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Hicks
08-13-2013, 06:15 AM
I wish we had an ignore button

Go to their profile and you can add them to your ignore list. I have 2 on mine. Not sure how it works. So far so good :D

I rolled Sunday. Still a little tender this morning.

Artista
08-13-2013, 06:51 AM
I got a new job and that along with band practice is keeping me from making the show. Joe's negativity was really getting to me anyways. I may still participate from time to time.

I tend to stay out of the men's section of this forum because stupid is contagious. Some of these guys need more help than anyone gave give them.

I understand Tracy, Congrats on your new job and keep on playing!
(by the way..Ive been playing bass and guitar since I was a kid-been in a few very good bands..fun times)

HARIRI
08-13-2013, 06:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTdVOvnBB4&feature=youtu.be

Super thanks John2399 :D:D:D

The Dermaroller shown in the video is quite scary. Nanogen Titanium scalp roller looks more friendly lol.

http://www.nanogenaustralia.com/product.php?productid=16165

chimera
08-13-2013, 07:08 AM
The Dermaroller shown in the video is quite scary. Nanogen Titanium scalp roller looks more friendly lol.


Nope, it has to be 1.5 mm. 0.5 has been used in the past without results. Makes sense, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm, and we want tu hurt them

Tracy C
08-13-2013, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the advice Tracy but may I know why we should not use Minoxidil after the dermaroller weekly session? :confused:

Read the warning on your bottle of Minoxidil.




2nd question for how many minutes we should use the dermaroller if used once a week? some said 10 minutes, whats your thought about that?

I would expect that would depend on the size of your affected area. Mine is not very big so I doubt it would take me 10 minutes to do it.

Tracy C
08-13-2013, 09:07 AM
I don't appreciate being called a fraud or or a fake...

You are not required to appreciate it. But you are required to tolerate it if you are going to post here. If you put up with 10% of the BS some of these guys give me, you would be crying all the way home to your mommy.




I'm confused Tracy. Are you suggesting that this study is fabricated?

I never once said the study was fabricated. I said it was not a good study. If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I do feel this is an interesting idea and plan to try it myself. I just give any weight to posters who claim to have seen results, especially so soon.




I wish the moderators would do their job.

They are...

Think about that for a minute or two.




Tracy, this thread was doing just fine before you started commenting.

I have done no harm to this thread at all in any way shape or form. Get off your soap box. You don't belong there.

Tracy C
08-13-2013, 09:11 AM
I understand Tracy, Congrats on your new job and keep on playing!
(by the way..Ive been playing bass and guitar since I was a kid-been in a few very good bands..fun times)

Getting my hair back has given me the confidence to start playing in front of an audience again. It's a very liberating feeling. Getting back to work after 18 months of unemployment is great too. I don't make as much money in my new job as I did in my last job - but I am payed well and I like the job. I just miss working in the research environment. I did that for so long. It's going to take time to acclimate to working in the real world. LOL

the_dude78
08-13-2013, 09:49 AM
I have done no harm to this thread at all in any way shape or form. Get off your soap box. You don't belong there.

I do belong here...I'm a balding man. This a forum for balding men.

But yes, I should've sent you a PM instead . (Is that even possible here?)

Let's keep this thread on track from now on!

Pentarou
08-13-2013, 10:00 AM
Cause you guys love to reject reality and anybody who threatens your fantacy with even the smallest dose of reality.

If you don't like what I write. Don't read it. Just move along and continue on with your fantasy.

If you mean the experimentation going on, can you blame us guys? The pipeline is dry until the end of the decade, with only Cosmo's CB to look forward to between now and then (unless GSK get Avodart phase III'd as a hair loss treatment). Even us guys who can use finasteride sans problemo realise it has only very limited omph to regrow hair. These guys experimenting aren't killing or bankrupting themselves, and can at least use their experiences to rule out dead ends.

HARIRI
08-13-2013, 01:07 PM
Nope, it has to be 1.5 mm. 0.5 has been used in the past without results. Makes sense, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm, and we want tu hurt them

Damn, so do you mean that I have to return it? I hope they accept refund otherwise Im f***d up. Nanogen 0.5mm titanium scalp roller is quite expensive :(

Guys any thoughts about length of the needle? Should it really be 1.5mm to benefit from it? :confused:

rdawg
08-13-2013, 01:09 PM
If you mean the experimentation going on, can you blame us guys? The pipeline is dry until the end of the decade, with only Cosmo's CB to look forward to between now and then (unless GSK get Avodart phase III'd as a hair loss treatment). Even us guys who can use finasteride sans problemo realise it has only very limited omph to regrow hair. These guys experimenting aren't killing or bankrupting themselves, and can at least use their experiences to rule out dead ends.

I'd say BIM is also guarenteed to come out(it's been proven to cause some growth, they just want to get more) within the next couple years. They already or are about to start phase IIb(which was pretty quick).

Histogen has a strong chance as well, but we'll see about that. They need to get to IIb already!

Dan26
08-13-2013, 01:16 PM
Damn, so do you mean that I have to return it? I hope they accept refund otherwise Im f***d up. Nanogen 0.5mm titanium scalp roller is quite expensive :(

Guys any thoughts about length of the needle? Should it really be 1.5mm to benefit from it? :confused:

You need 1.5mm for wounding, as the study shows. You can use 0.5mm for skin so maybe keep it anyways.

HARIRI
08-13-2013, 01:41 PM
You need 1.5mm for wounding, as the study shows. You can use 0.5mm for skin so maybe keep it anyways.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-1-5mm-/140882908020?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&hash=item20cd469374

There is a table under the Item description about which mm is suitable for your purpose. I think its the recommended one in the video posted by john2399.

It says for HairRegeneration,Regrowth, we have to use 0.25 or 0.3 or 0.5 and maximum 0.75!!! Any comment about that? :confused:

hellouser
08-13-2013, 01:50 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-1-5mm-/140882908020?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&hash=item20cd469374

There is a table under the Item description about which mm is suitable for your purpose. I think its the recommended one in the video posted by john2399.

It says for HairRegeneration,Regrowth, we have to use 0.25 or 0.3 or 0.5 and maximum 0.75!!! Any comment about that? :confused:

I wouldnt trust any claims from eBay over BTT members... except for one obvious member.

HARIRI
08-13-2013, 02:06 PM
I wouldnt trust any claims from eBay over BTT members... except for one obvious member.

hellouser, do you also believe that my dermaroller should be 1.5mm and NOT less in order to get positive results?

hellouser
08-13-2013, 02:19 PM
hellouser, do you also believe that my dermaroller should be 1.5mm and NOT less in order to get positive results?

I think it largely depends how deep your follicles are and skin thickness will play a major part in that. Everyone is different, my skin may be thicker than yours also I know that it is quite thin in my temples. However, even when I roll with the 1.5mm, I don't get anywhere near the kind of bleeding that some patients got in the videos posted here (like that woman running the dermaroller all over the guys face and neck). I only get small dots of blood here and there.

HARIRI
08-13-2013, 02:30 PM
I think I will order another dermaroller around 1.5mm

I have 2 options:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-derma-needle-roller-medical-grade-uk-seller-size-1-50-mm-/281083240372?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&var=&hash=item4171dddfb4

OR

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-1-5mm-/140882908020?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Skincare_PP&hash=item20cd469374

Which one do you recommend? Any thoughts guys? I have to make a decision as soon as possible.

walrus
08-13-2013, 02:34 PM
Does the study say WHY they choose 1.5mm? If not, then perhaps the effect of different needle size was not tested. Much of this is still unknown. 0.5mm might work just as well, but we can't say for sure. If the paper is to be believed, all we do know is that they got results using 1.5mm. So until we have evidence on the contrary (from a properly designed study), the same needle size would be advisable.

chimera
08-13-2013, 02:45 PM
Does the study say WHY they choose 1.5mm? If not, then perhaps the effect of different needle size was not tested. Much of this is still unknown. 0.5mm might work just as well, but we can't say for sure. If the paper is to be believed, all we do know is that they got results using 1.5mm. So until we have evidence on the contrary (from a properly designed study), the same needle size would be advisable.

I suppose they choose 1.5 because they didn't care about improving absorption, they were trying to another thing, which is the release of growth factors. They had to damage the follicle.

And, in most people, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm deep. You won't be able to damage your follicles at 1.0, much less at 0.5

GreyGhost1864
08-13-2013, 02:46 PM
I hope everyone is doing well. I figured a little update.....so I would say even last month I could gently rub in the baldest areas of my crown and feel no hair just skin. Today doing the same thing I feel something there. I sure it is still blond but I think this is a good sign. I am scared to take a new pic but will do so in 3 more weeks. I took my baseline pics a few weeks back.

BTW guys I know how all of you feel. Been going thru this for 21 years. I just hope if this doesn't work that something good is around the corner. I have been taking care of my skin for a very long time and I do not look 40. With a hat on I can pass for 30. I just hope by the time I am 45 I can feel the wind in my hair again. Take care of your skin and its true the gym really helps balance the mind and stress factors we all have. Your day will come.....

Ghost

chimera
08-13-2013, 02:49 PM
hellouser, do you also believe that my dermaroller should be 1.5mm and NOT less in order to get positive results?

Remember that much of this "hair growth through growth factors" is kind of new (but not completely new). Dermaroller has been used for ages, but it has not been used to damage the follicles, just to improve absorption. You can improve absorption with a 0.5 or a 1.0 mm dermaroller, and that's why you will find that is the right size from every guy who sells dermarollers, but we are after another thing: damage, that is why you need a longer one.

walrus
08-13-2013, 03:01 PM
I suppose they choose 1.5 because they didn't care about improving absorption, they were trying to another thing, which is the release of growth factors. They had to damage the follicle.

And, in most people, follicles are 1.5 to 2.0 mm deep. You won't be able to damage your follicles at 1.0, much less at 0.5

The rationale makes sense, but it still remains to be tested properly.

bigentries
08-13-2013, 03:19 PM
Does the study say WHY they choose 1.5mm? If not, then perhaps the effect of different needle size was not tested. Much of this is still unknown. 0.5mm might work just as well, but we can't say for sure. If the paper is to be believed, all we do know is that they got results using 1.5mm. So until we have evidence on the contrary (from a properly designed study), the same needle size would be advisable.

The study clearly says at the end that there are still questions about needle size, periodicity, mechanisms, etc.

I don't understand why people are even speculating about better approaches

If the study is legit, the results should be reproducible, if they aren't, most of the speculation is probably going to lead nowhere.
First we need enough experiences with the study as it is, then we can play armchair scientists, but we need at least 12 weeks to be sure

I'm doing my part, reproducing the study the best I can, if I see something, I'll post pics

fred970
08-13-2013, 03:32 PM
I'll wait to see if other members get results from this. I hope it doesn't end up like Cetirizine.

See you in November!

Space
08-13-2013, 03:55 PM
Is there any point trying dermaroller on its own without Minox or anything else?

hellouser
08-13-2013, 03:56 PM
Is there any point trying dermaroller on its own without Minox or anything else?

Yes, there could be. I posted an article from the 1980s about a man being a scalp burn victim. Once his wounds healed, he regrew all of his hair in the burned area.

walrus
08-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Is there any point trying dermaroller on its own without Minox or anything else?

This is what I am currently trying myself.

Gjm127
08-13-2013, 04:14 PM
This is what I am currently trying myself.

The thing is, I've never been on ANY hair medication and I'm really afraid of what could happen if I start using minoxidil for the first time in my life and use the dermaroller too (eg. massive shed).

Were the patients in the clinical trials new to minoxidil too? Or was the study done just by adding the dermaroller to a regimen that already included applying minoxidil on the scalp many year prior to the dermaroller use?

I fear the shed. That's all that's stopping me from using minox. I guess I'll have to get over it some time, I just don't know how. :(

Space
08-13-2013, 04:17 PM
The thing is, I've never been on ANY hair medication and I'm really afraid of what could happen if I start using minoxidil for the first time in my life and use the dermaroller too (eg. massive shed).

Were the patients in the clinical trials new to minoxidil too? Or was the study done just by adding the dermaroller to a regimen that already included applying minoxidil on the scalp many year prior to the dermaroller use?

I fear the shed. That's all that's stopping me from using minox. I guess I'll have to get over it some time, I just don't know how. :(
This is not one of those things where you need to get over your fear and all will be well.

Your fear may well be merited. As for me I stay away from minoxidil because i fear both the shed and the wrinkles in the face some people have experienced.

hellouser
08-13-2013, 04:18 PM
This is not one of those things where you need to get over your fear and all will be well.

Your fear may well be merited. As for me I stay away from minoxidil because i fear both the shed and the wrinkles in the face some people have experienced.

The shed always comes back either to its same previous density or better. It just may take a while for it to happen.

LevonHelms
08-13-2013, 04:43 PM
Apparently Dr. Nigam has spoken with one of the researchers involved in the study, and plans to meet with her. I'd like to be a fly on that wall.


Excerpt from Dr. Nigam's reply to critics;

"4)You criticize me for having allowed Boldy to help me..I find no harm in the same..I speak to top researchers like Gerd, Jahoda,Stenn,Michael,Rajesh and many others...Boldy saved my time by finding the relevant published work which i needed....I have also spoke to Dr Thurat who did dermaroller study with minox..she and I will met shortly as she is from Mumbai."

walrus
08-13-2013, 04:52 PM
The thing is, I've never been on ANY hair medication and I'm really afraid of what could happen if I start using minoxidil for the first time in my life and use the dermaroller too (eg. massive shed).


First I am trying only dermarolling once per week on my temples without minoxidil.

Pentarou
08-13-2013, 06:16 PM
Question before I pull the trigger on buying a derma roller: is it mandatory to buzz or shave your hair down to use a roller successfully?

walrus
08-13-2013, 06:19 PM
Nope, if you roll once each direction (instead of backwards and forwards), hair won't get tangled.

Tracy C
08-13-2013, 07:59 PM
If the study is legit, the results should be reproducible, if they aren't, most of the speculation is probably going to lead nowhere.

Exactly.




First we need enough experiences with the study as it is, then we can play armchair scientists, but we need at least 12 weeks to be sure.

