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hellouser
08-06-2013, 12:07 PM
There are motives other than pushing a product. They could be publishing a 'miraculous' result to gain citations of their study, attempt to boost their careers, and seek further funding etc.

The reputation of the journal and not just that of the authors is also a factor, ie. how rigorously was it peer reviewed?

Anyway, time will tell.

Probably an Aderans funded project to sell more dermarollers instead of a cell based therapy.

God I hate this fvcking disease.

bigentries
08-06-2013, 01:26 PM
Sure. It all might not work. Just saying that if we don't try it, we'll never know. I ordered my dermaroller a few days ago. Cant wait to try it out !

I don't like that way of thinking "If we don't try it, we'll never know" is the kind of mentality that makes bald people an easy target for quacks

People need to take a more skeptic approach to these kind of news.

That doesn't mean I'm against experimenting with this, I'm going to try it in a few weeks. But we should never stop the critical thinking.
I'm just wondering the reputation of the researchers, if there's is something fishy then we need to uncover it

See the tocotrienols fiasco, they also had a published study, but people acted way too gullible when there were obvious shills pushing the products

Arashi
08-06-2013, 01:56 PM
I don't like that way of thinking "If we don't try it, we'll never know" is the kind of mentality that makes bald people an easy target for quacks

People need to take a more skeptic approach to these kind of news
Nothing wrong with being skeptic. But fact remains, if we don't try it, we won't know. Yeah we can wait for others to scientifically repeat the experiment. But what's wrong with purchasing a cheap roller and try it 2 months ourselves ? It's a lot better than just to sit back and wait.

hellouser
08-06-2013, 01:58 PM
Nothing wrong with being skeptic. But fact remains, if we don't try it, we won't know. Yeah we can wait for others to scientifically repeat the experiment. But what's wrong with purchasing a cheap roller and try it 2 months ourselves ? It's a lot better than just to sit back and wait.

Even if the study doesn't work out in our favor, better absorption of Minox, RU, CB and other topicals will be a nice benefit.

bigentries
08-06-2013, 02:07 PM
Even if the study doesn't work out in our favor, better absorption of Minox, RU, CB and other topicals will be a nice benefit.

Wouldn't more absorption be a bad thing? We want it to work on the follicles, not potentially going into the bloodstream

hellouser
08-06-2013, 02:29 PM
Wouldn't more absorption be a bad thing? We want it to work on the follicles, not potentially going into the bloodstream

Not necessarily. Absorption would be great for minox, it has very few and very mild side effects. RU going systemic would potentially be a bad thing, more or less giving similar side effects as Finasteride.

CB however, is the big one. Even if it hits the blood stream, it goes benign. But CB badly needs to get to the follicle... one could assume efficacy with dermarolling for CB could be as superior to Finasteride as Cosmo claims.

StayThick
08-06-2013, 03:09 PM
Not necessarily. Absorption would be great for minox, it has very few and very mild side effects. RU going systemic would potentially be a bad thing, more or less giving similar side effects as Finasteride.

CB however, is the big one. Even if it hits the blood stream, it goes benign. But CB badly needs to get to the follicle... one could assume efficacy with dermarolling for CB could be as superior to Finasteride as Cosmo claims.

Thinking of dermarolling and using ID's CB. What are your thoughts Hellouser?

hellouser
08-06-2013, 03:11 PM
Thinking of dermarolling and using ID's CB. What are your thoughts Hellouser?

If the purity of Iron Dragon's is legit, I'd be on it like flies on shit.

john2399
08-06-2013, 03:21 PM
this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?

Arashi
08-06-2013, 03:22 PM
this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?

They didn't do it on the same day in the test. Which makes sense.

hellouser
08-06-2013, 03:26 PM
this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?

Side effects can lead to a very high heart rate. Some people don't get it, others do. If I were you, I'd run along with the trial, if there aren't results, I'd then try other means of mimicking the study (more frequent wounding +/- immediate application of Minoxidil).

walrus
08-06-2013, 03:27 PM
this thread is confusing...is it safe to use minox right after using dermaroller?

Probably not advisable.

bigentries
08-06-2013, 04:54 PM
I just got my 1.5 dermarroller with 192 needles, I'll make a test to see how it works and I'm in

But I will wait two weeks, I have a small procedure done on saturday and I don't want any paranoia about side effects from the pills I'll need to take

If I see "something" it means that it works, I tried rogaine foam for almost a year 4 years ago and didn't noticed any improvement back then

Hicks
08-06-2013, 06:56 PM
Is there a general consensus on what the best derma roller to buy is?

A good one??? Hate for a needle to break off in your head.

I'm thinking of starting a Google blog updated weekly with my regimen. Include issues, thoughts, pictures, basically a mini article. These threads are getting big. I don't have time to read them all.

The idea is to damage the area enough so blood would travel to the area for self healing? That's my plan of attack. Absorbing is second.

hellouser
08-06-2013, 07:34 PM
A good one??? Hate for a needle to break off in your head.

I'm thinking of starting a Google blog updated weekly with my regimen. Include issues, thoughts, pictures, basically a mini article. These threads are getting big. I don't have time to read them all.

If you do decide to venture off and post your progress elsewhere, could you please let us know where we can see your results later on? Thanks!


The idea is to damage the area enough so blood would travel to the area for self healing? That's my plan of attack. Absorbing is second.

Exactly, this is NOT about absorption, although other topicals WILL benefit from this as well.

HARIRI
08-07-2013, 12:07 AM
Guys please advice me regarding the instruction issue, some say to use it everyday after minoxidil application, some say to use it every other day, some say twice a week and some say once a week!!! :confused:

I'm quite lost here, please contribute with your expert opinion as I will receive mine next week. :cool:

greatjob!
08-07-2013, 12:13 AM
Guys please advice me regarding the instruction issue, some say to use it everyday after minoxidil application, some say to use it every other day, some say twice a week and some say once a week!!! :confused:

I'm quite lost here, please contribute with your expert opinion as I will receive mine next week. :cool:
A lot of people aren't fully reading this thread or the study as I have said it a few times this is not about absorption, it is about wounding and activating growth factor pathways to reactivate dormant stem cells.

Just follow the study. They used the derma roller once a week and did not apply minoxidil on the day they micro-needled.

That is what produced the results in the study. If after 3-6 months you see no improvement then you can experiment, but minoxidil that goes systemic can be very dangerous depending on your heart health, so I would be cautious about increasing absorption.

PrettyFly83
08-07-2013, 03:09 AM
A lot of people aren't fully reading this thread or the study as I have said it a few times this is not about absorption, it is about wounding and activating growth factor pathways to reactivate dormant stem cells.

Just follow the study. They used the derma roller once a week and did not apply minoxidil on the day they micro-needled.

That is what produced the results in the study. If after 3-6 months you see no improvement then you can experiment, but minoxidil that goes systemic can be very dangerous depending on your heart health, so I would be cautious about increasing absorption.

Bingo!

Hicks
08-07-2013, 04:24 AM
If you do decide to venture off and post your progress elsewhere, could you please let us know where we can see your results later on? Thanks!


I will put a link in my signature or I might be able to do the blog on this site. I'm new to the site and do not know all the features. Thinking of doing Video as well so Google with blog and YouTube might be easiest. Thanks guys!

the_dude78
08-07-2013, 05:18 AM
The patients in the study had their head shaved before the treatment began, is it just me, or did their hair grow a lot in only 12 weeks? And a 40 % increase in hair count, well, it does sound a little too good to be true. I'm becoming more and more skeptical, but I just can't figure out what they would gain from faking a study like this. It is too easy to replicate and debunk so it couldn't possibly help their career in any way.

Axel
08-07-2013, 06:39 AM
The patients in the study had their head shaved before the treatment began, is it just me, or did their hair grow a lot in only 12 weeks? And a 40 % increase in hair count, well, it does sound a little too good to be true. I'm becoming more and more skeptical, but I just can't figure out what they would gain from faking a study like this. It is too easy to replicate and debunk so it couldn't possibly help their career in any way.

Spot on. There's no way you can grow all that hair in 12 weeks.

My conclusion is that they took those pics in a follow-up visit... If you read the paper it seems they had at least one, 8 months post treatment, where patients reported "sustainable growth"..

Now the question is: were the patients dermarolling and using minox during those 8 months? Thats the interesting question here... We should ask the researchers. :D

PS: everybody should read the study before asking dumb questions. And also read this thread from the start!

hellouser
08-07-2013, 07:22 AM
Spot on. There's no way you can grow all that hair in 12 weeks.

Actually, you can.

3 months time is plenty, hair grows about 10-15cm per year, so about 6 inches. In the photos presented they grews about 1-2 inches, right in line with normal hair growth.

the_dude78
08-07-2013, 07:46 AM
Actually, you can.

3 months time is plenty, hair grows about 10-15cm per year, so about 6 inches. In the photos presented they grews about 1-2 inches, right in line with normal hair growth.

I suppose minox will speed up the growth as well, you might be right. I really want to believe this, it goes for all of us of course, but these results are so much better than what we have seen from all the big companies that spend millions and millions of dollars on a cure or treatment. How crazy would it be if this really works? I mean, for a guy with a little thinning this could potentially give him a full head of hair. Well, we will see soon enough, no need for all the speculations, I guess.

bigentries
08-07-2013, 08:17 AM
The pictures are after 12 weeks, probably before they were shaved again to count the hairs

The only picture that looks suspicious is the top pic in the dermaroller group. Remember that is a 12 week growth after shaving the scalp. My hair definitely doesn't grow that long in just 3 months

And they don't describe how they used the dermaroller after hair started to grow again, were they still applying betadine?

the_dude78
08-07-2013, 09:40 AM
The study doesn't mention anything about shedding, but I guess in order to get results like that, shedding must go down. Hopefully some of you guys who have already started, can report about this in a few weeks.

KeepHoping
08-07-2013, 10:21 AM
Anyone using a topical anesthetic with rolling?

DesperateOne
08-07-2013, 11:14 AM
So I read a lot of the thread, and it seems that we might be on to something here. Now I also read the study but what I want to know is this. If we use the roller once a week, and then the next day we use rogain, should we use rogain normally the rest of the week? That is to say:

Monday: Roller and maybe some oils
Tues-Sun: Use Roagain or Minox twice a day like you normally use it.

I saw that video where the doctor is passing the Dermaroller over a guy who is on a chair here on this thread somewhere. So that is the roller that I order, I actually ordered two because I will be using the other for my stretch marks and some other skin issues.

All I can say is we have to give this a try, some of us are so miserable. It doesn't matter how you take action, but you must do it. If you want to have more time to spend with your family, more money to spend on them, and a more relaxing lifestyle, then you need to take action. You need to change your life for the better.

This the roller I got, very cheap too. If it's good enough for the Hair doctor in the video, it's good enough for me.
Derma Roller: http://amzn.to/175RbGD

I will be using a mixture of Minoxidil all %5
Rogaine Foam: http://amzn.to/18aKeVP
Kirkland: http://amzn.to/1ccq8Ar
Lipogaine: http://amzn.to/13GAVgB

Also a Shampoo that is often used in conjunction, I had been using nizoral but for some reason they ran out. so now I will be using renegepure, hope it's good.
Regenepure: http://amzn.to/175RjG7

I also had been reading some posts of DIY PGD2 Inhibitor. So I found this article very interesting.
http://www.bodyhealth-mindhealth.com/2012/03/hair-loss-prevention.html?m=1

I will be trying that out as well with the dermaroller, however I will be using Quercetin found here
Quercetin: http://amzn.to/13kcO3N
I will also try to add some green tea and ginger as well, will make it more of a powerhouse, at least I hope so.

There is another thread in here that say one person had been using it successfully but he had his hair all yellow. Well since I will be shaving my head and will be wearing a hat, I guess I will just have to suck it up for 4 months. I will try to pass it through a filter and see if that takes some of the color out.

DesperateOne
08-07-2013, 11:15 AM
Actually, you can.

3 months time is plenty, hair grows about 10-15cm per year, so about 6 inches. In the photos presented they grews about 1-2 inches, right in line with normal hair growth.

