
09-12-2013, 01:12 PM
I also had a brief exchange with one of the researchers on the study. He indicated that they were drawing blood when rolling. Mild erythmia apparently meant that they stopped once they started noting blood throughout the scalp. So if you aren't bleeding, I recommend pressing harder and faster. It really doesn't hurt that much as you will have adrenaline pumping from the vigor of the motion. I actually hurts more to go slow and shallow.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-12-2013, 01:13 PM
nice post so i am jumbing on for sure i guess,i also noticed the good results of ***.

thanks

hope it works . for now on i am testing minox foam for allercic reactions then i buzz or shave and do the study HARD
Multiple people have reported results, but they are all deep wounding - meaning drawing significant amounts of blood. Also note, that folks with a recalcitrant minoxidil treatment past won't likely see mind blowing results, just improved results. Of the 12 individual who used fin/minox in the past WITHOUT success, there was a split between those that had a +1 or +2 response.

************ is a bit better for following users with success, as the folks there are a bit more aggressive in their wounding.

clandestine
09-12-2013, 01:36 PM
you roll deep enough? i think after 6 sessions the results appear.....

Study was undergone for 12 weeks.

Our members should hope to do the same.

clandestine
09-12-2013, 01:39 PM
I've been on minoxidil for 4 days now, will start my derma rolling session tonight with a 1.0mm roller. Will in time move up to 1.5mm.

bigentries
09-12-2013, 02:19 PM
Are there any pics?

The only pics I've seen here are not that impressive and difficult to compare. Just keep your emotions in check, people were also claiming that voltaren was the cure a few months ago because a guy was getting some results with it and minox but it lead nowhere in the end

PatientlyWaiting
09-12-2013, 02:45 PM
What do you guys use to clean your dermaroller? I know it's somewhere in this thread but can't find it. Some alcohol.

^ Some one, please.

Buster
09-12-2013, 03:08 PM
^ Some one, please.

From what I've read people are using Isopropyl or betadine.

Stocione
09-12-2013, 05:05 PM
Not that impressive? It's been like five or six weeks since people started... And yes, there are photos over there. This also has an actual double blind study plus numerous cotz studies supporting its theory. I sincerely doubt it won't do something... although most people on these boards are likely recalcitrant to minoxidil (or they wouldn't be messing around with experimental treatments) so the results won't be quite as good as some experienced in the study.

bigentries
09-12-2013, 05:39 PM
Not that impressive? It's been like five or six weeks since people started... And yes, there are photos over there. This also has an actual double blind study plus numerous cotz studies supporting its theory. I sincerely doubt it won't do something... although most people on these boards are likely recalcitrant to minoxidil (or they wouldn't be messing around with experimental treatments) so the results won't be quite as good as some experienced in the study.

Double blind? How was the study double blind?

The thing is that, the results were impressive, and claimed to be significant at 6 weeks, you would expect people to be reporting something by now, as far as I know, only one guy in the thread has shown something

And the question of the length of the hair in the study hasn't been clarified, there is no way their hair grew that fast in just 3 months

Edit: My bad, the evaluator is claimed to be blind in the study

Stocione
09-12-2013, 06:08 PM
Just saw your edit, but in any case we know there is no placebo effect associated with hair growth - look at pretty much any control side study and they lose hair.

Anyway, they claimed new follicles at six weeks although the degree of significance and cosmetic appearance is not made clear. What's more, that's the earliest they noted growth - meaning that some responders may not have seen anything in that time frame. Given how few people are doing 1.5mm deep wounding with bleeding AND a shaved head, it's not surprising we have so few positive reports and photos so far. But we DO have some positive reports and WE do have two or three people with photos floating around. I'm somewhat surprised that you would think we have more. I'd wager there are only twenty or thirty people doing this with the correct length and intensity and most of them probably don't have shaved heads. Give it time and stay optimistic. Not every microneedler saw a +3 response but every single one saw some positive response.

The length of the hair is actually explained in one of the figures where they note that the rate of regrowth is increased significantly in the microneedilng group. I asked the researcher about this and he confirmed that many individuals in the microneedling group had accelerated hair growth rates.

chimera
09-12-2013, 06:17 PM
And the question of the length of the hair in the study hasn't been clarified, there is no way their hair grew that fast in just 3 months


This bothers me a lot too...



The length of the hair is actually explained in one of the figures where they note that the rate of regrowth is increased significantly in the microneedilng group. I asked the researcher about this and he confirmed that many individuals in the microneedling group had accelerated hair growth rates.

Yeah, but if not some kind of regrowth, then I think that we should be able to see at least this effect by now... and we're not

bigentries
09-12-2013, 06:24 PM
Just saw your edit, but in any case we know there is no placebo effect associated with hair growth - look at pretty much any control side study and they lose hair.

Anyway, they claimed new follicles at six weeks although the degree of significance and cosmetic appearance is not made clear. What's more, that's the earliest they noted growth - meaning that some responders may not have seen anything in that time frame. Given how few people are doing 1.5mm deep wounding with bleeding AND a shaved head, it's not surprising we have so few positive reports and photos so far. But we DO have some positive reports and WE do have two or three people with photos floating around. I'm somewhat surprised that you would think we have more. I'd wager there are only twenty or thirty people doing this with the correct length and intensity and most of them probably don't have shaved heads. Give it time and stay optimistic. Not every microneedler saw a +3 response but every single one saw some positive response.

The length of the hair is actually explained in one of the figures where they note that the rate of regrowth is increased significantly in the microneedilng group. I asked the researcher about this and he confirmed that many individuals in the microneedling group had accelerated hair growth rates.

Again, as far as I know, only one guy has shown pics, and while at least he is getting something, it's not the amount of growth reported and easily explained with just minox use. And it wasn't just the dermarolling group, one pic in the minox group also shows an extreme grow for just 3 months

I'm sorry but "remaining optimistic" usually means to avoid any critical thinking in hair loss forums, I choose to remain skeptic, not "negative", I'm still on the trial, but I refuse to fool myself into not seeing that some things just don't add up

greatjob!
09-12-2013, 07:51 PM
You guys are just repeating every mistake everyone has ever made on this and other forums. People on here jump on and off treatments because they didn't see results within a month or two, and they never know if it would have worked because they didn't wait long enough. I know what the study said, but you can't realistically expect any treatment for hairloss to show cosmetic results before 6 months or longer. There is a reason why fin and minox take time to work, and it's not because they are shit treatments, it's because it takes time to reverse miniaturization and hair grows at a snails pace. Everyone needs to relax. Just roll every week and try not to think about it. I'm planning on doing this for a year before I decide if I will quit or not.

Thinning87
09-12-2013, 08:27 PM
Well said

LevonHelms
09-12-2013, 09:44 PM
This bothers me a lot too...



Yeah, but if not some kind of regrowth, then I think that we should be able to see at least this effect by now... and we're not

I am! My hair is without a doubt, growing crazy fast.

clandestine
09-12-2013, 10:01 PM
Everyone;

How long do we let the roller soak in Isopropyl in order to clean it after rolling? A couple minutes?

DesperateOne
09-12-2013, 10:14 PM
For those of you who are doing this experiment without minox, it will be useless to you. It has already been proven by Dr. Cot that Derma rolling alone will create peach fuzz but that's it, it will not create terminal hair. Just saying this because I know there is a few people out there that are doing this experiment without the minox. Also, yes if you really want to see results, then you will need to do it more aggressively, I have already ordered my 2.5mm roller and it should be here next week. There is some people that say that the 2.5mm actually hurts less than the 1.5mm, I do hope that is true. It might be because when you get a deeper wound, usually your body tries to counteract with natural painkillers produced in your brain. Anyway, good luck to every and remember to be consistent and do it for at least 6 months.

greatjob!
09-13-2013, 12:05 AM
About the pain, I'm not condoning drug use but before I roll I have a few drinks and "shmoke a belw" (for my workaholic fans) and I feel nothing. Better than jerking off or rubbing jizz on your head or whatever other members were talking about.

LongWayHome
09-13-2013, 12:22 AM
For those of you who are doing this experiment without minox, it will be useless to you. It has already been proven by Dr. Cot that Derma rolling alone will create peach fuzz but that's it, it will not create terminal hair. Just saying this because I know there is a few people out there that are doing this experiment without the minox. Also, yes if you really want to see results, then you will need to do it more aggressively, I have already ordered my 2.5mm roller and it should be here next week. There is some people that say that the 2.5mm actually hurts less than the 1.5mm, I do hope that is true. It might be because when you get a deeper wound, usually your body tries to counteract with natural painkillers produced in your brain. Anyway, good luck to every and remember to be consistent and do it for at least 6 months.

That's the spirit.

doke
09-13-2013, 01:23 AM
I got balkan 176 its 88% volume in uk from whisky exchange.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-13-2013, 02:03 AM
guys is 540 needles not good? might it work less? can find 192 in my area....

http://www.droller.gr/store/

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-13-2013, 03:07 AM
i ordered it
will it do as 192?

clandestine
09-13-2013, 05:15 AM
Everyone;

How long do we let the roller soak in Isopropyl in order to clean it after rolling? A couple minutes?

Please someone answer;

Stocione
09-13-2013, 07:25 AM
Let it soak overnight, that's what I do.

Stocione
09-13-2013, 07:26 AM
No, 192 gives better penetration and deeper wounding for sure. Think of the person sleeping on a bed of needles.