To truly reproduce the pilot study everything needs to be exactly the same and it needs to be twelve weeks. To truly determine if it is better than using Minoxidil alone would take twelve months.

Tracy C
08-13-2013, 08:00 PM
I do belong here...I'm a balding man. This a forum for balding men.

The Bald Truth is for both men and women who suffer with hereditary hair loss.

I said get off that soap box. You do not belong on it.




If you mean the experimentation going on...

No. You don't get it.




Guys any thoughts about length of the needle? Should it really be 1.5mm to benefit from it? :confused:

If you hope to achieve similar results reported in the pilot study, you need to follow the methodology as close to exact as possible.




I wouldnt trust any claims from eBay over BTT members... except for one obvious member.

Oh come on. Pull your head out of your butt fool. If you ever do you will find that I have been right a whole lot more than you will ever agree to admit.

luca10
08-14-2013, 03:03 AM
Continues growth PrettyFly83?

PrettyFly83
08-14-2013, 04:49 AM
Continues growth PrettyFly83?

I'll post pics at the end of the month as this will be the three month mark as per the study. Only been two weeks since my last pics

brunobald
08-14-2013, 04:57 AM
It would be nice to have all the pics in one place, so they could be collated into one .pdf file that anyone can download.

We could set up a free cloud storage account or use something like photobucket. Them each participant would upload the pics with stirct file naming of the photos. Something like...


Brunobald_Base_line.jpg
Brunobald_Wk3.jpg
Brunobald_Wk6.jpg
Brunobald_Wk9.jpg


and so on

This means someone can opt to do the job of creating a document with all the results and it would be easy to find and arrange in the correct order, without having to go through this whole thread and download each one.

PrettyFly83
08-14-2013, 05:08 AM
It would be nice to have all the pics in one place, so they could be collated into one .pdf file that anyone can download.

We could set up a free cloud storage account or use something like photobucket. Them each participant would upload the pics with stirct file naming of the photos. Something like...


Brunobald_Base_line.jpg
Brunobald_Wk3.jpg
Brunobald_Wk6.jpg
Brunobald_Wk9.jpg


and so on

This means someone can opt to do the job of creating a document with all the results and it would be easy to find and arrange in the correct order, without having to go through this whole thread and download each one.

This is a good idea Bruno - you could include a paragraph stating each persons regime that way compare any differences in results with the treatment method. As owner of the thread, Hellouser you interested in this?

Hicks
08-14-2013, 05:25 AM
It would be nice to have all the pics in one place, so they could be collated into one .pdf file that anyone can download.

We could set up a free cloud storage account or use something like photobucket. Them each participant would upload the pics with stirct file naming of the photos. Something like...


Brunobald_Base_line.jpg
Brunobald_Wk3.jpg
Brunobald_Wk6.jpg
Brunobald_Wk9.jpg


and so on

This means someone can opt to do the job of creating a document with all the results and it would be easy to find and arrange in the correct order, without having to go through this whole thread and download each one.

+1 for this, I don't have time to filter through these threads then hit 2 pages of off topic. I'll continue to document on my own but if something interesting pops up I'll post.

Maybe even create a Thread of week 3 dermarolling results, then another NEW thread of week 6 results. would be even nicer if someone can post the result and everyone else doesn't start debating the results.

Conpecia
08-14-2013, 08:45 AM
+1 for this, I don't have time to filter through these threads then hit 2 pages of off topic. I'll continue to document on my own but if something interesting pops up I'll post.

Maybe even create a Thread of week 3 dermarolling results, then another NEW thread of week 6 results. would be even nicer if someone can post the result and everyone else doesn't start debating the results.

I agree with this.

We can chat here, but let's create a Week 3 Dermarolling Results thread with just posts, then a Week 6, Week 9, etc. Great idea.

sosa56
08-14-2013, 09:54 AM
The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.

Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?

Hellouser are you using betadine and what are your views on it's necessity for the effectiveness of the procedure (i.e. if one doesnt use it then one will get micro infections in the follicles thereby causing 'bad' inflammation and negating the effects of the dermarolling as the poster above seems to suggest - surely you'd be able to tell if you had a scalp infection, isnt the betadine just applied to prevent an infection from the dermarolling?)?

hellouser
08-14-2013, 10:00 AM
Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?

Hellouser are you using betadine and what are your views on it's necessity for the effectiveness of the procedure (i.e. if one doesnt use it then one will get micro infections in the follicles thereby causing 'bad' inflammation and negating the effects of the dermarolling as the poster above seems to suggest - surely you'd be able to tell if you had a scalp infection, isnt the betadine just applied to prevent an infection from the dermarolling?)?

I can say with certainty that my scalp is pretty itchy lately, and had a burning sensation for the next 24 hours after my last dermarolling solution. I don't use anything after dermarolling, i leave the skin as is and go to bed. I do use isopropanol to clean my dermaroller.

As a side note, I've been shedding a LOT in the last few days. Not sure why. I did drop RU a few months ago, and have been shedding for about a month regardless.

sosa56
08-14-2013, 10:30 AM
I can say with certainty that my scalp is pretty itchy lately, and had a burning sensation for the next 24 hours after my last dermarolling solution. I don't use anything after dermarolling, i leave the skin as is and go to bed. I do use isopropanol to clean my dermaroller.

As a side note, I've been shedding a LOT in the last few days. Not sure why. I did drop RU a few months ago, and have been shedding for about a month regardless.

No but in the study protocol it says that betadine is used before the rolling to prepare the scalp

Hicks
08-14-2013, 10:37 AM
Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?

Hellouser are you using betadine and what are your views on it's necessity for the effectiveness of the procedure (i.e. if one doesnt use it then one will get micro infections in the follicles thereby causing 'bad' inflammation and negating the effects of the dermarolling as the poster above seems to suggest - surely you'd be able to tell if you had a scalp infection, isnt the betadine just applied to prevent an infection from the dermarolling?)?
I was wondering the same. Does betadine stain? Saline solution I just put some in my hair. The goal is to disinfect your scalp. After I rollered I used coconut oil. I used coconut oil because that's what I had.

hellouser
08-14-2013, 01:01 PM
Theres an AWESOME contribution to the wounding theory on Hair Loss Talk from a member by the name of 'princessrambo'


I think timing is critical when introducing an anti-inflammatory.

Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Wound-Induced Hair Follicle Neogenesis through the Receptor, Gpr44 (http://ge.tt/9DJ1gMU/v/0?c)


These results imply a regulatory network in hair follicles wherein PGD2 inhibits, whereas PGE2/F2a promote, hair follicle function.
PGs are key inflammatory mediators involved in wound. We also found that during wound healing, the capacity of tissue to generate PGE2 and PGD2 is separated over time, thus providing evidence consistent with the distinct functions of PGs. These results are similar to those observed after incisional wound healing in DBA/I mice (Kapoor et al., 2007). In C57Bl/ 6J and DBA/I strains and models of wound healing, PGE2 is the more abundant product during the early phases of wound healing. Elevated levels of PGE2, a potent immune activator, are consistent with progressing inflammation (Sakata et al., 2010). Whereas, at later stages, when inflammation is resolving, PGE2 levels taper off and PGD2 becomes the predominant PG.

Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Wound-Induced Hair Follicle Neogenesis through the Receptor, Gpr44

Now let's look at the charts provided in the study, specifically picture d,

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/pg-levels.jpg

We can clearly see that the critical point is day 5 when PGD2 starts to rise after wounding and day 8 is when the good prostaglandins PDGE/F start to dwindle and they seem to go back to their "baseline" levels (for us boldies, that mean pdg2 probably back to its f****g MPB level ) at day 15-ish.

I think that is (day 5 and after) where you should aim with your nizoral, PGD2 blocker (possible topical EGCG, Resveratrol, etc) and keep boosting fgf9 through PGE2 (possibly minox, castor oil, etc). I also think such treatment pattern is at the heart of follica's recent patent for hair loss. I would also add calcipotriol throughout the whole process to keep boosting Wnt throughout the cycle, i've had incredible amount of brand new terminal hair using it (diffuse pattern filling in), and i decided to combine it with the cheese grater thingy. The study posted in this thread used 7 day cycles and they got somewhat decent results but looking at the studies, It seems critical (from what i have researched) to keep longer windows between wounding sessions, I would personally advocate 10 days to two weeks minimum, as to not keep the scalp in a constant state of pro-inflammation and allow full cycle WIHN. I do believe that extensive wounding is necessary, like serious bad S**t crazy bleeding with no less than a 1.5mm grater

Link to thread: http://dft.ba/-princessrambo-wounding

chimera
08-14-2013, 01:36 PM
So, If we keep wounding once a week, would that keep the PGD2 low and the PGE high?

the_dude78
08-14-2013, 01:42 PM
Theres an AWESOME contribution to the wounding theory on Hair Loss Talk from a member by the name of 'princessrambo'



Link to thread: http://dft.ba/-princessrambo-wounding

Great find, Hellouser! Very interesting.

GreyGhost1864
08-14-2013, 02:11 PM
I am going to do it once a week for the first 12 then go to every 10 days. Will add the calcipatrol she speaks of. Spelled wrong. Scared to take a pic but I can tell you I feel fur in my crown. Can I get a amen. Close gents.....results in numbers! Ideas no lab FDA bs!
Ghost

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-14-2013, 02:18 PM
i feel excited about it, cant wait for results guys. do you think we solve the curse?

hellouser
08-14-2013, 02:22 PM
i feel excited about it, cant wait for results guys. do you think we solve the curse?

Given that the guy that had the burned scalp and regrew everything in that area... I think its absolutely *POSSIBLE* but we're still some steps away... as in; how deep do we wound? how often? when do we add minox? how much minox? should we inhibit anything else? does skins thickness play a role?

There are probably more questions we haven't yet asked that would answer this dilemma further.

Conpecia
08-14-2013, 03:00 PM
that's a damn good post. maybe i'll start by doing it every other week instead of every week.

brunobald
08-14-2013, 03:22 PM
Threads like that one just posted are another reason why we need a central website/forum concentrated on curing MPB. There are nuggets of golden info and conversation littered over several forums. If we can bring our minds together we can be far more effective than any single lab on earth. This is what the internet does so well. We are not fueled by the promise of money but a passion for advancing our treatment, something far more driven than a hired gun in a research lab. Sorry for going off topic but the potential of every guy and girl who is pissed off by hairloss contributing to a project like this is very exciting.

clandestine
08-14-2013, 03:24 PM
Given that the guy that had the burned scalp and regrew everything in that area... I think its absolutely *POSSIBLE* but we're still some steps away... as in; how deep do we wound? how often? when do we add minox? how much minox? should we inhibit anything else? does skins thickness play a role?

There are probably more questions we haven't yet asked that would answer this dilemma further.

Link to thread with guy who had burned scalp and regrew?

clarence
08-14-2013, 03:28 PM
Given that the guy that had the burned scalp and regrew everything in that area...

Hearsay.

hellouser
08-14-2013, 03:36 PM
Hearsay.

Dismissing the case would be ignorant. I would use it as support but not fact.

walrus
08-14-2013, 03:42 PM
Theres an AWESOME contribution to the wounding theory on Hair Loss Talk from a member by the name of 'princessrambo'



Link to thread: http://dft.ba/-princessrambo-wounding

Very nice find, feels like we are really homing in on something.

hellouser
08-14-2013, 03:46 PM
Very nice find, feels like we are really homing in on something.

Follica is supposedly using FGF-9 for their treatment for NEW hair follicle creation. I'm really curious if purchasing a small amount of FGF-9, putting it into a saline solution, and injecting it with a diabetic needle during or AFTER dermarolling/wounding would have give results.

Some guys tried using BNP-32, we know our body produces more of that on its own during heart failure, but FGF-9 is also produced by the body. It could potentially be very safe.

clandestine
08-14-2013, 03:49 PM
Link to thread with guy who had burned scalp and regrew?

hellouser;

hellouser
08-14-2013, 03:56 PM
Link to thread with guy who had burned scalp and regrew?

Its in this thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=138283&postcount=117

GreyGhost1864
08-14-2013, 04:05 PM
Just looked into my 10x mirror. And do not judge. I only had my transplanted hairs there. Last week in my widows peak had 8 new in a square inch area. Looked tonight many more. Have such high hopes! Other guys are right our means are not driven by money but our freedom from this bs. Keep the faith brothers.
Ghost

GreyGhost1864
08-14-2013, 04:10 PM
Brunobald you are correct! Together as many without thinking about money....we can solve this and maybe set a new standard for many other ailments. We can be the benchmark for other groups. Like I said what we do in life echos in eternity!
Ghost

clandestine
08-14-2013, 04:20 PM
GreyGhost; what is your current regimen?

clandestine
08-14-2013, 04:23 PM
Its in this thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=138283&postcount=117

Thanks, that's interesting.

GreyGhost1864
08-14-2013, 04:34 PM
Capillogain light and scalp med with booster. I know many downed capillogain but my eye brows are sweet. So I use cap in the morning and rub exsess on my eye brows. Use scalp med and booster at night. Update got promox in the mail. Dropping scalp med. So cap morning with eye brow swipe. Lunch 10% promox spray. Dinner 15% lotion. After 12 weeks of 540 pin 1.5's going to roll into every 10 days. **** hair loss. I just want 5 minutes with my ex wife.....god give me that!
Ghost

GreyGhost1864
08-14-2013, 04:39 PM
Mother ****er 5 minutes. I wouldn't piss on her head if she was on ****ing fire. I would because I am a good man. Dammit!
Ghost

GreyGhost1864
08-14-2013, 04:44 PM
21 years no peace! Norwood 6. I only feel normal in a ****ing hat! Tired!!!!!!!!!
I want my time here. A time of ****ing peace. To feel sexy and wanted. Not this head low slumped shoulder bullshit! Now god dammit! 21 years is enough!

Ghost

Tracy C
08-14-2013, 08:39 PM
Where do you get your betadine and saline solution?