Thanks for starting this thread hellouser, I see you have been keeping a very close eye on this thread lol, you are responding every hour or so haha. Well I do hope this works and time will only tell, but 4 months seems worth it.

chimera
08-07-2013, 11:36 AM
Also a Shampoo that is often used in conjunction, I had been using nizoral but for some reason they ran out. so now I will be using renegepure, hope it's good.
Regenepure: http://amzn.to/175RjG7

I also had been reading some posts of DIY PGD2 Inhibitor. So I found this article very interesting.
http://www.bodyhealth-mindhealth.com/2012/03/hair-loss-prevention.html?m=1


Imidazole compounds (as ketoconazole), and almost all PGD2 "inhibitors" we know (most of them are not true PGD2 inhibitors, but cyclooxygenase (COX) inhibitors) have anti-inflamatory properties. If we dermaroll our scalps trying to wound or follicles, maybe an anti-inflammatory agent could interfere with the process.

Anyway, that's just an idea, no way to tell if is right or not.

DesperateOne
08-07-2013, 11:56 AM
Imidazole compounds (as ketoconazole), and almost all PGD2 "inhibitors" we know (most of them are not true PGD2 inhibitors, but cyclooxygenase (COX) inhibitors) have anti-inflamatory properties. If we dermaroll our scalps trying to wound or follicles, maybe an anti-inflammatory agent could interfere with the process.

Anyway, that's just an idea, no way to tell if is right or not.

well chimera, that is an excellent point and it does make sense, we kinda do need the inflammation to take place in order for this to work. What I will do instead is I will use the derma roller and then one day before I have to use it again, I will apply the so-called(hopefully) PGD2 inhibitor. That way, the scalp is almost all healed and I might get the benefits of both.

So now I will do it like this.

Monday - Dermaroll and also my usual 1mg propecia
Tuesday - The usual twice a day Minoxidil dose, 1mg fin
Wed - "
Thrus- "
Friday - "
Saturday - "
Sunday - " + The concoction of so called PGD2 Inhibitor + Renegepure.

Then just loop it around for 4 months. Does anyone know of the true PGD2 inhibitors if they're using it every single day? I am talking about the ones being used in research labs.

hellouser
08-07-2013, 12:07 PM
^I've got a sneaking suspicion that the skin at the thinning areas has SOMETHING to do with hair loss. Everywhere that I've got thick skin, theres a LOT more hair, but in areas where my skin is thin, I've either lost my hair (temples) or am thinning (very top plus area around temples). I'm going to see if EMU oil and scalp massage can increase skin thickness and bloodflow.

GreyGhost1864
08-07-2013, 12:43 PM
Had to chime in here on my theory. I think Cots new we were close and put us on the witch hunt about PDG2. Remember my theory early in this thread if the inflammation stays present I think healing cannot finish the cycle. I think with wounding the inflammation will eventually go away due to the body excepting the wound and go on its merry way. I think anti inflammatory AKA PDG2 blockers have only given us peach fuzz and mild regrowth. So hence without wounding then your own growth properties will not be activated to heal. Inflammation keeps on attacking so PDG2 may help but it would be counter productive with our experiment. I think wounding turns back the clock and doing it tells the body that the hair isn't a foreign invader because there is a wound...sorry to ramble at work and just had a few minutes to chime in...also I get tingling on my scalp day 4 and 5 after wounding. You guys get this feeling. Feels like something is truly happening....

Ghost

chimera
08-07-2013, 12:56 PM
well chimera, that is an excellent point and it does make sense

Well, I don't think that's really an excellent point, because I don't have any way to prove it. I just said what I think it could happen, but keep in mind that I may be completely wrong. There are indeed those who say that adding a PGD2 inhibitor would give you waaay better results, but we don't know if that's true neither.



Does anyone know of the true PGD2 inhibitors if they're using it every single day? I am talking about the ones being used in research labs.

If somebody knows better, please let me know, but, to my knowlodge, we still don't have any "true" PGD2 inhibitor. We do have cicloogenaxe inhibitors like indomethacin, diclofenac, ibuprofen (none of this proven yet to work), and we have CRHT2 antagonists like the OC and Ramatroban (we still don't really have definitive proof that any of these two work neither).

I don't know what do they use in lab, but everybody using some kind of "PGD2 inhibitor" is using at least one dose per day, at least. As most of these compounds have a not so long half life, I don't think using any of our "pgd2 inhibitors" once a week is enough.

chimera
08-07-2013, 01:06 PM
I really think that, as bigentries said earlier, first things first. And the first thing to do here should be to try to emulate the experiment as exactly as we can. We may experiment later.

DesperateOne
08-07-2013, 04:36 PM
Well, I don't think that's really an excellent point, because I don't have any way to prove it. I just said what I think it could happen, but keep in mind that I may be completely wrong. There are indeed those who say that adding a PGD2 inhibitor would give you waaay better results, but we don't know if that's true neither.

If somebody knows better, please let me know, but, to my knowlodge, we still don't have any "true" PGD2 inhibitor. We do have cicloogenaxe inhibitors like indomethacin, diclofenac, ibuprofen (none of this proven yet to work), and we have CRHT2 antagonists like the OC and Ramatroban (we still don't really have definitive proof that any of these two work neither).

I don't know what do they use in lab, but everybody using some kind of "PGD2 inhibitor" is using at least one dose per day, at least. As most of these compounds have a not so long half life, I don't think using any of our "pgd2 inhibitors" once a week is enough.

I just watched this video, pretty interested. Disregard the stupid website who is obviously trying to get you to buy it from there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czp98lRbke4
Also another one here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtFwCNkCwpA . They say to use it every day.
How cool that you can use this every where in the body. It does seem tho however, that if you use it somewhere else than the scalp, you should be using it daily, or at least that's what I read.

It looks as though you have to use it for quite some time, more than I had previously thought, until it turns very red. I still haven't received mine yet, it should arrive Monday next week. Also, has Spencer talked about this sort of this?

So chimera, there is a few people that think that using the Derma roller with a PGD2 at the same time is a good idea?

GreyGhost1864
08-07-2013, 05:01 PM
We need to increase Pgf2a guys. Inflammation is good it just needs to cycle in Mpb it stays inflammation mode. You youngsters! So you guys block inflammation the key to healing. I will welcome it every time I pluck my head. The only difference is I am adding a Pgf2 agonist D-cloprostenol. You can block pdg2 but I am telling you....we need to focus on growth agents not inflammation agents when wounding. Cheers
Ghost

GreyGhost1864
08-07-2013, 05:05 PM
Just looking in 10x mirror my peach fuzz is growing like wild fire! Got 8 new darkies in my widows peak. They are only 3 or 4mm but are dark in color. A year from now.....keep the hope!
Ghost

Conpecia
08-07-2013, 05:29 PM
Pics Ghost! Make sure all of us take before and after shots.

DesperateOne
08-07-2013, 05:40 PM
We need to increase Pgf2a guys. Inflammation is good it just needs to cycle in Mpb it stays inflammation mode. You youngsters! So you guys block inflammation the key to healing. I will welcome it every time I pluck my head. The only difference is I am adding a Pgf2 agonist D-cloprostenol. You can block pdg2 but I am telling you....we need to focus on growth agents not inflammation agents when wounding. Cheers
Ghost

Ghost I do find your ideas very interesting but very very incoherent. I can not make much sense to what you're saying. I did research Pgf2a and it seems that people are using it mostly in bodybuilding, however I don't see why it can't be used in the scalp. They also mentioned that it's very dangerous, so I guess that's something to consider.

A couple of things I want cleared out from you:

1. You're saying that when we are in the healing process, that is to say, after we use the derma roller, we should be also using Pgf2a?

2. Are you saying that we should not be using any PGD2 inhibitor? Or do you think that should also be added somewhere during the week.

3. How many times a week are you using Pgf2a, also how and where did you buy it? Do you have a link to amazon or do you need to have it prescribed?

4. How do you apply this Pgf2a, are you grinding it up and diluting it in water?

Hope you respond because I just got my pills today that I wanted to experiment but I want to know if I should be adding Pgf2a as well.
Cheers

Bocaj
08-07-2013, 09:35 PM
^I've got a sneaking suspicion that the skin at the thinning areas has SOMETHING to do with hair loss. Everywhere that I've got thick skin, theres a LOT more hair, but in areas where my skin is thin, I've either lost my hair (temples) or am thinning (very top plus area around temples). I'm going to see if EMU oil and scalp massage can increase skin thickness and bloodflow.

A couple of things came to mind when I read that. Vit C: http://elsomresearch.com/shopping/products/skin-renewal.htm


Vitamin C is known as a most potent collagen builder and skin elasticizer, if it can penetrate the skin layers where it can do the most good.

and Dermatopoietin: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=131911c8e031f417&mt=application/vnd.ms-powerpoint&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3Db1de0badf3%26view%3Datt%26th%3D1319 11c8e031f417%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dsafe%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQdNPjhW-vrZEfjHde8mu9O5hvjBg&pli=1

Californication
08-07-2013, 11:12 PM
Is PrettyFly still looking to contact the authors?

If we could get in contact with them, I'd think they'd appreciate the interest the article has garnered and give us some more specific tips if possible on the exact protocol: method to dermaroll, did they use a new dermaroller each week, if not, washed it in in alcohol I'm guessing, duration of dermaroll, how exactly should the skin look.

Most of this should be common sense stuff and we should probably see results if it works without getting in touch, but still getting the exact protocol and methods could only help.

DesperateOne
08-07-2013, 11:17 PM
Is PrettyFly still looking to contact the authors?

If we could get in contact with them, I'd think they'd appreciate the interest the article has garnered and give us some more specific tips if possible on the exact protocol: method to dermaroll, did they use a new dermaroller each week, if not, washed it in in alcohol I'm guessing, duration of dermaroll, how exactly should the skin look.

Most of this should be common sense stuff and we should probably see results if it works without getting in touch, but still getting the exact protocol and methods could only help.

They don't want to talk to pawns like you. We need a medical doctor to talk on our behalf.

Californication
08-07-2013, 11:19 PM
They don't want to talk to pawns like you. We need a medical doctor to talk on our behalf.

Is that what they said? I bet they would be willing to talk to a medical student doing research (aka me or I'm sure some others around here). The fact that we have the same background may also help. I'm not going to innundate them with emails though if someone else is already on this.

PrettyFly83
08-08-2013, 12:17 AM
Hey All

Pleased to say I finally heard back from one of the authors, unfortunately the responses were not as detailed as we'd like but any anyway, here are the questions and responses. Remember I tried to be as nonthreatening as possible as they are using this as a treatment and hence giving away their secrets:

Good Day

Your name was cited in a recent Journal about a pilot study on Microneedling and the positive effects on Androgenic Alopecia.

Are you the correct person to contact regarding this study?

The study was located at this domain:
http://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2013;volume=5;issue=1;spage=6;epage=11;a ulast=Dhurat

Please could you kindly contact me and comment whether you'd be willing to assist with some queries I have?

Many thanks for your assistance in this regard



02 August 2013
Dear Mr. XXXXXXX
I am the right person, who is responsible for the study.
We routinely perform microneedling for patients with androgenetic alopecia including women, getting good results.


Dear Dr YYYYYY

Thank you very much for getting back to me and confirming you are indeed the correct person.

I have a few queries on the treatment which maybe you can shed some light on:

1. Do the results continue improving under the microneedling / Minoxidle regime or is there a limit to the regrowth patients can expect?

2. Have you treated any patients with this regime whilst they were on Finasteride? How do their results compare?

3. What level of pain and bleeding should patients expect and could there be potential damage to the hair follicles if the treatment is too vigorous?

4. Do you treat with Minoxidle immediately after the treatment or follow the studies method of rest for 24 hours? If so, why?

5 Do you use different length needles for different patients or is there a standard length?

Thank you very much for your time clarifying these queries. I look forward to hearing back from you.

Kind Regards
XXXXXXXXXX



07 August 2013
Dear XXXXXX
Ans
1. There was further mild improvement after completion of treatment
2. Now I treat all my patients with finasteride + minoxidil+microneedling + platelet rich plasma. Results are v.good.
3. very mild pain, one or 2 bleeding spots occasionally.
4. We ask our patients not to apply minoxidil on the day of procedure
5. Standard length is 1.5mm for all patients.


That is it for now unfortunately.