Stocione
09-13-2013, 07:33 AM
You guys are just repeating every mistake everyone has ever made on this and other forums. People on here jump on and off treatments because they didn't see results within a month or two, and they never know if it would have worked because they didn't wait long enough. I know what the study said, but you can't realistically expect any treatment for hairloss to show cosmetic results before 6 months or longer. There is a reason why fin and minox take time to work, and it's not because they are shit treatments, it's because it takes time to reverse miniaturization and hair grows at a snails pace. Everyone needs to relax. Just roll every week and try not to think about it. I'm planning on doing this for a year before I decide if I will quit or not.


Again, as far as I know, only one guy has shown pics, and while at least he is getting something, it's not the amount of growth reported and easily explained with just minox use. And it wasn't just the dermarolling group, one pic in the minox group also shows an extreme grow for just 3 months

I'm sorry but "remaining optimistic" usually means to avoid any critical thinking in hair loss forums, I choose to remain skeptic, not "negative", I'm still on the trial, but I refuse to fool myself into not seeing that some things just don't add up

I'm glad you are staying on the treatment but have to disagree that you are using critical thinking. It seems to me that you've been around for so long that you are allowing past treatment/experimental failures to cloud your judgement.

The points you've raised so far have reasonable answers and I've tried to point those out to you. Everything does seem to add up, you are just allowing the lack of reliable reporters (which, sorry it's an internet forum - people aren't reliable reporters) to influence your opinion.

On a side note, it's critical that you understand that the microneedling group had a huge standard deviation, meaning results varied rather dramatically between very strong responses and moderately strong responses. Most users here are recalcitrant to minox meaning that they will fall into the lower range of that standard deviation. That means they might not see the maximal results expressed in the study.

Some people saw a greater increase in hair growth rate and overall hair counts than others in the microneedling group. It's misguided to expect everyone who's doing this trial to have the maximal response. So you'll have to understand that until we reach the three month mark, we really won't know much for sure.

Additionally, two people have actually posted photos over on ***, not one. Both have noted an increase in hair growth rate.

So keep at it and stay as skeptical as you like. Just don't bring a ton of negativity to an otherwise exciting thread. Best of luck to you!

LevonHelms
09-13-2013, 08:20 AM
For those of you who are doing this experiment without minox, it will be useless to you. It has already been proven by Dr. Cot that Derma rolling alone will create peach fuzz but that's it, it will not create terminal hair. Just saying this because I know there is a few people out there that are doing this experiment without the minox. Also, yes if you really want to see results, then you will need to do it more aggressively, I have already ordered my 2.5mm roller and it should be here next week. There is some people that say that the 2.5mm actually hurts less than the 1.5mm, I do hope that is true. It might be because when you get a deeper wound, usually your body tries to counteract with natural painkillers produced in your brain. Anyway, good luck to every and remember to be consistent and do it for at least 6 months.

That's a bit of a leap DesperateOne. The study showing only peach fuzz growth is from 1956 not Dr. Cotsarelis, and they were using dermabrasion not needling. Both Follica and the Indian study suggested dermarolling alone may be beneficial to alopecia.

That being said, I'm sure results will be much better with minoxidil thrown in.

As far as needle length everything beyond sticking with the 1.5 in the study is speculation. Yes, squeege says he's seeing great results with a 2.5. prettyfly saw great results with a .5. So who knows? Most people aren't even halfway through the study. Best of luck, keep us updated.

Stocione
09-13-2013, 08:25 AM
It's not necessarily a leap given that there are studies that show the more severe the wounding of the epidermis the greater the inflammatory and 'stem cell mode' response of GFs. Going with 2.0mm or above ensures complete disruption of the epidermis, as the needles do not entirely penetrate the scalp at their given depth. Either way though, it's speculation to suggest it will work better, but it is informed speculation!

LevonHelms
09-13-2013, 08:43 AM
It's not necessarily a leap given that there are studies that show the more severe the wounding of the epidermis the greater the inflammatory and 'stem cell mode' response of GFs. Going with 2.0mm or above ensures complete disruption of the epidermis, as the needles do not entirely penetrate the scalp at their given depth. Either way though, it's speculation to suggest it will work better, but it is informed speculation!

You have a point. There is the barbecued head guy to think about, lol. What length you using Stoc?

brunobald
09-13-2013, 08:59 AM
That's a bit of a leap DesperateOne. The study showing only peach fuzz growth is from 1956 not Dr. Cotsarelis, and they were using dermabrasion not needling. Both Follica and the Indian study suggested dermarolling alone may be beneficial to alopecia.

That being said, I'm sure results will be much better with minoxidil thrown in.

As far as needle length everything beyond sticking with the 1.5 in the study is speculation. Yes, squeege says he's seeing great results with a 2.5. prettyfly saw great results with a .5. So who knows? Most people aren't even halfway through the study. Best of luck, keep us updated.

The most recent follica patents do not suggest dermabrasion alone will give best results. In fact they suggest a combo of dermabrasion + plus deep cuts into the scalp both are made using a laser. Follica also apply lithium gluconate to supply lithium ions to the regenerating tissue this helps push the cells towards becoming hair follicules rather than plain skin.

hellouser
09-13-2013, 09:02 AM
The most recent follica patents do not suggest dermabrasion alone will give best results. In fact they suggest a combo of dermabrasion + plus deep cuts into the scalp both are made using a laser. Follica also apply lithium gluconate to supply lithium ions to the regenerating tissue this helps push the cells towards becoming hair follicules rather than plain skin.

How sure are we that that is all their procedure would use? What about FGF-9 and PGD2 inhibitors?

brunobald
09-13-2013, 09:06 AM
Not sure at all, but I would like to put together a mindmap in photoshop to combine all the ideas we have. Try and work out the best routine possible with lots of variations. There are lots of great ideas and info spread across multiple forums and bringing all this together and holding it in one updated .pdf that everyone can acess, I think might be useful?

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-13-2013, 09:13 AM
thanks bro
No, 192 gives better penetration and deeper wounding for sure. Think of the person sleeping on a bed of needles.

LevonHelms
09-13-2013, 09:23 AM
The most recent follica patents do not suggest dermabrasion alone will give best results. In fact they suggest a combo of dermabrasion + plus deep cuts into the scalp both are made using a laser. Follica also apply lithium gluconate to supply lithium ions to the regenerating tissue this helps push the cells towards becoming hair follicules rather than plain skin.

Right, I know. Guess I worded that badly. I only meant that dermarolling all by itself has been shown to be beneficial. Adding growth factors and stimulants would of course compound the effect.

brunobald
09-13-2013, 09:33 AM
Right, I know. Guess I worded that badly. I only meant that dermarolling all by itself has been shown to be beneficial. Adding growth factors and stimulants would of course compound the effect.

What are you planning on trying out first? Lithium gluconate? I also think a wider self supporting wound might work better too. The patent talks of a column of flesh being removed.

DesperateOne
09-13-2013, 10:33 AM
What are you planning on trying out first? Lithium gluconate? I also think a wider self supporting wound might work better too. The patent talks of a column of flesh being removed.

Yes, people have contacted the authors and they said that there was blood throughout the sessions. The only thing is that they didn't put it on the paper as they should have. Anyways, if you want results, I still think that you should do a super aggressive session and maybe wait more than a week before you do the next one, IMO. I also heard that lithium is dangerous, would have to research it though.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-13-2013, 10:53 AM
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Microneedle-Roller-Stretchmarks-Regeneration/dp/B0088I3ROW/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1379094676&sr=8-12&keywords=dermaroller

guys i order this then?

its 1.5mm 192 needles it doesnt say anything about needls diameter . the material is ok ?

thanks

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-13-2013, 12:16 PM
guys an info i read from a guys post on ***..
when skin gets pinkish is when stem cells are released...

do we know that?

clandestine
09-13-2013, 02:28 PM
So enough guys talking over at *** about applying semen to their scalps; apparently the science is sound.

Whose game :eek:

gladiator
09-13-2013, 02:35 PM
After reading this forum I have some input .
I think that wounding once per week as the study states is sufficient . apply tea tree cream directly after which is an amazing anti inflamm . Apply PSI ; post wounding (1.5 mm) then minox 2 times per day every other day .
Sounds like it would give an incredible stimulation and the tea tree cream is brilliant on its own as I use on skin wounds as an antibacterial and anti inflammatory and I'd dissipates the red ness over night . Psi is sold on the net and is a very potent stimulator . Also a tea tree shampoo would keep the scalp clean avoid germ .
Thoughts ?

brunobald
09-13-2013, 02:45 PM
Lol, this thread has the makings of a good southpark episode.

DesperateOne
09-13-2013, 03:16 PM
After reading this forum I have some input .
I think that wounding once per week as the study states is sufficient . apply tea tree cream directly after which is an amazing anti inflamm . Apply PSI ; post wounding (1.5 mm) then minox 2 times per day every other day .
Sounds like it would give an incredible stimulation and the tea tree cream is brilliant on its own as I use on skin wounds as an antibacterial and anti inflammatory and I'd dissipates the red ness over night . Psi is sold on the net and is a very potent stimulator . Also a tea tree shampoo would keep the scalp clean avoid germ .
Thoughts ?

Listen tea tree SALESMAN, we want inflammation to occur in order for the magic to happen, applying antiflamatory substances would be counter productive.

DesperateOne
09-13-2013, 03:19 PM
So enough guys talking over at *** about applying semen to their scalps; apparently the science is sound.