You can get both at your local pharmacy. Then follow the directions on the bottles.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-15-2013, 06:29 AM
guys we must focus on the factor of shaved head.,

i believe if we dont shave we should get 2mm dermarollers...

i will get and press hard enough,

whats your opinion on differencies in galea tightness and wounding released factors? does it play a role?

goingquick
08-15-2013, 10:00 AM
Any suggestions to which derma roller to get? An amazon link would be appreciated

mari0s
08-15-2013, 10:16 AM
Any suggestions to which derma roller to get? An amazon link would be appreciated

from what i have seen the much expensive (and apreciated) brand is dr. roller, try to find one with the same characteristics

dex89
08-15-2013, 11:20 AM
I'm actually going to try this. I'll be buying mine at

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-Derma-Micro-Needle-Roller-540-Needles-2-0mm-Cellulite-Anti-aging-/320850240883?pt=US_Skin_Care&hash=item4ab42a2573

LevonHelms
08-15-2013, 11:59 AM
Dex, thats a 540 count roller. Everyone seems in agreement the 192 count rollers are the way to go.

hellouser
08-15-2013, 12:02 PM
Dex, thats a 540 count roller. Everyone seems in agreement the 192 count rollers are the way to go.

It probably doesn't matter as long as youre wounding enough.

35YrsAfter
08-15-2013, 12:26 PM
Dex, thats a 540 count roller. Everyone seems in agreement the 192 count rollers are the way to go.

I just asked Dr. Cole about 540 vs 192. He told me that there currently isn't any reliable study indicating that either is better. Then the question is how many passes with either roller? It appears to me that 540 would give more uniform surface coverage.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-15-2013, 12:33 PM
true but we should do it like the study who knows the outcome if anything changes

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-15-2013, 01:04 PM
guys the shaving was in the study for needling purpose or for hair length purpose o day and 12 week?

chimera
08-15-2013, 01:19 PM
guys the shaving was in the study for needling purpose or for hair length purpose o day and 12 week?

"After baseline global photographs, the scalp were shaved off to ensure equal length of hair shaft in all"

hellouser
08-15-2013, 01:32 PM
There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.


Photo:

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx246/DED_2010/electrolysis/cicatrizdeviruela.jpg

Thread Source:

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/72075/Lasers_Cause_Hair_Growth_in_Ta.html

Here's what one person in that thread had to say about lasers on the skin:


The area of the scapula is not due to receive hair on women. On the other hand many men have it.

The risk of hairs stimulated by the laser, increases when the sessions are recurrent.

Studies show that injuries (any type) long, induce hair growth in the area.
Have studied many types of injuries that produce this stimulation. As an example, the side of the back that bears the burden of bags. Or the Spanish carriers shoulder yet another burden to bear "sacred". Or that of girls who self-injure themselves by a disturbance in behavior.

dex89
08-15-2013, 01:37 PM
There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.


Photo:

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx246/DED_2010/electrolysis/cicatrizdeviruela.jpg

Thread Source:

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/72075/Lasers_Cause_Hair_Growth_in_Ta.html

Here's what one person in that thread had to say about lasers on the skin:

I personally think it's to good to be true but F it, might as well give it a shot like the other hair loss products I've tried. lol

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-15-2013, 01:37 PM
nice hell

laser wounding sounds even more hitech......
i guess he was not boosting pge2 too



thanks chimera , so i will get 1.5mm and not shave hair away but press enough

chimera
08-15-2013, 01:38 PM
oh man, this is all so exciting, but it is going to be so sad and painfull when it ends in another failure :(

walrus
08-15-2013, 01:42 PM
Anyone noticed anything thus far? Been a couple of weeks and the study saw results fast.

Hicks
08-15-2013, 01:55 PM
oh man, this is all so exciting, but it is going to be so sad and painfull when it ends in another failure :(

At least we'll go down swinging!

hellouser
08-15-2013, 02:00 PM
Anyone noticed anything thus far? Been a couple of weeks and the study saw results fast.

Nothing yet on my end, although I keep trying to look real close on my right temple and it almost looks like theres a single very thick hair growing just a few mm behind my hairline. I can't tell if this a new hair or an existing hair grown as it normally would.

I can with certainty that I'm shedding a lot in the last few weeks though. After each dermarolling session my scalp has a bit of a burning sensation. Last night, my 3rd dermarolling session, I had a more bleeding than the other two times. I would pretty much use my first session 2 weeks ago as a write off since there was very little blood. Its been about 17 hours since I dermarolled and I can still feel my scalp with a burning sensation. Its not itchy, it just feels 'inflamed'. I'm not sure what to make of this.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-15-2013, 02:00 PM
look brothers if it doesnt work then the study is fake or indians have diferent mpb gene , i cant explain it else

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-15-2013, 02:01 PM
lets hope the wnts get induced,
Nothing yet on my end, although I keep trying to look real close on my right temple and it almost looks like theres a single very thick hair growing just a few mm behind my hairline. I can't tell if this a new hair or an existing hair grown as it normally would.

I can with certainty that I'm shedding a lot in the last few weeks though. After each dermarolling session my scalp has a bit of a burning sensation. Last night, my 3rd dermarolling session, I had a more bleeding than the other two times. I would pretty much use my first session 2 weeks ago as a write off since there was very little blood. Its been about 17 hours since I dermarolled and I can still feel my scalp with a burning sensation. Its not itchy, it just feels 'inflamed'. I'm not sure what to make of this.

bigentries
08-15-2013, 02:35 PM
look brothers if it doesnt work then the study is fake or indians have diferent mpb gene , i cant explain it else

It doesn't have to be "fake", some studies are just subconsciously biased or badly conducted

I think people are again in the naive positivity territory, they need to calm down and wait a few weeks before speculating about anything.
The way people reacted at Tracy shows that some people have already decided to stop questioning the study

hellouser
08-15-2013, 05:36 PM
Found an article from 1988 on 'The Psoriatic Epidermal Lesion and Anagen Hair Growth May Share the Same "Switch-on" Mechanism'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590431/pdf/yjbm00077-0087.pdf

This theory predates Dr. Cotsarelis by about 20 years. Its interesting that nothing was done during that time to explore the theory further.

HARIRI
08-15-2013, 06:52 PM
I'm actually going to try this. I'll be buying mine at

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Titanium-Derma-Micro-Needle-Roller-540-Needles-2-0mm-Cellulite-Anti-aging-/320850240883?pt=US_Skin_Care&hash=item4ab42a2573

I may order this one, 540 needles for better coverage 1mm needles made of pure titanium no corrosion :D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Needle-Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-/251020132970?pt=UK_Health_HairLoss_RL&var=&hash=item3a71f7426a

hellouser
08-15-2013, 08:37 PM
Found an article from 1988 on 'The Psoriatic Epidermal Lesion and Anagen Hair Growth May Share the Same "Switch-on" Mechanism'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590431/pdf/yjbm00077-0087.pdf

This theory predates Dr. Cotsarelis by about 20 years. Its interesting that nothing was done during that time to explore the theory further.

Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;

Skin wound healing and hair growth device
Inventors Masahiro Ogasawara
Applicant Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

Here's one of the results in their patent study:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/skin-wounding-masahiro-ogasawara.jpg

Then I found this article:

Dextran hydrogel scaffolds enhance angiogenic responses and promote complete skin regeneration during burn wound healing


A 5-week-long study further demonstrated that dextran hydrogels promote complete skin regeneration with new hair growth

Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/52/20976/F7.expansion.html

And another wounding article:

Epithelial stem cells and implications for wound repair


The role of epithelial stem cells in wounding-induced hair follicle neogenesis. Following re-epithelialization of large full-thickness wounds, new hair follicles develop from the basal cells of the wound epidermis via a process of embryonic-like neogenesis.

Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1084952112001814

Found another article on a wounding anecdote from Stanford:

The secret life of hair follicles, revealed by Stanford researchers


Besides hair regeneration, the circuit is triggered by skin injury to stimulate migration of the bulge cells to the wounded area to differentiate into epidermal cells, thereby regenerating epidermis over the wounded skin.

Source: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/04/19/the-secret-life-of-hair-follicles-revealed-by-stanford-researchers/

An unrelated article:
Published Studies on Tissue and Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides
Source: http://skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html#hair

Notice that in this article Hitzig's name is mentioned

DesperateOne
08-15-2013, 09:38 PM
Any suggestions to which derma roller to get? An amazon link would be appreciated

If you haven't ordered, this is the one that everyone including me are using.
I recommend getting at least two because you might mess one up and you don't want to pay for shipping again. At least, that's what I did.

http://amzn.to/175RbGD

DesperateOne
08-15-2013, 09:42 PM
Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;

Skin wound healing and hair growth device
Inventors Masahiro Ogasawara
Applicant Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

Here's one of the results in their patent study:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/skin-wounding-masahiro-ogasawara.jpg

Then I found this article:

Dextran hydrogel scaffolds enhance angiogenic responses and promote complete skin regeneration during burn wound healing



Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/52/20976/F7.expansion.html

And another wounding article:

Epithelial stem cells and implications for wound repair



Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1084952112001814

Found another article on a wounding anecdote from Stanford:

The secret life of hair follicles, revealed by Stanford researchers



Source: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/04/19/the-secret-life-of-hair-follicles-revealed-by-stanford-researchers/

An unrelated article:
Published Studies on Tissue and Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides
Source: http://skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html#hair

Notice that in this article Hitzig's name is mentioned

I think we might really be onto something there :), I have a suspect that diffuse thinners are going to benefit the most because they're follicles are not completely dead, just my theory.

It's freaking crazy that I had not heard about the dermaroller before, not just for hair loss.

hellouser
08-15-2013, 10:05 PM
Found another patent document on wounding:


The present invention relates to improved topical administration of one or more growth factors for non-surgical, cosmetic use. In particular, a combination of one or more growth factors with a microneedle roller. Specifically, the invention resides in a kit for cosmetic use comprising: one or more growth factors, growth factor mimetics, and/or growth factor receptor agonists formulated for topical application; and means to perform wounding of skin, such as a microneedle array, wherein the wounding is targeted to at least the epidermis and/or dermis of the skin to release endogenous thrombin into dermal and/or epidermal tissue.

Source:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120116295

Whats really interesting is that I've come across quite a few articles that suggest growth using the wounding technique AND applying growth factors.. SIMILAR to the ones lilpauly has mentioned, which are also SIMILAR to the ones used by Histogen for HSC.

If this isn't exciting... I don't know what is. Dan26 will be trialing the growth factors from lilpauly AND wounding. I can't wait to see the results (if any).

LevonHelms
08-15-2013, 10:12 PM
Thanks for all the research Hellouser, you're bringing a lot of great info to the thread!
I'm cautiously hopeful that we've actually got something here.

HARIRI
08-15-2013, 11:13 PM
Found another patent document on wounding:



Source:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120116295

Whats really interesting is that I've come across quite a few articles that suggest growth using the wounding technique AND applying growth factors.. SIMILAR to the ones lilpauly has mentioned, which are also SIMILAR to the ones used by Histogen for HSC.

If this isn't exciting... I don't know what is. Dan26 will be trialing the growth factors from lilpauly AND wounding. I can't wait to see the results (if any).

Interesting study, Pangaea laboratories is the main company producing Nanogen. I asked them already about that, they told me they were using their Nanogen 0.5mm titanium scalp roller along with their hair growth serum. Seems like 0.5mm is doing a good job too, thanks for the link Hellouser. :D

Nanogen Pangaea laboratories told me as well that needles above 1mm are not recommended and could somehow hurt hair follicles badly and that safe for home use. They are producing three types now (0.3mm (Home use), 0.5mm (Home use) (one used in the study) and 1 mm (Medical use)). So the safe range is between 0.5 to 1mm I believe so. Look at more studies Guys, don't just depend on one only. That is my advice.

Additional advice: A lot of needle rollers in the market don't provide titanium needles but only a needle covered with metal film or called stainless steel. These will come off easily after few uses and may be harmful to human skin. Advantages of Titanium needles is that when you soak them in medical alcohol for sterilizing they wont become dark and they are less painful than steel ones.

Knockin on NW4
08-15-2013, 11:36 PM
u need 1.5mm brah, dont be scurred :D

Chromeo
08-16-2013, 01:33 AM
1.5mm is the way to go, I believe. No pain, no gain.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 02:13 AM
there is a 3x2cm area 10 cm under my nipple where i got injured enough i could say while i was ioutsteping from the car by the doors window ....

it was like redish and blueish like when you get punched lol for at least a month now i am like a dog there , the area has hair, i can up a pic when i can(i dont have camera at the moment)

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 02:14 AM
and that brothers tells me only one thing, at least for me


THE WOUNDS MAKE HAIR IT IS TRUE

534623
08-16-2013, 05:10 AM
and that brothers tells me only one thing, at least for me


THE WOUNDS MAKE HAIR IT IS TRUE

Yeah, so I think you guys should visit Dr. Hannibal Lecter ...

http://www.allmystery.de/i/t0ac03b_hannibal-lecter-eating-brain.jpg?bc

He is the only doctor on this planet who found out the proper dermaroller deepness for hair follicle stimulation - and therefore hair regrowth. :)

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 05:35 AM
lol thats 2 in one .smp and regrowth thanks we might drop by his meat market
Yeah, so I think you guys should visit Dr. Hannibal Lecter ...

http://www.allmystery.de/i/t0ac03b_hannibal-lecter-eating-brain.jpg?bc

He is the only doctor on this planet who found out the proper dermaroller deepness for hair follicle stimulation - and therefore hair regrowth. :)

clandestine
08-16-2013, 05:36 AM
So the majority of people are using 1.5mm? Not 1mm?

HARIRI
08-16-2013, 05:40 AM
OK guys I will stop acting like a P***y and get the 1.5mm Titanium dermaroller. I will get this one:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Needle-Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-/251020132970?pt=UK_Health_HairLoss_RL&var=&hash=item3a71f7426a

Its 540 titanium needles and it will give better coverage than 192 needles. Any thoughts?

Your are right after all about the 1.5mm, no pain no gain. I hope it wont leave any scarring. I will use it on my non hair transplanted areas like midscalp and crown every Saturday before bedtime as mentioned before. How many minutes I should use it in one session? Any advice?