I'll try pose some more queries if people would like? Might be good to pose the queries as a "potential patient" to try get more information...

Jens1986
08-08-2013, 01:54 AM
What more do you need to know? The study + the answers you got should be more than enough..

PrettyFly83
08-08-2013, 03:23 AM
What more do you need to know? The study + the answers you got should be more than enough..

Hey Jens, I was hoping for a bit more detail:
1. I was more looking for whether the results continue to improve with continuous treatment not whether the condition improves after treatment.
2. Queried for Hellouser not fully answered but close enough
3. Answered
4. First part answered but no response as to why they do not minox after
5. Answered

Pentarou
08-08-2013, 06:03 AM
Thanks for contacting them for the community, PrettyFly. The information is definitely still useful even if unfortunately brief.

walrus
08-08-2013, 06:07 AM
1. There was further mild improvement after completion of treatment

This didn't really answer the question, which was if the results continue to improve if the treatment is continued.

Edit: PrettyFly83, you already pointed this out.

chimera
08-08-2013, 06:12 AM
So, the guys who made this study own a clinic where they offer this treatment.......?

Right........

**** this shit

hellouser
08-08-2013, 07:29 AM
So, the guys who made this study own a clinic where they offer this treatment.......?

Right........

**** this shit

Whats wrong with them owning a clinic?

bigentries
08-08-2013, 07:40 AM
Whats wrong with them owning a clinic?

Conflict of interest of course

Remember the tocotrienols hype? The study was also done by the main supplier of tocotrienols

the_dude78
08-08-2013, 07:47 AM
Conflict of interest of course

Remember the tocotrienols hype? The study was also done by the main supplier of tocotrienols

Yes, this is worrying.

Arashi
08-08-2013, 07:47 AM
Yes, this is worrying.

Agreed. Still going to try it though but it does make me worry.

walrus
08-08-2013, 07:50 AM
There could indeed be a conflict of interest, but dermarollers are pretty cheap and easy for us to use ourselves. We don't need to jet out to their clinic to try it.

bigentries
08-08-2013, 07:56 AM
I'm also trying it, what the heck, but now I remain more skeptical, my expectations are way lower now

hellouser
08-08-2013, 08:01 AM
PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.

Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.

Arashi
08-08-2013, 08:02 AM
PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.

Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.

Agreed. That's why I'm saying I'm still going to try ;) Waiting on my roller ...

the_dude78
08-08-2013, 08:15 AM
PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.

Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.

Absolutely. I just got my roller today and will begin the adventure this evening.

Borealis
08-08-2013, 08:21 AM
How are you guys cleaning your rollers? Just with TCP or something? I haven't cleaned mine before (done it 3 times) and I'm thinking that might be a factor in why it itches so much afterwards.

hellouser
08-08-2013, 08:24 AM
Thing is, it really depends on the wounding. Cotsarelis basically proves the theory. Perhaps it depends on how MUCH wounding... i mean, maybe the mild erythema is slightly not enough?

For example, that burn scalp victim regrew his hair in his bald spot (temple). Article was back for 1986.

The evidence is there. If this study doesn't pan out, we really should try every angle possible to get some kind of results... or at the very least MAINTENANCE.

I'm gonna be rolling tonight for the second time. Im gonna be harsher than last time. No pain, no gain.

chimera
08-08-2013, 08:40 AM
PrettyFly has clear results, and Ghost is reporting new hairs as well.

Gotta try it out first before we can write it off.

How do we know prettyfly results are not completely because of the minoxidil, when he took that photo, he was one month on the dermaroller, but three months already on minox.

However, yeah, you right, there's no way to tell if we don't try it first. As this treatment has a small time-frame we can easily prove if it works or not, and that's woth a shot.

the_dude78
08-08-2013, 08:42 AM
Thing is, it really depends on the wounding. Cotsarelis basically proves the theory. Perhaps it depends on how MUCH wounding... i mean, maybe the mild erythema is slightly not enough?

For example, that burn scalp victim regrew his hair in his bald spot (temple). Article was back for 1986.

The evidence is there. If this study doesn't pan out, we really should try every angle possible to get some kind of results... or at the very least MAINTENANCE.

I'm gonna be rolling tonight for the second time. Im gonna be harsher than last time. No pain, no gain.

Just tried it on my face, not very pleasant. Looks like I got a sunburn and I drew a little bit of blood. Not looking forward to try it on my scalp. But yeah, No pain, no gain, I'm gonna go for the mild erythema though, and not too much blood.

DesperateOne
08-08-2013, 08:49 AM
So, the guys who made this study own a clinic where they offer this treatment.......?

Right........

**** this shit

It's like you are just trying to find every possible excuse to dismiss this finding. There is real science behind this method, not just for hair loss but for the entire skin. I would suggest you take your negativity else where. I suppose you would of been happier had they said they conductd everything from a garage or basement, SMH.

Bocaj
08-08-2013, 08:50 AM
2. Now I treat all my patients with finasteride + minoxidil+microneedling + platelet rich plasma.

Well...so much for just dermarolling and maybe some minox :rolleyes:

It can't hurt to try...but yeah..now that the clinic is mentioned- you gotta go there for the PRP....

the_dude78
08-08-2013, 08:59 AM
double post, sorry

the_dude78
08-08-2013, 09:00 AM
Found this, maybe it applies for hair loss too?

http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/the-more-blood-the-better-when-dermarolling/msg361/#msg361

bigentries
08-08-2013, 09:09 AM
It's like you are just trying to find every possible excuse to dismiss this finding. There is real science behind this method, not just for hair loss but for the entire skin. I would suggest you take your negativity else where. I suppose you would of been happier had they said they conductd everything from a garage or basement, SMH.

People need to be cautious about everything concerning baldness treatments. It's not "negativity" it's just skepticism.

People tend to claim that we need to have an "open mind" but what they end up doing is not questioning enough. I invite you to see all hypes from last year and see where that attitude ends up

They said they are using platelet rich plasma, that was the hype years ago, people tried it here and other forums, it lead nowhere, I'm still surprised doctors are still offering that thing

chimera
08-08-2013, 09:32 AM
Well...so much for just dermarolling and maybe some minox :rolleyes:

It can't hurt to try...but yeah..now that the clinic is mentioned- you gotta go there for the PRP....

Well, at least in the study they mentioned that they got those results using only minox and dermaroller. What I mean is, they did not try tu sell us the PRP. (At least not through the study).

chimera
08-08-2013, 09:33 AM
It's like you are just trying to find every possible excuse to dismiss this finding. There is real science behind this method, not just for hair loss but for the entire skin. I would suggest you take your negativity else where. I suppose you would of been happier had they said they conductd everything from a garage or basement, SMH.

I do want this to work! In fact, I was the one who bring this study to this forum in the first place (that doesn't matter, if it was't me, somebody else would have done it sooner or later) but I did it because I am really interested in this thing, as much as any of you.

But things like the study being done by a member (or members, we don't know yet) of a clinic where they give this treatment or that the only guy who has reported results was on minox since months before he took his photos just can't be overlooked.

Anyway, I do think you should continue. As you said, there's at least some science behind this. And, unlike tons of other "treatment" out there, this one will be easy, cheap and fast to know if it works or not. Despite my doubts, even I will probably try it.

PrettyFly83
08-08-2013, 09:34 AM
How do we know prettyfly results are not completely because of the minoxidil, when he took that photo, he was one month on the dermaroller, but three months already on minox.

However, yeah, you right, there's no way to tell if we don't try it first. As this treatment has a small time-frame we can easily prove if it works or not, and that's woth a shot.

Correction, minox for 1 month then started rolling. Been rolling for 2.5months now and minox for 3.5. As much as ive researched, minox does not give you a result in 2-3months, takes at leasr 4 for results to start showing. Keep optimistic guys, no point in being negative as whats to loose? 15 bucks on a derma roller that you can use for other treatments? Im keeping this going till end november and only then will make the call!

Bocaj
08-08-2013, 10:25 AM
Well, at least in the study they mentioned that they got those results using only minox and dermaroller. What I mean is, they did not try tu sell us the PRP. (At least not through the study).

I'll post what I just said in another forum on that:

No, I realize they supposedly weren't on fin/using prp(if you REALLY want to question things :lol: ). But what many of us asked in the beginning is- how are they doing now? As I recall..we got a vague response on that, and now we learn what at least one researcher actually does, in a clinic. Sooooooooo....where are THOSE results from THAT combo?

I'm glad there are quite a few trying this out...it's the only way we'll know for sure!

hellouser
08-08-2013, 10:27 AM
^I've got a sneaking suspicion that the skin at the thinning areas has SOMETHING to do with hair loss. Everywhere that I've got thick skin, theres a LOT more hair, but in areas where my skin is thin, I've either lost my hair (temples) or am thinning (very top plus area around temples). I'm going to see if EMU oil and scalp massage can increase skin thickness and bloodflow.

YES! Spencer even touched on this in his show:

http://youtu.be/jYLax0hB9dc


As we lose our hair, the scalp actually gets thinner, but the longer you have hair loss, the thinner the scalp becomes. So by doing this type of abrasion to the scalp it actually increase collagen formation in the scalp and also increases fibroblast and in turn, at least in theory, it also increases hair growth.

Keep rolling and DEEP wounding, skin has three layers and we need to wound quite a bit (but not so much as to rip of skin).

DesperateOne
08-08-2013, 10:32 AM
Correction, minox for 1 month then started rolling. Been rolling for 2.5months now and minox for 3.5. As much as ive researched, minox does not give you a result in 2-3months, takes at leasr 4 for results to start showing. Keep optimistic guys, no point in being negative as whats to loose? 15 bucks on a derma roller that you can use for other treatments? Im keeping this going till end november and only then will make the call!

You're right, to tell you the truth saying something like 4 months for minox to work is a stretch at best. Usually it takes even longer, sometimes even a year or so. What people don't realize is that just by being negative about something like this restructures their brain to think it won't work, and guess what... your body won't accept it the same way and it might not work at all for you.

$15 is absolutely nothing, and even if this don't work, I will be using it on my stretch marks and maybe my face.

One thing that I am worried about is that it seems that everywhere else I look they say to use it daily. Those are for the skin conditions and not for the scalp, but then again, I don't see why it should be different.

If you keep on using it every day, you will just see more inflammation and maybe faster results. Or is the whole point to try and recover from the wound within a week?

DesperateOne
08-08-2013, 10:36 AM
Hellouser how is your progress going? are you still getting pretty good results from the RU and minox?

Are you recording the results with the derma roller?

hellouser
08-08-2013, 10:37 AM
Hellouser how is your progress going? are you still getting pretty good results from the RU and minox?

Are you recording the results with the derma roller?

RU I dropped in May. I'm getting on the CB gravytrain soon.

Dermarolling I just started and my last session I dont think I wounded enough, i didnt get any redness. Tonight I'm going to go ham.

the_dude78
08-08-2013, 10:37 AM
YES! Spencer even touched on this in his show:

http://youtu.be/jYLax0hB9dc



Keep rolling and DEEP wounding, skin has three layers and we need to wound quite a bit (but not so much as to rip of skin).

How do you come to the conclusion that we have to roll deep? In the study they clearly say mild erythema. Just wondering.

DesperateOne
08-08-2013, 10:48 AM
So I have found this youtube channel of doctors who talk a lot about derma rollers and how to clean them and all.

https://www.youtube.com/user/whitelotusantiaging/search?query=derma

hellouser
08-08-2013, 10:56 AM
How do you come to the conclusion that we have to roll deep? In the study they clearly say mild erythema. Just wondering.

Gut feeling. Basically, if Follica could use LIGHT dermarolling for FGF-9, it'd already work. But they've been trying to create a device that does proper wounding. I have a feeling its more extensive than dermarolling.

Bocaj
08-08-2013, 11:00 AM
How do you come to the conclusion that we have to roll deep? In the study they clearly say mild erythema. Just wondering.

I get that from a .5 vibrating dermaroller. I think I may just get a deeper one for this....

HARIRI
08-08-2013, 02:33 PM
Can every member in this thread using scalp roller tell me how many times is he using it a week and for how long per each session? Lets start with Hellouser :D

hellouser
08-08-2013, 02:38 PM
Can every member in this thread using scalp roller tell me how many times is he using it a week and for how long per each session? Lets start with Hellouser :D

I've only rolled once so far, I only got my roller a week ago.