Whose game :eek:

I have been doing it for the past five days, the problem seems to be that it does t absorb as well as I would like it to. I will be getting my 2.5mm derma in about a week or two, they got delayed a bit. Will see if that's deep enough to reach the follicle. Also we need to apply when we see the skin turning pink, that is the magic signal that shows the skin is ready for minox or other topicals.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-13-2013, 03:38 PM
?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Microneedle-Roller-Stretchmarks-Regeneration/dp/B0088I3ROW/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1379094676&sr=8-12&keywords=dermaroller

guys i order this then?

its 1.5mm 192 needles it doesnt say anything about needls diameter . the material is ok ?

thanks

LevonHelms
09-13-2013, 04:02 PM
?

Yep, that'll work.

LevonHelms
09-13-2013, 04:06 PM
What are you planning on trying out first? Lithium gluconate? I also think a wider self supporting wound might work better too. The patent talks of a column of flesh being removed.

Right now I'm just sticking with the minoxidil. I know what I'm not rubbing on my head. Semen. lols

brunobald
09-14-2013, 06:45 AM
These derma pens might be less painfull to use even at 2.5mm? Lots of cheap chinese copys for offer on ebay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29bWwHzl1ec

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-14-2013, 08:00 AM
thanks brother

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-14-2013, 10:53 AM
http://www.hair losstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/69374-New-Dermaroller-Study-Thoughts-comments/page64

the_dude78
09-14-2013, 11:01 AM
http://www.hair losstalk.com/interact/showthread.php/69374-New-Dermaroller-Study-Thoughts-comments/page64

But no before pictures?

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-14-2013, 11:22 AM
no i dont see any

MackJames
09-14-2013, 12:51 PM
I'm on week five of derma rolling and minoxidil. I haven't noticed any new growth but my hair seems to be growing faster and hair texture feels slightly thicker. I've been on min for over a year and quit fin about seven month ago.

I didn't take any pics because when I started my hair was buzzed down to a 1 and now it's at 2. I'm considering experiment with other non-hormonal topicals. I've also been trying to get more sun on my scalp to prime my scalp skin further.

burtandernie
09-14-2013, 01:46 PM
You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.

DesperateOne
09-14-2013, 04:25 PM
You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.


Or that this will be it, with a little tweaking

Pentarou
09-14-2013, 04:38 PM
You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.

Well, the dermarolling study was based around and cites theoretical work by Dr Cotsarelis, and most if not all of the in-pipeline future treatments use work by Corsarelis as some kind of basis, so...

baldymcgee
09-15-2013, 06:03 AM
You know MPB treatments are in trouble when dermarolling is the top cutting edge/future treatment for many weeks in a row. Maybe that speaks to the poor future outlook.

I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.

But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.

Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.

So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.

doke
09-15-2013, 08:20 AM
I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.

But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.

Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.

So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.

did he have hairy right hand as well.

DesperateOne
09-15-2013, 08:26 AM
I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.

But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.

Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.

So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.

There is no doubt it's real, the science is there. It seems that most cases I have seen of real hair growth was on a significant wound. That obviously suggest that we're not doing enough damage, I already ordered a 2.5mm but I have to get some numbing cream or else I won't be able to tolerate it. Will do some major wounding and maybe wait like 10 days.

clandestine
09-15-2013, 08:31 AM
There is no doubt it's real, the science is there. It seems that most cases I have seen of real hair growth was on a significant wound. That obviously suggest that we're not doing enough damage, I already ordered a 2.5mm but I have to get some numbing cream or else I won't be able to tolerate it. Will do some major wounding and maybe wait like 10 days.

Be sure to keep a photo log brah.

JDW
09-15-2013, 09:11 AM
I really didn't think there was anything to this dermarolling/wounding thing.

But, I have to say, just yesterday I was at the beach and I noticed a guy with significant (but well-healed) scars across a section of his back.

Surrounding these scars and all along them: hairs. The rest of his back was quite hairless but there was an easily visible "hair line" across his scars.

So either dermarolling isn't the right kind of wounding, or people are doing it wrong (too deep or too shallow), or some other factor is at play. But wounding+new hair growth is absolutely real.

Interesting stuff. What I would add to this is that many people are only on week 3, 4 or 5 of the trial which in the original version lasted for 12 weeks with the results collated at that point.

Thinning87
09-15-2013, 09:20 AM
There is no doubt it's real, the science is there. It seems that most cases I have seen of real hair growth was on a significant wound. That obviously suggest that we're not doing enough damage, already ordered a 2.5mm but I have to get some numbing cream or else I won't be able to tolerate it. Will do some major wounding and maybe wait like 10 days.

Not necessarily. Could just be that the damage is sufficient but the wound needs to stay open longer for the growth factors to intervene. The intensity of wounding isn't the only variable in the equation. And I understand that you guys are thinking the deeper the wound, the longer it will stay open, but that doesn't necessarily improve odds of new hairs imo

Chromeo
09-15-2013, 10:02 AM
It'll be interesting to see how many report positive results when we reach the 12 week mark. I think it's great that a lot of us are pushing ahead and trying different approaches already, but I really want to be sure that the findings in the study can be replicated, first and foremost.

baldymcgee
09-15-2013, 10:04 AM
did he have hairy right hand as well.

I don't understand the reference.

Borealis
09-15-2013, 10:04 AM
I'm just about to undertake my 8th session. No significant results as of yet.

fred970
09-15-2013, 10:16 AM
1 month in for me. No visible difference yet either.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-15-2013, 11:03 AM
dont get us down
1 month in for me. No visible difference yet either.

DesperateOne
09-15-2013, 11:06 AM
1 month in for me. No visible difference yet either.

Fred, you need to lay off the forums, I don't know why but your negativity is always here. Even among us, you're like the most depressing and loose case on the MPB forums.

I have to say that diffuse thinners will see better results, if you're slick on the temples, there is little chance of you getting anything. just my opinion.

fred970
09-15-2013, 11:23 AM
You know I'm a pure diffuse thinner right? I still have like 10 hairs on my temples, if I see 20 in December, I'll let you guys know.

I'm not negative, just sceptical.

walrus
09-15-2013, 11:35 AM
Scepticism can be a good thing. Lets not get carried away until we see some more results.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-15-2013, 11:39 AM
guys i feel s hit. we are a bunch o young guys talking on a baldness forum

lol
why don we have a cure? jesus

hellouser
09-15-2013, 11:54 AM
guys i feel s hit. we are a bunch o young guys talking on a baldness forum

lol
why don we have a cure? jesus

The higher powers that be don't want us to live a satisfying life.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-15-2013, 11:57 AM
i am going to dermaroll hard hellouser tomorow i order my dermaroll and have 2.5 cans of minox foam. i am also going to take pics and buzz head. its the last tower for me.. i hope the study is true
The higher powers that be don't want us to live a satisfying life.

hellouser
09-15-2013, 12:04 PM
Fred, you need to lay off the forums, I don't know why but your negativity is always here. Even among us, you're like the most depressing and loose case on the MPB forums.

I have to say that diffuse thinners will see better results, if you're slick on the temples, there is little chance of you getting anything. just my opinion.

I don't see any negativity from the comment you quoted. I'm over a month in as well and I don't see a visible difference either.

Stocione
09-15-2013, 12:19 PM
I don't see any negativity from the comment you quoted. I'm over a month in as well and I don't see a visible difference either.

Aren't you still shedding though? I would be surprised if you will see much success if you haven't stabilized your hair loss a bit first.

Stocione
09-15-2013, 12:20 PM
I'm just about to undertake my 8th session. No significant results as of yet.

How hard are you rolling and what length are you using? Seeing significant amounts of blood?

hellouser
09-15-2013, 12:23 PM
I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.

Also, I've gone against waiting a full 24 hours before applying Minoxidil and applied it around 9 hours later. I don't believe waiting 24 hours is in line with the healing time simply because the microneedling wounds heal extremely quickly, probably within the 24 hour period.

Here's how I sliced up my scalp.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-right-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-left-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-front.jpg

Thinning87
09-15-2013, 12:23 PM
Aren't you still shedding though? I would be surprised if you will see much success if you haven't stabilized your hair loss a bit first.

Good point

hellouser
09-15-2013, 12:24 PM
Aren't you still shedding though? I would be surprised if you will see much success if you haven't stabilized your hair loss a bit first.

Shedding has decreased significantly, but I'm still shedding, yes. Probably around 50 or so hairs a day.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-15-2013, 12:28 PM
hellouser two points

a)do you heal completely untill some time before the next roll?aint there the time gap that the gfs are released no?

b)are we sure the cb properties dont influence the wounding theory in a way we dont want?


advice. buzz it until you regrow it and for better rolls and pics to compare

Stocione
09-15-2013, 12:33 PM
Shedding has decreased significantly, but I'm still shedding, yes. Probably around 50 or so hairs a day.

Good to hear but yeah, I think you need to get on RU before you'll see much. CB just doesn't work at the doses we are using... Also four to five weeks is not enough to notice anything besides increased rate of hair growth according to the study. The first appearance of new hairs was six weeks and that was likely only in a handful of the best responders.

burtandernie
09-15-2013, 02:08 PM
Wounding might have a place in the future for MPB, buts its far from a sure bet and like everything else is going to take lots of time and research to figure out to best use it. People doing it on there own as usual is never representative of the kind of results it can actually get when done properly.

greatjob!
09-15-2013, 02:14 PM
I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.

Also, I've gone against waiting a full 24 hours before applying Minoxidil and applied it around 9 hours later. I don't believe waiting 24 hours is in line with the healing time simply because the microneedling wounds heal extremely quickly, probably within the 24 hour period.