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 05:58 AM
5 to 10 min roll it until it becomes like somebody hitted you hard and see at least some blood drops
OK guys I will stop acting like a P***y and get the 1.5mm Titanium dermaroller. I will get this one:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Needle-Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-/251020132970?pt=UK_Health_HairLoss_RL&var=&hash=item3a71f7426a

Its 540 titanium needles and it will give better coverage than 192 needles. Any thoughts?

Your are right after all about the 1.5mm, no pain no gain. I hope it wont leave any scarring. I will use it on my non hair transplanted areas like midscalp and crown every Saturday before bedtime as mentioned before. How many minutes I should use it in one session? Any advice?

Julian P
08-16-2013, 06:02 AM
OK guys I will stop acting like a P***y and get the 1.5mm Titanium dermaroller. I will get this one:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/540-Micro-Needle-Derma-Roller-Skin-Anti-Aging-Scars-Cellulite-Acne-Stretch-Marks-/251020132970?pt=UK_Health_HairLoss_RL&var=&hash=item3a71f7426a

Its 540 titanium needles and it will give better coverage than 192 needles. Any thoughts?

Your are right after all about the 1.5mm, no pain no gain. I hope it wont leave any scarring. I will use it on my non hair transplanted areas like midscalp and crown every Saturday before bedtime as mentioned before. How many minutes I should use it in one session? Any advice?

In the review on that owndoc's website posted earlier in this thread, they advice against 540needle dermarollers. They say that the needles look more like knives and could acutally damage the skin. Off course it's a commercial website, but they seem to know what they 're talking about.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 06:08 AM
put it together here ----------


since they used 1.5mm 192 needls in the study why experiment further?

their results are miraculus, we must do it like that if we get the same success then we can discuss further posibilities


...

i mean who knows what might happen in an other way, galea necrosis. more hairloss. many things that are creepy and scary,

35YrsAfter
08-16-2013, 07:56 AM
There was a thread on another forum I saw where a guy had a tattoo removed from his arm using a laser. In the following weeks, thick terminal hair grew from this area, and not just one or two strands of hair, at least a dozen within the former tattoo area which looked to be about 2x2 inches in size.


Photo:

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx246/DED_2010/electrolysis/cicatrizdeviruela.jpg

Thread Source:

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/72075/Lasers_Cause_Hair_Growth_in_Ta.html

Here's what one person in that thread had to say about lasers on the skin:

Laser caps and other types of laser therapy have shown some effectiveness in the treatment of hair loss. The laser caps are way too expensive IMO. One of our patients built his own. I'm not recommending you do that though and I'm sure there are some risks involved in using laser light.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office

hellouser
08-16-2013, 09:27 AM
Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;

Skin wound healing and hair growth device
Inventors Masahiro Ogasawara
Applicant Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

Here's one of the results in their patent study:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/skin-wounding-masahiro-ogasawara.jpg

Then I found this article:

Dextran hydrogel scaffolds enhance angiogenic responses and promote complete skin regeneration during burn wound healing



Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/52/20976/F7.expansion.html

And another wounding article:

Epithelial stem cells and implications for wound repair



Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1084952112001814

Found another article on a wounding anecdote from Stanford:

The secret life of hair follicles, revealed by Stanford researchers



Source: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/04/19/the-secret-life-of-hair-follicles-revealed-by-stanford-researchers/

An unrelated article:
Published Studies on Tissue and Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides
Source: http://skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html#hair

Notice that in this article Hitzig's name is mentioned

These articles really need to be looked at by the community here. Also, and courtesy of Conpecia, he was able to remember a case from law school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkins_v._McGee


Hawkins' hand was scarred from contact with an electrical wire. He was approached by McGee, a doctor, about having the scars removed. McGee guaranteed to make the injured hand a "one hundred percent good hand". McGee used a technique of "skin grafting" that he was unfamiliar with and failed to remove the scars. Because McGee used skin from Hawkins's chest area, the graft caused the palm of Hawkins' hand to grow thick hair.

The increasing evidence of wounding theory is starting to pile up....!!! Thanks for the article Conpecia :)

hellouser
08-16-2013, 10:12 AM
Found another thread on an acne forum that shows some interesting details on wounding/scarring/healing:

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/157005-scarless-healing/page-160

http://i42.tinypic.com/noeow7.jpg

Axel
08-16-2013, 10:15 AM
I think we might really be onto something there :), I have a suspect that diffuse thinners are going to benefit the most because they're follicles are not completely dead, just my theory.

It's freaking crazy that I had not heard about the dermaroller before, not just for hair loss.

We are talking about hair follicle neogenesis so I don't see why diffuse thinners (like me) could get more benefit then others... It is not about waking up existing follicles but create new ones.

Axel
08-16-2013, 10:32 AM
Ok, so along with this tidbit, I was able to find a LOT of other articles on wound theory. This first one is particularly *really* interesting;

Skin wound healing and hair growth device
Inventors Masahiro Ogasawara
Applicant Mignon Belle Co., Ltd.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

Here's one of the results in their patent study:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/skin-wounding-masahiro-ogasawara.jpg

Then I found this article:

Dextran hydrogel scaffolds enhance angiogenic responses and promote complete skin regeneration during burn wound healing



Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/108/52/20976/F7.expansion.html

And another wounding article:

Epithelial stem cells and implications for wound repair



Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1084952112001814

Found another article on a wounding anecdote from Stanford:

The secret life of hair follicles, revealed by Stanford researchers



Source: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/04/19/the-secret-life-of-hair-follicles-revealed-by-stanford-researchers/

An unrelated article:
Published Studies on Tissue and Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides
Source: http://skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html#hair

Notice that in this article Hitzig's name is mentioned


It seems to me Cots et al are testing the most promising vector: letting the body heal alopecia by itself. They just need to learn the level of wounding needed...

I guess we'll be able to say EUREKA after 12 weeks of the dermarolling community trial

*Fingers crossed*

sosa56
08-16-2013, 10:59 AM
In the review on that owndoc's website posted earlier in this thread, they advice against 540needle dermarollers. They say that the needles look more like knives and could acutally damage the skin. Off course it's a commercial website, but they seem to know what they 're talking about.

So what's the consensus then 540 or 192? You really think that 540 could be counterproductive? I've been using a 540 i think

hellouser
08-16-2013, 01:22 PM
From PrincessRambo on Hair Loss Talk:

This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:

http://scitechdaily.com/study-points-to-a-way-to-treat-wounds-and-grow-hair/

http://scitechdaily.com/images/Growth-Factor-Fgf9-Triggers-Hair-Growth-after-Injury.jpg

Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think .

I will be out for blood tonight with my 1.5mm roller in the mean time, WHO IS WITH ME? "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM, THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT, THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE... SPARTANSSSS, READY YOUR BREAKFAST AND DRINK HEARTY."

http://www.troll.me/images/leonidas/tonight-we-dine-in-hell.jpg

Buy The Ticket
08-16-2013, 01:38 PM
From PrincessRambo on Hair Loss Talk:

This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:

http://scitechdaily.com/study-points-to-a-way-to-treat-wounds-and-grow-hair/

http://scitechdaily.com/images/Growth-Factor-Fgf9-Triggers-Hair-Growth-after-Injury.jpg

Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think .

I will be out for blood tonight with my 1.5mm roller in the mean time, WHO IS WITH ME? "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM, THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT, THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE... SPARTANSSSS, READY YOUR BREAKFAST AND DRINK HEARTY."

http://www.troll.me/images/leonidas/tonight-we-dine-in-hell.jpg

I'm with you. First night tonight I will try the dermaroller. Just need a little advice if you don't mind, balding brother.

Before I use it, do I need to sterilise the roller straight from the packet before it's first use?

And will it be enough to just prepare the scalp via shower & shampoo?

Also after I use it, should I rinse my head again? And will olive oil be ok to apply as a post rolling ointment?

Would really appreciate some advice, I know it will be in this thread somewhere but it's become quite extensive!

Cheers

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 01:42 PM
prepare the scalp with betadine and saline solution and sterilize that roller to be safe. i would suggest betadine afterwards too, for 24h nothing else


press it hard to get at least some blood drops and make it red,,,, it wont work otherwise

hellouser
08-16-2013, 01:46 PM
I'm with you. First night tonight I will try the dermaroller. Just need a little advice if you don't mind, balding brother.

Before I use it, do I need to sterilise the roller straight from the packet before it's first use?

And will it be enough to just prepare the scalp via shower & shampoo?

Also after I use it, should I rinse my head again? And will olive oil be ok to apply as a post rolling ointment?

Would really appreciate some advice, I know it will be in this thread somewhere but it's become quite extensive!

Cheers

Read Too Young To Retire's answer above mine, its spot on.

I don't use any ointments or betadine after on my scalp, i just leave it as is and go to bed. I clean the dermaroller with isopropanol (99% alcohol, a disinfectant basically).

Buy The Ticket
08-16-2013, 01:51 PM
Read Too Young To Retire's answer above mine, its spot on.

I don't use any ointments or betadine after on my scalp, i just leave it as is and go to bed. I clean the dermaroller with isopropanol (99% alcohol, a disinfectant basically).

Thanks for the answers chaps...

Slight issue, I have none of those things. Just rubbing alcohol in spray that I planned to clean that Dermaroller with.

So would you advise against me trying it tonight with a clean head and a fresh roller?

Really want to start it tonight...

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-16-2013, 01:53 PM
if you get infected then you are ****ed so dont do it yet bro
Thanks for the answers chaps...

Slight issue, I have none of those things. Just rubbing alcohol in spray that I planned to clean that Dermaroller with.

So would you advise against me trying it tonight with a clean head and a fresh roller?

Really want to start it tonight...

hellouser
08-16-2013, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the answers chaps...

Slight issue, I have none of those things. Just rubbing alcohol in spray that I planned to clean that Dermaroller with.

So would you advise against me trying it tonight with a clean head and a fresh roller?

Really want to start it tonight...

You should be fine to use it without cleaning it first, the company that makes it would get in a heap of shit if it sold infected rollers. But its always better to be safe. Rubbing alcohol should work to some degree. Why not just go to the pharmacy and buy some disinfectant alcohol? Its cheap, for my isopropanol i paid about $4.00 CAD for 500ml.

brunobald
08-16-2013, 01:54 PM
Has anyone got some photos after/during rolling?

35YrsAfter
08-16-2013, 01:56 PM
From PrincessRambo on Hair Loss Talk:

This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:

http://scitechdaily.com/study-points-to-a-way-to-treat-wounds-and-grow-hair/

http://scitechdaily.com/images/Growth-Factor-Fgf9-Triggers-Hair-Growth-after-Injury.jpg

Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think .

I will be out for blood tonight with my 1.5mm roller in the mean time, WHO IS WITH ME? "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM, THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT, THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE... SPARTANSSSS, READY YOUR BREAKFAST AND DRINK HEARTY."

http://www.troll.me/images/leonidas/tonight-we-dine-in-hell.jpg

I just sent that study to Dr. Cole. How difficult can it be to overexpress the growth factor in men with MPB?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
Cole Hair Transplant
Atlanta, GA
Phone 678-566-1011
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.

hellouser
08-16-2013, 01:57 PM
Has anyone got some photos after/during rolling?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=138613&postcount=176

That was my first time dermarolling. I'm ruling it out more or less as thats as much blood/wounding I was able to get. My next session was a little more rigorous and my third was significantly more. I have pics of my third session in my temple's corners. I'll post photos later on.

hellouser
08-16-2013, 01:58 PM
I just sent that study to Dr. Cole. How difficult can it be to overexpress the growth factor in men with MPB?

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.

Awesome! Thank you! Please let us know of the potential outcomes, will be VERY interesting to see what he has to say! :)

brunobald
08-16-2013, 02:05 PM
Doesn't look too bad, prob hurts more than it looks though. :D

1.5MM I guess you must be hitting the skull with the tips of the needles in some parts of the scalp? My scalp feels thinner than 1.5mm on the top.

DesperateOne
08-16-2013, 02:55 PM
Okay so the question I want answered is this, what topical induces Fgf9?
Is there anything else out there that people found?

hellouser
08-16-2013, 02:59 PM
Okay so the question I want answered is this, what topical induces Fgf9?
Is there anything else out there that people found?

FGF-9 is a fibroblast growth factor. Its induced when wounding occurs. The premise is that applying minoxidil to the wounded area induces PGE2 levels which induces FGF-9, which SHOULD create new hair follicles. However, injecting more FGF-9, a synthetic compound I guess, could potentially increase the number of hair growth.

hellouser
08-16-2013, 03:12 PM
One more related article:

Wounding enhances epidermal tumorigenesis by recruiting hair follicle keratinocytes

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/4099.short?rss=1

Buy The Ticket
08-16-2013, 04:07 PM
You should be fine to use it without cleaning it first, the company that makes it would get in a heap of shit if it sold infected rollers. But its always better to be safe. Rubbing alcohol should work to some degree. Why not just go to the pharmacy and buy some disinfectant alcohol? Its cheap, for my isopropanol i paid about $4.00 CAD for 500ml.

OK,just gave it a try as it's a fresh roller and I'll buy the solutions for next weeks session of pain.

I can't believe how painful this is!!!!! And there's no blood. Should there be?

chimera
08-16-2013, 04:12 PM
One more related article:

Wounding enhances epidermal tumorigenesis by recruiting hair follicle keratinocytes

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/4099.short?rss=1

Isn't that like, very bad?

GreyGhost1864
08-16-2013, 04:54 PM
Sup fellas...time to do some rolling. Promise no ex wife remarks but she can suck a wet very juicy fart. Keep the faith! I got fuzz everywhere. Just a matter of time. Tomorrow I was thinking about pulling out the grill little charcoal get it hot and scorching my whole head watcha think?��
Ghost

goingquick
08-16-2013, 06:16 PM
If you haven't ordered, this is the one that everyone including me are using.
I recommend getting at least two because you might mess one up and you don't want to pay for shipping again. At least, that's what I did.

http://amzn.to/175RbGD

Ordered! Thanks for the link

GreyGhost1864
08-16-2013, 06:33 PM
Just finished a lot more blood this time. I think this is a good thing. Did my 1.5 then my .5. Then did my face with the .5. My nose pores are so much smaller. I have a age spot on my hand. Going to hit it now to see if it changes. Cheers fellas and princess Rambo.
Ghost
Remember guys what we do in life echoes in eternity!