I did it for about 10+ minutes, mainly took that long because I'm a bitch. It hurt a lot. I'd suggest giving at least several rolls across every area on your balding areas. I didnt press to hard either, today I'm going to be harsher on the scalp. Am hoping that this can fill in my temples even a little bit.

DesperateOne
08-08-2013, 07:19 PM
I just got my two derma rollers today. Holly crap did that hurt, it seems that you first need to do it slowly and then somehow it's not so painful. I guess because of the trauma your brain releases some natural painkillers. I tried to use it on my face and well it's so too damn painful there, a .5 mm should be used on the face, but I will be using the 1.5mm on the head.

After doing much research I think I will be trying my own way, I know the experiment said it did it one way, but that doesn't mean theirs is the best way to go. I will also be reporting after 4 months, there is no need to report every freaking week, I will just takes pics every week and put my results here.

hellouser
08-08-2013, 09:11 PM
I just did my second session of dermarolling today... holy crap, its painful and STINGS a lot after. Much like you guys, I too had an odd sensation; watery eyes mostly. My entire scalp is quite red though, more bleeding than last time but not so much as to look like I just went through war (just a bunch of red dots). I pressed harder on the dermaroller this time making sure I was piercing/wounding skin. Fact is, 1.5mm is all you're going to penetrate with a 1.5mm dermaroller. You might as well press hard to make sure youre getting THAT exact amount. If I don't see results in terminal hairs coming in, I may opt for a 2mm dermaroller.

I was thinking of testing the dermaroller wounding method on a completely bald patch of skin in one of my temples but with the addition of a PGD2 blocker, perhaps cetirizine. I'm curious to see what kind of results, if any, that could provide. This of course would be supplemented with minoxidil and potentially CB and keep at only that area.

PatientlyWaiting
08-08-2013, 10:06 PM
YES! Spencer even touched on this in his show:

http://youtu.be/jYLax0hB9dc

Spencer and I feel the same way at around 4:50-5:00. What he says is the exact way I feel about reading these forums. It truly is ridiculous.

Edit: from 4:50 to 7:15...Spencer speaks the same way I feel.

TO YOUNG TO RETIRE
08-09-2013, 01:18 AM
guys sorry please tell me, is 1.5mm reaching the hair folicle to wound it?isnt like 2.5 mm more correct?

how many times a week?

and it works as standalone right? in the past it was believed to increase absorb of topicals but with recent wounding science we learned that cells release "things" after wound tha grow the hair . right?

UK_
08-09-2013, 01:26 AM
This is ridiculous, there is nothing for hair loss, we are all screwed.

bibz
08-09-2013, 03:39 AM
Nope, YOU are screwed :)

chimera
08-09-2013, 04:06 AM
This is ridiculous, there is nothing for hair loss, we are all screwed.

CB MAN, CB FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!...

... unless you're already a high norwood, in which case you would be right, you're screwed...

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 08:32 AM
guys sorry please tell me, is 1.5mm reaching the hair folicle to wound it?isnt like 2.5 mm more correct?

how many times a week?

and it works as standalone right? in the past it was believed to increase absorb of topicals but with recent wounding science we learned that cells release "things" after wound tha grow the hair . right?

If you never used a derma roller then you don't know how much it hurts. It's so freaking painful at 1.5, 2.5 is just out of the question.

I think that what we're trying to achieve neogenesis, new hairs with wounding.

hellouser
08-09-2013, 08:45 AM
^^ With my 1.5mm roller, I went ham last night on the wounding, definitely more blood than last week. I could feel my scalp sting for the next 2-3 hours and even now, nearly 12 hours later, it still stings a little bit (very mild though).

God damn, I want my hair back.

oppenheimer82
08-09-2013, 10:12 AM
began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.

hellouser
08-09-2013, 10:16 AM
began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.

Theres been speculation that inflammation is the cause of hair loss. If this can reduce it and maintain, Finasteride could hopefully be rendered useless (FINALLY).

Next hurdle is to regenerate donor follicles or follicle neogenesis. If we can do that, we can easily get back a full head of hear at normal density within a reasonable amount of time.

Fvck Finasteride and Fvck the FDA.

walrus
08-09-2013, 10:19 AM
began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.

Pictures?

Axel
08-09-2013, 10:25 AM
began dermarolling 2,5 weeks ago and did it for the third time yesterday. bald spots are slowly filling in. slowly, but surely. every kid who starts to bald in his early twenties should do this at once.

How much time have you been with minox before you started rolling?

Also... pics? :rolleyes:

Conpecia
08-09-2013, 10:51 AM
Oppenheimer:

Age?
Age when you started balding?
NW level?
Regimen?
Length of time on current regimen?
Photos?

Answering these will help us in a major way. Congrats on your regrowth. Let's get as much info as we can on this in circulation.

Conpecia
08-09-2013, 10:53 AM
(double post)

hellouser
08-09-2013, 10:56 AM
We know thinning hair happens on thinning scalp. Has anyone thought about getting EMU oil and thickening up the scalp skin as well?

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 12:47 PM
We know thinning hair happens on thinning scalp. Has anyone thought about getting EMU oil and thickening up the scalp skin as well?

There might be something to the thickness of the scalp. When I used the derma roller in my affected area, it hurt like shit, but not so much on regar scalp.

Why exactly do you think emu oil would help thicken the skin? I have some laying around in my fridge.

PatientlyWaiting
08-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Is there a particular dermaroller that should be used for the head? And what pressure do you apply on the head?

This sounds interesting, i'd like to give it a try.

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 01:13 PM
Is there a particular dermaroller that should be used for the head? And what pressure do you apply on the head?

This sounds interesting, i'd like to give it a try.

I put a YouTube link to a channel all about derma rollers in the previous page. It seems that for hairloss we need to use a 1.5mm, you should not apply too much pressure, just enough so the needles go in. You will be able to feel how much pressure you need once it arrives.

I tried also using the derma roller on my stretch marks and face and I would say that it's best to use a 1mm in the face and 1.5 for the stretch marks because of how painful it is. All the places I rolled yesterday are still in trauma and j can feel it, but no pain no gain, so I must be gaining a lot :)

greatjob!
08-09-2013, 01:23 PM
We know thinning hair happens on thinning scalp. Has anyone thought about getting EMU oil and thickening up the scalp skin as well?

If thinning of the skin has anything to do with baldness, it more than likely happens as a result of balding instead of being a cause of balding. Even if you could thicken the skin it is not going to cause regrowth.

hellouser
08-09-2013, 01:30 PM
If thinning of the skin has anything to do with baldness, it more than likely happens as a result of balding instead of being a cause of balding. Even if you could thicken the skin it is not going to cause regrowth.

Probably true but there are so many variables in baldness. DHT, PGD2, PGE2, etc. Its not crazy to think that scalp thickness plays at least a partial role.

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 02:54 PM
If thinning of the skin has anything to do with baldness, it more than likely happens as a result of balding instead of being a cause of balding. Even if you could thicken the skin it is not going to cause regrowth.

Even if its an after effect of baldness, it really doesn't matter. Typically in the body when something happens and you improve the side effects, the overall desease improves.

Take a common fever, your body heats up, yet if you lower your head temperature with a wet cloth you would indeed reverse some of the sickness.
IMO

greatjob!
08-09-2013, 03:05 PM
Take a common fever, your body heats up, yet if you lower your head temperature with a wet cloth you would indeed reverse some of the sickness.
IMO
Dude I don't want to be rude but this shows you have very little knowledge of biology. A wet cloth doesn't reverse some of the sickness or reduce a fever. Temperature is regulated by your hypothalamus and a fever is induced by various interleukin's and prostagladin's in the immune system as a result of pathogens. Regardless of what your mom told you, or how it makes you feel, a wet cloth or reducing your "head temperature" does nothing for a fever or infection, so your analogy is useless.

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 04:49 PM
Sup fellas! Time to pluck my head. Getting rid of scalp med. Ordered promox 15percent lotion. I will post pics in 6 weeks. Hope you guys had a great week and keep going! Also I do not know how to post pics. Let me know how. I have a Windows phone ;)

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 05:07 PM
Dude I don't want to be rude but this shows you have very little knowledge of biology. A wet cloth doesn't reverse some of the sickness or reduce a fever. Temperature is regulated by your hypothalamus and a fever is induced by various interleukin's and prostagladin's in the immune system as a result of pathogens. Regardless of what your mom told you, or how it makes you feel, a wet cloth or reducing your "head temperature" does nothing for a fever or infection, so your analogy is useless.

Umm buddy, you might want to go **** yourself. The doctor told me this and if your fever is really high, it is cooking your brain so putting a wet cloth on your head and removing clothes does reduce the temperature and the fever. My reference was not to cure mpb, but to reduce hair loss.

baldybald
08-09-2013, 05:09 PM
guys, this is not going to work, it is the opposite it may be harmful for your body

chimera
08-09-2013, 05:16 PM
guys, this is not going to work, it is the opposite it may be harmful for your body

It's fine, this is not going to hurt us. We are not the first ones using the dermaroller you know?, I has been used for ages to treat scars, stretch marks and things like that. Some people even dermaroll on a daily basis without any trouble. Also, we're using it only once a week, we'll be alright.

Yeah, it may not work, but first we have to be sure. I am not saying we should try everything out there, but potential treatments like this are worth a shoot. There's science behind it, and if it does not work, unlike many other treaments, this won't take much time, money or health to know about it.

bigentries
08-09-2013, 05:17 PM
guys, this is not going to work, it is the opposite it may be harmful for your body

How could it be harmful? Besides an infection of course

If you don't see an improvement in 6-12 weeks, then stop. 6 to 12 session are not dangerous, micro wounding has been studied and used for a while

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 05:17 PM
Hey baldybald you stay bald and us others will make history. Now you go FO and leave us visionaries alone.

Cheers
Ghost

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 05:22 PM
Baldybald do you work for Follica? Come on be honest? You will feel better just being open. Free yourself...Walmart is hiring. You can be a greeter!
Good luck
Ghost

bigentries
08-09-2013, 05:26 PM
Hey baldybald you stay bald and us others will make history. Now you go FO and leave us visionaries alone.

Cheers
Ghost

Now, that is a really bad attitude to take

I hate the naive optimism in this place. We will not know if the study is legit or not for a while.

Many people have claimed they were making history, and acted like visionaries before. See how everything turned out.
It's disgusting to see people turn into fanboys for the latest fad, Aderans, Histogen, Indomethacin

If you think you are already playing in the "winning side" you start to lose critical thinking and people start to report things they are not really there

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 05:35 PM
Not a fan boy. I have seen many things come and go. I apologize ok. But I can tell you I have not seen this much elongated peach fuzz on my head from any other treatment. Its only been three weeks. This is real....I read an article last week of the pioneer of this treatment. He had all his hair but only used it on his face. He is 70 and looks better than me. I am 40. Is it safe give me a break
Ghost

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 05:38 PM
Not a fan boy. I have seen many things come and go. I apologize ok. But I can tell you I have not seen this much elongated peach fuzz on my head from any other treatment. Its only been three weeks. This is real....I read an article last week of the pioneer of this treatment. He had all his hair but only used it on his face. He is 70 and looks better than me. I am 40. Is it safe give me a break
Ghost

Ghost please answer my questions from two pages before and also what is your technique when plucking your hair.

I want to turn my vellus hairs into darkies as well.
Thanks mate

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 05:44 PM
D.Cloprostenol. Iron dragon. Use only day 3.4.5 after plucking. I use Cappilogain light morning and scalp med night. Next at 445 am capillogain then gym at 630 am and 12 and evening promox. Fridays pluck 1.5 then .5....then do my face with .5. After apply vitd lotion and vitc
Ghost

bigentries
08-09-2013, 05:47 PM
Not a fan boy. I have seen many things come and go. I apologize ok. But I can tell you I have not seen this much elongated peach fuzz on my head from any other treatment. Its only been three weeks. This is real....I read an article last week of the pioneer of this treatment. He had all his hair but only used it on his face. He is 70 and looks better than me. I am 40. Is it safe give me a break
Ghost

The problem is that, many people have also claimed results in the past from basically every other alternative treatment we've heard about

Until we have enough evidence (the point of this thread!) it's better to keep our emotions controlled

Remember one big part of this approach is minoxidil, a proven treatment that also grows hair like crazy in many people.