Here's how I sliced up my scalp.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-right-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-left-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-front.jpg
Holy shit hellouser you're not f**king around!! I guess I need to step my game up

greatjob!
09-15-2013, 02:18 PM
Also I might be imagining things but I feel like something is happening for me. It's too early for any real hair to be visible but I think my scalp is becoming darker which would indicate that smaller dark hairs may be starting to pop up. Maybe I'll pick up a macro lens to see if anything is going on.

clandestine
09-15-2013, 03:14 PM
I just dermarolled yesterday seeing how last week I wasn't very vigorous with my session. I know I pressed harder this time, but I get this weird feeling that each time I dermaroll, I bleed more easily than the following week. It's been about 4-5 sessions of dermarolling and I've yet to see any positive results from using Minox and CB with it. I'm going to be ordering RU next week as well and get back on it.

Also, I've gone against waiting a full 24 hours before applying Minoxidil and applied it around 9 hours later. I don't believe waiting 24 hours is in line with the healing time simply because the microneedling wounds heal extremely quickly, probably within the 24 hour period.

Here's how I sliced up my scalp.

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-right-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-left-temple.jpg

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-09-15-front.jpg

*Like.

clandestine
09-15-2013, 03:18 PM
Do you wash the blood off your scalp afterwards, or let it sit overnight?

If you've showered in the morning even, with warm water, shouldn't there be no scabbing or 'thin brown marks' as you say?

DesperateOne
09-15-2013, 04:02 PM
Also I might be imagining things but I feel like something is happening for me. It's too early for any real hair to be visible but I think my scalp is becoming darker which would indicate that smaller dark hairs may be starting to pop up. Maybe I'll pick up a macro lens to see if anything is going on.

Well take some pics or no one will believe shit. Haha, you also believe that we need to step our game up with the rolling. What is your Norwood and regimine

greatjob!
09-15-2013, 04:31 PM
Well take some pics or no one will believe shit. Haha, you also believe that we need to step our game up with the rolling. What is your Norwood and regimine

I do take pics, but nothing really shows up at this point. My norwood is a little difficult to tell, since I've had a hair transplant, but I am a very diffused nw 6 if it wasn't for the transplanted hair in the front half of my head.

As for regimen I'm following the study exactly with the addition of fin that I've been on for a few years.

Conpecia
09-15-2013, 08:14 PM
just finished my 5th session, really went to town over the whole mpb area. bleeding around temples.

should we shower or clean our scalps? read on *** some guys just sleep and wash the blood off the next morning. any logic to that?

greatjob!
09-15-2013, 08:21 PM
just finished my 5th session, really went to town over the whole mpb area. bleeding around temples.

should we shower or clean our scalps? read on *** some guys just sleep and wash the blood off the next morning. any logic to that?

I don't see the point in leaving the blood on, there isn't anything leaving that blood on your scalp will accomplish aside from making you look worse. The magic is happening down at the follicles, not on the surface of your scalp. I usually roll at night right before I take a shower and wash my head in the shower.

Knockin on NW4
09-15-2013, 09:37 PM
Hellouser is a hairloss RockStar! :cool:

DesperateOne
09-15-2013, 09:56 PM
I don't see the point in leaving the blood on, there isn't anything leaving that blood on your scalp will accomplish aside from making you look worse. The magic is happening down at the follicles, not on the surface of your scalp. I usually roll at night right before I take a shower and wash my head in the shower.

Well if you shampoo then it will get in the wounds, and may be bad. If anything, what I recommend is boiling some water and let it cool, then RU se off the blood with it. So no imperfections get in, even ones from the shower water like chlorine.

greatjob!
09-15-2013, 10:12 PM
Well if you shampoo then it will get in the wounds, and may be bad. If anything, what I recommend is boiling some water and let it cool, then RU se off the blood with it. So no imperfections get in, even ones from the shower water like chlorine.

I think that may be overly cautious/over thinking things, but who knows. Generally with published studies they include everything in the protocol of importance and leave out the things considered to be of little to no consequence.

Also it's pretty standard procedure to wash wounds after they occur be it from injury or surgery, so I would assume if it was important to not wash the hair after rolling it would certainly be included in the study. And not washing after you roll will surely increase the chance of infection as well.

DesperateOne
09-15-2013, 10:54 PM
I think that may be overly cautious/over thinking things, but who knows. Generally with published studies they include everything in the protocol of importance and leave out the things considered to be of little to no consequence.

Also it's pretty standard procedure to wash wounds after they occur be it from injury or surgery, so I would assume if it was important to not wash the hair after rolling it would certainly be included in the study. And not washing after you roll will surely increase the chance of infection as well.

You would think that but... no. Remember, this was a simple pilot, not a really well controlled experiment. People have contacted them and it seems they left out a few things and also sugar coated the story a bit. Like they admitted that participants typically did bleed and not mildly. Well yes, infection is a concern with blood drying out. I don't think blood contributes in anyway, or is there some science with it and wounding?

At any rate, I am so freaking tired of this curse. My cousin's dad is a nw7 and it should of been him that got this curse, not me ****.

greatjob!
09-15-2013, 11:06 PM
At any rate, I am so freaking tired of this curse. My cousin's dad is a nw7 and it should of been him that got this curse, not me ****.

Tell me about it! I have like 30+ cousins and they all have perfect hair. I'm the only person in my huge ass family that started loosing hair at a young age, aside from one of my uncles I have less native hair than all of them and they are at least double my age.

I remember one of the worst realizations I ever made was in high school when I realized that every one of 40+ year old male teachers had more hair than I did.

Stocione
09-16-2013, 05:00 AM
You would think that but... no. Remember, this was a simple pilot, not a really well controlled experiment. People have contacted them and it seems they left out a few things and also sugar coated the story a bit. Like they admitted that participants typically did bleed and not mildly.

Please, Please, Please stop spreading misinformation. I'm the person who contacted them and confirmed that blood was considered an immediate endpoint in treatment. This WAS a well controlled experiment. And when publishing a study in a journal you typically have a wordcount. The methods section is not meant to describe in detail the methodology so that others can reproduce it. In a small journal it typically just provides a general outline of steps. If you want to reproduce these sorts of studies, you need to contact the researchers. That's why they list email addresses to paying subscribers! Did you happen to notice that they also didn't include the details of the roller, including needle count? These are all EXTREMELY important details. But they likely didn't have room and their priorities were the results and discussion sections.

This isn't a step by step guide to how they dermarolled... so please stop saying they sugar coated things. They considered blood as an end point to BE mild erythmia. And I never once reported that the researcher indicated that they bleed profusely. Only that there was blood.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-16-2013, 05:04 AM
Stocione can you make a thread of the dets you got?
i think we need them
dont we?

clandestine
09-16-2013, 05:40 AM
I remember one of the worst realizations I ever made was in high school when I realized that every one of 40+ year old male teachers had more hair than I did.

Right in the feels.

MackJames
09-16-2013, 06:00 AM
I've been rolling until the scalp begins to become red. I have a little blood but nowhere near as much blood as hellouser. Should I be rolling more vigorously?

fred970
09-16-2013, 06:07 AM
OK I shaved my head today and I must admit I (think I) noticed a lot of new vellus hairs.

Stocione
09-16-2013, 06:12 AM
I've been rolling until the scalp begins to become red. I have a little blood but nowhere near as much blood as hellouser. Should I be rolling more vigorously?

Honestly I don't know for sure. The researcher only said that blood was considered an end point, so once they saw blood in a part of the scalp they stopped rolling that portion of the scalp.

Based on people's responses so far on the forums though, I'd say you should aim to get about as much blood as hellouser though.

Stocione
09-16-2013, 06:14 AM
Stocione can you make a thread of the dets you got?
i think we need them
dont we?

We don't. The researcher was a smart guy, but at this point he was guessing just as much as the rest of us. He also wasn't the lead author, so he wasn't the most knowledgeable of the bunch (just the only one that responded to me!). Most people are following the same protocol they used with the exception that we are all using way more needles in our rollers than they did, if I remember his email correctly. .

hellouser
09-16-2013, 07:43 AM
Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

Hicks
09-16-2013, 08:11 AM
Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

After wounding I apply Coconut oil to reduce scar tissue from forming (yes I know the wound is small). I apply minox 24 hours later (I do not want that stuff in my blood (I see no reason why I can't do it the next morning beside the fact my head burns in the shower), and the next moring I shower using 2% Nizoral then more coconut oil). Every body is going to react differently to everything. listen to your body and go from there.

I thought the idea of the dermaroller was to signal your bodies own growth factors to the area that is wounded then let it start the healing process during which we need to induce as much assists to growth factor as possible in the window of time. To much wounding might lead to the wrong growth factor/out come (counter productive)?????

Just my thoughts

Stocione
09-16-2013, 08:19 AM
After wounding I apply Coconut oil to reduce scar tissue from forming (yes I know the wound is small). I apply minox 24 hours later (I do not want that stuff in my blood (I see no reason why I can't do it the next morning beside the fact my head burns in the shower), and the next moring I shower using 2% Nizoral then more coconut oil). Every body is going to react differently to everything. listen to your body and go from there.

I thought the idea of the dermaroller was to signal your bodies own growth factors to the area that is wounded then let it start the healing process during which we need to induce as much assists to growth factor as possible in the window of time. To much wounding might lead to the wrong growth factor/out come (counter productive)?????