Brock Landers
08-16-2013, 10:02 PM
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/4099.short?rss=1

Yea, read this link again....wounding causes skin tumors and cancer?! Hmmmm...

DesperateOne
08-16-2013, 10:02 PM
Just finished a lot more blood this time. I think this is a good thing. Did my 1.5 then my .5. Then did my face with the .5. My nose pores are so much smaller. I have a age spot on my hand. Going to hit it now to see if it changes. Cheers fellas and princess Rambo.
Ghost
Remember guys what we do in life echoes in eternity!

I also have kinda big nose pores sometimes called orange skin, so this is making them smaller for you after how long of use?

I used the 1.5mm on my nose and holly shit, that is the most painful part I have done it at, I don't even think it's going in all the way and it hurts like hell.

Also, I did it on my neck, but I am now worried that I might hit a vein, do you think this is possible?

DesperateOne
08-16-2013, 10:19 PM
You changed your post the same time I responded to what you originally said.

The point is that you cannot use a person who never had MPB as a useable example when talking about a possible treatment for MPB.

You can consider washing your hair so it becomes thinner and then rolling it.

Or you can always shave it and let it grow back in 3-4 months :D

Knockin on NW4
08-17-2013, 12:36 AM
I also have kinda big nose pores sometimes called orange skin, so this is making them smaller for you after how long of use?

I used the 1.5mm on my nose and holly shit, that is the most painful part I have done it at, I don't even think it's going in all the way and it hurts like hell.

Also, I did it on my neck, but I am now worried that I might hit a vein, do you think this is possible?

u need a 0.5mm for the face!

hellouser
08-17-2013, 01:03 AM
Doesn't look too bad, prob hurts more than it looks though. :D

1.5MM I guess you must be hitting the skull with the tips of the needles in some parts of the scalp? My scalp feels thinner than 1.5mm on the top.

Here's my last dermarolling session from a couple days ago:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-08-14-right-temple.jpg

It's my right temple, as you can see I'm far more harsh on my skin now.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-17-2013, 02:16 AM
hellouser i believe it will work on you, you only do temples?

hellouser
08-17-2013, 02:33 AM
hellouser i believe it will work on you, you only do temples?

I'm wounding everywhere that I'm losing hair. At the moment I'm trying to focus on the hairline/temples. I do have something interesting to report:

At the lower end in the middle/front of my hairline, closer to my right temple, there are a few hairs starting to grow in VERY thick compared to all the others surrounding it. Oddly enough, most hair grows in thin around the hairline and THEN it gets thicker. But these new little bastards are coming in heavy, and I'm monitoring them closely... they just seem so out of place. However, this area I do recall being wounded more so than the other areas a week prior, I remember seeing a 2cm strip of blood around this part so perhaps the more severe wounding is giving birth to either new follicles or rejuvenating existing dormant follicles.

Within a couple weeks I should have a definitive answer as whether or not the temples I wound more severely a couple days ago will make a difference in new hair growth. If so, then obviously I'll continue this practice.

I raised an interesting point about certain upcoming and existing treatments; why is it that hair treatment usually rejuvenates in areas closer to where existing TERMINAL hair exists? Why is that a bald spot in the crown only gets slowly filled in but NEVER completely at once? This was the case for Aderans from the photos we saw. Also is the case for finasteride and minox. Notice how diffuse thinners respond so well to treatments, ALL of what they lose typically fills in since the hair is everywhere. I remember reading one of the articles I posted that mentioned something to the extent that when skin and follicles are disrupted through wounding, existing follicles emit cells for healing. Which is interesting to note the close proximity of hair SLOWLY creeping back to its original state when getting on fin, and potentially wounding, its almost as if you need existing hair to make a change. Of course, I'm only speculating but its something I've noticed over my time looking at treatments.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-17-2013, 03:09 AM
nice point hell


advise-try to press hard and badly.. you need mild erythema, i can translate that in redish painfull skin plus the blood drops you already have ;)

take care let us know bro

sosa56
08-17-2013, 03:21 AM
I'm wounding everywhere that I'm losing hair. At the moment I'm trying to focus on the hairline/temples. I do have something interesting to report:

At the lower end in the middle/front of my hairline, closer to my right temple, there are a few hairs starting to grow in VERY thick compared to all the others surrounding it. Oddly enough, most hair grows in thin around the hairline and THEN it gets thicker. But these new little bastards are coming in heavy, and I'm monitoring them closely... they just seem so out of place. However, this area I do recall being wounded more so than the other areas a week prior, I remember seeing a 2cm strip of blood around this part so perhaps the more severe wounding is giving birth to either new follicles or rejuvenating existing dormant follicles.

Within a couple weeks I should have a definitive answer as whether or not the temples I wound more severely a couple days ago will make a difference in new hair growth. If so, then obviously I'll continue this practice.

I raised an interesting point about certain upcoming and existing treatments; why is it that hair treatment usually rejuvenates in areas closer to where existing TERMINAL hair exists? Why is that a bald spot in the crown only gets slowly filled in but NEVER completely at once? This was the case for Aderans from the photos we saw. Also is the case for finasteride and minox. Notice how diffuse thinners respond so well to treatments, ALL of what they lose typically fills in since the hair is everywhere. I remember reading one of the articles I posted that mentioned something to the extent that when skin and follicles are disrupted through wounding, existing follicles emit cells for healing. Which is interesting to note the close proximity of hair SLOWLY creeping back to its original state when getting on fin, and potentially wounding, its almost as if you need existing hair to make a change. Of course, I'm only speculating but its something I've noticed over my time looking at treatments.

Please are you using 540 or 192 needle?

hellouser
08-17-2013, 03:22 AM
Please are you using 540 or 192 needle?

192, I've mentioned this several times in this thread. You guys need to read the whole thread.

hellouser
08-17-2013, 03:25 AM
nice point hell


advise-try to press hard and badly.. you need mild erythema, i can translate that in redish painfull skin plus the blood drops you already have ;)

take care let us know bro

Actually, theres a small trick I did last time;

Sometimes the pain would be pretty bad, and I would tear up and want to sneeze, but most of the pain was coming from the actual rolling across the scalp while pressing down. Instead, I simply pressed down, moved the roller, pressed down again... repeat. Eventually you'll pierce through the skin. I'm not sure how this well translate into disrupted skin/follicles but for a final touch if you can't handle any more pain, its not a bad idea.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-17-2013, 04:06 AM
sounds good. hell why dont you up a pic with the new hair you noticed? its early to tell yet, i am optomistic with you cause you seem to do science . your on roller and minox only right?
Actually, theres a small trick I did last time;

Sometimes the pain would be pretty bad, and I would tear up and want to sneeze, but most of the pain was coming from the actual rolling across the scalp while pressing down. Instead, I simply pressed down, moved the roller, pressed down again... repeat. Eventually you'll pierce through the skin. I'm not sure how this well translate into disrupted skin/follicles but for a final touch if you can't handle any more pain, its not a bad idea.

brunobald
08-17-2013, 05:00 AM
Sometimes the pain would be pretty bad, and I would tear up and want to sneeze, but most of the pain was coming from the actual rolling across the scalp while pressing down. Instead, I simply pressed down, moved the roller, pressed down again... repeat. Eventually you'll pierce through the skin. I'm not sure how this well translate into disrupted skin/follicles but for a final touch if you can't handle any more pain, its not a bad idea.

This make a lot of sence as the needles are not rotating through the skin to enter and exit. The big question is, do you need maximum disruption to the skin OR would a simple stabbing action; in and out suffice?

What about numbing the area with Ice before rolling?

HARIRI
08-17-2013, 06:18 AM
Guys, I started using my Nanogen Titanium Scalp Roller 0.5mm because the seller doesnt accept refunds. All what I can say is that it hurts and irritates sometimes. I dont think I could handle 1.5mm for God sake. Hellouser, you are really brave. I will just keep using it everyday as instructed in the leaflet. Maybe it will do something, better than nothing. Actually they mentioned in their website that

The Scalproller has 4 innovative modes of action to enhance any hair treatment regimen:

1. Increases Topical Treatment Absorption

Scalproller pre-treatment has been shown to increase absorption of topical treatments by 5 times or more. With Scalproller pre-treatment, lower 2% concentrations of a topical treatment solution will give concentrations in the scalp higher than when using 5% solutions on untreated skin. Similarly, 5% solutions will produce higher concentrations in the scalp than 12.5% solutions or suspensions used on untreated skin. Frontal scalp areas are notoriously difficult to treat topically, most probably due to lack of absorption. Therefore topical treatments are only really effective in treating vertex hair loss. Using Nanogen's Scalproller can dramatically increase absorption of topical treatments in these regions, opening up new potential areas for topical treatments to act on.

2. Heals Donor Scars

Hair transplant surgery commonly leaves scars in the donor region; Nanogen's Scalproller has been proven to fade and reduce the appearance of these scars by breaking up scar tissue structures and formations. Plus there is evidence in animal models to show that new hair may grow to conceal the donor area after Scalproller treatment.

3. Activates PRP Treatment

Platelet Rich Plasma or PRP therapy is a cutting edge development in hair loss treatment. PRP has been shown to produce thicker transplanted hair growth, and possibly even thicken non-transplanted hair. In PRP therapy, the platelet and growth factor rich fraction of the patient's blood is re-injected into them, and then growth is activated by repeated needle insertion. Single needle insertion is irregular, time consuming and often painful. Scalproller treatment produces much more reliable, regular needle insertions in less time, and with less pain.

4. Encourages New Hair Growth

The latest research by Intercytex, performed with Dr. Bessam Farjo as principal investigator, has shown that patients receiving superficial injections and controlled wounding grow new hair, which may solely be a result of the controlled skin wounding itself. This surprising result is correlated by the pioneering work published by Dr. George Cotsarelis of Pennsylvania University, who found that stimulation of the Wnt protein by wounding leads to hair regeneration. Wounding by microneedles would potentially start this Wnt protein mediated growth stimulation, and prevent synthesis of TGF-β2, a protein known to induce hair loss.

Scalproller treatment increases topical treatment penetration and may independently promote new hair growth.

Here is the Q & A

What is a Scalproller?
Nanogen's Scalproller is a treatment previously only available through Trichologists or Dermatologists. The 0.3mm & 0.5mm models have now made this treatment available for use at home. It is a cylindrical barrel with precision engineered titanium microneedles which penetrate the top layers of skin without causing damage or bleeding. This accurate and non-intrusive penetration allows much higher absorption of scalp treatments like Serum VEGF. It may also stimulate scalp healing and hair growth by itself as it can stimulate the scalp's healing response.

How will Nanogen's Scalproller Work?
As you roll the roller over your scalp it penetrates the upper layers of skin. By opening the skin in this way you dramatically increase the penetration of any topical growth product, increasing its efficacy. These perforations also stimulate the scalp's healing mechanisms, increasing production of many important factors for a healthy scalp.

Can I use the Scalproller more than once a day?
At first, the Scalproller is designed to be used once daily, and is far more intensive than any skin roller, using more than once daily may be possible after time, depending on the individual. If used more than once a day initially the Scalproller may cause more irritation than is aimed for, and even cause damage.

When using the Scalproller do I roll over each part of my scalp only once?
At first, use a single motion once over each area of scalp, rolling gently forward from the crown. This produces a controlled amount of irritation and avoids tangling the roller in longer hair. After time, individual users may prefer to roll in multiple directions.

Which needle length Scalproller should I use?
Nanogen's genuine Scalproller is available in 2 versions for home use. The 0.3mm version is recommended for patients with very thin hair or pain sensitive skin. A 0.5mm home version is available to ensure penetration even with thicker hair.

Will the Scalproller mark my scalp, cause redness, or cause pain or bleeding?
When used as directed, the Scalproller will only cause small or no marks, and the marks will fade in under a minute. Scalproller treatment may cause a flush to your scalp that will fade in a few hours, but no long-lasting redness. The Scalprollers made available for home use have sharp, durable titanium needles that do not cause appreciable pain or bleeding.

Do I use Nanogen's Scalproller over my whole scalp, or just the thinning area?
As the main aim of the Scalproller is to help topical hair loss treatments penetrate, you should use the Scalproller everywhere that you will apply your topical treatment. However using it elsewhere will certainly not do any harm.

Is this the same as other Skin or Derma Rollers?
No. Other skin rollers have different needle lengths, and are designed to be used for different purposes. Some claim they will work on Hair Loss, but Nanogen's Scalproller is the first specially designed for use on the scalp and for use every day. No other skin roller is made from unique titanium needles, so only the Scalproller can be reused intensively for 3-6 months.

Can I use a topical solution with the Scalproller?
Yes, the Scalproller is designed to be used with topical treatments to increase their efficacy, you should still follow the guidelines on your topical treatments for their application.

When do I use a topical solution with the Scalproller?
You use the Scalproller first, to increase the penetration of the treatment, then the topical treatment. You should still follow the guidelines on your topical treatments for their application.

I use more than one topical solution, which should I apply first?
The same as you did before you used the Scalproller, you should still follow the guidelines on your topical treatments for their application.

How long will the Scalproller last for?
Even when used daily, due to its unique durable titanium microneedles Nanogen's Scalproller can last from 3-6 months.

How do I know when to replace my Scalproller?
There will be no visible signs of the sharpness deteriorating. After 3 months, if you begin to notice any increase in pain or inflammation while using the Scalproller, this is a sign the needles are becoming less sharp, and you need to replace it. After 6 months you should replace your Scalproller, even if you have not noticed a difference in pain or inflammation.

Is Nanogen's Scalproller Guaranteed to Work?
Like all Nanogen products, the Scalproller is manufactured and quality controlled to exacting standards. Unfortunately, due to regulations on handling of biological material, we cannot accept returns of a used Scalproller and so cannot refund the product.


Here is the link:-

http://www.nanogenaustralia.com/product.php?productid=16165

NeedHairASAP
08-17-2013, 06:36 AM
this has been around awhile. Dont you think somebody would have reported results (not neccessarily a forum member).



Also, if laser tattoo removal caused hair growth, dont you think somebody would have tried an experiment with it?


if not, experiments for both could easily be crowdfunded cheap.