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 05:49 PM
When I roll from my crown to the front is little red dots. Its easy keep the roller still press down hear the skin pop and keep the pressure and roll slow. You will know you are doing it right when it sounds like pulling Velcro apart.
Ghost

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 05:52 PM
Minox never grew a hair on my head. I am not a rookie.

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 06:03 PM
Another thing big entries. If you are 25 or under I was using 2% minox when you were sucking on your moms tit. It didn't work back then either.
Wounding is the key. I think wounding would work regardless but with it now old solutions actually work....read about neogenisis(spelled wrong)
Ghost

Conpecia
08-09-2013, 06:19 PM
ghost you're dealing with some young dudes who have been dumping god knows what on their heads and down their throats nonstop the past few years. yeah there was minox in the 80s but no one was trying shit like RU, BNP-32, Bim, CB, Cap, OC, KaR, Equol, ramatroban, i/c combo, etc, etc, etc, all to NO ****ing avail, time after time, study after ****ing study that "proves" this or that is the ****ing cure. with the internet and forums like this it makes it easier to spread info but we all end up ****ed and led on wild goose chases and snake oil scams, plus man we're all going bald YOUNG in an age where there are practically ZERO bald movie stars or actors, everything you ****ing do is on facebook and men are expected to be as good looking as women.

we're ****ing sick of shit not working man, that's all it is. i have hope for this wounding shit and i'm onboard fully, there's good science behind it, but us young dudes have learned the hard way and learned early not to get pumped up about anything until we see terminal hairs growing on our god damn heads.

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 06:33 PM
ghost you're dealing with some young dudes who have been dumping god knows what on their heads and down their throats nonstop the past few years. yeah there was minox in the 80s but no one was trying shit like RU, BNP-32, Bim, CB, Cap, OC, KaR, Equol, ramatroban, i/c combo, etc, etc, etc, all to NO ****ing avail, time after time, study after ****ing study that "proves" this or that is the ****ing cure. with the internet and forums like this it makes it easier to spread info but we all end up ****ed and led on wild goose chases and snake oil scams, plus man we're all going bald YOUNG in an age where there are practically ZERO bald movie stars or actors, everything you ****ing do is on facebook and men are expected to be as good looking as women.

we're ****ing sick of shit not working man, that's all it is. i have hope for this wounding shit and i'm onboard fully, there's good science behind it, but us young dudes have learned the hard way and learned early not to get pumped up about anything until we see terminal hairs growing on our god damn heads.

I agree with you man, this has to be the biggest ****ing bullshit in the history of civilization. We are here wasting our ****ing time, when those incompetent doctors can't come up with a legitimate cure, they had over 60 years, wow. Even the freaking nuclear fusion experiments have had more success than this shit.

First it was lowering PGD2, raising PGE2, then that UCLA rat study with God knows what, and now it's this f9g9 bullshit. What we need to do is get some of those genius physicist out of their field, and pay them a shit load of money to finally solve this shit. I am so tired of this as well.

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 06:37 PM
Big entries and Conpecia
Sorry guys lost my wife and mad. Forgive me for being a dick. Us old school guys need to be your rock. So I am here ok. I am sorry...I truly know what you guys are going thru. I wish I could say it gets better but I can say I had 5 glorious years with a 5 foot 10 ex model I was married to that didn't give a flip about my hair. I will load our wedding pictures. She loved me for me. She is gone now but wasn't about my hair. I know this sucks but this may or may not be the answer but I know in my life I will have a full head of hair and so will you. Get in the gym! Take care of yourself and when it comes.... .make your own history.
Ghost

Conpecia
08-09-2013, 06:38 PM
it's just i've become completely objective. i will try anything that is backed by science and is as cheap and harmless as dermarolling, but i'm not gonna get excited about anything at this point. been through it all with these experimental treatments. there are always studies. there are always a few pics showing results, and everything, literally every single one, fails.

i'm not saying this doesn't seem good, it does. but i'm just gonna wait until i personally get cosmetic results before i start singing its praises.

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 06:40 PM
May I also add done needling....so refreshing

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 06:45 PM
it's just i've become completely objective. i will try anything that is backed by science and is as cheap and harmless as dermarolling, but i'm not gonna get excited about anything at this point. been through it all with these experimental treatments. there are always studies. there are always a few pics showing results, and everything, literally every single one, fails.

i'm not saying this doesn't seem good, it does. but i'm just gonna wait until i personally get cosmetic results before i start singing its praises.

Have you experimented with Cetirize and Quercetin before?

Conpecia
08-09-2013, 06:50 PM
neither, but i started the cet thread here and have heard decent things about it stopping loss.

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 06:50 PM
D.Cloprostenol. Iron dragon. Use only day 3.4.5 after plucking. I use Cappilogain light morning and scalp med night. Next at 445 am capillogain then gym at 630 am and 12 and evening promox. Fridays pluck 1.5 then .5....then do my face with .5. After apply vitd lotion and vitc
Ghost

So you're getting the D-Cloprostenol from iron dragon website? How long does that last because it's very expensive like $100 for one bottle. Or is there somewhere else where you can buy this stuff, I found no where else when I searched online, it seems odd that only iron dragon sells it and claims that it's meant for hair loss.

So when you say pluck, you mean to use the derma roller of 1.5mm? I thought you were actually getting some tweezers and plucking one by one.

GreyGhost1864
08-09-2013, 07:01 PM
I like you desperate one. I am a Norwood 6 so using 3 days a week will last me a month if you are a 2 or 3. Last you at least 3 months. Plucking is southern humor. Dermarolling....so. Will change to 15% promos when it comes in. A year from now when my ex wife is done looking around. I will be a 6foot 3 inch beast at 215 pounds at 10 percent body fat and a solid Norwood 3.
I ****ing guarantee it. I will have my moment and so will you!

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 07:15 PM
I like you desperate one. I am a Norwood 6 so using 3 days a week will last me a month if you are a 2 or 3. Last you at least 3 months. Plucking is southern humor. Dermarolling....so. Will change to 15% promos when it comes in. A year from now when my ex wife is done looking around. I will be a 6foot 3 inch beast at 215 pounds at 10 percent body fat and a solid Norwood 3.
I ****ing guarantee it. I will have my moment and so will you!

15% promos when it comes in?

So you are saying that Iron dragon is your site, FFS dude.

Conpecia
08-09-2013, 09:48 PM
15% promos when it comes in?

So you are saying that Iron dragon is your site, FFS dude.

he meant to say promox not promos

doinmyheadin
08-09-2013, 10:00 PM
Thats funny I can post in this section of the forum but when I go to post in the "Hair Transplant Results By IAHRS Recommended Surgeons" it says something about waiting for moderators to approve post before it shows up.

Very interesting............

DesperateOne
08-09-2013, 10:46 PM
Thats funny I can post in this section of the forum but when I go to post in the "Hair Transplant Results By IAHRS Recommended Surgeons" it says something about waiting for moderators to approve post before it shows up.

Very interesting............

Well where do you think the money comes from, the surgeons. If you say anything stupid, it will hurt the money influx. Makes sense to me at least.

hellouser
08-10-2013, 12:24 AM
How could it be harmful? Besides an infection of course

If you don't see an improvement in 6-12 weeks, then stop. 6 to 12 session are not dangerous, micro wounding has been studied and used for a while

Unless your sharing your dermaroller, you can't infect yourself.

hellouser
08-10-2013, 01:13 AM
Watch this video on a doctor performing a dermarolling session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNe2_9YJXs

Interesting how this doctor 'butchers' the girls face, theres quite a lot of blood. But notice that he says 'mild erythema'. If thats mild, then thats basically the amount of wounding we need to do. Like I said guys, my gut feeling tells me we need to be aggressive. Small amounts of blood here and there imo probably means not enough of the job is being done.

How hilarious would it be if we figured out that significant dermarolling like this with Minoxidil was the answer and we, on the forums, basically put Follica out of business before they could even finish a Phase II study? LOL! I wonder if anyone from the Follica team is reading this. I hope theyre shitting bricks.. Sink or swim, bitches. We want a cure now.

luca10
08-10-2013, 01:36 AM
I do it until I leave a little blood, watching the results I have to wait two months to start seeing something?

ps: sorry if you do not understand much'm using the translator.

SOTF
08-10-2013, 01:55 AM
Oh, right. Where is that "Staythick" guy claiming bleeding was just pressing way, way too hard.

Yeah, exactly. To justify the use of a 1.5mm roller you need to press firmly to get more than .75mm penetration. This means BLOOD and PAIN. Deal with it or don't do it.

clandestine
08-10-2013, 05:58 AM
I do it until I leave a little blood, watching the results I have to wait two months to start seeing something?

ps: sorry if you do not understand much'm using the translator.

You'll probably need to wait a couple months, yes. Results do not happen immediately.

Conpecia
08-10-2013, 06:24 AM
i've been thinking about the clinic that provided the study we're going off. surely they would have anticipated the notion that all of us would use their method without them being able to profit from it, right? i think that puts my mind at ease regarding the authenticity and purpose of the study...

Conpecia
08-10-2013, 06:32 AM
How hilarious would it be if we figured out that significant dermarolling like this with Minoxidil was the answer and we, on the forums, basically put Follica out of business before they could even finish a Phase II study? LOL! I wonder if anyone from the Follica team is reading this. I hope theyre shitting bricks.. Sink or swim, bitches. We want a cure now.

what have i been saying for the past 6 months?! significant treatments WILL come from the FORUMS. i have no clue why those histogen and aderans threads ever get updated beyond official updates put out by those companies themselves. collectively we know as much as they do about mpb and we have ZERO legal hurdles or FDA trials. are we batshit crazy to pop every pill and bathe in every topical? yes! but we don't have years to sit around and wait for follica to snail along to a cure.

that being said, i still think we should maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. we have science behind this, it's cheap, it's safe, and we're getting good reports on results from a couple guys, but remember: we've been in this exact position before a million times. let's just wait and see.

GreyGhost1864
08-10-2013, 06:38 AM
Guys sorry about my remarks. Hell man your question about thinning of the skin comes from the lack of collagen. More we roll the more collagen is produced hence thickening of the scalp skin. Just my thoughts
Ghost

gainspotter
08-10-2013, 07:02 AM
Hi all,

I have been lurking this site for a while now, and after coming across this thread I had to join and hop on the derma rolling wagon.
I am a nw 2 at the moment, looking to fill in my temples and crown.
My method will be 1.5 d.r, minox once a day, and nizoral/eclipta alba oil every 3 days.
I remember my bro had bad acne on his forehead in his teens and the dermaroller worked wonders, furthermore he has a perfect hairline eventhough he has a solar panel showing at the back.
Probably wishful thinking but maybe the derma roller saved his hairline as he was very thorough in the areas he treated. Who knows.
I still remain skeptical but can't help feeling rather hopeful as well.
Ill take updated photos weekly and report my progress.
Nice to be part of a forum that cares.

Conpecia
08-10-2013, 07:23 AM
Hi all,

I have been lurking this site for a while now, and after coming across this thread I had to join and hop on the derma rolling wagon.
I am a nw 2 at the moment, looking to fill in my temples and crown.
My method will be 1.5 d.r, minox once a day, and nizoral/eclipta alba oil every 3 days.
I remember my bro had bad acne on his forehead in his teens and the dermaroller worked wonders, furthermore he has a perfect hairline eventhough he has a solar panel showing at the back.
Probably wishful thinking but maybe the derma roller saved his hairline as he was very thorough in the areas he treated. Who knows.
I still remain skeptical but can't help feeling rather hopeful as well.
Ill take updated photos weekly and report my progress.
Nice to be part of a forum that cares.


welcome gain, good luck and please keep us updated. interesting about your bro keep his hairline but losing at the crown. who knows? i guess we'll all find out soon enough if this is legit.

the_dude78
08-10-2013, 07:27 AM
Guys sorry about my remarks. Hell man your question about thinning of the skin comes from the lack of collagen. More we roll the more collagen is produced hence thickening of the scalp skin. Just my thoughts
Ghost

GreyGhost, I appreciate your inputs! Any thoughts on whether Nizoral, with its anti-inflammatory abilities, could hinder the process?