Just my thoughts

Do you have any studies to support your thoughts? Look, I don't want to be a jerk here but people are offering wild speculation based on zero science. There are well documented studies on the wounding response and the specific growth factors released at certain times during the inflammatory process.

Every body does NOT react differently. There is variance, sure. But a normal functioning inflammatory response looks relatively similar between individuals. Further, It's entirely unclear that we want to promote faster healing; that might even be counterproductive.

I think there is good reason to think that putting minoxidil on immediately after wounding may be beneficial, in part because of the time frame it takes for minox to upregulate PGE2 and in turn for the PGE2 to induce FGF9. Still, this is all guesswork. But personally I think if that's what Cots is doing, we also should be doing it.

People don't seem to realize that wounding is a well controlled response. You are free to do whatever you want, of course. Just please take the time to read the studies and research and you'll have a better idea of what you should be doing to see results.

Rather specifically, I would not put ANY anti-inflammatory on directly after wounding... particularly nothing like emu oil or coconut oil. You are driving full speed and then placing a speed block in the way.

Hicks
09-16-2013, 08:41 AM
Do you have any studies to support your thoughts? Look, I don't want to be a jerk here but people are offering wild speculation based on zero science. There are well documented studies on the wounding response and the specific growth factors released at certain times during the inflammatory process.

Every body does NOT react differently. There is variance, sure. But a normal functioning inflammatory response looks relatively similar between individuals. Further, It's entirely unclear that we want to promote faster healing; that might even be counterproductive.

I think there is good reason to think that putting minoxidil on immediately after wounding may be beneficial, in part because of the time frame it takes for minox to upregulate PGE2 and in turn for the PGE2 to induce FGF9. Still, this is all guesswork. But personally I think if that's what Cots is doing, we also should be doing it.

People don't seem to realize that wounding is a well controlled response. You are free to do whatever you want, of course. Just please take the time to read the studies and research and you'll have a better idea of what you should be doing to see results.

Rather specifically, I would not put ANY anti-inflammatory on directly after wounding... particularly nothing like emu oil or coconut oil. You are driving full speed and then placing a speed block in the way.

Your right, I'm wrong.... Sorry :( "HUGS"

greatjob!
09-16-2013, 10:23 AM
Here's an interesting question:

If the objective of the dermarolling community trial is to create a 'cheap mans version of Follica' why, unlike Follica, are we waiting 24 hours before applying topicals?

In the recent patent made public with Follica's method, they apply their topical treatments soon after the scalp is wounded with a laser. In their other published articles, they stated 'amonixidil' was applied after wounding. I've mentioned it before but my body heals FAST, I had 4 wisdom teeth pulled recently and gum grafting, both times my surgeon (performing both procedures) says my anatomy is crazy and hasn't seen anyone heal that quickly in a long time. The same happens to my scalp when I dermaroll, the itchiness/soreness from the dermarolling is gone after a few hours which leads me to believe that those open wounds created by the dermaroller have closed up quickly, which from what I gather, is going against Follica's method as they try to SLOW DOWN the healing process and apply their topicals.

Thoughts??

I also heal extremely fast, a few hours after I roll it looks like nothing happened.

The last time I rolled I applied minox right after. I know the risks of it going systemic, but I have an in-human tolerance to every drug I've ever taken so I wasn't too worried about it. I didn't have any issues so I'm going to continue to use it right after I roll unless I experience any issues. I figure if I don't have any sides it can only help with regrowth whether it be from up-regulation of growth factors or just due to minox absorption.

Knockin on NW4
09-16-2013, 12:59 PM
ive been applying rogaine foam directly after rolling, it burns so good! and it cleans the blood specs off. my scalp is sensitive to touch for at least 24h post wounding.

LongWayHome
09-16-2013, 02:11 PM
ive been applying rogaine foam directly after rolling, it burns so good! and it cleans the blood specs off. my scalp is sensitive to touch for at least 24h post wounding.

Same here.
Actually I did wait 24 hours, but my scalp is still "warm" and the foam absorbed immediately, and it definitely never felt like it.

It was weird, but good weird.

baldee
09-16-2013, 02:33 PM
I honestly cannot understand how you can go out the next day with all that wounding and nobody notices anything.

thinningTooSoon
09-16-2013, 02:35 PM
I did my third roll last night, and rinsed the dried blood off this morning before going to work.

hellouser
09-16-2013, 02:35 PM
I honestly cannot understand how you can go out the next day with all that wounding and nobody notices anything.

I've got enough density to hide it... somewhat.

Chromeo
09-16-2013, 02:37 PM
I honestly cannot understand how you can go out the next day with all that wounding and nobody notices anything.

It's pretty much unnoticeable the next day.

Conpecia
09-16-2013, 04:27 PM
i for one am going to follow the study. if after 12 weeks i see absolutely nothing, i'll start tweaking things, wounding more, applying minox quicker, applying growth factors, etc. but since i'm on dutasteride i'm no longer worried about losing the rest of my hair, so i can wait things out and make adjustments.

the key to controlling mpb is finding a well-proven and scientifically backed regimen and then sticking with it religiously for a long time. hopping from treatment to treatment won't help at this stage.

Dan26
09-16-2013, 04:31 PM
i for one am going to follow the study. if after 12 weeks i see absolutely nothing, i'll start tweaking things, wounding more, applying minox quicker, applying growth factors, etc. but since i'm on dutasteride i'm no longer worried about losing the rest of my hair, so i can wait things out and make adjustments.

the key to controlling mpb is finding a well-proven and scientifically backed regimen and then sticking with it religiously for a long time. hopping from treatment to treatment won't help at this stage.

ya bro u are set as far as density and crown/anterior region with dut rolling and minox etc...if hairline slowly gets worse though thats when IMO it is a good idea to throw new treatments at it

Tracy C
09-16-2013, 06:35 PM
I finally received my dermaroller and started my effort to reproduce the pilot study. Dang this hurts!!! I am not applying any pressure at all. Just the weight of the roller, which can't be very much.

I did find that using plastic wrap to keep long hair from getting tangled in the roller does in fact work - and it works really well.

DesperateOne
09-16-2013, 07:07 PM
I finally received my dermaroller and started my effort to reproduce the pilot study. Dang this hurts!!! I am not applying any pressure at all. Just the weight of the roller, which can't be very much.

I did find that using plastic wrap to keep long hair from getting tangled in the roller does in fact work - and it works really well.

Yes, it hurts like hell, even though women have higher pain thresholds. Some on the other forum suggested using Japanese mint oil, they say it works wonders. I might have to order it if the 2.5mm is nothing but blinding pain.

MackJames
09-17-2013, 09:36 AM
After rolling I go over my scalp with a alcohol wipe. Cleans the blood off and evaporates quickly. I'm going to start taking pics. I'm on my fifth week today and my hair is very short. I'm not sure whether I've been rolling hard enough so I'm basically starting from scratch.

Stocione
09-17-2013, 10:41 AM
I finally received my dermaroller and started my effort to reproduce the pilot study. Dang this hurts!!! I am not applying any pressure at all. Just the weight of the roller, which can't be very much.

I did find that using plastic wrap to keep long hair from getting tangled in the roller does in fact work - and it works really well.

It's definitely not comfortable but the harder and more vigorously you roll the more adrenaline you get pumping. It hurts significantly less after a few good hard rolls.

On a side note, I missed the explanation for why you are using plastic wrap. But if you are rolling with as much vigor as those reporting results (and what the study researcher I spoke to suggested) then I would expect you to tear through the plastic wrap. I would also be concerned about how sanitary the plastic wrap is (as pieces could be deposited into your scalp), unless you are soaking it in alcohol before or something.

Anyway, just a thought.

brunobald
09-17-2013, 11:27 AM
I was thinking these dermapens may be a way of reducing pain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WczUjxn6x4

Stocione
09-17-2013, 11:29 AM
I was thinking these dermapens may be a way of reducing pain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WczUjxn6x4

If I can replicate the results using a dermarolling, my next step would be to combine a dermaroller with a dermapen. Apparently they might have separate wounding effects, with the dermapen going deeper but the roller hitting a larger surface area.

brunobald
09-17-2013, 11:39 AM
The dermapen is an in out motion stabbing while the roller is pivoting out and in of the skin. The roller inflicts more damage especially on the surface but the pen can get deeper without causing as much truma and potentially less pain. The ladies having dermapen work on their faces appear to be in way less pain than the roller in fact some say it is quite soothing?

First we need to replicate results and then start honing the technique from there but it looks promising especially for guys who just want to wound small areas.

Follica are years ahead of us on this and they are talking of much larger wounds?

hellouser
09-17-2013, 11:53 AM
Hmm... I cut my hands trying to pry open an external hard drive (enclosure's controller died). I'm now left with some small scabs. I wonder if I should have tried applying minoxidil and seeing if I'd get hair growth.

horte
09-17-2013, 02:38 PM
This might seem weird but every time I roll I sneeze a lot... Just wondering does this happen to anyone else?

hellouser
09-17-2013, 02:39 PM
This might seem weird but every time I roll I sneeze a lot... Just wondering does this happen to anyone else?

I have urges, yes.

walrus
09-17-2013, 02:41 PM
This might seem weird but every time I roll I sneeze a lot... Just wondering does this happen to anyone else?

same here

thinningTooSoon
09-17-2013, 02:50 PM
Is anyone using growth factors in combination with this trial? I am thinking of getting some...

fred970
09-17-2013, 03:37 PM
I get a runny nose and sometimes I sneeze too.

Hal0
09-17-2013, 04:03 PM
I drop some tears and i sneeze too..