Chromeo
08-17-2013, 08:15 AM
this has been around awhile. Dont you think somebody would have reported results (not neccessarily a forum member).


I've been dermarolling on and off since last November and have noticed a degree of regrowth. I just put it down to enhanced absorption of topicals, not to wounding. I wasn't aware of the wounding concept.



Also, if laser tattoo removal caused hair growth, dont you think somebody would have tried an experiment with it?


Not necessarily. It's taken this long to even get a study published on microneedling, even though the wounding concept has seemingly been around for years. Unfortunately we all know how slowly things seem to move in the world of hairloss treatments.

chimera
08-17-2013, 08:27 AM
Also, if laser tattoo removal caused hair growth, dont you think somebody would have tried an experiment with it?

As hellouser showed us, somebody already tried and experimented with laser:




http://www.google.com/patents/EP2508228A1?cl=en

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/skin-wounding-masahiro-ogasawara.jpg

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-17-2013, 08:37 AM
1.early result week first hair is growing faster

an interesting point to expect from the study :):)

Tracy C
08-17-2013, 08:57 AM
...somebody already tried and experimented with laser:

I found that post very interesting because I have been using LLLT since November of 2007 myself.

I will not be changing my current regimen. I will only be adding dermarolling to my current regimen to see if doing so can improve upon what is already working for me. My regimen would not be applicable to you guys but for the ladies, here is my current regimen:

Spironolactone taken orally twice a day.

Minoxidil twice a day (foam in the AM, generic liquid in the PM).

Laser comb every other day.

Nizoral once a week.

My regular shampoo/conditioner is Aveeno "Pure Renewal" sulfate free shampoo and conditioner.

My vitamins are Nature's Bounty extra strength "Hair, Skin & Nails" multi-vitamin and vitamin D3. Both taken twice a day with meals.

I will be using the dermaroller once a week on Sunday nights. I will be prepping the area prior to dermarolling with Betadine and applying a very thin layer of Neosporin on the area afterwards. I will not be using Minoxidil on Sunday night and Monday morning. I will resume using Minoxidil on Monday evening.

win200
08-17-2013, 10:06 AM
These articles really need to be looked at by the community here. Also, and courtesy of Conpecia, he was able to remember a case from law school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkins_v._McGee



The increasing evidence of wounding theory is starting to pile up....!!! Thanks for the article Conpecia :)

Oh, man, law school flashback... Hawkins is a hugely famous case that's taught as part of every tort curriculum. We always called it the "hairy hand case."

brunobald
08-17-2013, 10:34 AM
What do you guys and girls think of this idea. I have started a mind map for Diy wounding for hair growth on mind42.com. This is a mind map we can all edit to try and organise our ideas and resources. To edit the mind map you need me to add your email you signed up to mind42.com with to the specific mind map we are working on.

We could use this to keep track of wounding devices, links to science papers, specfic compounds that might work as growth promoters, where we might find this?

Its just an idea and there may be a better way of arranging the data we find but we def need something better than a massive thread on a single forum.

http://mind42.com/public/831fd9a5-7dff-474d-8e05-cca45a37b0b3

hellouser
08-17-2013, 10:48 AM
What do you guys and girls think of this idea. I have started a mind map for Diy wounding for hair growth on mind42.com. This is a mind map we can all edit to try and organise our ideas and resources. To edit the mind map you need me to add your email you signed up to mind42.com with to the specific mind map we are working on.

We could use this to keep track of wounding devices, links to science papers, specfic compounds that might work as growth promoters, where we might find this?

Its just an idea and there may be a better way of arranging the data we find but we def need something better than a massive thread on a single forum.

http://mind42.com/public/831fd9a5-7dff-474d-8e05-cca45a37b0b3

COOL!!

Now if only my message to Winston about unlocking private messaging was actually taken seriously, we could exchange emails privately. Eventhough I did mention integrity in regards to allowing the community come together an WORK together, this forum, despite its potential, is GIMPED.

See if you can private message me on Hair Loss Talk, my username there is also 'hellouser'

Thanks! :)

hellouser
08-17-2013, 11:38 AM
Found another article:

Wound healing


Wounds develop when the epidermal layer of skin is breached by injury or infection and the severity increases when the underlying layers of skin become involved. Three steps need to occur for wounds to heal normally: inflammation, proliferation and remodeling. Inflammation lasts approximately four days. In that time the key events that happen are the generation of a fibrin matrix and the formation of a blood clot to cover and protect the wound. Immune cells, such as macrophages, also migrate into the area to clean up any cellular debris and to help prevent infections from taking hold. During the proliferation phase, inflammatory signals recruit many different cell types to the wound, including fibroblasts and vascular endothelial cells. Fibroblasts make collagen and can also turn into myofibroblasts that close the wound, and vascular endothelial cells form new blood vessels around the wound. All this cellular activity makes what is called a ‘granulation tissue’ that is located just below the blood clot. Keratinocytes then migrate to the wound from the wound edges and also from the base of hair follicles. The dividing keratinocytes move over the granulation tissue to knit the epidermis together. This process continues during the remodeling phase and once the epidermis is restored, keratinocytes and fibroblasts lay down the matrix proteins for the new basement membrane that regenerates the interface between the epidermis and the underlying dermis.

Understanding the role of stem cells in wound healing


Stem cells are known to play an important role during the normal course of events that distinguish skin regeneration and wound healing. The skin is home to many different types of stem cells, including epidermal stem cells, melanocyte stem cells (which make pigment-producing cells), and epithelial and mesenchymal stem cells that reside in hair follicles. Together, these stem cells are responsible for making the multitude of different skin cells that are important for perpetually renewing normal, healthy skin. In response to general injuries the number of circulating stem cells in the body increase. Hair follicle stem cells and epithelial stem cells are thought to interact with bone marrow stem cells, which are recruited to a wound during the inflammatory phase of wound healing, and together these stem cells bring about speedy wound closure and tissue repair. As yet, it is not clear whether stem cells from the bone marrow might also contribute to the healing process by actually making new skin cells.


Freda Miller at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto is well known for having discovered skin-derived precursors (SKPs). These are adult dermal stem cells that not only repair wounded skin but also prevent skin from aging and promote hair growth. She and her team are actively searching out drugs, small molecules and genes that can ramp up the activity of SKPs. The idea being that if they can increase the number of SKPs, they might be able to enhance skin repair and maintenance, especially as abnormal wound healing and premature aging have been linked with low levels of SKPs.

The parts in bold are intriguing.

Source: http://www.stemcellnetwork.ca/index.php?page=wound-healing&hl=eng

I might actually try and reach out to Freda Miller as she's in Toronto. Here's some of her research in regards to hair follicles: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19951689

hellouser
08-17-2013, 12:01 PM
Some other worthwhile studies to read:

Dr. Jahoda's paper on 'Changes in hair growth characteristics following the wounding of vibrissa follicles in the hooded rat' From 1984

Source: http://dev.biologists.org/content/83/1/81.full.pdf

Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding

Source: http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-34249106502&origin=inward&txGid=2C84F2255F8F555C8C3AC8CCC0598C22.y7ESLndDIsN 8cE7qwvy6w%3a2

Specific MicroRNAs Are Preferentially Expressed by Skin Stem Cells To Balance Self-Renewal and Early Lineage Commitment

Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1934590911000154

john2399
08-17-2013, 01:47 PM
Has anyone seen any results yet? im on 3 weeks and nothing so far. I guess it takes 6 weeks ?

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-17-2013, 02:14 PM
if you perform it as the study you should see that hair is growing faster but yes i guess you might be close to seeing results but not yet. hang in there
Has anyone seen any results yet? im on 3 weeks and nothing so far. I guess it takes 6 weeks ?

StayThick
08-17-2013, 02:14 PM
Has anyone seen any results yet? im on 3 weeks and nothing so far. I guess it takes 6 weeks ?

Guys, I really do not want to be negative, but I hope those that are trying this "experiment" really don't put all their chips on the table.

I'm not saying you won't experience some sort of possible result, but for somebody who has been doing this for several months, I really would hate for those people to have such big expectations only to be let down once again.

Keep an open mind, but also aware of the fact this may not do anything at all. Like anything else, just give it a try and see what happens

I'm still doing it, but it hasn't done much of anything in 3 months. I'm now drawing blood (never have before) to see if I gain better results.

the_dude78
08-17-2013, 02:27 PM
Guys, I really do not want to be negative, but I hope those that are trying this "experiment" really don't put all their chips on the table.

I'm not saying you won't experience some sort of possible result, but for somebody who has been doing this for several months, I really would hate for those people to have such big expectations only to be let down once again.

Keep an open mind, but also aware of the fact this may not do anything at all. Like anything else, just give it a try and see what happens

I'm still doing it, but it hasn't done much of anything in 3 months. I'm now drawing blood (never have before) to see if I gain better results.

Yes, exactly! I was skeptical when I read the study, but I admit it can be difficult to maintain the skepticism with all the excitement people show in this thread, so very good advice.

Had my second session tonight - a lot more blood this time.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-17-2013, 02:30 PM
you roll deep and apply minox like in the study confitions? how old are you and when you became bald?are you completely bald where you perform it?
Guys, I really do not want to be negative, but I hope those that are trying this "experiment" really don't put all their chips on the table.

I'm not saying you won't experience some sort of possible result, but for somebody who has been doing this for several months, I really would hate for those people to have such big expectations only to be let down once again.

Keep an open mind, but also aware of the fact this may not do anything at all. Like anything else, just give it a try and see what happens

I'm still doing it, but it hasn't done much of anything in 3 months. I'm now drawing blood (never have before) to see if I gain better results.

DesperateOne
08-17-2013, 05:26 PM
3 weeks is nothing, I think we should wait for at least 3 months. This study is getting out of control, people are demanding results before any significant time has been out.

I have noticed that my second time didn't hurt so much as my first. I think it's because my skin got a bit ticker, I don't know.

walrus
08-17-2013, 06:01 PM
Still getting a pretty intense itching sensation on my scalp starting about 5 minutes after I roll, lasting for around 20 minutes. Not that bothersome, but curious how it only happens on scalp and not skin anywhere else I've tried it.

john2399
08-17-2013, 06:07 PM
well didnt that study say that in 6 weeks they saw results?

StayThick
08-17-2013, 06:10 PM
you roll deep and apply minox like in the study confitions? how old are you and when you became bald?are you completely bald where you perform it?

I have applied Minox after rolling in the past, I now apply
Minox prior than wait a few hours because I don't want the added absorption due to Minox sides.

I'm 27 and I'm not bald. I started thinning in my hairline at 19 and very slowly it got worse, which soon progressed to general thinning throughout my scalp. Which is where I'm at today.

I am dermarolling on the corners of my hairline which is kinda bald, but does have some peach fuzz and terminal hair still remaining. It's like the hair is dying but not done 100% and not yet out for the count. It's hanging on the ropes that's why I am doing everything I can before I lose these hairs forever.

the_dude78
08-18-2013, 06:12 AM
Is this only about creating new follicles, or will it, in theory, also strengthen the existing weak follicles?

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-18-2013, 06:16 AM
i believe most the second, the first is the cotsarelis findings but for the first you really need hi tech wounding etc,factors etc .correct timing etc. so stick to the second according to the study... ;)
Is this only about creating new follicles, or will it, in theory, also strengthen the existing weak follicles?

walrus
08-18-2013, 06:38 AM
Is this only about creating new follicles, or will it, in theory, also strengthen the existing weak follicles?

From my understanding, both.

medion1
08-18-2013, 07:09 AM
Here's my last dermarolling session from a couple days ago:

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l490/hellouser/dermarolling/13-08-14-right-temple.jpg

I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned.

Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys who are rolling their forehead/temples and claiming that it hasn't "regrown" any hair, when there was NONE THERE to begin with.

Just a thought...

the_dude78
08-18-2013, 07:21 AM
I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned.

Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys who are rolling their forehead/temples and claiming that it hasn't "regrown" any hair, when there was NONE THERE to begin with.

Just a thought...

I think I remember seeing pictures of this guy's hair and he does in fact have mpb, receding hairline and general thinning. But you are right, this place is full of paranoid guys.


EDIT: Here's one of his other threads with pics.. http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=12390

the_dude78
08-18-2013, 07:29 AM
From my understanding, both.

I hope this is so. I still have very fine, thin hairs where my hairline used to be, so I'm hoping for the miracle.

Tracy C
08-18-2013, 07:30 AM
I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned.

According to the methodology described in the pilot study, you are not supposed to cause bleeding. Just redness over the area.




Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys...

Not really cause that could be said of any treatment so I expect it, especially from an on-line forum that is full of paranoid young guys with minimal hair loss and maximum mental issues. Taking good quality (and consistent) photos every four to six months is really the only way to determine if a treatment is working for you or not.

HARIRI
08-18-2013, 07:54 AM
According to the methodology described in the pilot study, you are not supposed to cause bleeding. Just redness over the area.





Not really cause that could be said of any treatment so I expect it, especially from an on-line forum that is full of paranoid young guys with minimal hair loss and maximum mental issues. Taking good quality (and consistent) photos every four to six months is really the only way to determine if a treatment is working for you or not.

In this case then 1.5mm should not be used because it will cause bleeding for sure because its beyond the epidermis layer. Better to use the 0.5mm and not more than 1mm as it wont cause any bleeding but only mild redness.

walrus
08-18-2013, 07:57 AM
In this case then 1.5mm should not be used cause it will cause bleeding for sure. Better to use the 0.5mm and not more than 1mm as it wont cause any bleeding but only mild redness.

I think that it could actually be variable depending on the part of your head. I feel 0.5 works fine on my temples, but for rest where I have hair, >1mm might be more effective.

chimera
08-18-2013, 07:59 AM
In this case then 1.5mm should not be used because it will cause bleeding for sure because its beyond the epidermis layer. Better to use the 0.5mm and not more than 1mm as it wont cause any bleeding but only mild redness.


The study just says "mild erythema", but at the same time it says 1.5 mm.

Chromeo
08-18-2013, 08:03 AM
The study just says "mild erythema", but at the same time it says 1.5 mm.