Conpecia
08-10-2013, 07:43 AM
GreyGhost, I appreciate your inputs! Any thoughts on whether Nizoral, with its anti-inflammatory abilities, could hinder the process?

i'm wondering this too about pgd2 blockers.

i think i'm gonna start doing i/c combo once a week, after i've fully healed from one rolling session but a few days before the next session.

GreyGhost1864
08-10-2013, 08:20 AM
Guys I have no clue. Biz never did anything for me. Minox and fin never did. Only thing that ever worked for me was zix. It regrew my crown but I quit when I got married. Turned our sheets yellow. Women **** them! Now what am I! Just a bald ****
Ghost

DesperateOne
08-10-2013, 09:01 AM
Guys I have no clue. Biz never did anything for me. Minox and fin never did. Only thing that ever worked for me was zix. It regrew my crown but I quit when I got married. Turned our sheets yellow. Women **** them! Now what am I! Just a bald ****
Ghost

When you say zix, do you mean Lecithin? Because it has been posted that it works wonders but it turn everything yellow, I have used it for two days and sure enough, all my sheets are bright yellow, including my scalp which not even with a shower did it remove all. That's how things usually go in the nutrition field, the most beneficial food are very saturated with color. These include blueberries, beets, pomegranates and a few others to name a few.

I will just be using Lecithin and Cyrtec for 5 months and see if that helps, I will only be using the derma roller to make them absorb better. I tried it yesterday and sure enough, the Lecithin absorbed way better and I felt a bit of tingling on my scalp.

I would try your method Ghost, but I am broke as hell, damn I hate having no money and those things you mention cost a shit load of money.

GreyGhost1864
08-10-2013, 10:28 AM
I forgot you Gus are young. Just go to hlh in search type in Zix and Zix2. Going to bed cheers
Ghost

DesperateOne
08-10-2013, 11:27 AM
I forgot you Gus are young. Just go to hlh in search type in Zix and Zix2. Going to bed cheers
Ghost

Ghost, be a pal and send your fellow norwood some of your stuff as a gift :D

bigentries
08-10-2013, 12:02 PM
Unless your sharing your dermaroller, you can't infect yourself.

Of course you can infect yourself. There is a reason why they used betadine in the study. Even when you have an sterilized equipment, the skin and room where you are needling need to be clean

Now add that most of us will be using the same equipment several times, with varying degrees of sterilization, and an infection turns into a possibility. There is a reason why needles (even subcutaneous) need to be used only once

john2399
08-10-2013, 03:27 PM
Are you guys really drawing blood from this shit? The pain is too much holy shit....those fuken needles...this stupid fukenn disease.

Axel
08-10-2013, 03:43 PM
Guys look at this woman how she's making the rollin procedure in a man's face...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZm_eN9LCE

Have you seen? 1.5mm roller... and loads of blood! NO PAIN NO GAIN!

It seems she has a lot of practice! She could earn a lot if she'd start to do it on our scalps... :D

Thinning87
08-10-2013, 04:54 PM
What's the benefit of doing it to your face

chimera
08-10-2013, 05:04 PM
What's the benefit of doing it to your face

A treatment for acne scars, premature wrinkles and solar scars.

hellouser
08-10-2013, 06:36 PM
It needs to be pointed out that the study's mild erythema should not be considered as the same wounding which is what Dr. Cotsarelis' theory is based on. It'd be very presumptuous to say this study's dermarolling 'wounding' is the same as Follica's approach. We don't even know if it requires even more vigorous dermarolling and puncturing of the skin. Let's just go by what the study did, and see the results and THEN experiment.

Unless, if anyone is brave enough to go further than the study and wound once a week but using a 2.00mm or higher dermaroller. The results should be interesting if in fact we are releasing WNT proteins from this method.

I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding.

DesperateOne
08-10-2013, 07:04 PM
Guys look at this woman how she's making the rollin procedure in a man's face...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZm_eN9LCE

Have you seen? 1.5mm roller... and loads of blood! NO PAIN NO GAIN!

It seems she has a lot of practice! She could earn a lot if she'd start to do it on our scalps... :D

I tried it on my face with a 1.5mm and it's impossible. It hurts so ****ign much, that guy in the video is taking it like a man. It is kinda retarded because all the studies to induce collagen say that you only need a .5mm a 1mm at most.

That looks painful as hell, anyways, I tried it on my stretch marks the other day with a 1.5mm and I have been sore ever since. I did notice that the color got better, so I guess the pain was worth it.

HARIRI
08-10-2013, 10:59 PM
I tried it on my face with a 1.5mm and it's impossible. It hurts so ****ign much, that guy in the video is taking it like a man. It is kinda retarded because all the studies to induce collagen say that you only need a .5mm a 1mm at most.

That looks painful as hell, anyways, I tried it on my stretch marks the other day with a 1.5mm and I have been sore ever since. I did notice that the color got better, so I guess the pain was worth it.

There is NO F***ING way that I will dare to use it on my face, screw wrinkles. Id rather inject Botox than that. I can tolerate the pain with my thick scalp but never with my fine facial skin. Women can do the impossible to reach high beauty levels. You cant believe how many invasive plastic surgeries Korean girls do these days even if takes forever :eek::eek::eek:

rdawg
08-10-2013, 11:02 PM
I'm still curious as to what this could be like if we go our hands on FGF-9 and injected ourself with it using a diabetic needle AFTER the wounding.

We really need to know how safe that is. You dont want to inject something and then find out it can cause side effects that could get extreme.

HARIRI
08-10-2013, 11:11 PM
We really need to know how safe that is. You dont want to inject something and then find out it can cause side effects that could get extreme.

I would never apply any topical if its NOT FDA approved because if anything goes wrong with me, nobody would ever care. Cant really play with chemicals, when RU or CB become official and sold at local pharmacies that's the time I would get them. That is what Spencer Kobren keeps saying in every Bald Truth show. Just a thought to share. :confused:

baldybald
08-11-2013, 05:37 AM
When u make holes on your head and apply minox means it will go in to your blood, and that is not safe, trust me this is useless

walrus
08-11-2013, 06:36 AM
trust me this is useless

Is that your opinion or do you have any evidence?

chimera
08-11-2013, 06:57 AM
When u make holes on your head and apply minox means it will go in to your blood, and that is not safe, trust me this is useless

What do you think about the study? I do have my doubts...

Tracy C
08-11-2013, 07:22 AM
This is an interesting video about Microneedles and Minoxidil on You Tube:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc

The person in this video clearly does not have MPB.

One important question that comes to mind is how does a person with long hair use a dermaroller without getting her hair tangled up in the dermaroller?

Borealis
08-11-2013, 09:26 AM
Does rolling every 6 days instead of 7 make a difference?

hellouser
08-11-2013, 09:36 AM
The person in this video clearly does not have MPB.

One important question that comes to mind is how does a person with long hair use a dermaroller without getting her hair tangled up in the dermaroller?

He was a Norwood 4 before.

hellouser
08-11-2013, 09:38 AM
Does rolling every 6 days instead of 7 make a difference?

Probably not, everyone's anatomy is different though, some will wound and heal faster than others. I'm dermarolling every 6 day myself.

Pentarou
08-11-2013, 09:50 AM
What do you think about the study? I do have my doubts...
I'd be far less... Sceptical... if there were other studies with broadly the same or similar results, TBH.

I think we as a community need to put together beginners' guide to DIY derma rolling, incidentally. One as conservative and unrisky as possible.

john2399
08-11-2013, 11:03 AM
The person in that video def has toppic in.

GreyGhost1864
08-11-2013, 11:22 AM
Guys quit beating a dead horse. In 12 weeks we will all know if this is a good thing. Cost me 20 bucks and some pain. I can feel new stubble in the crown. I think in a couple of weeks my pics will show change. Just do it!
Ghost

Borealis
08-11-2013, 11:27 AM
For those who remember me moaning about incredible itching afterwards, I mentioned I thought it may be because I wasn't properly cleaning my dermaroller. Well I cleaned it with antiseptic earlier today and after using it the itching is nowhere near as bad.

greatjob!
08-11-2013, 11:37 AM
When u make holes on your head and apply minox means it will go in to your blood, and that is not safe, trust me this is useless

Can everyone please read the study and/or this entire thread before making misinformed comments like this one. Myself and other posters have repeated this a million times already, read the study!!

This in not about absorption it's about wounding, activating growth pathways, and hopefully reactivating dormant stem cells. I repeat this is not about minoxidil absorption, that is why you don't use minox on the day you microneddle!!!!!!!

For f*ck sake this forum is like screaming at a wall, a very very retarded wall.

hellouser
08-11-2013, 11:42 AM
Can everyone please read the study and/or this entire thread before making misinformed comments like this one. Myself and other posters have repeated this a million times already, read the study!!

This in not about absorption it's about wounding, activating growth pathways, and hopefully reactivating dormant stem cells. I repeat this is not about minoxidil absorption, that is why you don't use minox on the day you microneddle!!!!!!!

For f*ck sake this forum is like screaming at a wall, a very very retarded wall.

Ignore him, he works for Merck.

baldybald
08-11-2013, 12:00 PM
Ignore him, he works for Merck.

oh yeah i work for them, you did not know that!! good luck with that dermaroller thing. i really hope will work, but no, trust me. do not listen to me and keep rolling bro, but when you believe me after few months come back and say hey baldybald you are right;)

baldybald
08-11-2013, 12:01 PM
and am out from this topic

ChrisM
08-11-2013, 12:02 PM
I use the derma roller at least 3 times a week. From my experience where my results with Fin and Dutasteride the Minoxidil must be applied right after the rolling is done so that the Minoxidil can work into the deteriorated roots of the scalp to work underneath and have greater access to boost hair regrowth. Waiting for long period to then use the Minoxidil and the micro incisions heal back up and the treatment becomes just as effective or ineffective as before the incisions. Do it too deep or with too many repetitions and you have tissue scarring on the scalp that makes the follicle shaft less retrievable to make any positive changes.

hellouser
08-11-2013, 12:02 PM
and am out from this topic

Goodbye.

greatjob!
08-11-2013, 12:09 PM
I use the derma roller at least 3 times a week. From my experience where my results with Fin and Dutasteride the Minoxidil must be applied right after the rolling is done so that the Minoxidil can work into the deteriorated roots of the scalp to work underneath and have greater access to boost hair regrowth. Waiting for long period to then use the Minoxidil and the micro incisions heal back up and the treatment becomes just as effective or ineffective as before the incisions. Do it too deep or with too many repetitions and you have tissue scarring on the scalp that makes the follicle shaft less retrievable to make any positive changes.

OMG!!

Go up and read my post #420, and then go and read the study!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not about minox absorption and you are more than likely using the derma roller too frequently

GreyGhost1864
08-11-2013, 12:10 PM
Hellouser he works for follica. Lol....not Merck. Do not let the weak and jaded ruin this for use. Keep going men! What we do in life echoes in eternity!
Ghost

rdawg
08-11-2013, 12:11 PM
OMG!!

Go up and read my post #420, and then go and read the study!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not about minox absorption and you are more than likely using the derma roller too frequently

This is what I read as well.

we aren't supposed to apply min right after dermarolling, min does not need any more helping getting through the skin. Small chance you could do more harm then good.

ChrisM
08-11-2013, 12:52 PM
This is what I read as well.

we aren't supposed to apply min right after dermarolling, min does not need any more helping getting through the skin. Small chance you could do more harm then good.