PatientlyWaiting
09-17-2013, 04:36 PM
I got my dermaroller today and I tried rolling it on my head, it stung like hell. Especially in the patches affected by Alopecia Areata, they stung the most and they turned a pink color. I did it with little to no pressure and it hurt like hell, but no blood though. I'm looking in to numbing creams, any suggestions?

Chromeo
09-17-2013, 04:45 PM
I drop some tears and i sneeze too..

Better to shed a tear than shed more hair.

cp9
09-17-2013, 04:52 PM
It's weird as hell, I used to sneeze almost every time when I roll on my hairline..

PatientlyWaiting
09-17-2013, 05:37 PM
On closer look with a picture with flash, I do see bloody little dots on my scalp.

baldnotbeautiful
09-17-2013, 09:13 PM
i raped my scalp so hard tonight i could feel my heartbeat in it lol. was weird sensation. literally when my heartbeat my scalp was pulsing at the same time.

oh and...you shouldn't need a picture with flash to see bloody dots...unless you have a ton of density

pat
09-17-2013, 09:36 PM
what size dermaroller are you guys using? I feel like using the 0.5mm but I'm worried it wouldn't be enough for me. I'd probably be uncomfortable with the 1-1.5mm dermarollers

DesperateOne
09-17-2013, 09:56 PM
i raped my scalp so hard tonight i could feel my heartbeat in it lol. was weird sensation. literally when my heartbeat my scalp was pulsing at the same time.

oh and...you shouldn't need a picture with flash to see bloody dots...unless you have a ton of density

That's what I plan to do on e my 2.5mm derma arrives. 1.5mm is simply not enough, the only problem as always is the pain. Girls will have it easier since they can tolerate more pain.

clandestine
09-18-2013, 05:08 AM
what size dermaroller are you guys using? I feel like using the 0.5mm but I'm worried it wouldn't be enough for me. I'd probably be uncomfortable with the 1-1.5mm dermarollers

Honesty I started with 1.0mm for my first session last week, but am going straight to 1.5mm for this week. Just try it.

goingquick
09-18-2013, 09:46 AM
Has anyone seen results with this so far, or is this another idea to toss in the scrap heap?


Girls will have it easier since they can tolerate more pain.

That's a myth. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

Borealis
09-18-2013, 10:33 AM
I've probably been doing it one of the longest, only thing I've noticed is that a few (and I mean a few) of the vellus hairs I had previously, have turned terminal. That could have happened due to minox anyway.

Been shedding a shit load though, so many hairs come out in the shower.

chimera
09-18-2013, 10:51 AM
Up to this point, I think it's quite obvious that the study we're following is a fat load of bullshit. No, I am not saying the dermaroller does not work, that is something I still don't know. Maybe if you keep rolling for six months or one year you may see something, what I am saying is that the study is full of lies. Results are not just going to pop out of nowhere at the 12 weeks mark, we should be able to see something by now, and we're certainly not. In this forum or the others, all we have are just a couple of pics which show nothing at all (and in most cases, we don't even have before pictures). And yeah, I know that when it comes to hair, three months really mean nothing, but the thing is, the study we're following said three months.

Anyway, maybe this will help, but the results won't be like the study suggested, that's for sure. But who knows?, maybe it could help as a maintenance treatment, maybe not, we'll see.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-18-2013, 10:55 AM
chimera you wrong pal

Stocione
09-18-2013, 11:04 AM
Up to this point, I think it's quite obvious that the study we're following is a fat load of bullshit. No, I am not saying the dermaroller does not work, that is something I still don't know. Maybe if you keep rolling for six months or one year you may see something, what I am saying is that the study is full of lies. Results are not just going to pop out of nowhere at the 12 weeks mark, we should be able to see something by now, and we're certainly not. In this forum or the others, all we have are just a couple of pics which show nothing at all (and in most cases, we don't even have before pictures). And yeah, I know that when it comes to hair, three months really mean nothing, but the thing is, the study we're following said three months.

Anyway, maybe this will help, but the results won't be like the study suggested, that's for sure. But who knows?, maybe it could help as a maintenance treatment, maybe not, we'll see.

This is a deeply misinformed post. Some people just don't know how to read studies...

Conpecia
09-18-2013, 11:11 AM
i would advise reserving judgment, good or bad, on this treatment until January of next year. it's a simple treatment. do it once a week and don't think about it. if by 2014 we're not getting any results we can either make adjustments or abandon ship. until then just do it and don't dwell on it. if you happen to get results take pics and post them.

chimera
09-18-2013, 11:23 AM
This is a deeply misinformed post. Some people just don't know how to read studies...

How am I wrong?, the study showed amazing results at three months, results that we are obviously not going to get. What else is there to it?.

Anyway, I know I just can't ignore all the people saying they are seeing vellus hair everywhere, I do think this has the potential to work agains hair loss (but I don't know yet to which extent), but I am convinced that the results from the study are false.

Stocione
09-18-2013, 11:28 AM
How am I wrong?, the study showed amazing results at three months, results that we are obviously not going to get. What else is there to it?.

Now, I do think this has the potential to work agains hair loss, I just think the results from the study are false.

Results weren't noted until six weeks, and that's only on a shaved head. There are now over ten people reporting positive results across the public and private hair loss forums. Most people won't notice anything because they do not have a shaved head.

I'm not going to go into it further because I don't think you've actually read the study because if you had, you'd understand why people aren't reporting anything yet. You'd also know about the impact on the rate of hair growth observed.

Borealis
09-18-2013, 11:29 AM
I really don't mean to worry anyone, I'm simply asking out of curiosity. Are we sure that there is no risk of losing more hair as a result of dermarolling?

chimera
09-18-2013, 11:38 AM
I'm not going to go into it further because I don't think you've actually read the study because if you had, you'd understand why people aren't reporting anything yet. You'd also know about the impact on the rate of hair growth observed.

In fact, I was the first one in this forum to read the whole study. It was I the one who oppened the original thread (theres a link in the fist post of this thread to the thread I oppened before) like a week after it was originally published on *** where nobody gave a damn.

Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.

Stocione
09-18-2013, 11:57 AM
Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.

So you think their results are fake based on zero evidence? And there's a difference between reading the results section and reading a study. I sincerely doubt you really read and understood the study if you expected results that could be captured in a photograph after four or five weeks of rolling (which is where most people are). They specifically noted that new follicles were only noted at six weeks and we can assume that this was only in the best responders.

My point is this, why post negative thoughts when you legitimately don't have a leg to stand on? I'd understand if we were at the three month mark or even at the two month mark with no one reporting anything. Instead, those individuals with a shaved head and at the six week mark ARE reporting positive things. Most of the rest of us either aren't that far into treatment or don't have shaved heads.

So keep chill and wait it out. Also, I get the feeling that you expect everyone to have a +3 response to this treatment protocol. If so, you are certainly going to be disappointed as the results showed a quite significant standard deviation. Most people here will likely only see a +1 or +2 response.

Hicks
09-18-2013, 12:46 PM
In fact, I was the first one in this forum to read the whole study. It was I the one who oppened the original thread (theres a link in the fist post of this thread to the thread I oppened before) like a week after it was originally published on *** where nobody gave a damn.

Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.

Just put Stocione on your ignore list like I did. That person doesn't have anything constructive to say. Read his/her past post.

Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information.

My advice is to hammer on and lurk. I don't give 2 sh**ts about anyone on this board. I am here for one reason. If I can help (I will when I can) great if not sorry.

Stocione
09-18-2013, 12:50 PM
Just put Stocione on your ignore list like I did. That person doesn't have anything constructive to say. Read his/her past post.

Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information.

My advice is to hammer on and lurk. I don't give 2 sh**ts about anyone on this board. I am here for one reason. If I can help (I will when I can) great if not sorry.

Stop giving out misinformation. This isn't a company. It's a research study sponsored by a hospital in India.

But sure, if pointing out when people are blatantly wrong isn't constructive, go ahead and ignore me. Or in your case, I pointed out that your thoughts lacked any scientific evidence. I wasn't trying to be rude or curt but I don't want to see people fail to follow the study or see results because they listen to advice that lacks scientific evidence. Anyway, good luck to you and keep hammering away. I sincerely hope that you and everyone else here sees results!

Dan26
09-18-2013, 01:08 PM
Norwoods are so impatient....the higher nw the worse they are!

greatjob!
09-18-2013, 01:16 PM
Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information.



Can you please explain to me what company put out this study, what proprietary information they could have left out, and how they could possibly stand to make any money off of this research?

bigentries
09-18-2013, 01:34 PM
I don't think there is some evil conspiracy here

If the study turns out to be wrong (and all is pointing towards it) I would just blame bias. They already said they offer the treatment at their clinic, but I don't think they have any plans to commercialize it further

Edit: And where are the pictures? People are claiming others are seeing results, but I've only seen one guy posting pics. Where is the photographic evidence? People were supposed to take the experimentation seriously this time

hellouser
09-18-2013, 01:37 PM
Can you please explain to me what company put out this study, what proprietary information they could have left out, and how they could possibly stand to make any money off of this research?

A lot of you guys need to read thoroughly:


Stop giving out misinformation. This isn't a company. It's a research study sponsored by a hospital in India.