Exactly. Anyone using the 1.5 mm will experience some degree of bleeding, I would think. I used a 0.5 mm roller for months on and off, and it only very rarely drew blood. The 1.5 mm roller I purchased a few weeks back causes bleeding every time I use it.

chimera
08-18-2013, 08:05 AM
Dermaroller has been used for ages as a hairloss treatment, but it has never gave the kind of results the study we're following suggest. 1.5 mm has always been considered an extreme lenght for the scalp, and as such, it has almost never been used seriously.

Maybe the reason nobody has ever saw this kind of result is because nobody wanted to go that deep before. And maybe, we like it or not, we have to go this deep if we want those results.

the_dude78
08-18-2013, 08:14 AM
Dermaroller has been used for ages as a hairloss treatment, but it has never gave the kind of results the study we're following suggest. 1.5 mm has always been considered an extreme lenght for the scalp, and as such, it has almost never been used seriously.

Maybe the reason nobody has ever saw this kind of result is because nobody wanted to go that deep before. And maybe, we like it or not, we have to go this deep if we want those results.

And also people have mostly been using it every day to increase absorption, and not letting the wound healing process take place at all.

Chromeo
08-18-2013, 08:18 AM
Dermaroller has been used for ages as a hairloss treatment, but it has never gave the kind of results the study we're following suggest. 1.5 mm has always been considered an extreme lenght for the scalp, and as such, it has almost never been used seriously.

Maybe the reason nobody has ever saw this kind of result is because nobody wanted to go that deep before. And maybe, we like it or not, we have to go this deep if we want those results.

Totally agree with this. The whole reason I purchased a 0.5 mm roller back in the day was because 0.5 mm was the length they suggested for the purpose of enhancing topical absorption. I imagine the majority of others were given the same advice and would be using 0.5 mm needles instead of 1.5 mm. We really need to try 1.5 mm needles for a sustained period to see what happens. I am reasonably optimistic.

Buster
08-18-2013, 08:31 AM
I am NW5 and am taking part in this rolling experiment, but this picture is getting me a bit concerned.

Is anyone else worried that the results to this experiment could be ruined by a bunch of paranoid guys who are rolling their forehead/temples and claiming that it hasn't "regrown" any hair, when there was NONE THERE to begin with.

Just a thought...

But you didn't wake up one day to realize you were a NW5, did you? We are trying to recover the hair we have already lost, as well as prevent it from going any further. And add to that the diffuse hair loss sufferers. If we all waited until we were NW5 to do something about our hair loss the majority of us would be out of luck.

GreyGhost1864
08-18-2013, 08:34 AM
We all here are passionate. The wounding cycle is needed for new hairs. I think 10 days is better and will conform to that after 12 weeks. To say wounding causes tumors or aka cancer. If we did this everyday then I would say yes. You disrupt any cycle over and over then the cycle can change to negative.
Ghost

chimera
08-18-2013, 08:35 AM
This is a pic from the cotsarelis study:

http://postimg.org/image/6kssklpj9/

You wound deep enough, and new follicles get formed (of course noone of us has the means to go that deep, but it shows that we really need to make harm).

Anyway, right now there's this crazy dudes called squeegee and princessrambo on *** who say are going to try 2.5 mm. We should stick to 1.5 mm, but we should also see how 2.5 goes for them.

chimera
08-18-2013, 08:36 AM
well here's the ****ing pic

http://postimg.org/image/6kssklpj9/

chimera
08-18-2013, 08:44 AM
I imagine the majority of others were given the same advice and would be using 0.5 mm needles instead of 1.5 mm.

Yeah man. In fact, if you try to buy a dermaroller right now for hair loss, everywhere you look you wiil find that they say 0.5 mm. Some may say 0.75, others may even say 1.0. but that's rare, and it never goes beyond that.

NeedHairASAP
08-18-2013, 08:59 AM
I wonder why you dont see regeneration in typical fue, if wounding is the key.

I assume its the extent of the wound.

walrus
08-18-2013, 09:10 AM
I wonder why you dont see regeneration in typical fue, if wounding is the key.

I assume its the extent of the wound.

The theory is that it has to be weekly, not just a one off event.

Borealis
08-18-2013, 10:31 AM
I have to say, conservatively that I am seeing definite results. Existing hair is without a shadow of a doubt, noticably thicker and there is definite regrowth.

It's very promising, but just so, so painful :'(

clandestine
08-18-2013, 10:37 AM
I have to say, conservatively that I am seeing definite results. Existing hair is without a shadow of a doubt, noticably thicker and there is definite regrowth.

It's very promising, but just so, so painful :'(

1.5mm roller, or other?

Also, pictures?

Borealis
08-18-2013, 10:39 AM
Yeah, 1.5mm. Just finished my 5th session, time flies eh!?

I will take pictures at the end of the 12 weeks as it's quite hard to notice a difference as my hair isn't buzzed. (I have baselines)

clandestine
08-18-2013, 10:50 AM
Yeah, 1.5mm. Just finished my 5th session, time flies eh!?

I will take pictures at the end of the 12 weeks as it's quite hard to notice a difference as my hair isn't buzzed. (I have baselines)

Okay great. And you're using in conjunction with minox, correct? Rolling once a week I imagine?

And sure, re: pictures. Make some to take some initially, for baseline, or now if you haven't already.

Good luck.

Borealis
08-18-2013, 10:59 AM
I'm using with Minox, except within 24 hours after rolling. Rolling once a week.

I took some baseline photos before my first session.

hellouser
08-18-2013, 11:28 AM
What's interesting is this:

Apparently Follica is working on a wounding device, so perhaps a Dermaroller isn't the best solution and as said before by others is just a poor mans solution. I'm fine with that as long as there is growth.

Dr. Cotsarelis also jokingly said a few years ago in an interview about the wounding theory that this doesn't mean people should go out and use a cheese grater on their scalp. Which is funny because it kind of sounds like he's hinting that that is the kind of wounding necessary without destroying existing follicles.

Also, there was mention that wounding and hair growth does increase with current known compounds. But what is that compound? As mentioned in his later papers, Minoxidil was used with wounding to create new follicles. We know that elevated levels of PGE2 induce FGF-9.

- Does anyone have any source that says Minoxidil induces PGE2 FOR SURE?
- Does anyone know of any substance that specifically induced FGF-9 levels?

There are a couple members on other forums which are about to go BALLS OUT with wounding: 2-3mm dermarollers and more needles (one even mentioned 1080 needles).

Hair87
08-18-2013, 11:48 AM
Can any one tell how much time should we wait after dermarolling session to shampoo the scalp?

walrus
08-18-2013, 12:06 PM
Can any one tell how much time should we wait after dermarolling session to shampoo the scalp?

I've seen recommendations to wash your hair before you roll, this will also soften the skin.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-18-2013, 12:23 PM
if you increase skin elasticity with water it wont be wounded that much, the main goal is to injury the skin :)
I've seen recommendations to wash your hair before you roll, this will also soften the skin.

hellouser
08-18-2013, 01:29 PM
if you increase skin elasticity with water it wont be wounded that much, the main goal is to injury the skin :)

I was thinking the same thing, that softening the skin may not actually PIERCE it.

I just dermaroll on dry skin now.

NeedHairASAP
08-18-2013, 01:42 PM
If study said you dont need to cause bleeding, why are people trying to draw blood?

hellouser
08-18-2013, 01:48 PM
If study said you dont need to cause bleeding, why are people trying to draw blood?

Because at 1.5mm, if youre actually dermarolling thorough, 1.5mm *will* draw blood.

Cotsarelis' study does suggest that deeper wounding may be necessary, so perhaps 1.5mm isn't enough. It is a start though.

StayThick
08-18-2013, 02:47 PM
Hellouser: Keep us posted on your results. It looks like you and I are targeting the same area of the hairline. I'm seeing little sprouts of hair personally, but far to early to see if this will turn terminal.

Hoping I can recover some ground along the hairline. That would be a game changer for me.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-18-2013, 03:11 PM
remember all the key is to wound the cells.

to injury the area. to make the cells get the signal of healing and promote these important stuff for hair follicles ...


so if yo dont hit hard its not a try

greatjob!
08-18-2013, 03:47 PM
I just got my roller today, gonna roll for the first time tonight. Man I hope this can increase my density even just a little bit.

clandestine
08-19-2013, 07:01 AM
Can someone please clarify here.

On the Dr. Roller website, for one derma roller it says: Dr Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each).

One derma roller only lasts for 3 months? I really don't understand.
Would it be better to order from Nanogen, Amazon?

hiilikeyourbeard
08-19-2013, 08:20 AM
can this be done if you're not using minox? what else could it be used in conjunction with? i'm only on fin

luca10
08-19-2013, 08:57 AM
¿cleaned with water after dermarolling head?

traductor sorry

bigentries
08-19-2013, 09:08 AM
Can someone please clarify here.

On the Dr. Roller website, for one derma roller it says: Dr Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each).

One derma roller only lasts for 3 months? I really don't understand.
Would it be better to order from Nanogen, Amazon?

The needles get dull after a while, but that happens to any needle. I don't know if the titanium dermarollers are really better

Tracy C
08-19-2013, 09:27 AM
Can any one tell how much time should we wait after dermarolling session to shampoo the scalp?

I plan to follow the pilot study as closely as I possibly can and wash before I use the dermaroller. It would suppose that there is no problem with washing afterwards if you want to. When treating any other wound one of the first things you need to do is wash the wound. Wounds from dermarolling would not be any different.




can this be done if you're not using minox? what else could it be used in conjunction with? i'm only on fin

If you plan to follow the pilot study as closely as possible with the hope of achieving similar results, you would need to use Minoxidil. You can alter your methodology all you want, just don't expect similar results if you do.

john2399
08-19-2013, 09:31 AM
can this be done if you're not using minox? what else could it be used in conjunction with? i'm only on fin

Im not using minox either, i do use nizoral tho. The study has nothing to do with minox absorption tho, as its all about wounding. We should be fine and hopefully we see results.

chimera
08-19-2013, 09:45 AM
¿cleaned with water after dermarolling head?

traductor sorry


Hey Luca10, I can see english gives you a little trouble, if you need to know anything about this thread you can ask me on recuperarelpelo. I'm soma_72!

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-19-2013, 10:25 AM
nooooooooooooooooooo no no no no stop and restart it now. it is not about minox absortion BUT

minox property elevating pgd2 while the wound heals.


please do it correctly, we dont know that ketoconazole 2% does the same
Im not using minox either, i do use nizoral tho. The study has nothing to do with minox absorption tho, as its all about wounding. We should be fine and hopefully we see results.

Tracy C
08-19-2013, 10:30 AM
please do it correctly...

Hahaha No one is required to do it "correctly". Those who deviate from the methodology of the pilot study simply should not expect similar results as achieved in the pilot study. Folks can do whatever they want so long as they know not to expect similar results.

hellouser
08-19-2013, 10:42 AM
Hahaha No one is required to do it "correctly". Those who deviate from the methodology of the pilot study simply should not expect similar results as achieved in the pilot study. Folks can do whatever they want so long as they know not to expect similar results.

Actually, suggesting NOT to deviate slightly from the study is equally damaging.

If we all follow like ducks to the study than we're all destined to more or less get the same results. If some deviate more than others, we can collect data that opens up a variety of results. Wouldn't it be nice to know for sure what DOESNT work and experiment further until we find a WORKING solution?

I've been thinking of dermabrasian, essentially stripping the top layer of skin, kind of like running sand paper over it until it bleeds and applying any or all necessary topicals to induce FGF-9 for hair growth. Noones tried this approach yet, but WHAT IF it happened to be the right approach?

hellouser
08-19-2013, 12:20 PM
More proof of wounding/healing causing hair growth:

http://www.consultant360.com/content/how-do-you-explain-asymmetric-hair-growth

This guy got a sever sunburn and then grew a bunch of back hair:

http://www.consultant360.com/sites/default/files/images/1107Con_DC_C4.jpg

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-19-2013, 12:24 PM
thats sooo just so



and he didnt apply minox i am sure , just imagine the possibilities on the scalp.

we might be talking of a cure here .RELEASED already and so cheap.


hows your rolls going hell?

hellouser
08-19-2013, 12:31 PM
thats sooo just so



and he didnt apply minox i am sure , just imagine the possibilities on the scalp.

we might be talking of a cure here .RELEASED already and so cheap.


hows your rolls going hell?

Rolling is going fine, not seeing any growth yet other than the couple small hairs around the hairline, but its only a few. I'll be dermarolling again in a couple of days. However, I should mention that looking at my tracking for my shipment of CB, its supposed to have arrived TODAY as it says it was shipped successfully :)

So, I should be moving onto the bigger guns tonight: Minoxidil & CB-03-01! I can't wait :)

35YrsAfter
08-19-2013, 12:36 PM
More proof of wounding/healing causing hair growth:

http://www.consultant360.com/content/how-do-you-explain-asymmetric-hair-growth

This guy got a sever sunburn and then grew a bunch of back hair:

http://www.consultant360.com/sites/default/files/images/1107Con_DC_C4.jpg

According to Sharon A. Keene MD, identical twin studies indicate that sunburn is bad for hair growth on the scalp. I had a few bad sunburns when I was younger and ended up with Actinic Keratosis and had to use 5 fluorouracil, an anti-cancer topical to get rid of it. Please!!!! don't you guys sunburn your scalp. Some sun exposure is good, but be careful and avoid sunburn!!!

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office

hellouser
08-19-2013, 12:39 PM
According to Sharon A. Keene MD, identical twin studies indicate that sunburn is bad for hair growth on the scalp. I had a few bad sunburns when I was younger and ended up with Actinic Keratosis and had to use 5 fluorouracil, an anti-cancer topical to get rid of it. Please!!!! don't you guys sunburn your scalp. Some sun exposure is good, but be careful and avoid sunburn!!!

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.

Oh I'm not suggesting we go into a tanning salon and barbecue our heads or get blasted with UV rays from the sun, I'm only posting the info as evidence to back up the wounding theory.

goldbondmafia
08-19-2013, 01:40 PM
Can someone please clarify here.

On the Dr. Roller website, for one derma roller it says: Dr Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each).