Actually no I will be posting pictures soon.. so no damage has been done that I can detect.. there is significant hair regrowth is in all the balding areas and I am a NW5 gravitating towards an NW6 that I have been using the derma roller although these hairs are graying. Secondly I am not pressing down on the roller so hard as to draw blood that's number one. And number two I might roll on the affected areas maybe 7 to 8 times in a cross hatch formation. I followed my initial instructions on how to use the derma roller before this trial or this post even came on this board from here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc and this guy has been helping people with his youtube videos for a long time and he reviews pretty much every product out there in terms of its effectiveness that he has used to combat his own MPB and restore his hairline.

hellouser
08-11-2013, 12:58 PM
Actually no I will be posting pictures soon.. so no damage has been done that I can detect.. there is significant hair regrowth is in all the balding areas and I am a NW5 gravitating towards an NW6 that I have been using the derma roller although these hairs are graying. Secondly I am not pressing down on the roller so hard as to draw blood that's number one. And number two I might roll on the affected areas maybe 7 to 8 times in a cross hatch formation. I followed my initial instructions on how to use the derma roller before this trial or this post even came on this board from here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gecBiXSogxc and this guy has been helping people with his youtube videos for a long time and he reviews pretty much every product out there in terms of its effectiveness that he has used to combat his own MPB and restore his hairline.

The video you linked has been posted twice already in this thread and debunked as it doesnt follow the study. Even they guy himself in the video says there may be a bit of blood.

Basically, both you and him are doing it wrong.

the_dude78
08-11-2013, 01:07 PM
About cleaning the scalp... I wash my hair and scalp thoroughly and then use a dropper to apply chlorhexidine to the scalp. I have no bald spots, just thinning which makes it difficult to reach the scalp. Do you guys think washing and using chlorhexidine is enough?

csoul
08-11-2013, 01:34 PM
About cleaning the scalp... I wash my hair and scalp thoroughly and then use a dropper to apply chlorhexidine to the scalp. I have no bald spots, just thinning which makes it difficult to reach the scalp. Do you guys think washing and using chlorhexidine is enough?

The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.

johnnynohair
08-11-2013, 01:34 PM
Ow! God****ingdamnit.

Hurts, doesn't it.

the_dude78
08-11-2013, 02:06 PM
The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.


Yeah I saw that, but I have chlorhixidine and was wondering if that was enough. I will use betadine saline solution next time, just to be safe.

Brock Landers
08-11-2013, 02:10 PM
Ok....I'm trying this.

What's the general consensus. I see that most people are using 192 needles.

Should I buy Titanium or stainless steel? Does it matter? Can Pretty Fly ask the researchers what is the exact composition of the dermaroller they used?

Thanks!

ChrisM
08-11-2013, 06:04 PM
The video you linked has been posted twice already in this thread and debunked as it doesnt follow the study. Even they guy himself in the video says there may be a bit of blood.

Basically, both you and him are doing it wrong.

How does that mean I am doing it wrong because a video was posted twice before ? The dude has his hair back to an NW1 . This is a study and it is not conclusive by any means...secondly I am getting results with Dut, Fin and the dermaroller more than under more than an entire year on Finasteride, Nizoral and Minoxidil which did both jack and shit so I really don't know what you are talking about. Why am I wasting my time talking you about it ? If it works for me I won't have to be on this site much longer anyway and I will leave you to your can't or you are doing this wrong or the negativity you espouse.

hellouser
08-11-2013, 06:06 PM
How does that mean I am doing it wrong because a video was posted twice before ? The dude has his hair back to an NW1 . This is a study and it is not conclusive by any means...secondly I am getting results with Dut, Fin and the dermaroller more than under more than an entire year on Finasteride, Nizoral and Minoxidil which did both jack and shit so I really don't know what you are talking about. Why am I wasting my time talking you about it ? If it works for me I won't have to be on this site much longer anyway and I will leave you to your can't or you are doing this wrong or the negativity you espouse.

Because youre under the impression this is about just absorption, rather than wounding. Greatjob! corrected you on it as well.

Conpecia
08-11-2013, 07:14 PM
hell: if he's getting results then it's working somehow, regardless of the theory. remember, none of us knows whether using minox more often is actually more beneficial or less beneficial than refraining on the dermarolling day. technically, chris is not following the study. but it's just as possible that he is outdoing the study.

keep in mind that the dude who has posted pics in this thread (stayfly) was applying minox directly after dermarolling. we just need time to figure out the best method.

chimera
08-11-2013, 07:18 PM
How does that mean I am doing it wrong because a video was posted twice before ? The dude has his hair back to an NW1 . This is a study and it is not conclusive by any means...secondly I am getting results with Dut, Fin and the dermaroller more than under more than an entire year on Finasteride, Nizoral and Minoxidil which did both jack and shit so I really don't know what you are talking about. Why am I wasting my time talking you about it ? If it works for me I won't have to be on this site much longer anyway and I will leave you to your can't or you are doing this wrong or the negativity you espouse.

ChrisM, could you be a little more specific about your treatment?, what did you used?, how long did you used it?, what are you doing now? and since when?

Tracy C
08-11-2013, 07:30 PM
He was a Norwood 4 before.

No way. That guy was never a Norwood IV. He has no signs of ever having any degree of MPB at all.




I'd be far less... Sceptical... if there were other studies with broadly the same or similar results, TBH.

This is far from a good study. It was far too short to make any meaningful conclusions. But the idea is interesting to me. I would try it myself if I were not worried about getting my hair tangled up in the roller. I would do it once a week though. Probably on Sunday nights.

Conpecia
08-11-2013, 07:41 PM
No way. That guy was never a Norwood IV. He has no signs of ever having any degree of MPB at all.

http://www.hairlossfromsteroids.com

he most certainly was losing his hair.

Tracy C
08-11-2013, 07:44 PM
he most certainly was suffering from mpb.

Hair loss induced by drug use is not MPB.

Tracy C
08-11-2013, 07:46 PM
You changed your post the same time I responded to what you originally said.

The point is that you cannot use a person who never had MPB as a useable example when talking about a possible treatment for MPB.

chimera
08-11-2013, 07:50 PM
No way. That guy was never a Norwood IV. He has no signs of ever having any degree of MPB at all.

He had a transplant already.


This is far from a good study. It was far too short to make any meaningful conclusions.

Well, if the study is a lie, then we're ****ed. But if it's true, what more conclusive can you get?, almost nobody in the minoxidil group got results, while almost everybody got results in the minoxidil+dermarolling group. the results of those who got in the minox group were minimal at best, while the results in the minox+dermaroller were very, very substantial. I think we have a very clear conclusion here (as I said, if the study is real).



I would do it once a week though.

Well, that's what the study says, dermaroller just once a week.

Conpecia
08-11-2013, 07:51 PM
Tracy, he suffered from male pattern baldness. Look at his "donor area" and the sides. No hairloss. That's male pattern baldness. I anticipated that you would make comment 442 and changed it, but in retrospect there was no point. What you mean to say is his hairloss was not genetic but resulted from steroid use. I doubt it.

chimera
08-11-2013, 07:51 PM
Hair loss induced by drug use is not MPB.

You are wrong. steroids (testosterone) in those without male pattern baldness does not cause hair loss (well yeah, it can cause some hair loss, but it's pretty minimal). Steroids will take you hair only if you have a MPB predisposition.

Conpecia
08-11-2013, 07:54 PM
could it be that this dude was wounding and attributed his results to the increased lipogaine absorption? i'd love to think that...

i think my new stack is going to be:

lipogaine 2x per day, 6x per week
dermarolling 1x per week
regenepure dr 2x per week

**** i/c combo, i'm through with it.

LevonHelms
08-11-2013, 10:16 PM
http://www.hairlossfromsteroids.com

he most certainly was losing his hair.

Hey, did anyone else notice his tattoo was in a different spot in all his pics? In his before and after shots it's on his right pec, in the bottom pic it's on his left pec. What the hell is up with that?

Chromeo
08-11-2013, 10:20 PM
Hey, did anyone else notice his tattoo was in a different spot in all his pics? In his before and after shots it's on his right pec, in the bottom pic it's on his left pec. What the hell is up with that?

I'm guessing he took that bottom pic with a webcam. Those things quite often mirror the image around. The others are digicam pics, where the tat is displayed on the correct side.

TheSwingingGate
08-11-2013, 11:13 PM
Are you guys looking at the series of 3 pics of fuller hair on that site?

goingquick
08-11-2013, 11:17 PM
This seems like its worth giving a shot, given that it's cheap and only once a week. I've been on fin and minox for about 9 months now, and while I got good initial results there hasn't been any visible improvement in my hair for quite some time, so hopefully this will get things moving again.

Brock Landers
08-12-2013, 12:51 AM
Which dermaroller to buy, stainless steel or titanium? Does it make a difference? Can someone please help here!

john2399
08-12-2013, 01:09 AM
Which dermaroller to buy, stainless steel or titanium? Does it make a difference? Can someone please help here!

http://www.amazon.com/Microneedle-System-Roller-Medical-Stainless/dp/B004ATTGSY/ref=sr_1_2?s=beauty&ie=UTF8&qid=1376294918&sr=1-2&keywords=dermaroller

This is the one i bought..they say stainless steal is better.

HARIRI
08-12-2013, 01:12 AM
could it be that this dude was wounding and attributed his results to the increased lipogaine absorption? i'd love to think that...

i think my new stack is going to be:

lipogaine 2x per day, 6x per week
dermarolling 1x per week
regenepure dr 2x per week

**** i/c combo, i'm through with it.

I dont only love your name but also love your new treatment plan. Im almost going to do the same:-

My Hair Treatments:

1- Alpecin Double Effect Shampoo (Caffeine + Salicylic Acid) (Daily)

2- Regaine topical solution (Minoxidil 5%) (Once a day)

3- Nanogen Titanium Scalp roller (Once a week) - NEW

4- Life Extension Super Saw Palmetto capsules (Saw Palmetto standardized extract 85% + Beta Sitosterol) (Once a day)

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 05:21 AM
He had a transplant already.

Very questionable.




He had a transplant already.



Well, if the study is a lie, then...

I did not say the study was a lie. I said it was not a good study. It was far too short to draw any meaning conclusions. However, the idea is still very interesting.




..what more conclusive can you get?, almost nobody in the minoxidil group got results, while almost everybody got results in the minoxidil+dermarolling group.

The study was not long enough for that conclusion to have any real meaning. It needed to be a minimum of six months - but more preferably a year.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 05:24 AM
What you mean to say is his hairloss was not genetic but resulted from steroid use. I doubt it.

That is exactly what he said, not me. He said it was from steriod use. Not me. Hair loss from steriod use is not MPB. It is drug induced hair loss, which can resolve on it's own simply by discontinuing the drug use. Using him as an example is a very poor choice.

Artista
08-12-2013, 05:28 AM
Hi Tracy, How have you been? I haven't 'seen' you in a while, especially during the Live show.

simba
08-12-2013, 06:02 AM
That is exactly what he said, not me. He said it was from steriod use. Not me. Hair loss from steriod use is not MPB. It is drug induced hair loss, which can resolve on it's own simply by discontinuing the drug use. Using him as an example is a very poor choice.

Hair loss from steroid use only happens if the man in question was going to go bald anyway. Steroids lead to more Test which leads to DHT which leads to hairloss, his experience is relevant to us.

StayThick
08-12-2013, 06:11 AM
Hair loss from steroid use only happens if the man in question was going to go bald anyway. Steroids lead to more Test which leads to DHT which leads to hairloss, his experience is relevant to us.

This is correct. Losing hair from steroids is really a situation where a guy just expedites the MPB process, as he would have still lost hair in the future.

The dude in question still has the MPB gene, but chose to expedite the balding process by juicing.

bigentries
08-12-2013, 08:04 AM
Ok, I'm in

First week only minox and this sunday will start using the dermaroller

Already took baseline pics and will continue to document weekly

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 08:27 AM
I dont only love your name but also love your new treatment plan. Im almost going to do the same:-

My Hair Treatments:

1- Alpecin Double Effect Shampoo (Caffeine + Salicylic Acid) (Daily)

2- Regaine topical solution (Minoxidil 5%) (Once a day)

3- Nanogen Titanium Scalp roller (Once a week) - NEW

4- Life Extension Super Saw Palmetto capsules (Saw Palmetto standardized extract 85% + Beta Sitosterol) (Once a day)


yep looks good man. my only worry is that we won't be blocking enough dht. if we can find a dht blocker without sides we'll be set.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 08:29 AM
yep looks good man. my only worry is that we won't be blocking enough dht. if we can find a dht blocker without sides we'll be set.

CB!!

Man, if the dermarolling trial is legit and CB proves to be at least half as good as it is on paper, imagine the results when combined!

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 08:35 AM
Hair loss from steriod use is not MPB.