Stocione
09-18-2013, 02:01 PM
I don't think there is some evil conspiracy here

If the study turns out to be wrong (and all is pointing towards it) I would just blame bias. They already said they offer the treatment at their clinic, but I don't think they have any plans to commercialize it further

Edit: And where are the pictures? People are claiming others are seeing results, but I've only seen one guy posting pics. Where is the photographic evidence? People were supposed to take the experimentation seriously this time

This isn't the only forum on the web and on this topic, it's the furthest behind - despite the many, many posts. I'm not going to link to other hair loss forums here so just take a look for yourself.

clandestine
09-18-2013, 02:27 PM
Stoicone;

Thanks for being the voice of reason in this thread lately.

bigentries
09-18-2013, 02:50 PM
This isn't the only forum on the web and on this topic, it's the furthest behind - despite the many, many posts. I'm not going to link to other hair loss forums here so just take a look for yourself.

I've been at the other big 3 forums that start with "hair" and don't see any progress pics in their dermarolling threads, *** is basically this same topic, even the same usernames

Are the private forums seeing anything worth to report?

hellouser
09-18-2013, 02:52 PM
Are the private forums seeing anything worth to report?

Oddly enough, theres very little movement with dermarolling in the private forums.

greatjob!
09-18-2013, 03:04 PM
A lot of you guys need to read thoroughly:

Is that directed at me? Because I wasn't responding to his comment, I agreed with it. I was responding to this comment:


Yes it is obvious that parts of the study would be missing, No company would give out proprietary information.

That's why I quoted it.

Pentarou
09-18-2013, 06:35 PM
My point is this, why post negative thoughts when you legitimately don't have a leg to stand on? I'd understand if we were at the three month mark or even at the two month mark with no one reporting anything. Instead, those individuals with a shaved head and at the six week mark ARE reporting positive things. Most of the rest of us either aren't that far into treatment or don't have shaved heads.
Most of scepticism is because, essentially, there have been many experimental trials carried out by forum users over the years with no success. Trials that may have been theoretically 'correct' but turned out to not work in practice, for whichever number of countless possible reasons. Also, in the eyes of many, this trial has a 'too good to be true' element about it, as in the amount of regrowth from a common off-the-shelf treatment combined with a cheap off-the-shelf tool. It's not a surprise that many here are quite wary.


So keep chill and wait it out. Also, I get the feeling that you expect everyone to have a +3 response to this treatment protocol. If so, you are certainly going to be disappointed as the results showed a quite significant standard deviation. Most people here will likely only see a +1 or +2 response.
I wonder if users of 5-ARIs will be most likely to be in the better response group, thinking aloud for a second.

Koga
09-18-2013, 06:56 PM
Stay patient guys! I'm at 8 weeks and I definitely see results. But the only reason I can see it is because I shave my head down with a zero guard and have a distinct receding hairline, and even then it's not really obvious on camera. I had velous hairs at the end of week one and now some terminal hairs are definitely growing in. I'm sure there are others getting results too. I'll post pics when it's more obvious. Definitely don't expect pics with a full head of hair though.

DesperateOne
09-18-2013, 08:55 PM
Stay patient guys! I'm at 8 weeks and I definitely see results. But the only reason I can see it is because I shave my head down with a zero guard and have a distinct receding hairline, and even then it's not really obvious on camera. I had velous hairs at the end of week one and now some terminal hairs are definitely growing in. I'm sure there are others getting results too. I'll post pics when it's more obvious. Definitely don't expect pics with a full head of hair though.

Are you also adding some growth factors of any kind?

clandestine
09-18-2013, 09:39 PM
I've quit smoking for this; I'm two weeks out. So as not to affect collagen levels and such.

Not easy, but damn if hair loss isn't motivation to quit, I don't know what is.
Second roller session tomorrow, using the 1.5mm.

Thinning87
09-18-2013, 09:49 PM
I was reading other forums and people express doubts based on the angle th dermaroller makes contact with the skin.

Apparently oblique vs perpendicular makes a big difference, the latter being better, and they say the dermaroller doesn't guarantee that 90 degree angle

Koga
09-18-2013, 10:32 PM
I was reading other forums and people express doubts based on the angle th dermaroller makes contact with the skin.

Apparently oblique vs perpendicular makes a big difference, the latter being better, and they say the dermaroller doesn't guarantee that 90 degree angle


What is their basis for this?
But if you think about it, the needles from a derma roller might enter obliquely, but as the roller continues, it inevitably has to hit a 90 angle before exiting doesn't it?

Thinning87
09-18-2013, 11:11 PM
What is their basis for this?
But if you think about it, the needles from a derma roller might enter obliquely, but as the roller continues, it inevitably has to hit a 90 angle before exiting doesn't it?

I wouldn't be so sure the angle is always 90 degrees. It depends on the shape of the scalp and the precision of the dermaroller. I'll read some more and report here what I find

PatientlyWaiting
09-19-2013, 12:16 AM
In fact, I was the first one in this forum to read the whole study. It was I the one who oppened the original thread (theres a link in the fist post of this thread to the thread I oppened before) like a week after it was originally published on *** where nobody gave a damn.

Fine then. I do think this work, I just think that the study is completely fake (well, at least their results are bollocks). But it's OK. I will shut my mouth for a couple of weeks more. We'll see at the three months mark what happen.

What do you think they are selling? They mention "minoxidil" and micro-needling. I haven't read the study in a while but from what I remember, they didn't mention any brands. So what exactly are they trying to sell if this is fake?

You have to be more specific if you are going to accuse the study of being fake. Why are they faking it? What do they gain from this?

Edit: Okay I just read the study again. There's a "Microneedling group" and a "Minoxidil group". There is no mention of any brand at all.

greatjob!
09-19-2013, 12:24 AM
I was reading other forums and people express doubts based on the angle th dermaroller makes contact with the skin.

Apparently oblique vs perpendicular makes a big difference, the latter being better, and they say the dermaroller doesn't guarantee that 90 degree angle

If you are concerned about that you could always just use a derma stamp

bigentries
09-19-2013, 07:52 AM
What do you think they are selling? They mention "minoxidil" and micro-needling. I haven't read the study in a while but from what I remember, they didn't mention any brands. So what exactly are they trying to sell if this is fake?

You have to be more specific if you are going to accuse the study of being fake. Why are they faking it? What do they gain from this?

Edit: Okay I just read the study again. There's a "Microneedling group" and a "Minoxidil group". There is no mention of any brand at all.

Someone that contacted them said they told him they offer the procedure at their clinic, that's a big conflict of interest

Stocione
09-19-2013, 07:56 AM
Someone that contacted them said they told him they offer the procedure at their clinic, that's a big conflict of interest

It's a conflict of interest to offer a procedure that they know works? Actually I just think that's how science and treatments work... you prove the concept and then you offer it as a service.

bigentries
09-19-2013, 08:14 AM
It's a conflict of interest to offer a procedure that they know works? Actually I just think that's how science and treatments work... you prove the concept and then you offer it as a service.

And where are the other studies claiming that dermarolling alongside minox works? As far as I know this is the first one

We haven't even found out here if it works or not

Companies paying for biased studies just to sell something is rampant in the supplement industry, I don't see how this could be any different

Stocione
09-19-2013, 08:17 AM
Because this is published in a reputable journal. The supplement studies are almost never accepted for publication. What's more, we've posted ad nauseum the research that supports the theory behind wounding + minoxidil.

Additionally, not all the researchers offer this service. The one I spoke to, for example, doesn't have his own practice and is a research doc for the hospital. Only the lead researcher does, to my knowledge.

bigentries
09-19-2013, 08:26 AM
Because this is published in a reputable journal. The supplement studies are almost never accepted for publication.

So what? As far as I know it wasn't peer reviewed. And publication is not enough, the FDA authorizes laser therapy for hair loss and we know it just doesn't work



What's more, we've posted ad nauseum the research that supports the theory behind wounding + minoxidil.

The theory behind wounding is strong, but again, we are not talking about the same stuff.
People have been using dermarolling with minox for years and until someone decided that 1.5mm was the right size then it suddenly started to be touted as the cure



Additionally, not all the researchers offer this service. The one I spoke to, for example, doesn't have his own practice and is a research doc for the hospital. Only the lead researcher does, to my knowledge.
Still bias exists

Stocione
09-19-2013, 08:32 AM
So what? As far as I know it wasn't peer reviewed. And publication is not enough, the FDA authorizes laser therapy for hair loss and we know it just doesn't work


The theory behind wounding is strong, but again, we are not talking about the same stuff.
People have been using dermarolling with minox for years and until someone decided that 1.5mm was the right size then it suddenly started to be touted as the cure


Still bias exists

.... the journal of trichology is the OFFICIAL PEER REVIEWED journal for hair research in India.

1.5mm isn't some random size. It relates to the depth necessary for disrupting the epidermis.

You are right, every study related to hair loss (and most medical fields) is biased. People run studies because they think it will work. That creates an inherent bias.

Hair lasers are not approved by the FDA for the treatment of hair loss and no studies are published supporting their use in peer reviewed journals (that I've seen). There are some bullshit publications, but they aren't in real journals. Hair lasers were approved as safe for use, not as efficacious for the treatment of alopecia. Devices have a separate approval process from drugs.

MackJames
09-19-2013, 08:38 AM
I'm on week 5. I'm going to take a picture tonight. The problem for me is that I shaved my hair down to the scalp a week ago because of my psoriasis. I also had been rolling only hard enough to cause redness with minimal blood.

This week I rolled considerable harder. I'm going to let my hair grow out a little and keep it at the same length for the full 12 weeks.

Should I continue to consider this week 5 or week 1?