One derma roller only lasts for 3 months? I really don't understand.
Would it be better to order from Nanogen, Amazon?

I am wondering this same thing. Does it last for 3 months if its used daily or weekly?


I want to get a dermaroller but if they cost $40 every 3 months then im not so sure.

chimera
08-19-2013, 02:08 PM
Dude, in ebay you can find dermarollers for like $9 or so.

goldbondmafia
08-19-2013, 02:11 PM
Dude, in ebay you can find dermarollers for like $9 or so.

what if some jackass decided to sell a used one? I don't trust ebay on buying shiet like this or technology lol

john2399
08-19-2013, 02:35 PM
nooooooooooooooooooo no no no no stop and restart it now. it is not about minox absortion BUT

minox property elevating pgd2 while the wound heals.


please do it correctly, we dont know that ketoconazole 2% does the same

Arent you the one that said i dont use minox? So i guess your back on it for the study?

bigentries
08-19-2013, 03:37 PM
what if some jackass decided to sell a used one? I don't trust ebay on buying shiet like this or technology lol

Doubtful, since they come packed and supposedly "sterilized"

I'm sterilizing mine first in boiling water, then dipping it in alcohol, and then letting it sit for 20 minutes in a betadine solution

clandestine
08-19-2013, 03:56 PM
Doubtful, since they come packed and supposedly "sterilized"

I'm sterilizing mine first in boiling water, then dipping it in alcohol, and then letting it sit for 20 minutes in a betadine solution

Where do you buy betadine?

Also, I remember it mentioning betadine and saline(?) or something?

bigentries
08-19-2013, 04:05 PM
Where do you buy betadine?

Also, I remember it mentioning betadine and saline(?) or something?

I guess they use saline solution because it is sold sterile, it is sometimes used to wash wounds

Betadine is povidone-iodine, as far as I know most solutions are sold over the counter

clandestine
08-19-2013, 04:06 PM
I guess they use saline solution because it is sold sterile, it is sometimes used to wash wounds

Betadine is povidone-iodine, as far as I know most solutions are sold over the counter

Okay, thanks bigentries.

I ordered 1.5mm derma roller today, and will be starting Minox when it arrives in a couple weeks.

Tracy C
08-19-2013, 04:19 PM
I am wondering this same thing. Does it last for 3 months if its used daily or weekly?

When the needles are dull, it's time to get a new one. Maybe it's about three months if it is used daily - maybe a lot longer if it's used weekly. I am betting the three months is based on daily use since Dr. Roller's instructions are to use it daily.




I want to get a dermaroller but if they cost $40 every 3 months then im not so sure.

I bought a generic one from Amazon.com. It was somewhere around $10.00 (US) with shipping give or take a few bucks.




what if some jerk decided to sell a used one? I don't trust ebay on buying stuff like this or technology lol

Don't blame you there. I would not risk buying a used one either.




Where do you buy betadine?

It is inexpensive and readily available anywhere and everywhere bandages and other first aid supplies are sold.

goldbondmafia
08-19-2013, 06:02 PM
I bought a generic one from Amazon.com. It was somewhere around $10.00 (US) with shipping give or take a few bucks.

do you have the link???

Tracy C
08-19-2013, 07:07 PM
do you have the link???

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPJBUS0/ref=pe_385040_30332190_pe_175190_21431760_3p_M3T1_ ST1_dp_1

brooks1089
08-19-2013, 07:54 PM
I have relatively long hair with loss at the temples. I plan to target my temples, but was wondering if it would be beneficial to roll over my existing hair for future maintenance/added thickness? Basically, can you roll over scalp that isn't bald? Thanks guys and good luck!

hellouser
08-19-2013, 08:35 PM
I've been reading more about the dermarolling method in regards to the wounding theory from follica, I think theres a lot more to explore but I think it NEEDS to be pointed out that we're very, VERY close to finally cracking it. We just need to keep pushing experimentation with wounding of all sorts of devices. Dermarolling with some wounding with 1.5mm microneedles most likely wont get us anywhere near NW0 but it should help. I think we need to wound more. One member on another forum pointed out this:


For Follica style wounding you need a wound that is deep enough to remove the epidermis and reach the dermis. It has to large enough so that it can't close on itself. The skin faces a decision, "Do I become a follicle or do I become skin?". By promoting the correct molecular signals, the idea is that we can push the intrafollicular epithelial stem cells (Not HF bulge cells btw). Two are known to upregulate this process - Wnt and FGF9.

Which is more or less what mitosis is: cell splitting, but not actually splitting cells in half, but the cells actually replicate themselves. If you cut yourself, cells in your skin should multiply to cover up the damaged area. But here's the problem: we're not doing enough of that at the follicle level!! All we're doing is making small little pricks. I've got a feeling that we need to TRICK our body into making it think it needs to create skin *AND* follicles. Those follicles will probably only replicate where existing terminal hairs are, going back to my observation that hair regrowth always happens in areas closer to existing follicles as those follicles that produce terminal hairs can emit split cells that can replicate their own hair. Which perhaps its why a bald spot is NEVER filled in completely on any treatment, but only tightened up.

I'm sure whatever growth factors we throw at the wounded area will help this, for example the growth factors lilpauly has mentioned from Kane, but safety is key. I'm going to watch *very closely* what happens with the guys trialing this... this could be some SERIOUS SHIT finally.

This is kind of, KIND OF more exciting than Aderans news before they got their funding pulled.

Tracy C
08-19-2013, 08:51 PM
Basically, can you roll over scalp that isn't bald?

That's what I plan to do and I'm a girl so I have long hair. I was concerned about my hair tangling up in the roller but I think I have a solution. I can't try it out till my roller arrives though.

Look up how wigs are made on Youtube. See how the wig maker puts plastic wrap on her head. That should work to keep hair from getting tangled up in the roller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxWs79J4pUY

gainspotter
08-20-2013, 07:45 AM
So from what other just completed my first roll, it is very uncomfortable, especially at the temples, but I don't care about that.
From what I've been reading it sounds as though we do need to roll firmly to wound deep enough so the cells can repair. This must mean no blood is not good enough.

hellouser
08-20-2013, 07:54 AM
So from what other just completed my first roll, it is very uncomfortable, especially at the temples, but I don't care about that.
From what I've been reading it sounds as though we do need to roll firmly to wound deep enough so the cells can repair. This must mean no blood is not good enough.

Yup, mitosis at the follicular level doesn't happen and therefor, no hair. Perhaps elevated levels of WNT may stimulate growth but not to the degree we would ideally want (full NW7 to NW0).

Time will tell :)

Tracy C
08-20-2013, 09:07 AM
This must mean no blood is not good enough.

Just a reminder that the methodology in the pilot study was to roll firm enough to achieve mild erythema. Erythema is defined as abnormal redness of the skin due to capillary congestion. It does not mean to break through the skin enough to cause bleeding. Just say'in...

fred970
08-20-2013, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the reminder Tracy. I said this on another forum: how long before someone really injures himself or get an infection?

We must remain cautious. We should try to reproduce the study. Who knows? Maybe the study is flawed and it will do absolutely nothing. Just some healthy scepticism here.

mmmcoffee
08-20-2013, 10:09 AM
Guess we will know soon enough...12 weeks is a short time to notice results. How long have people been rolling for?

hellouser
08-20-2013, 10:13 AM
Guess we will know soon enough...12 weeks is a short time to notice results. How long have people been rolling for?

I've been just under 3 weeks, with my first session being moot (barely any blood, not much noticeable erythema). So basically, under 2 weeks. Gonna be dermarolling either today or tomorrow.

mmmcoffee
08-20-2013, 10:30 AM
We appreciate all your efforts. I'm personally waiting for the green light from some of you guys before starting to dermaroll

sosa56
08-20-2013, 10:36 AM
Just a reminder that the methodology in the pilot study was to roll firm enough to achieve mild erythema. Erythema is defined as abnormal redness of the skin due to capillary congestion. It does not mean to break through the skin enough to cause bleeding. Just say'in...

Yeah but look at this video with an MD doing the rolling (sure it's already been posted) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuXJbqDlNug

OK so he's doing it to increase growth factor absorption but you see he doesn't look as if he's putting that much pressure on and blood is still appearing and he's only using a 1.0mm roller.

Didn't hellouser say though at the beginning of the thread "You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted."?

hellouser
08-20-2013, 10:43 AM
Yeah but look at this video with an MD doing the rolling (sure it's already been posted) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuXJbqDlNug

OK so he's doing it to increase growth factor absorption but you see he doesn't look as if he's putting that much pressure on and blood is still appearing and he's only using a 1.0mm roller.

Didn't hellouser say though at the beginning of the thread "You will be given detailed instructions on how to use the dermaroller including how often, pressure, time for injury and ideal model of roller according to one of the researchers on the study who has been contacted."?

I think the dermaroller trial is just a precursor to the final be-all and end-all treatment: Follica and neogenesis through deep wounding. After dermarolling is done and over with in 12 weeks, I'm moving onto the wounding theory and going to try and replicate their process as close as possible.

baldnotbeautiful
08-20-2013, 11:19 AM
is everyone still rolling once a week? I rolled every Sunday for the first 3 weeks, but for my 4th session I will roll today instead of this past Sunday and will have given myself an extra 2 days to heal. I thought there was some discussion(maybe another forum) that once a week might be a little too fast and more healing might be needed before rolling again?

hellouser
08-20-2013, 11:26 AM
is everyone still rolling once a week? I rolled every Sunday for the first 3 weeks, but I will roll today and will have given myself an extra 2 days to heal. I thought there was some discussion(maybe another forum) that once a week might be a little too fast and more healing might be needed before rolling again?

Personally, I don't think theres much 'healing' left after 7 days when all youve done is created mild erythema or even some small specks of blood here and there. We're microneedling so its not a full out wound. Wounds take much longer than 7 days to heal, but I know for sure that my anatomy is crazy, I heal really fast so basically any and all damage I've done thus far with my current approach ALWAYS 'heals' basically the next day.

Its not even so much the wounding that generates any potential follicle, its the HEALING process through mitosis and cell splitting when all the required growth factors are induced by your own body. In a normal wound this happens days after the damage to the tissue, and from Follica's graphs, we see that FGF-9 levels induced hair growth 14 days after damage to the wound... I'm fairly certain the wounds must have been fairly large in comparison to the indian dermarolling study with minoxidil, even the graphs shown by cotsarelis indicate a wound deep enough that gets down to the follicle, which is basically where dermabrasion comes in, stripping away of the top layer of skin.

baldnotbeautiful
08-20-2013, 11:41 AM
this past rolling session, i went a little harder than the first 2 times and I definitely felt like my scalp was inflammed/itchy for 3-4 days. I guess thats more than anything is why I decided to wait before rolling again. Hair lookin like crap... :(

hellouser
08-20-2013, 11:44 AM
this past rolling session, i went a little harder than the first 2 times and I definitely felt like my scalp was inflammed/itchy for 3-4 days. I guess thats more than anything is why I decided to wait before rolling again. Hair lookin like crap... :(

Are you shedding more since dermarolling?

baldnotbeautiful
08-20-2013, 11:53 AM
hard to say for sure, but yeah I think so. But at the same time, I've been losing ground extremely fast the past 6months, so more than likely its just the continuation of that.

35YrsAfter
08-20-2013, 12:42 PM
Oh I'm not suggesting we go into a tanning salon and barbecue our heads or get blasted with UV rays from the sun, I'm only posting the info as evidence to back up the wounding theory.

In the most recent edition of Hair Transplant Forum International (a doctor to doctor publication) Nicole E. Rogers, MD summarized a Japanese study that indicates vitamin D3 significantly enhances hair folliculogenesis. She believes that D3 may play an important role in the eventual cloning and regeneration of hair follicles. So some sun is good.

I used to work with a young guy in his mid-twenties who most likely inherited MPB from his mother's father. He is so paranoid about losing his hair that he won't use shampoo and never runs a comb through his hair. You appear to be of the opposite mindset. I personally believe massage, shampoo, hair brushing and micro needling are good for hair growth. I'm going to ask Dr. Cole about a variation of micro needling over the top of ACell gel and possibly PRP.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
www.forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

DesperateOne
08-20-2013, 12:42 PM
Personally, I don't think theres much 'healing' left after 7 days when all youve done is created mild erythema or even some small specks of blood here and there. We're microneedling so its not a full out wound. Wounds take much longer than 7 days to heal, but I know for sure that my anatomy is crazy, I heal really fast so basically any and all damage I've done thus far with my current approach ALWAYS 'heals' basically the next day.

Its not even so much the wounding that generates any potential follicle, its the HEALING process through mitosis and cell splitting when all the required growth factors are induced by your own body. In a normal wound this happens days after the damage to the tissue, and from Follica's graphs, we see that FGF-9 levels induced hair growth 14 days after damage to the wound... I'm fairly certain the wounds must have been fairly large in comparison to the indian dermarolling study with minoxidil, even the graphs shown by cotsarelis indicate a wound deep enough that gets down to the follicle, which is basically where dermabrasion comes in, stripping away of the top layer of skin.

So would you say we would need at least a 2.0mm or a 2.5mm?

hellouser
08-20-2013, 12:45 PM
So would you say we would need at least a 2.0mm or a 2.5mm?

Not yet, there's one individual on *** that will be using a 2.5mm dermaroller. We'll see what kind of results he gets, if any.

hellouser
08-20-2013, 12:48 PM
In the most recent edition of Hair Transplant Forum International (a doctor to doctor publication) Nicole E. Rogers, MD summarized a Japanese study that indicates vitamin D3 significantly enhances hair folliculogenesis. She believes that D3 may play an important role in the eventual cloning and regeneration of hair follicles. So some sun is good.

I used to work with a young guy in his mid-twenties who most likely inherited MPB from his mother's father. He is so paranoid about losing his hair that he won't use shampoo and never runs a comb through his hair. You appear to be of the opposite mindset. I personally believe massage, shampoo, hair brushing and micro needling are good for hair growth. I'm going to ask Dr. Cole about a variation of micro needling over the top of ACell gel and possibly PRP.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
www.forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

How would vitamin D3 be applied? Orally or topically? I suppose topically, no?