1. Hair loss in pattern form is by definition male pattern baldness. His hair loss was in pattern form. Therefore he has male pattern baldness. That argument ends right there.

2. Hair loss is merely accelerated by steroids. If he didn't have male pattern baldness to begin with he wouldn't have lost his hair simply because he added steroids. It's not like every guy who takes steroids loses his hair. Look at women who take steroids. Look at men who take steroids who are not susceptible to male pattern baldness. If I take steroids my existing disposition for male pattern baldness is accelerated because of increased testosterone (dht).

3. Regardless of any of this, he is still a good "choice" because dermarolling and minoxidil have apparently given him superior results to anything else. His words. Also, it's not like this is the one guy who is having results. We have the study. We have a few guys on here who are claiming results. We have a very, very convincing set of photographs. So this is sort of a lateral means of support to begin with and not worth debating any longer.

Let's get back on topic...

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 08:41 AM
CB!!

Man, if the dermarolling trial is legit and CB proves to be at least half as good as it is on paper, imagine the results when combined!

I agree man. But unfortunately we don't yet have the right vehicle for CB (as far as I know), and it's still not really proven by all of us in the forums. I figure it'll be around by next year, but I mean I need something literally RIGHT NOW. I can't have another month like I did in July. I'm losing ground fast.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 08:52 AM
I agree man. But unfortunately we don't yet have the right vehicle for CB (as far as I know), and it's still not really proven by all of us in the forums. I figure it'll be around by next year, but I mean I need something literally RIGHT NOW. I can't have another month like I did in July. I'm losing ground fast.

Did you try taking Fin once a week at 1mg?

StayThick
08-12-2013, 09:07 AM
I agree man. But unfortunately we don't yet have the right vehicle for CB (as far as I know), and it's still not really proven by all of us in the forums. I figure it'll be around by next year, but I mean I need something literally RIGHT NOW. I can't have another month like I did in July. I'm losing ground fast.

I'm currently in the same exact boat. All this hypothetical boobla can't help me right now. That's where my frustration stems from. The "potential" of CB won't help me unfortunately at the moment. My hair won't come back based on hope.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 12:27 PM
Hi Tracy, How have you been? I haven't 'seen' you in a while, especially during the Live show.

I got a new job and that along with band practice is keeping me from making the show. Joe's negativity was really getting to me anyways. I may still participate from time to time.

I tend to stay out of the men's section of this forum because stupid is contagious. Some of these guys need more help than anyone gave give them.

sosa56
08-12-2013, 01:03 PM
The study show that you need to clean the scalp with Betadine and Saline solution. I am doing that. Betadine and Saline solution is cheap and easy to apply. That way you prevent any possible infection or follicle inflammation.

Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 02:10 PM
Did you try taking Fin once a week at 1mg?

Yep. Same sides.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 02:10 PM
Yep. Same sides.

Damn :/

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 02:11 PM
Where do you get your betadine and saline solution, how much do you apply and does it not stain the scalp? Is anyone else using betadine and saline before needling?

I'd like some info on this as well.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 02:13 PM
Hopefully, once this dermaroller community trial comes to a close we'll all get positive results. After that, I'll make a 'Complete Dermaroller Guide' thread much like my RU58841 guide.

God damn it I want this to work. If it does, it should give other startups incentive to try harder to bring forth a hair loss treatment, one thats vastly superior to anything else... none of this 'baby steps' fvcking bullshit.

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 03:59 PM
has anybody noticed anything yet? it's been a couple weeks and fly had good results after 2 months... just hoping against hope..

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 04:48 PM
has anybody noticed anything yet? it's been a couple weeks and fly had good results after 2 months...

Going to inject a little bit of reality for you... If you have MPB and if anything is going to happen at all that is medically significant, it is going to be at least four to six months. No less. Those who have hair loss from other causes can see results much sooner - but true MPB takes longer because you are fighting against nature. Anyways, cosmetically significant results will take much longer than medically significant results - like 12 months.

the_dude78
08-12-2013, 05:06 PM
Going to inject a little bit of reality for you... If you have MPB and if anything is going to happen at all that is medically significant, it is going to be at least four to six months. No less. Those who have hair loss from other causes can see results much sooner - but true MPB takes longer because you are fighting against nature. Anyways, cosmetically significant results will take much longer than medically significant results - like 12 months.

So you're saying that PrettyFly is a fraud, or he doesn't have true MPB?

hellouser
08-12-2013, 05:54 PM
So you're saying that PrettyFly is a fraud, or he doesn't have true MPB?

Neither. She doesn't fully comprehend MPB nor the hair growth cycle.

Pay no attention to her.

baldnotbeautiful
08-12-2013, 06:13 PM
this forum was so great when tracy stopped posting here

john2399
08-12-2013, 06:32 PM
this forum was so great when tracy stopped posting here

thats cold lol

Conpecia
08-12-2013, 06:34 PM
Going to inject a little bit of reality for you... If you have MPB and if anything is going to happen at all that is medically significant, it is going to be at least four to six months. No less. Those who have hair loss from other causes can see results much sooner - but true MPB takes longer because you are fighting against nature. Anyways, cosmetically significant results will take much longer than medically significant results - like 12 months.

going to inject a little bit of humility:

http://i.imgur.com/xLkS7hK.jpg

seriously, the problem with blindly adhering to the propecia/minox/niz way of life and then bashing those who attempt to go beyond is that you don't really learn a lot about hair loss treatments or methods for observing subtle change, which of course leads to ridiculous, sweeping assumptions like the one above.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 06:44 PM
going to inject a little bit of humility:

http://i.imgur.com/xLkS7hK.jpg

seriously, the problem with blindly adhering to the propecia/minox/niz way of life and then bashing those who attempt to go beyond is that you don't really learn a lot about hair loss treatments or methods for observing subtle change, which of course leads to ridiculous, sweeping assumptions like the one above.

It also leads to a far more serious problem with the hair loss community:

Complacence.

This is possibly the greatest reason as to why in 2013 there is nothing better than finasteride and minoxidil which has lead us to our monumental failure in bringing an acceptable treatment or cure. You only have yourself to blame for the state of the hair loss community when all you do is shrug your shoulders and prop up finasteride.

Pentarou
08-12-2013, 07:03 PM
Hopefully, once this dermaroller community trial comes to a close we'll all get positive results. After that, I'll make a 'Complete Dermaroller Guide' thread much like my RU58841 guide.
That'll be awesome.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 08:10 PM
Neither. She doesn't fully comprehend MPB nor the hair growth cycle.

I understand both a whole better than you do. Paying attention to me is not a requirement. Nor is paying attention to you. Sadly, some of these guys actually do pay attention to you - and that is a very sad thing indeed.

The dermaroller is still an interesting idea though.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 08:11 PM
So you're saying that PrettyFly is a fraud, or he doesn't have true MPB?

One or the other.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 08:13 PM
I understand both a whole better than you do. Paying attention to me is not a requirement. Nor is paying attention to you. Sadly, some of these guys actually do pay attention to you - and that is a very sad thing indeed.

The dermaroller is still an interesting idea though.

Great contribution.

Now please leave.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 08:13 PM
this forum was so great when tracy stopped posting here

Cause you guys love to reject reality and anybody who threatens your fantacy with even the smallest dose of reality.

If you don't like what I write. Don't read it. Just move along and continue on with your fantasy.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 08:14 PM
idiotic nonsense.

I am rarely mistaken.

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 08:15 PM
Great contribution.

Now please leave.

Who do you think are you fool. Bite me.

goldbondmafia
08-12-2013, 08:21 PM
Anyone use the dermaroller with rogaine foam? Do you actually apply foam onto the roller or do you just use the roller on skin THEN apply the foam once the skin is broken?

I am awaiting mine in the mail and want to make sure I am doing it correctly

chimera
08-12-2013, 08:24 PM
C'mon guys, let's stay on topic


Anyone use the dermaroller with rogaine foam? Do you actually apply foam onto the roller or do you just use the roller on skin THEN apply the foam once the skin is broken?

I am awaiting mine in the mail and want to make sure I am doing it correctly

This is like the fiftieth time this is repeated in this thread: you do not use minoxidil the day you use the dermaroller, as this is not about absorption, this is all about the reelease of growth factors

Californication
08-12-2013, 08:27 PM
What is the tactic on rolling and applying a topical AA? Don't apply it that day for the same reasons as minoxidil (with RU at least, theoretically CB should be harmless)?

Tracy C
08-12-2013, 08:29 PM
I am awaiting mine in the mail and want to make sure I am doing it correctly

You use the roller once a week but do not use Minoxidil on the evening you use the roller. You use Minoxidil the rest of the week as normal.

It should not matter if you are using the liquid or the foam.

For what it's worth, I do think this is an interesting idea and I think I have figured out how to use the roller without getting my long hair tangled up in the roller, so I am going to give the dermaroller a try as well.

hellouser
08-12-2013, 08:30 PM
What is the tactic on rolling and applying a topical AA? Don't apply it that day for the same reasons as minoxidil (with RU at least, theoretically CB should be harmless)?

RU will probably go badly systemic with such easy penetration. I wouldn't use it. CB goes benign once in the bloodstream so it should be safe.

goldbondmafia
08-12-2013, 09:39 PM
You use the roller once a week but do not use Minoxidil on the evening you use the roller. You use Minoxidil the rest of the week as normal.

It should not matter if you are using the liquid or the foam.

For what it's worth, I do think this is an interesting idea and I think I have figured out how to use the roller without getting my long hair tangled up in the roller, so I am going to give the dermaroller a try as well.

I see so rogaine foam 2x per day then Sunday only use the foam in the morning, dermaroller at night then Monday morning back to the normal routine of 2x day?

HARIRI
08-12-2013, 10:39 PM
You use the roller once a week but do not use Minoxidil on the evening you use the roller. You use Minoxidil the rest of the week as normal.

It should not matter if you are using the liquid or the foam.

For what it's worth, I do think this is an interesting idea and I think I have figured out how to use the roller without getting my long hair tangled up in the roller, so I am going to give the dermaroller a try as well.

Thanks for the advice Tracy but may I know why we should not use Minoxidil after the dermaroller weekly session? :confused:

2nd question for how many minutes we should use the dermaroller if used once a week? some said 10 minutes, whats your thought about that?

john2399
08-12-2013, 11:04 PM
Thanks for the advice Tracy but may I know why we should not use Minoxidil after the dermaroller weekly session? :confused:

2nd question for how many minutes we should use the dermaroller if used once a week? some said 10 minutes, whats your thought about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTdVOvnBB4&feature=youtu.be

PrettyFly83
08-12-2013, 11:57 PM
One or the other.

I don't appreciate being called a fraud or or a fake suffering some other disease! I have healthy thick back and sides and have been loosing hair steadily for the last 9 years - classic MPB. My results may be unique but I have not hidden anything from this forum as I sincerely hope other people can experience the regrowth that I have.

KeepHoping
08-13-2013, 12:48 AM
I'm confused Tracy. Are you suggesting that this study is fabricated? What would be their incentive for faking a study? They aren't selling a product, they're just telling you to use existing treatments and use a dermaroller that you can find on amazon for super cheap. Doesn't seem like it would make sense to fabricate a study and make up that people had hair growth unless they were selling a product they themselves would profit from right?

Hicks
08-13-2013, 02:08 AM
If you don't like what I write. Don't read it. Just move along and continue on with your fantasy.

I wish the moderators would do their job. This forum is like the wild west of forums. It's really 50/50 if a thread stays on topic.

simba
08-13-2013, 05:58 AM
I wish we had an ignore button

the_dude78
08-13-2013, 06:12 AM
I got a new job and that along with band practice is keeping me from making the show. Joe's negativity was really getting to me anyways. I may still participate from time to time.

I tend to stay out of the men's section of this forum because stupid is contagious. Some of these guys need more help than anyone gave give them.

Tracy, this thread was doing just fine before you started commenting. If you feel the men's section is stupid and contagious, then please, please stay away. The tone in the thread was fine and friendly until you started attacking people, well, the entire forum really. Why all this bitterness? We are all skeptical when it comes to new treatments, and we have all been let down so many times, but at least we keep an open mind and keep hoping. Why can't you just accept that people have different opinions and just let it be and move on?