Stocione
09-19-2013, 08:40 AM
I'm on week 5. I'm going to take a picture tonight. The problem for me is that I shaved my hair down to the scalp a week ago because of my psoriasis. I also had been rolling only hard enough to cause redness with minimal blood.

This week I rolled considerable harder. I'm going to let my hair grow out a little and keep it at the same length for the full 12 weeks.

Should I continue to consider this week 5 or week 1?

Don't consider it week 1 or week 5. Just keep rolling every week for the next five months to judge accurately. None of us know enough about how hard you need to roll to actually see results.

DesperateOne
09-19-2013, 09:08 AM
Don't consider it week 1 or week 5. Just keep rolling every week for the next five months to judge accurately. None of us know enough about how hard you need to roll to actually see results.

That's true, after finding that the initial study was not as accurate and the fact that we found follicla's patents, none of only the entire picture. So just roll to a couple of months and then report you findings.

clandestine
09-19-2013, 09:21 AM
Can I wash my scalp with something afterwards to get the blood off?

Is the saline solution only to be used before, or can I use this? What about lukewarm water?

LevonHelms
09-19-2013, 09:43 AM
I've quit smoking for this; I'm two weeks out. So as not to affect collagen levels and such.

Not easy, but damn if hair loss isn't motivation to quit, I don't know what is.
Second roller session tomorrow, using the 1.5mm.

Congrats man, that's no small feat. I've quit too, using an e-cig. Still count it as a victory though.:D

MackJames
09-19-2013, 10:01 AM
Can I wash my scalp with something afterwards to get the blood off?

Is the saline solution only to be used before, or can I use this? What about lukewarm water?

I have a buzz cur and I use alcohol pads to wipe the blood away.

Stocione
09-19-2013, 10:21 AM
That's true, after finding that the initial study was not as accurate and the fact that we found follicla's patents, none of only the entire picture. So just roll to a couple of months and then report you findings.

Please stop saying that the study was not accurate. It feeds the trolls here. I've explained to you multiple times that it was. I should have never shared my discussions with the researcher... but to reiterate, the materials and methods section of the study did not include many key details for replicating the study - that's why they included the email addresses for subscribers. If you were interested in replicating the study, you would be expected to contact the researchers and ask for their methodology more in depth like what I did.

Their materials and methods section was simply to provide a snapshot of what they did. Not provide a blueprint for others to follow. This isn't some guide you buy online to curing hair loss. It's a paper published in a peer reviewed journal that likely went through many edits and had a word limit.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
09-19-2013, 11:54 AM
one more case on *** is positive about wounding response :):):):)

chimera
09-19-2013, 12:35 PM
Please stop saying that the study was not accurate. It feeds the trolls here.

Trolls?, I don't think there's any troll in here. Yeah, some may question this treatment. But they all do it out of curiosity, perhaps over-scepticism, or maybe even just plain and honest stupidity. But I'm sure nobody does it with malice.

Stocione
09-19-2013, 12:41 PM
Trolls?, I don't think there's any troll in here. Yeah, some may question this treatment. But they all do it out of curiosity, perhaps over-scepticism, or maybe even just plain and honest stupidity. But I'm sure nobody does it with malice.

Fair point. Not trolls then, because I do agree no one is doing it with malice.

On a side note, I recommend people check out PrincessRambo's posts on *** where he/she outlines some important components of the study that many seem to be misunderstanding (myself included, in the case of the macro photos). It helps to clear up some of the questions people have raised.

clandestine
09-19-2013, 12:50 PM
Trolls?, I don't think there's any troll in here. Yeah, some may question this treatment. But they all do it out of curiosity, perhaps over-scepticism, or maybe even just plain and honest stupidity. But I'm sure nobody does it with malice.

It has less to do with trolls, and more to do with the spread of misinformation.

The user DesperateOne, as a prime example.

clandestine
09-19-2013, 12:52 PM
Can I wash my scalp with something afterwards to get the blood off?

Is the saline solution only to be used before, or can I use this? What about lukewarm water?

So can I use saline after rolling to clean blood, or no?

bigentries
09-19-2013, 12:53 PM
one more case on *** is positive about wounding response :):):):)

Who? super?

So you believe a guy who's first post is to claim to have results without any evidence?

You guys are going crazy there, with all the semen talk

Stocione
09-19-2013, 12:57 PM
Who? super?

So you believe a guy who's first post is to claim to have results without any evidence?

You guys are going crazy there, with all the semen talk


I have to agree, Super has provided very little reason to buy his story and we don't even know what the actual procedure done was... given that he's not aware of needle length and didn't give too many details. Hard to see what he has to gain from coming and making up a story, but also not enough to give us much to go on.

Do the slightest bit of research and you'll find that semen is a far superior GF/PG ****tail to the one Kane is producing. Now I'm not endorsing it and there are obviously zero studies on the hair growth effects of semen, but to call it 'crazy' is a bit quick.

bigentries
09-19-2013, 01:06 PM
I have to agree, Super has provided very little reason to buy his story and we don't even know what the actual procedure done was... given that he's not aware of needle length and didn't give too many details. Hard to see what he has to gain from coming and making up a story, but also not enough to give us much to go on.

What to gain? trolling, don't tell me you've never seen people claiming miraculous results and never provide any evidence



Do the slightest bit of research and you'll find that semen is a far superior GF/PG ****tail to the one Kane is producing. Now I'm not endorsing it and there are obviously zero studies on the hair growth effects of semen, but to call it 'crazy' is a bit quick.

The semen stuff started as a PGE2 joke thread at hlh, it was never intended to be serious. The original poster just pointed out a true fact (PGE2 content in semen) but it was also intended to be humorous as semen, like dog crap, is always used to exemplify how low bald men can go if there is the slight hope of regrowth

But people took it seriously, and now they are starting to experiment with semen on their freaking heads

Stocione
09-19-2013, 01:13 PM
I haven't, although I've certainly seen fake accounts used for promoting products that are being sold on the internet. I'm not going to pass judgement one way or another on Super yet, but I wouldn't count his story for much.

And whether or not the semen stuff started as a joke is irrelevant to its prospects as a hair growth stimulant. As PrincessRambo has pointed out, semen also contains a number of GFs implicated in hair growth and the PG that bim induces. It's also a bodily fluid and a sanitary one at that. I use saliva to get crumbs off my face. I guess I just don't see the difference. I don't really plant to try it myself though, but it's also not crazy in the least bit.

walrus
09-19-2013, 01:35 PM
Super also mentioned being on finasteride, so he can't say conclusively it is down to dermarolling.

baldnotbeautiful
09-19-2013, 02:07 PM
keep seeing people asking what to use to cleanse with. if you guys are looking to clean your head with something before/after derma rolling, Hibiclens is probably the ideal thing to use, imo. If you've ever had surgery, a lot of doctors will ask you to wash yourself with this before surgery, as it's cleansing effect is lasting. CVS sells this for US people

Product description :
A surgical scrub, patient pre-op skin preparation, healthcare personnel hand wash, and a skin wound and general skin cleaner. A trusted leader in antimicrobial cleaners, bonds with the skin to create a protective, germ-killing field. In addition to the fast acting antimicrobial effect, HIBICLENS' non-drying, low skin irritation potential promotes compliance with the frequent hand washing associated with today's clinical protocols. Clear liquid, pink color, and fragranced.

whatsgoingon
09-20-2013, 04:09 AM
Been doing this for a couple weeks on my temples I do it once till my skin gets red per application. I have noticed that it absorbs a lot quicker. I used to get some in my eyes, like really often or it would just drain down the side of my face. But now it pretty much just srays where applied. Which is a huge plus.,

I really don't feel any pain for the amount of applications I do,it might be overkill. But I did read that the holes can heal within 3 hours so I figure this is the only way. At first I needed to do it a lot to get the red tone of skin, but now I've been able to keep it to a few strokes to get it red. I guess possibly my skin is really thick and durable heh

ANYWAYS, my question is is hydroproxide good enough to clean it with? Considering that these will dull within a few months the rust factor shouldn't be an issue. Or am I completely off base?

LevonHelms
09-20-2013, 09:16 AM
Been doing this for a couple weeks on my temples I do it once till my skin gets red per application. I have noticed that it absorbs a lot quicker. I used to get some in my eyes, like really often or it would just drain down the side of my face. But now it pretty much just srays where applied. Which is a huge plus.,

I really don't feel any pain for the amount of applications I do,it might be overkill. But I did read that the holes can heal within 3 hours so I figure this is the only way. At first I needed to do it a lot to get the red tone of skin, but now I've been able to keep it to a few strokes to get it red. I guess possibly my skin is really thick and durable heh

ANYWAYS, my question is is hydroproxide good enough to clean it with? Considering that these will dull within a few months the rust factor shouldn't be an issue. Or am I completely off base?

You do know we're doing this for the wounding not absorption right? Read the study on the first page.

Hydrogen peroxide would probably be fine. Lot of people are using alcohol, the best option seems to be denture cleaning tablets.

LevonHelms
09-20-2013, 09:20 AM
I have to agree, Super has provided very little reason to buy his story and we don't even know what the actual procedure done was... given that he's not aware of needle length and didn't give too many details. Hard to see what he has to gain from coming and making up a story, but also not enough to give us much to go on.

Do the slightest bit of research and you'll find that semen is a far superior GF/PG ****tail to the one Kane is producing. Now I'm not endorsing it and there are obviously zero studies on the hair growth effects of semen, but to call it 'crazy' is a bit quick.

Did you guys see the Super dude posted pics? Not great quality, but they improve his credibility somewhat. He does have more hair.